Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

I believe it was some dumbo septic who, a few weeks ago, claimed that had Professor Steven Hawking received treatment on the NHS, he would no longer be alive. The Lucasian Professor of Mathematics is, of course, alive today thanks only to the NHS.

Had Mr Michael Jackson received medication and treatment from the NHS, then he would also be alive today. Thank god he didn't.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

That isn't what bullseyebarb is saying :confused: Sounds to me like he is saying that it should be communities that setup schools independently of the state with taxpayers money. Sorry if this isn't what you meant bullseyebarb but to me it sounded like that.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Occasionally, only occasionally mind, you make me laugh out loud.

Very funny.

If laughter's the best medecine, you've just been promoted from a bed pan carrier.

:p

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

He?

Sounds like you've just flunked biology.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

It would appear that you have not yet been informed that I am the resident Professor of Mental Health and Director of the Accy Web cerebal improvement programme.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

I made a typo - great that you've had to sink to that instead of debating the point though.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

So we have Bullseyebarb believing everything in the press about the N.H.S.'s care being dependent on your postcode, yet she's suggesting a similar situation for education. With the quality of education being down to total luck, as to whether the community schools you happen to live near are good or not, rather than a universal education policy set by central government.

I know which system I think is preferable.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Surely you have a sense of humour Andrew?

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Typo, or you not being able to distinguish gender, are both causes for mirth, either in or out of a debate.

You're really going to have to toughen up, if like you say you want to be a ploitican, or at least hope I'm not there to heckle you.;)

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

We have a postcode lottery for education here even if it we do have a 'universal education policy'.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

big title for someone who sells out of date cheese chedders up Shadwell :D

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

...and how will the Conservatives address this issue, if it is true, if they are elected?

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Unlike others on this thread you have grasped the gist of it. In actuality, we do fund local schools with property taxes. The biggest percentage of my annual property tax bill is for education. As long as we are spending that kind of dough, I want decisions regarding education to be made here within the community and not by some DC bureaucrat. Apparently, that's just too hard for some people to understand.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Whilst I understand what you are saying I do not have to agree with it.

I take it that the area that you live in is relatively affluent and the schools can be fully funded from your property taxes. But what happens in areas where there is insufficient income form the property taxes to fund education to the same level as in your town? Do the children in those areas receive a lower standard of education? If they do , are you advocating this as being an acceptable state of affair?

Out of interest which school in Clayton did you attend?

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

You have to pay taxes on your bunker?

That's outrageous.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

You can't insure health. Insurance is meant to provide a cushion against the unexpected and catastrophic. As I have previously stated, the whole nature of insurance changes and is no longer viable when government steps in and begins mandating things. There are much better ways of handling whatever problems we have.

I don't have to believe everything I read in the press. I've visited some of your hospitals and clinics. That's why I always carry medical evacuation insurance when I travel abroad.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

...yes, health insurance is mainly concerned with profit, rather than providing good health care.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Money alone is not a reliable indicator of the kind of education children receive. It is not uncommon to find places with the least expenditure per student having far better results than others who spend vastly more. The worst schools and scholastic records are often in inner cities where huge sums are spent with little to show for it.

St. James'. Later, St. John's in Accrington.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

I reckon we know that already..but what is your alternative..fund the schools who gain the bset results and leave the rest to go futher into ruin?.. I don't think there is so much of a divide between the education system in America and here.. but I disagree on what seems to be your attitude to comprehensive education in Britain.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

What about wars and defence Bullseyebarb?

Are you against a centralised state run national defence policy, or would that be better off left to free market economics, at a localised level?

Let's hope the people in the neighbouring bunker aren't able to afford bigger weaponry than you.;)

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

To try to answer a couple of your questions , I live near the border of two School districts in California , Hayward and Castro Valley and believe me when I say there is a world of difference between the two districts . State law mandates that each child in California has a mimimum amount of money spent per child on education ,and is also required to meet the minimum criteria for educational standards (State testing) but it is up to each individual school district to decide how the money is spent, each district is governed by a locally elected school board (usually first step for budding politicians) who are responsible for distributing the budget , including the hiring and firing of teachers and providing facilities .
Open to the public School board meetings are held every month . The area where I live (Castro Valley) is a more fiscally conservative district (no Taj Mahal like office complexs for admin staff) and meetings are well attended and questions are asked ..test results put our schools in the top ten State percentile. Neighbouring Hayward spends the minimum required State amount per student but is in the bottom ten percent .
I mentioned earlier that the State sets a minimum amount of money per child , but this can be 'upped' in local taxes in each school board catchment area by a vote at election time , and in my district we decided that childrens education comes first, so in effect our children get more spent on them than kids in neighbouring districts ,one way is paying our teachers higher salaries ,we get a better grade of teacher, is that fair ? .....I think so , local democracy in action .
Now and again a Christian taliban looney sneaks in and is elected to the school board , someone for example who wants creationism taught along-side Darwinism in Science class, but this rare and in most cases (in California at least) is voted down .

