Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Oswaldtwistles new War Memorial list of names came on line last night. The compliers want people who know of any names missing, the can submit on the form provided. The person must have lived in Oswaldtwistle at the out break of WW1.
If that is so then a good 10% of the names already on their list do NOT QUALIFY.
I would have thought that havinbg been born in Oswaldtwistle would be the main criteria. So far I've checked the first 100 names on the list
James Barnes was a native of Accrington, no connection with Oswaldtwistle.
Adam Broughton was native of Blackburn, only worked in Oswaldtwistle.
Thomas Connor was a native of Accrington

Peter Butler his name is on St Marys Church Roll of Glory. MISSING

Robert W. Cartmell of Oswaldtwistle MISSING
James Cawley of Oswaldtwistle MISSING
Harry Chambers of Oswaldtwistle MISSING
James C. Clements Oswaldtwistle MISSING
Bartholomew Condry Oswaldtwistle MISSING
Thomas Connor St Mary's Church Roll of Glory MISSING
Robert Dawson Oswaldtwistle MISSING
Drummond should be spelt with 2 M's not 2 N's
William Duxbury is in several Military records as DUXBURY not Duxberry.

The people of Oswaldtwistle should be disgusted with the list produced so far which only totals 390 names,

My records show 419 men from Oswaldtwistle who qualify for inclusion on the memorial

One I did check first, was William Lowther, an Accrington, Pal killed in action 1-7-1916, he is not recorded in the war graves or soldiers died in the great war, he is on the Knusden War Memorial & 2 of his brothers are on Blackburns memorial. I've had a right battle with those who run the Commonwealth Grave sites, to have William's name on the Theipval memorial. I have also found his grand daughter who lives in Cheshire, she may have more luck.

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Where online can you find the list?

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Who should the people of Oswaldtwistle be disgusted with? The Council or the Legion, which according to the former is the organisation that produced the list.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Why should they be disgusted at all? A list has been published for people to check and correct. I think that's a very sensible approach. They could be disgusted if it's engraved on the war memorial and incorrect but it isn't yet.

I'm sure they will appreciate your help Retlaw in setting them right.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I've already spoken to Roy Lockwood, once over two years ago when the project was first mentioned.
Then again two weeks ago, when he told me the list was ready and would be available for people to see at Oswaldtwistle & Accrington Libraries. The forms are available for people to add names but they will only accept those living in Oswaldtwistle at the out break of war, which will then be vetted by a committee, before they can be considered for inclusion.

I would have thought those who were born in Oswaldtwistle had first right, those who lived there next, those who were married to Oswaldtwistle girls next.
Then those who had lived in Oswaldtwistle most of their lives, but had moved away, and then those who had strong family ties in the town.

Some of those on the 1922 list of Oswaldtwistle men, are very tenuous, several should not be on at all.

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

To be honest, as these young men gave their lives for us, does it really matter that much that it needs an order of importance? Surely the sacrifice they made was equal, it surpasses all earthly boundaries? If a Sapper from Ossy comes before a Sapper form Knuzden does it matter? As long as they are ALL remembered and commemmorated.:confused:

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I expect the names would be alphabetical on the list.
As for who should be on it, I would expect people born or lived in Ossy when they left for war.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I can see our point lindsay, but with the same view can also see Retlaws point too. I've had the pleasure of meeting Retlaw and I know just how much work he has done on finding out details of our war dead, he is a very dedicated man and a stickler for detail, and we have to remember that all the many thousands of hours he has spent doing his research has been done for the only reward of thinking its a job that needed doing and has done without any though for himself. I for one admire Retlaw, well done my friend

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I agree men born or lived in Oswaldtwistle, but the 1922 list contained several men who had never lived in Oswaldtwistle. The compilers of the new list have also continued that practice and added some more that are completely wrong.
One in particular is Thomas Connor shown as 10795 PAL.
I have Thomas Connors Service papers and he has no connection with Oswaldtwistle, he was born and lived in Accrington. I also have the records of 7 others who qualify for inclusion, but are not on the list. I have only seriously checked the first two pages yet.

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

No one is arguing with that, what I'm saying is wrong names being included. Some of those on the original list should'nt be included in any order, but Oswaldtwistle, Knuzden and Stanhill men should be, as long as all the names are there and properly SPELT.

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Will you be assisting them with the spelling, errors and omissions so that the memorial is as complete and correct as it can be?

