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education fees
It's not the Goverment but the universities that are now calling for cash..seems the fox hunting brigade are getting ragged up because of the influx of common oiks..they don't think they should pay for their education but the rest of us should do!
BBC NEWS | Education | Universities push for higher fees |
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Well I wouldn't say the government are not in favour. We all know it's Labour who abolished free education at University.
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from my experience of Uni there was a vast majority of 'normal' hard working people there than the people you seem to be suggesting inhabit these places. Perhaps you should actually look into things before passing uninformed comments.
as Andrew also said, it was Labour that has abolished free education making it harder for 'normal' working class people to go(unless you go to Scotland, once again England is the poor relation). |
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I did not go to University. I did A levels but did not do very very well in them so managed to get on a very good old school type apprenticeship.
Several people I went to school with did go to University and when I look around friends reunited etc I find many are in good job all over the world. I also know that many did not find jobs suited to their level of education after completing degrees. We here mentioned on here a lot that immigrant workers are needed to fill certain jobs that's Brits don't want to do. I can't help wondering if this is because we push more people into doing degrees than we have jobs for degree educated people. What happens is that you need to have a better degree to get the few jobs that are out there. You then end up with the rest of the people with degrees working in jobs where they are over qualified. Some employees wont touch these people as they see them as only wanting the job as a stand in until they find something better for them. We have a shortage of young skilled people in this country. By skilled I mean proper skills like electrical, mechanical, plumbers, joiner etc. That is why we have so many immigrants taking these jobs. We need to stop pushing people into obtaining average/poor degrees and instead encourage companies to take on proper apprentices. All the companies I have worked for used to have apprentice engineers, none of them do now. We are not training people to take over when the current workforce retire. I found it very hard to employ electrical breakdown/maintenance engineers that were any good last time I was doing interviewing. What I see happening is that people appear to have moved up the rung leaving no one at the bottom of the ladder. This in effect means that many people are working higher than their abilities would have allowed them a few years ago. This has a bad effect on companies. I work as an engineers on maintenance/breakdown/improvement of production machinery so I am speaking from my background point of view. I have worked with people who were not good enough for the job they were doing, both from an ability and attitude aspect. These people end up being carried by their colleagues which is good for no one. Education and careers advice should be targeted and focussed on the individual, not just you will go to Uni. My secondary school, Clitheroe Royal Grammar School expected everyone to go on to Uni, I could see then that was wrong and did not suit everyone. It did not suit me and I did not do it, I had school friends who went down the Uni road and IMHO wasted there time. Basically the way I see it is we need to educate people to the correct level but more importantly the correct education for what is right for them at that time in their life. I believe educational requirements change as you go through life. I could probably get a job higher up the tree if I did a degree or something now - as it is I don't want to. I am currently happy at the level I am at, I have been lower and I have also been higher. I have never stopped learning all my life for both my work and personal enjoyment. University is not the be all and end all of education and people should stop seeing it as that. Oops that twoddle ended up being longer than I expected, sorry for those that fell asleep reading it. |
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Some jobs do require a degree. These include jobs in the NHS and Industry. I went to QEGS and then onto University, my friend went to Todmoreden High School & then onto University. Neither of us come from 'well off families' but we both knew a good degree would mean a better future. Degrees of anykind are not there for just the rich, if you have the drive and its what you want, then most people can get a proper degree. My this i mean somthing like an LLB or MEng.
Student loans are repaid based on what you earn and to be honest, there very reasonable. I think i repay £25.00 a month. I found in my time at university there were very few of the 'fox hunting brigade' there, who ever these people may be lol So often people resent the rich, instead of just working away and getting to a position where they can afford not to care what people think or have the confidence not to resent other peoples success and the advantages an education can have. |
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Excellent post Neil......I would give you some Karma, but it won't allow me to....I have to spread it around.
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I think you're right Neil.
I think the only flaw in the thinking is aspiration. Don't we all want the best for our children and don't we all want them to achieve as much as they are capable of. If we have a bright child then naturally, we want them to have as many career options open to them as possible and further education is one way to open doors later on. I don't have a degree and I've done just fine out of it (I went to art college to do an HND). I also agree with the point about maturity. Some people are capable of degrees but really not suited to the university lifestyle. That's why it's important for places like Acc and Rossendale College to offer vocational degrees so that people can still get the education but stay local if it suits. |
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Great long winded :rolleyes: post Neil. I have two sons, one who is at clitheroe grammar 6th form and aiming for uni and that is why he went to that 6th form and my other son is due to do his GCSE's this year but is having interviews over the coming weeks for an electrical apprenticeship
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i think its free up here
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Gayle, you are right about us wanting better for our children, but we have to recognise that not all children are academically gifted, and we have to imbue them with the value of their contribution to society and work in whatever capacity pleases and interests them.
