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derekgas 03-10-2008 15:00
Punishment in schools.
 
I thought someone would have mentioned the news report this morning about bringing back corporal punishment in schools, they said some teachers were for it, but more were against it, and referred to them as do gooders. Well I am not necessarily saying the cane should return, but I think something is needed, I truly believe that kids were better behaved when the cane threat was around, and there was much more respect and less violence, which to me rules out the saying that the cane teaches violent responses. Am going into hiding now and will be back when the bullets have passed. :p

Neil 03-10-2008 15:05
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
These days they give the bad kids an mp3 player if they are good for a few days.

jaysay 03-10-2008 15:57
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekgas (Post 637493)
I thought someone would have mentioned the news report this morning about bringing back corporal punishment in schools, they said some teachers were for it, but more were against it, and referred to them as do gooders. Well I am not necessarily saying the cane should return, but I think something is needed, I truly believe that kids were better behaved when the cane threat was around, and there was much more respect and less violence, which to me rules out the saying that the cane teaches violent responses. Am going into hiding now and will be back when the bullets have passed. :p
I think its been said before many times on here derek, by people from my age group that it didn't do use any harm. Since they did away with punishment in schools everything has gone belly up, there is no deterrent any more, kids can talk to teachers anyway they want, because they've got rights. When I was at school you earned your rights, and it held me in good stead for life after school, now its just a joke:(

K-P 03-10-2008 16:02
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
I guess people see what they want to see :)

While the cane (leather strap at my senior school) and other forms of punishment where about at schools... Skinheads where born. Football hooliganism started, city riots and many other things... To say the yoof of the day where better behaved is complete and utter rubbish....

polly 03-10-2008 16:06
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
The problem is that respect is learnt at home, long before children start school. This is where the problems begin, at home within the family unit. Teachers merely pick up the pieces of what society has landed us with

Myself, I have never felt the need to use physical violence on a pupil as it would in my opinion diminish my control not improve it.

I have often felt I needed to tell the parent(s) to get their act together and stop blaming everyone else

K-P 03-10-2008 16:07
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by polly (Post 637506)
The problem is that respect is learnt at home, long before children start school. This is where the problems begin, at home within the family unit. Teachers merely pick up the pieces of what society has landed us with

Myself, I have never felt the need to use physical violence on a pupil as it would in my opinion diminish my control not improve it.

I have often felt I needed to tell the parent(s) to get their act together and stop blaming everyone else

PERFECT ANSWER :)

derekgas 03-10-2008 16:09
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
So why kp, is knife crime, violent crime in general, property damage, theft etc much, much higher these days than ever before, skinheads were a minority, I dont see that they count, there will always be bad in society, but there is definately a reason why there is more crime since the cane was abolished, and many kids have respect for nothing, again, when the cane was around, kids had respect for that at the very least.

K-P 03-10-2008 16:17
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekgas (Post 637508)
So why kp, is knife crime, violent crime in general, property damage, theft etc much, much higher these days than ever before,
I have no idea... Why would I have.. I dont believe kids where better behaved when the cane was about. which is what you stated you believe. Why does that mean i would know the cause of more crime nowerdays...

Your surely not saying that as theres no cane now and knife crime is on the increase ... that must be the reason.. thats laughable.. a bit like..

All cats have 4 legs... my dog has 4 legs so it must be a cat....

cashman 03-10-2008 16:31
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by polly (Post 637506)
The problem is that respect is learnt at home, long before children start school. This is where the problems begin, at home within the family unit. Teachers merely pick up the pieces of what society has landed us with

Myself, I have never felt the need to use physical violence on a pupil as it would in my opinion diminish my control not improve it.

I have often felt I needed to tell the parent(s) to get their act together and stop blaming everyone else
i can see what yer saying polly n its fine in a perfect world, where ALL parents heed the warning, in the real world some couldn't give a stuff, sad but true, therefore respect n discipline should in my view be brought back into schools, whatever form is debatable, they could start,by "NOT" rewarding bad kids if they are good fer a few days/weeks, that is not acceptable.

