The EU gravy train
 

The EU gravy train makes our UK MPs look angelic:eek:
Secret report reveals how MEPs make millions - Times Online
The corruption revealed in this Times article is mindboggling

I am dissatisfied with the way that our membership of the EU has affected life in this country.
There are no doubt some here who are for being in, and some who think we should get out.
Please can we discuss here the benefits and disadvantages of both,
and what difficulties we will have if we opt out.
I have been pro Europe in the past but now have serious doubts about it.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

i used to be pro europe but i am set against it now when any criminal can come into the uk without been vetted and live next door to you .we should sort out our own country out without inviting any more criminals from europe we have enough of our own and the child benefit scandal has just been brushed under the carpet....

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Although I was too young to vote when there last was a referendum, still being at Primary school, I wouldn't have voted to join.

What was sold as an economic union, or a Common Market as it was formerly called, is now something very different, whose aim seem to be a United States of Europe, which I very much oppose.

Like her or loath her at least Maggie stood up for this country against the European bureaucrats, and got aour unfairly weighted contribution reduced. No one seems to be standing out corner in Brussels nowadays, certainly not the motley group of political has beens, who seem to make up the largest proportion of out representatives in the European Parliament.

The very term 'European Parliament' sound like an anathema to me, because the British public were never asked if that is what they wanted.

If we were to have another referendum, as was promised but not honoured by the government, I'd vote out, for everything other than the most simple of economic ties.

With countries like Turkey set to join, the situation will only get worse for those countries who end up being the main contributors.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I wrote to an MEP a few months ago and never got a reply.
From what I understand about how the EU parliament works, it is the non-elected beaurocrats who make the rules and the MEPs just vote on whether to accept them.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

i always was in favour of the E.U. back in the day, thought we should have gone fully in not part way right from the start, did not envisage the almighty "cock ups" that would occur, wether that is cos we never became fully into it from day one, is summat we will never know.:confused: but if we did get the referendum "Labour" promised i would now vote OUT.:( must dash,just seen a pig fly by the window.:rolleyes:

Re: The EU gravy train
 

EU membership is the worst thing that has ever happened to this country. After fighting against countless would-be invaders for a thousand years, the politicians who rule us have meekly surrendered our sovereignty to, as Margaret quite rightly says, a bunch of non-elected bureaucrats in Brussels. The whole bloated EU organisation is so corrupt and riddled with dubious practices that its own auditors have refused to sign the accounts off for 12 years running.

I don't want the referendum that this government promised over the Lisbon Treaty - a promise which it has now blatantly broken because it's frightened of losing it. I want a referendum on the whole question of membership of the EU itself. Of course, we won't get one because all three parties are in favour of the EU and they can't risk the vote going against them. Then they wonder why we hold them in such contempt! :rolleyes:

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Just over 2 years ago the Liberals were saying we should have a referendum about whether to stay in or get out
BBC NEWS | Politics | Lib Dems call for EU referendum
I don't know their policy now - anybody know?

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Reading that story, it would seem that it's the personal opinion of the previous leader of the Lib/Dems. Would doubt that the faceless nonentity...what's-his-name...currently leading the Lib/Dems would have the bottle to do it.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I've always been of the opinion from day 1 of this so called club, we should never have joined, fatty whitelaw should have been hanged.
The Germans have never been able to subdue us on the battlefield, we wiped the bums and changed the nappies of the frogs in two world wars, for which they've never forgiven us.
So the frogs and the jerry's decided they could beat us in their boardroom and negotiating palaces, and they are.

The sooner were are out the better, we had a far bigger market in the Commonwealth, than we've ever had in europe, and we did'nt have to do any translating, every body spoke English.

Retlaw.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Doubt very much if they know.:rolleyes:

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I received my EU postal ballot form today, so I have been digging for info about how the EU operates.

I have found stuff that our wonderful BBC:rolleyes: has never reported

I am posting videos because I don't think you want to wade through beaurocratic mumbo jumbo stuff (but you may decide to look for yourself when you have seen these)

I do not tell you how to vote
Look, read and decide.
Knowledge is power, ignorance is what they are relying on.

YouTube - An alternative view of the European Union
YouTube - The last days of democracy?
YouTube - Creeping EU Totalitarianism
YouTube - Nigel Farage warns of euro meltdown
YouTube - Nigel Farage on who's who in the EU commission
YouTube - Must watch TV! - The clip the EU doesn't want you to see

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Indeed you're right. Which means when you 'vote' in the European elections, you are voting for a candidate that can have no mandate. They cannot set out a stall and say, 'this is what we will do in Europe', as they are not the initiators of legislation.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

here is the link to the page where you can vote for having a referendum
x09.eu/

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Thanks for the link Margaret

Re: The EU gravy train
 

No, and you won't find the BBC telling us the truth about the EU. Same goes for the mainstream political parties. The Tories like to pretend that we can stay in the EU and still remain independent, while Lab and the Lib-Dems simply smear any Eurosceptics as racist, xenophobic etc.