It seems to me that what we are saying, (without actually saying it in words) is that you cannot be a valid memeber of society unless you have been to Uni. Well I have been to the university of life.....it is one where a cap and gown is unnecessary, but you have free rein to exercise your brain in whatever field of work you find interesting(and of course, will pay the bills)....in this university you never actually graduate, because there is always something new and interesting to learn. That is. of course, while you are still interested in learning. Learning is a lifelong thing. We need to let our children know that...and that if they choose a career emptying the bins(but they are happy doing that) then that is OK. |
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To illustrate this point........I worked with a very capable Doctor......capable, but miserable. His family members were all Doctors(one of them was a very eminent and fiery Consultant)....this young man had been coerced into a career in medicine because that was what those in his family did....Medicine!
All this young man wanted to be was........a postman! He was on the brink of giving up his medical career when his family decided he should go on a break to France to 'think through' his decision. He never came back. He was killed in a motobike accident, so he never got to be a postman after all. |
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A sensible and common-sense approach Gayle.
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To qualify or to Practice in certain fields you need a degree, (to prove you took the test), let's be honest, some people with such qualifications are a danger to themselves and all that they meet. I hope, that a Doctor with various initials after his/her name, whether he's a Professor, a Doctor or a Mr. hasn't just scraped through because his parents paid for this career choice. I want someone that really, really, despite the hardships, has made it to their chosen vocation. |
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I have a nephew who was cajoled into medical school. When I last met him he said he was specialising in anaesthetics because he prefer his patients unconcious |
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I have an honours degree, and it did ultimately give me access to a career I loved. However I know plenty of people who achieved similar success by starting on the shop floor, so to speak, and did better than those who spent three or four years doing a degree. In theory I think the old means tested maintenance grants were fairer than the new student loan system, in that it allowed more people, from differing backgrounds, greater access to further education. It's okay starting your working life with a £25,000 debt if you're destined for a well paid job in the City, but it must put people off other careers, teaching for example, which aren't as well paid. Further education isn't for everyone, nor should it be, but it should be accessible to those who want it, irrespective of how well off your parents are. The student loan scheme does allow that, but I think the old maintenance grant scheme allowed a more inclusive for all access to further education, and I think the government were wrong to scrap the grant system. |
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I genuinely believe University education is too open to just anyone. The problem is mostly that there are too many low quality universities offering some pretty poor quality degrees, some of which aren't really even necessary at degree level because too much focus has been put on paper-based qualifications and not enough attention on actual transferable skills.
I go to University with many people who believe a degree is enough to get them a graduate job. The problem is obviously that everyone can get a degree these days and the average classification of degree is a 2.1 Companies obviously value a 2.1 in subjects more than others, most employers prefer a 2.1 and a well-rounded student than someone with just a 1st class degree and there are all sorts of other factors taken into account by them that are entirely ignored by a lot of students. Many of my friends comment on my extremely busy schedule but they are all pretty certain that I'll end up in a decent paid graduate job at the end of it all, whereas there are students much more academically stronger than me who are really worried about their futures. Opening education up to everyone has pretty much created a false sense of security and basically a lot of lazy students who live as easily as they can til they are forced to work, most often than not in ordinary jobs rather than the better paid graduate jobs. I'm lucky enough to have the drive to do the extra-curricular work though admittedly I could work harder for my actual degree and push up my marks, but I speak to big employers everyday so I know what they want, and I make it my aim to make sure I have that information. Sadly many people don't and they drag the quality of everyones degrees down with them and so many universities get some pretty talented students that have ability to succeed in careers but may not be particularly academically talented or whatever, but they're just constantly overshadowed by the low quality students who go just to avoid real life. And even half the people on accyweb have commented on how out of touch students like me and Andrew are with real life so the stereotype must have developed from somewhere and it certainly isn't the traditional view of university students. University did need to be reformed but it was a bad idea opening it up to everyone through tuition fees and creating a load of useless degrees in my opinion and now we all pay for that by having to work twice as hard just to overcome some of the problems it has created. |
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Where as I for example have to fork out £10,000 (on average) to pay for my course after university and then support myself somehow. Some law students get training contracts with large firms who can afford to pay these costs but these are limited. Shame how you can get more support for wanting to be a teacher but if you want to be a lawyer you still have to compete against the old boys... |
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There are DEFINITELY bursaries available because a lot of my friends are doing it because of that incentive. I personally see teaching as a profession I would only do after working in a more... experience-developing role in that area, as I think there are enough low quality teachers as it is and I don't think its right that I teach something I've only just learnt myself. Unless its high school level and lower. How can you pass on experience when you have none? Some of my best lecturers at University have a Phd or have been/are practising lawyers. Those that wanted to be lawyers but failed have become lecturers as a last resort and aren't particularly good. The incentive at Lancaster is that you can lecture whilst studying for your Phd... therefore bringing in a reasonable income and being able to get further qualifications... I disagree with it but at least they have genuine interest in academia where failed lawyers becoming lecturers because it's the 'next best thing' is a bit... well... you can put a word to that. |
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Perhaps because she read chemistry, and didn't know she'd go into teaching afterwards, had something to do with it. |
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Sadly I don't know many very intelligent people that want to be teachers, though I know some amazingly creative people who want to be art teachers and things like that, for kids. I think that is fantastic. I think all the quality teachers stick to teaching in quality establishments unless they're the type who think they can really change the world and stuff, just to be general, obviously not the world but you know, the whole education system and attitudes and things like that. |
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'They are among an army of graduates emerging from the education system who face the toughest employment prospects for years as the recession deepens. The government, having encouraged youngsters into higher education that has saddled many with large debts, is deeply worried. Graduate numbers are hitting a record high just as the number of jobs is shrinking.'