K-P 03-10-2008 16:34
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
I agree not rewarding bad kids... But anyone who thinks that allowing teachers to hit children with a stick or a leather strap is the answer has had one too many cainings for there own good :)

Neil 03-10-2008 16:44
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
I agree with K-P and Polly. The cane may deter problems in school but would do nothing for the problems out of school.

Its parents that are the problem. Too many just don't care what their kids are up to.

Many kids don't know what is right and wrong - that is something that should be learnt at home not school.

These so called problem kids - and I believe they are in the minority in general need to be caught and punished. We don't want them on our streets so why are they?

onlyme 03-10-2008 17:04
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
I think that discipline belongs at home. I am not adverse to giving my son a tapped hand or leg (usually only when he has done something dangerous though, not for everyday naughtiness). But event though I trust his teachers 100%, if they were to lay their hands on him in a bad way, at very least it would cause bad feeling between myself and them.

My son seems to have respect for people and has RARELY (if ever) needed harsh discipline from anyone else that has looked after him. In fact, most people say that he behaves better when I am not there.

Is discipline something else that we are offloading onto an already overloaded education system??? Are we looking to not only feed the kids healthily, but discipline them as well, oh and a bit of learning may come in useful??? Or in 20 years time, are we just going to give birth and hand them straight over to a teacher to rear until us the parent can be trusted to look after them??

derekgas 03-10-2008 17:07
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
There are plenty of people who have stated on here that corporal punishment did them no harm, and they adhered to the rules in school and society in general because of it, so if the parents have seen this work, and many used the same methods until recent years, there has to be a link! The unruly (if that is the right word) parents, that dont care for thier children are, in my opinion, the ones who were born since corporal punishment was abolished, they dont respect much, hence the youngsters dont either.
I had teachers at school who, because of the fact they were a large physical presence, or had a very authoritative voice, had the children more or less behaving, the rest relied on punishment!

Caz 03-10-2008 17:23
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 637523)

Its parents that are the problem. Too many just don't care what their kids are up to.
Many kids don't know what is right and wrong - that is something that should be learnt at home not school.
These parents need to be held accountable, but how. Maybe we should tag em so they have to stay in and keep an eye on the kids, but wait, no the kids are outside causing problems, so that wouldn't work. :). Kerfew for parents and kids?

These so called problem kids - and I believe they are in the minority
Very true, it's rare the good ones get noticed, just the bad ones when they are causing a problem
Some how we have to get to the bottom of what's happening, but there is no easy answer is there? How many think tanks have there been about this issue, still no realistic answers.
But the problem isn't really just about today is it, it's several generations in families, going from bad to worse...

Rather than just locking them up, or whatever, why aren't the authorities getting to the bottom of why kids are getting out of line.
Not all bad kids are really bad, some just need a little help along the way.

The rewarding bad uns that are good for a while, ie, as moorhead does , that has always got my goat. Kids work hard all year because of who and what they are, only to see these others being rewarded.

You get praise for doing good, and scalded for being bad, is how I see it.

katex 03-10-2008 18:59
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
I don't particularly like the idea of caning being re-introduced into schools, as Polly has said, can negate a disciplinary skill by teachers without this.

You have all had the teacher that can keep order linked with good teaching, without resorting to physical punishment. A little more training in this area could be an advantage.

Only 2 out of 5 teachers voted to bring it back, mainly because a) there would be lots of objections/complaints from pupils/parents b)they didn't wish to carry out this punishment ... as regards the latter, would they have to receive training on the correct level of the 'whack' ?

I think, maybe, a good starter, would be to allow parents once more to give their children a slap for wrongdoings ... not many parents would overstep the mark here. Would stop lots of children from carrying on to more serious crimes ... does usually only start with cheek after all. Some children will never, ever respond to discipline in any form, but are in the minority, but the 'naughty step, taking away their materialistic items for a while' never works .. they know will get them back eventually.

shakermaker 03-10-2008 19:29
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Surely the point is to find more civilised and intelligent ways of commanding and teaching respect, not journey back to neandethal ways.