In fact, the EU is the greatest con trick ever perpetrated on this country. It is irredeemably corrupt, ruinously wasteful and profoundly undemocratic in both its operation (MEPs are powerless pawns) and theory (the Irish have to be made to vote again until they get it right).

The myth that the Lisbon Treaty is not a European constitution is yet another lie from this government to file alongside weapons of mass destruction and all the others.

When you vote next week, be aware that if you vote Lab/Con/Lib-Dem, you are effectively voting for the end of the UK as an independent democracy. The choice is yours...

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I was against joining Europe right from the start. There was no referendum on whether we should or should not join, that vote came a few years later on whether we should leave. The majority of the electorate was brainwashed into believing it would be too expensive and too difficult to leave and, so, missed the opportunity to get out more or less unscaithed.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

The thing is West Ender, the beast we have today is far different than what we had back in the 70s, the concept of the Common Market was beneficial to the country back then, but today its an out of control money wasting machine:(

Re: The EU gravy train
 

The major parties are so totally out of touch with the general population on this issue that this is the situation you get now - Tories like Jaysay contradict their own party policy (try asking the boy David if the EU is an "out of control, money-wasting machine"), while Labourites prefer to avoid the subject altogether!

Re: The EU gravy train
 

This happens to be the stage on the Mayan calendar when
Power becomes subservient to Ethics
..now isn't that good news then :D

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Unlike lots of politically involved people Wynonie, I have always looked at things from my prospective and not the Party Angle and there are times I have disagreed with the official party line, I'm quite capable of looking at things from my own point of view and not the party line, always have and always will

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Glad to hear it, mate. I would think there's lots of Tory and Labour party members who harbour similar feelings towards the EU. Unfortunately, most of them won't come out and say it!

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I'm my own man Wynonie always have been and will never change, well its a bit late now anyway:rolleyes:

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I agree Europe has changed, Jaysay, but quite a lot of us realised the implications for the future and, to be honest, I don't think there was much benefit in the concept of the Common Market. France and Germany were determined, even then, that Britain would do less well out of the deal than they did. We should have stayed with our Commonwealth and kept our sovereignty.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Picking up on the "major parties" thing .... I presume that the UKIP and the BNP are for opting out of the EU. There seems to be strong feeling against it on here. How will the antipathy to the EU translate into votes for the fringe parties and against the mainstream parties? And an observation: The option of drawing closer to North America has been there ever since the early twentieth century ... Europe seems to be more fragmented than ever ... can an EU parliament ease the tensions caused by the state of the world economy? Or will economic and nationalistic tensions pull apart what seems from this side of the pond to be a jerry built structure? The economies of North America will recover. Might it not be in the better interests of GB to draw closer to countries with which it already has a very special relationship (Mexico can be dealt with later;)). It's still within living memory for many that in 1944 the beaches at Normandy were stormed by armies from the US, Canada, and Britain. If it weren't for the Anglo-American connection back in those days, there wouldn't be a Europe for chrissake. Here endeth the "it's not really any of my business rant".;):D

Re: The EU gravy train
 

there's always been a strong anti EU attitude in Britian...but then over the past few years there has also been a growing resentment of the USA...you don't have to look to hard to find posts on here calling Blair a "poodle" of Bush and blaming both for the war in Iraq...the days of the USA,Canada and Britian storming the beaches in Normandy are long gone...it's more about economics...and I don't like the sound of the USA running the world economy!
ps(Eric..you itching for another war?) :D

Re: The EU gravy train
 

When it was set up, just for trade purposes, the concept was sound, but back in the seventies we never realised just what an out of control juggernaut it would become some forty years later. Plus we have to remember that the ordinary rank and file weren't as well informed then as they are now, people are far more aware what is going on in the world because of the explosion of media outlets which bring us facts 24/7

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Many 'media outlets' are under government control, so it is prudent NOT to believe all you are told.

The only way to be sure of accessing the truth is by a worldwide search for news, and if a news item appears in 2 different countries, the chances are it is true.
I have seen some items reported, and when I have returned for a 2nd look, the item has been removed.

Trust your instincts

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Media outlets was meant as a wide spread angle Margaret, not just newspapers, TV and Radio, and I'm not to sure whether the Government have as much control over these outlets as you think, but I have to agree that, by doing your own research on line you get a more balanced view

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Nah, not itchin' for another war; there's no shortage of them going on right now ... and, by the way, Bush has gone; there has been a change in America since Obama took over, maybe not as radical as some would wish (but more radical than others feared) ... the idea of the US, Canada, and Britain storming beaches may seem anachronistic, but I think it shows the natural affinity of what Churchill called the "English speaking peoples." If there is to be true economic co-operation, there has to be a stronger foundation than temporary self-interest. I'm just offering the opinion that Britain has more in common with her friends in the west than she has with Europe ...