Labour's graduates aren't getting jobs - Times Online Probably made even harder since the recession. |
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Many top companies are recruiting MORE people, just depends on the industry.
What is good about the armed forces in particular, though I'm not sure if this is from this thread or the other so I might be crossing threads here, is that they often pay for further education prospects to attract the more educated youth. This isn't often the focus of the talks delivered to the high school students, when they tend to target the ones who are likely to not get many or particularly good GCSEs. Education needs full reform I think but I think if I was left to reform it I would have to crack down on both traditional and modern trends and put emphasis on proving more than just an ability to churn out information and more than an ability to pay for the education, because that isn't getting the best out people, at least not at University level. My tuition fees are rising nicely with inflation. £3225 next year I believe. |
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I once worked for an architect that was a complete idiot,after several minutes of discussion with the main contractor I asked what imbecile had designed the building.
A voice from the back said I did and there are 9 letters after my name. I replied,well there are 4 missing.:rolleyes: |
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Just getting back to the debt .. my son, now 26 years, has still a debt of £11,000 from the government loans.
You will not be obliged to pay anything until you are earning over £15,000 per year, and then charged at 9% of the balance of your income. Will take a long time to pay off, but the interest now being charged is easier of course. Is taken out from your wage, so he does not miss it. Still if the fees go up, this will mean a longer time to clear this debt .. probably 25 years average. The problem comes if you wish to take a Master's Degree ... no help here. Have to find the tuition fees out of your own pocket, (was £2,000) and no loan for housing (probably why students taking a Phd as Blazey explained are now teaching to pay for this). He was lucky, had a kind relative benefactor and, as my income had dropped substantially at this stage, did get a grant of about £700 plus. He luckily did find a job 3 days a week with a company that he is now employed with which helped with living subsistence; the company actually promoted themselves at the university, hard going for him, but paying out now. This is just my case of course. |
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It was just in today's news that vice-chancellors are pushing for university fees above and beyond the £3,500 per annum, that they are currently capped at.
Fees could rise to £20,000 in university cap review | Metro.co.uk |
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The thing that really gets my Goat is the fact that students in this country have to pay yet they don't in Scotland, much in the same way as Prescription Charges, and Hospital Park, its supposed to be great Britain or the United Kingdom, but there is nothing United about the country anymore. Even so the Government won't budge on these issues but the guilling thing is that Scottish MPs are allowed to vote on issues like student fees hospital parking and prescription charges when it doesn't affect the people who elect them, it always has been and always will be a nonsense:(:(:(
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I personally think it is important to contribute to the cost of your education in some ways. I obviously would rather tuition fees stay low in cost but realistically our education is heavily subsidised. Most international students who come to study here pay the full £10,000+ tuition fees unless they get a scholarship off the government through EU initiatives to attract talent to the country and stuff. (remember that even if they leave here after studying they will still have studied in UK and attract more people here)
Funnily enough I had this same conversation with my counsellor the other week and I remember making the remark that if your getting something for free you can hardly complain when its poor quality, but if you're paying the same fees as you would pay at Oxford and Cambridge then the least you should be able to demand is only the greatest efforts from your tutors wherever you study. |
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As both systems are 'heavily subsidised, by the tax payer. |
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GCSEs in my opinion aren't adequate education for any person. I would like to see more schools in our area doing A levels at the school rather than having to go to colleges. |
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