Bonnyboy 03-10-2008 19:46
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
I can’t see corporal punishment returning to schools, not in the light of the latest UN report - Children’s Rights not being met

AccyLass 03-10-2008 19:48
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
I don't think they should allow caining as with not allowing parents to "whack" their children, as SOME take it too far, so would SOME teachers, as their are SOME that are teaching for the wrong reasons and would hit out at petty things and so on

Therefore, they would need training, when to "whack", how to "whack", how hard to "whack"

Why not just train them in having more control, how to deter from a situation

As has been said, it ant ALL kids, it's a minority

The minority can be helped and punished in some other way surely

It's when it gets to be the majority that their is a big problem

Why let some complete stranger hit someone else's children but frown upon the childrens parents for the same action?

Lilly 03-10-2008 20:04
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Corporal punishment is a thing of the past along with the death penalty.....and like the death penalty it will never return.

We have gone too far the other way now, children have been given too much choice and their opinions are sought on everything.....good in some ways, not so good in others. :(

As several have said, naughty children are the result of poor parenting and I don't know how we can rectify that.

WillowTheWhisp 03-10-2008 20:12
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 637557)
I think, maybe, a good starter, would be to allow parents once more to give their children a slap for wrongdoings ... not many parents would overstep the mark here. Would stop lots of children from carrying on to more serious crimes ... does usually only start with cheek after all. Some children will never, ever respond to discipline in any form, but are in the minority, but the 'naughty step, taking away their materialistic items for a while' never works .. they know will get them back eventually.

I think the last few words of your post speak volumes. If a threatened punishment is not carried through then a child knows they can get away with murder. Equally if a material item is removed from them it doesn't bother them if they know they are going to get it back.

I told my girls that if they had something taken from them as a punishment they would nit get it back. I only ever had to do it once. They knew I was serious after the first time and didn't risk it again.

How many parents say "If you do that again I'll............... (whatever)" but then don't actually do the thing they say they will do. The child does 'it' again and the parent says "I mean it. Next time I'll ..............." and the child learns that the punishment never happens so they continue to misbehave.

I took a new doll from each of my daughters when they did something they had been specifically told not to do. My friend asked me when I would give the dolls back to them. I told her that I did not intend to return their dolls. They had both been warned and yet had continued to do the thing I had told them not to do. If I had given the dolls back eventually they would have got away with it. They learned that when I said a thing I meant it.

U think it's the same with the threat of corporal punishment. It wasn't so much teachers smacking children that led to discipline, but the fact that children knew that teachers could do.

West Ender 03-10-2008 20:26
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
When corporal punishment in schools was the norm there was a different attitude to discipline and punishment right across Society. The era when a teacher could cane a child was the era when the child would get a clout from his father for being badly behaved enough to be caned. It was when policemen walked the streets and thought nothing of administering a "thick ear" to young miscreants, that was when most parents would warn their offspring never to "bring the police to my door" - in other words never to bring shame on the family. It was when children were expected to behave properly and to be polite to adults and a cheeky child would be told off, in no uncertain terms, by any adult who witnessed it.

What we have now is children who "know their rights" and have no respect for anyone, least of all their parents who, very often, have no self-respect anyway. We have a culture where, if an adult sees a child misbehaving and tells him to stop, the parents are likely to be on the doorstep issuing threats. They don't give a damn if the police arrive at their door, will lie vigorously to "protect" their offspring and snigger at the policeman's back when he leaves.

Yes, I think there are some instances, in schools, where corporal punishment is warranted but in the present climate it isn't feasible.

WillowTheWhisp 03-10-2008 20:29
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
How do we get back the respect for authority?

Lilly 03-10-2008 20:38
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Ender (Post 637585)
When corporal punishment in schools was the norm there was a different attitude to discipline and punishment right across Society. The era when a teacher could cane a child was the era when the child would get a clout from his father for being badly behaved enough to be caned. It was when policemen walked the streets and thought nothing of administering a "thick ear" to young miscreants, that was when most parents would warn their offspring never to "bring the police to my door" - in other words never to bring shame on the family. It was when children were expected to behave properly and to be polite to adults and a cheeky child would be told off, in no uncertain terms, by any adult who witnessed it.