It is possible to argue that Britain is not really European at all; throughout history Britain has aligned herself with European powers only to further her own power, or protect it. Could be the insularity thing ... Anyhow, I think I've said more than enough about something which doesn't affect me all that much.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

A private members bill to get us out of the EU has been submitted to parliament.
Here it is -

http://www.publications.parliament.u...50/2009050.pdf

Whichever MP of whichever party has submitted it, he deserves a pat on the back, and all the luck in the world.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I'll subscribe to that too

Re: The EU gravy train
 

So will I. Unfortunately it hasn't got a snowball in hell's chance of getting through, because the vast majority of MPs from all parties want us to stay in the EU.

Incidentally, Jaysay, good to see you're willing to stand up and be counted, despite the fact that you're going against official Tory policy.

Could the Accyweb Labour party members tell us where they stand on this?

Just curious... ;)

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Lord Willoughby de Broke - was a Conservative Peer but changed to UKIP in 2007.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

:D but you would still vote Tory even if you disagreed with everything they proposed ;)..lets get the record straight, it was a Tory government that took us into the EU...the only referendom ever given to the British people was by a Labour government... the Tories don't like to mention the facts!

Re: The EU gravy train
 

OK, then, Mancie, could the present government please continue their proud record of consultative democracy by giving us the referendum they promised us on the European Constitution/Lisbon Treaty? :rolleyes:

Re: The EU gravy train
 

And lets not forget the referendum was promised on the European constitution in Labours 2005 election manifesto but has been denied the British public, seems Mancie has more than a selective memory when it comes to his own oiks at Westminster:p

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Ah you beat me to it Wynonie, but you have to make allowances for Mancie:D

Re: The EU gravy train
 

The EU actually have quite a tight policy on immigration. It's completely misinformed to think that the EU allows criminals to move freely between member states. The only people given any real right in the EU to move around are 'workers', their families and students, and these are subject to restrictions as well.

Most people just don't understand how the EU works, and the Europa website is a running joke with students like me who enjoy EU law, because it is the most inconvenient website to navigate even when you know exactly what you are looking for. Most of the time the search function won't even bring up specific documents that I am looking for so to access them I have to type the same thing into google and 'Europa' to find it. It's horrendous from my point of view so god help anyone who is searching information about something vague that they don't have much information about.

The EU lacks transparency in a lot of senses. One of the good things about the EU is that is does believe in subsidiarity, and so if an issue really is better dealt with by national parliaments and not the EU, then it is the national parliaments who will deal with it.

I'm very pro-EU, but before I had studied it I hadn't really given it much thought. It's a body which needs to interact more with it's national member states' citizens, and probably more so now in our case what with the BNP having seats, who represent very few people in reality.

I think politics in general fails people because it doesn't listen to what people say. Most of the time though, people just criticise without actually offering any real suggestions for change, so the people are probably just as much to blame as the politicians.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

A classic Europhile technique - brand the Eurosceptics as xenophobic racists, then we don't have to bother about all the inconvenient realities of the EU superstate...like the fact that its own auditors have refused to sign its accounts off for how many years now?...is it 14?

Like the fact that the EU has total and utter contempt for democracy. So much so that they've refused to give the people of its member states a vote on the Lisbon Treaty. Oh sorry, the Irish are getting a vote, but they got it wrong first time, so they've got to vote again in the hope that they "get it right".

As for "subsidiarity", here's a prime example - When this country brought the Merchant Shipping Act into force in an attempt to curb the large, unpoliced Spanish fishing fleet from buying up our quotas and depleting our dwindling fish stocks, the European Court of Justice decided that the Act was illegal. Not only did we have to give the Spanish free access to our territorial waters, we also had to pay them 150m euros compensation! Naturally, our gutless government meekly complied with all this, but so much for "subsidiarity"!

Still, fair play to you, Blazey. At least you're prepared to come on here and speak up for the EU. Quite a contrast to the Labour party members on here who, as they support the government, presumably support the EU, yet avoid this issue like the plague!

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Can't argue with you on that..I am bias and don't pretend to be otherwise..unlike some people! :rolleyes:

Re: The EU gravy train
 

seems even the German courts have doubts about the validity of the 'Lisbon treaty'

Yellow Light from Constitutional Court: Germany Cannot Ratify Lisbon -- Yet - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I never called anyone a racist Jaysay, what I said was that it is even MORE important these days to ensure you have your say, because we're being represented by a party that is linked with racist attacks and insensitive opinions on immigration, rape and everything else controversial they decide to 'address'. When you consider that the number of voters is nowhere near as much as it could be in this country, therefore most people aren't having their say, I think people should make more of an effort to discuss these things in future rather than leave it to other people and hope for the best.