Individual schools also raise extra funds for equipment from PTAs , (local democracy again for individual schools) who take an active interest in their childs education instead of just sitting back and saying "thats what we pay them for "

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Thanks for your reply steeljack - it helps to explain more about how your public schools are funded.

Many schools in the UK have PTA's who raise money for extra funds etc.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Sorry to disagree , but some of the teachers from 30 odd years ago (who only attended teacher training college) were a damn sight better than than some/many of the teachers of today , prime example literacy rates and the use of proper English by their end product. , maybe some will disagree , but it's my humble opinion "Degrees" have been dumbed down for political reasons (the 'no one is a loser, everyone is worth a prize' mentality), some reports go so far as to compare a present day "Degree" from one of the new universities as being on a par to a 60s A Level .
Said it before and will say it again , Places that 5 /10/15 years ago who used to issue diplomas in cake decoration or tyre changing are not universities , but technical colleges offering adult education under a different name .

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Sadly, because it is quite sad, I woke up up thinking about this very post.:p

If you notice I made no mention about the quality of teaching in my original post.;)

From my own point of view I had some wonderful teachers at primary school, all of whom had been to teacher training college, with not a degree between them.

I also have some experience of attending a secondary school a little over thirty years ago, which had a head teacher and most of the staff without degrees.

At the first parent's evening my dad was so appalled at the quailty of teaching that the very next day I was in a private school, the same fee paying school my dad had attended.

My parents were in the fortunate position to be able to make that choice, even if it went against their principles, as a good education should be a right for all children, irrespective of the background of the parents.

I saw first hand the difference in the quality of teaching. The vast majority of teachers at my new school had been to Oxbridge colleges, and were truly amazing teachers, certainly much better than I'd had at my state school, some of whom should have been in secure mental hospitals.

Like me, hopefully we all had the pleasure of being taught by some wonderful teachers, who hadn't been to university. My original post only pointed out that this is no longer the case.

Those teachers might have been even better if they'd been graduates.

Who knows?

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Earlier this year on this very forum, I compared a modern degree to an old O-level....jokingly.;)

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

One of the few things granted to the federal government by the U.S. Constitution is providing for the common defense of the nation. This is an appropriate role for government.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Whilst I am aware of the roles granted to the federal government of the US by the constitution, we have been discussing the Health Service and the Education system of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
As far as I am aware the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a sovereign country (unless we have become the 51st state of the Union whilst I was asleep last night and the news has not been disseminated to the citizens of the UK). I fail to comprehend what bearing the constitution of another country has on the UK. I am not seeking to criticize the US constitution, merely pointing out that it has no bearing whatsoever here in the UK.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Yes. We should not be funding schools which consistently deliver bad outcomes. No parent should be forced to send their child to such an institution. That is why I favor a no strings attached voucher system. Parents should receive education dollars directly and then choose which school is worthy of getting them. Some U.S. cities have voucher programs....but only in limited quantities and for those with lower incomes. Inner city parents in particular are desperate to get their kids out of public schools. After President Obama came into office, I was extremely disappointed, (although not terribly surprised), to see that the DC voucher program was canceled. This program had allowed many students to attend local private schools, including Sidwell-Friends, where Washington's movers and shakers send their children - including Obama. An outcry ensued, causing a reversal of policy......but only for those already enrolled in a private school. No new vouchers will be issued. So, private schools for Washington elites but not for the children of working class blacks.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

It's hard to find a country that doesn't at least make an attempt to provide for its common defense. Since my mention of the U.S. Constitution appears to have offended you, let's leave that aside. My point is still applicable. Whether it is your country or mine, a national government is where this particular function should reside.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Agree with this and your previous post. Parents are key.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

the poster aint offended in my eyes barb, just stating fact.:)

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Your post did not offend me just merely pointing out that it didn't have relevance to the NHS or schools.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

She was merely replying to Garinda.. both of whom made legitimate posts in reference to what they were talking about!

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

In my humble opinion, it is the causes of why schools are classed as failing that needs to be addressed, not just to allow the schools to fail. Also why should schools be classed as underperforming, merely on their exam results. Exam results do not take into account how much the children have improved since they joined the schools or whether many of the pupils have 'learning difficulties' of whatever degree. In Hyndburn we have a sizeable group of schoolchildren whose first language is not English. In addition there are some of the most deprived wards in England, here in Hyndburn -where children suffer from multiple causes of problems. The schools, which these children attend, have to overcome this problem before they can even begin to educate the children. So by your reckoning these schools (which by the very nature of the area of Hyndburn they are situated in) should be allowed to fail. Also have you any suggestions, as to where the pupils at these schools should be educated if they closed.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Andrew
Thank you for informing me of something I already knew - but I still fail to see how mentioning the US Constitution has any relevance to the UK. Maybe you could explain.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Yes, new schools would be set up by independent organisations rather than the state. Competition reduces cost and frees up more money to spend on pupils and better teachers.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

She was talking about the US education and health system, Garinda mentioned defence. The constitution which allows the US education system not to be controlled by the federal state, does allow it to take care of defence :confused:

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Which 'independent organisations'?