What we have now is children who "know their rights" and have no respect for anyone, least of all their parents who, very often, have no self-respect anyway. We have a culture where, if an adult sees a child misbehaving and tells him to stop, the parents are likely to be on the doorstep issuing threats. They don't give a damn if the police arrive at their door, will lie vigorously to "protect" their offspring and snigger at the policeman's back when he leaves.

Yes, I think there are some instances, in schools, where corporal punishment is warranted but in the present climate it isn't feasible.
Good post, Westender.

Sadly, all you say is true. :(

jaysay 04-10-2008 10:30
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Well in the 50s and 60s we didn't have all the problems with kids that we have today, so we have to think whats changed, there is just no discipline at all, teachers hands are tied as are he police, so we now have the situation where kids can run amok and no one an do a blind thing about it.

lancsdave 04-10-2008 10:40
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Ender (Post 637585)
What we have now is children who "know their rights" and have no respect for anyone, least of all their parents who, very often, have no self-respect anyway.
Agree with 99% of your post but this bit falls slightly short. Parents have also lost their rights.

flashy 04-10-2008 10:44
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
i neither disagree nor agree with corpral punishment in school, YES something should be done with unruly kids BUT i dont think the cain should NOT be brought back

things like boot camps or community work should be undertaken by unruly kids

Neil 04-10-2008 11:27
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashytart (Post 637715)
things like boot camps or community work should be undertaken by unruly kids
What do you do when the kids turn up for the community work and refuse to do anything?

churchman phil 04-10-2008 12:23
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 637579)
U think it's the same with the threat of corporal punishment. It wasn't so much teachers smacking children that led to discipline, but the fact that children knew that teachers could do.
I agree. The <i>threat</i> was enough to deter most bad behaviour. Obviously not all were deterred but it was a noticeable minority. I think the same thing about the death penalty too.
Westenders post(#21) is spot-on.

There are seven kids in my house and discipline has to be strictly adhered too for obvious reasons. You can't go soft on one and hard on another cos it gets noticed. Having their liberty taken away by grounding can be very effective. There is also a naughty step for the youngest. He knows it only ends when he apologises so he stays there as long as it takes - usually pretty quickly nowadays. :D
Parenting is the problem and imo it's also a lot to do with the young mums (and dads where present!) being too young to cope. Whilst some are helped by their parents a lot are kicked out into benefits and are offered no advice on how to manage the burden of children.
This brings us back to the education of our youngsters. Anyone else feel basic PRIDE is not taught anymore??

katex 04-10-2008 12:47
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchman phil (Post 637738)

. There is also a naughty step for the youngest. He knows it only ends when he apologises so he stays there as long as it takes - usually pretty quickly nowadays. :D
Problem with this is Churchman, getting a really defiant child to stay on the naughty step ... must respect your authority to start with.

churchman phil 04-10-2008 13:07
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Which again is down to parenting surely?? I believe all kids will be naughty at some point during their childhood - they are after all learning how to behave and this is inevitable. But I also believe that if they've been brought up with love and respect and pride then they'll respond in kind for the vast majority of time and will realise that it is the right way to behave.

katex 04-10-2008 13:16
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchman phil (Post 637746)
Which again is down to parenting surely?? I believe all kids will be naughty at some point during their childhood - they are after all learning how to behave and this is inevitable. But I also believe that if they've been brought up with love and respect and pride then they'll respond in kind for the vast majority of time and will realise that it is the right way to behave.
Of course, but some children respond better to a short sharp slap.

derekgas 04-10-2008 16:17
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
In my opinion Katex, most children do respond to a short sharp smack of the hand or leg, I was told that even naughty steps and corners are seen as child abuse these days!

flashy 04-10-2008 16:22
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 637723)
What do you do when the kids turn up for the community work and refuse to do anything?

send them to boot camp :D

derekgas 04-10-2008 16:28
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Borstal was also done away with wasnt it? Never knew a kid that went to borstal and bragged about it, or wanted a return visit!

flashy 04-10-2008 16:48
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
My dad went to an 'approve skoo' as he calls it, in Warrington

Neil 05-10-2008 07:26
Re: Punishment in schools.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by katex (Post 637743)
Problem with this is Churchman, getting a really defiant child to stay on the naughty step ... must respect your authority to start with.
You have to start them young


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