The EU is a step towards a better tomorrow in my opinion. It isn't perfect, but then we weren't exactly in a perfect situation before we joined the EU either. I'm not saying I agree with all the EU's policies, including those on free movement of people, because that would be a lie, but I am certainly saying that I back it.

And I'm not a member of a political party any more.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Well the European Union as it stands is not a democratic body. It's parliament does not initiate policy - therefore when candidates stand they can have no mandate to fight for. The unelected segments of the EU initiate policy that respective nations are bound to.

We need to co-operate and allow free trade, this benefits everyone. It's a shame the EU doesn't free up trade with Africa and other nations who are desperate to trade with us. Their economies would develop much faster if this was the case, but the EU is a roadblock. What we currently have is a Union that believes in a political, federal Europe. For which I do not subscribe.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I don't see why people get so worked up about democracy. If people aren't willing to even vote then the system in practice cannot be considered democratic anyway.

If a 40% electorate is democratic, then I think we should be a bit more concerned about what it is exactly that we think we have right now.

I've always held the opinion that those with the expertise in areas should be the ones to make educated, well reasoned decisions. Not people who get all their information from the Daily Express.

Maybe, just maybe, we give people more liberty and choice than they should be credited.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

If peoples vote doesn't count it makes people apathetic. The EU make sure it doesn't count - no mandate, no policy initiation for the MEP's we can elect. The Irish vote no on the Lisbon Treaty, so they ask them to vote again - on the same treaty.

We elect politicians to represent us, of course we should be given the choice and liberty to do that.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I disagree. If it was compulsory to vote, even if just to opt out, then it would be democratic. The fact that we are represented by the choice of half the population is in no way democratic.

As for Europe, most people have no idea about European politics and seem to ASSUME things more than anything. Until people are better educated about political issues, I would rather that people who had no idea just didn't vote at all rather than blind voting.

Students were encouraged to blind vote at University for the sake of trying to ensure the BNP didn't get any seats. I asked our student union whether this was better than them genuinely choosing who they thought best represented them and our president said yes. If that is what this democratic system has come to then I'd rather we didn't have the vote at all.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Yes it is democratic because every single person has the chance to vote for any candidate they wish, stand as a candidate or even object to every candidate and spoil their vote. Their candidate and party has a manifesto which they can enact if given the chance.

How would you define better educated? If they agree with you? That's normally what EU federalists mean when they say people don't understand the issues. I think people do understand a very important issue - we should govern our own country by taking back powers from Europe.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

It doesn't matter if they 'agree' with me or not, and when have I ever used the word 'federalist' about myself?

A lot of people I know don't even know how the EU works, many don't even know how it is constructed.

In fact, forgive me for saying this Andrew but even you have asked me about the powers of different bodies in the EU before, this academic year, and now here you are trying to persuade me that people know enough about the EU to make judgement on it?

Give me a break. It's pathetic.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

Please do tell us that you don't believe in European Federalism then.

Do tell us why people would change their mind about the EU making decisions for us rather than our own national government, if only they were to be as educated as yourself on the subject.

Re: The EU gravy train
 

I didn't say I was educated enough to vote. I didn't say I had even voted.

The EU is considered 'indirectly democratic', in other words national governments elect their own representatives themselves after they are presumably democratically elected by us.

As far as 'democracy' goes, I don't believe it exists nationally or in the EU, so I can't argue that for you. Like I said, everyone should vote or nobody. It shouldn't be a choice, but a responsiblity as a member of a society to shape that society.

I believe people abuse their liberties as much as they state their claim on them. I believe people don't know what to choose for because they are not informed enough by both Europe and by national government. I place more blame on national governments for this as they have more direct communication with the public of their national state.

I believe that the people should be pushed for an opinion, but we can only expect such a thing when they are given all of the information. I believe the politicians of this country have a duty to inform people about their activities, intentions and progress... and if they did do this then government would probably be more respected, efficient and successful.

I am not the one who is here to educate people. My opinion is that politicians should be engaging the public to care about their future, instead of fear for it as they are often left in the dark. Their engagement should provide the 'bones' of the issues, which people will then go on to fill with the 'muscle', and indeed reverse this (share their opinions [the bones] which the government then build onto and add the muscle) so that we are left with an interactive body that is comprised of all people, both politician and your typical Tom, Dick and Harry down the pub or in the bus queue discussing the latest political news.

I'm not a politician, I'm one of the ordinary Tom, Dick and Harry's who is trying to educate themselves about the systems. I'm working on my own muscle and I'm not here to provide the bones for everyone else who is being neglected and ignored by their representation. That is the responsibility of those who claim their expenses in return for that service.