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Communities, philanthropists, existing working schools, co-operates..

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

So in times of recession, bankruptcies, redundancies etc., children's education would suffer because of lack of funds at certain schools?

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Not at all no. Sweden did the same in the time of recession and it dramatically improved their education system.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

I fully understand what Garinda was posting about, just fail to see where the US constitution fits into this argument.. You don't have the monopoly on intelligence. Some of us have received our education in the great university of life and speak from many years of experience, rather than the book learning you pontificate from.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Andrew have you asked David Cameron if it is permissable to quote these views about schools.

What happens when the competition has forced all other competitors out of business - then they can charge what they want. This really is devil take the hindmost thinking

I will quote what one of your Facebook friends has just posted - 'Seriously though, those who rely on state intervention and handouts will never be able to better themselves. The poor are a blemish on our society.'

Could you tell us what your views are on their statement?

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

I find myself agreeing with you on this .... (yes, I am sober;)) ... most of my property taxes go to fund education. And I do vote to choose members of my local school board. The Federal Govt. has no say in education (apart from schools on First Nations Territory); but the Province of Ontario, which tosses in about $30 billion into the education pot does set very firm guidelines in order to insure that there are some province wide standards. There are some things that would appear strange to many, like the public funding of a Roman Catholic Separate School system ... but that comes from concessions made in 1867, in the British North America Act. However, before I po Claytonender, I will say that I also like "decisions regarding education to be made here within the community and not by some (Ottawa) bureaucrat."

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

I saw that quote on Facebook and find it very insulting, just hope whoever wrote the quote never falls on hard times:(

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

They were my exact thoughts as well.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

It is no fun when you are unable to work and have to rely on the state without reading remarks like that from pretensious little gits who have probably never done a days graft in their lifes!!!!

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

You'd fund them with vouchers same value per pupil as state schools so you wouldn't get that problem.

No I haven't consulted David Cameron, what a silly question.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Well that's it all sorted then..if Sweden did it then it must be the best way forward.:rolleyes:

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Talking about those who rely on state handouts etc.: where does that leave GM, Chrysler, AIG, etc. .... blemishes on society maybe.:rolleyes:

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Well said, my friend. Corporate welfare is just as insidious.

Re your previous post on education - it's nice that we can be in agreement from time to time.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Perhaps you have misinterpreted the quote. Is it possible that this young person is referring to those who view welfare as not only their due, but a permanent way of life? Quite different from the temporary social safety net which I believe is what you and Bernie are discussing.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Makes little odds really how it was meant as genuine claimants are lumped together with shirkers in a lot of peoples eyes. And believe you me I know from when Ian was ill, because the illness was not visible he was classed as a shirker by many people:(

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

God bless Ian. Now I can understand why the Facebook comment stung so.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

i notice andrew responded to the first part of yer quote, yet ignored the last paragraph, whatever are we to think about his views on it?

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

Keeping you guessing? I doubt it, you don't need to guess, you know me better. Not gonna spend my time commenting on what other people have said on Facebook, especially when the only purpose it's posted on Accringtonweb for is one of political advantage from a Labour councillor. I'm not rent-a-quote... unless you pay. :D

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

It does feel good to be able to agree on occasion .... on the education thing, it is a clear case of "no taxation without representation" ... I think that is an American idea ... and a dammed good one, the foundation of any great democracy.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

I was not trying to use the post for political advantage - just appalled by what one of your acquaintances had written.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

One cannot be responsible for what another states, we are all entitled to our own opinions, just has you state you are appalled by it, however it should not be referenced to Andrew in my opinion.

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

whilst true ya can't be responsible fer what another states, the owd saying is, "People judge ya, by the company ya keep".:D

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

In which case I wouldn't bother going off 'Facebook friends'. :D

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

just remembered another owd saying- Like is Attracted to Like.:D

Re: who is this Daniel Hannan guy
 

If memory serves me right, it goes something like this:

'Twas an evening in October, I'll confess I wasn't sober,
I was carting home a load with manly pride,
When my feet began to stutter, and I fell into the gutter,
And a pig came up and lay down by my side.
Then I lay there in the gutter and my heart was all a-flutter,
Till a lady, passing by, did chance to say:
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses,"
Then the pig got up and slowly walked away.