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Yes i agree with what jaysay in what he as wrote.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

The only time I was ever recognised, was at William Turners funeral by Roy Lockwood, he said he would be in touch with me. Since then nothing. When I saw the number of mistakes being perpetuated, in the list of names for Oswaldtwistles Memorial, it makes me wonder why I carry on with what I'm doing.
Never mind, Britcliffe in his ignorance supports them, so let them carry on. It will be no different than other War Memorials. Accrington's Memorial has 89 names missing, 5 men records twice and several spelling mistakes. Oswaldtwistle's original 1922 Roll of Honour, has several names that should not be on it & around 30 names missing.

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

It is a shame that all you gents with all this knowledge can't get together and make our memorial as accurate as possible.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Who are all these gents with all this knowledge.
There is one with a web site who thinks he's got knowledge, but thats got more mistakes than the Oswaldtwistle War Memorial list.

I only deal in PROVEN facts, any mistakes, and it throws the whole into question. I don't like mistakes or errors, if its a thou out its scrap.
Even the Public Record office at Kew have acknowledged mistakes in some of their records, when I've presented proof, but they say they cannot alter their records, only acknowledge that there is an error.

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Why do you think the mistakes were made in the first instance, particularly in relation to the listing of names on memorials in the 1920's?

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Those who compiled the original 1922 Roll of Honour, and the Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, mainly from lists compiled by the Accrington Observer in 1918, thats why some men are named twice, if he is recorded as John Thomas Bloggs wounded in one of the issues, and then later as Thomas Bloggs was killed in action, he gets one under each of the Christian names.

Then you've got the type setters in the printing shop trying to read some newspaper reporters scribblings,
and so it goes on and on and on.

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

If the collation of names were only on the basis of the Observer records, then I can easily see how duplications and omissions would have been made. Surely, though, there must have been at least some assessment made by the powers that be (council committee?) of the eligability of individual names to go on the memorial.

I suppose this problem would not have been unique to Accrington/Oswaldtwistle. After all, at a national level there is not even agreement on the duration of the war; some memorials date it as 1914-18, others 14-19 so if that could not have been agreed upon it is no surprise that the methodology in obtaining and the criteria in listing names would differ from memorial to memorial.

I wonder if the Accy Observer would have had, in it's 1920's correspondence columns, complaints of missing, duplicated and incorrectly spelt names and as such, what was subsequently done to rectify the situation?

One final thought occurs to me. What was the role of the next-of-kin in the process of placing names? At what stage were they consulted, if at all? And is it not possible that in a radical political climate (and in a local tradition of socialist non-conformism) that certain families would not have wanted their loved one's name carved on a monument seen as glorifing war?

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Some names were ommited especially those missing in action, some relatives held on to the hope that they may come home. Others were so disgusted at the way their loved ones had been treated, refused to have their names added.
Others had their names put on several memorials.
Accrington has an addenda panel, several names on there, are already recorded on other memorials.
Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

You for a start, Andrew Jackson (not sure if that's his name on here or real name) and presumably Roy Lockwood, who's been doing research for the War Memorial. That's three gents for a start.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Me I'm no Gent, and as one of the young ladies in the library said, your obssesed with finding all these men.

To me the other two are amatuers. If it takes 7 years to gain an apprenticeship, and I've been at it since 1983, what does that make me.

The only thing thats making it easier for me now, is the fact I don't have to keep travelling down to the Public Record office in London, now the documents I need are available thro Accy Library

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Surely, then, they could benefit from your wisdom to find out their mistakes. They may be amateurs but they're a darn sight more knowledgeable than the average person and if they're the ones publishing information then that's the information that the average person will trust to be right. And it's their information that will be read by future generations when you aren't around to correct them in person.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

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As far as I'm aware Roy was managing quite well on his own, he never asked for any help.
But I'm not having my work vetted by some tinpot committee, the only person qualified to verify my work is Catherine Duckworth the Local Studies Librarian.

As for the other, I would'nt hiss on him if he was on fire.

Retlaw.
Bet he's back on here before long, now that theres a thread on WW1.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Well clearly he's not managing quite well if you've spotted some mistakes. So to make sure that the information that is on the War Memorial is correct, would he not want your help.

As a resident of Oswaldtwistle, I want the War Memorial to have the right information on. We need people like yourself involved. He may not have asked you to help but have you offered?

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

.......but there is an argument, is there not, for leaving the memorial as it is - mistakes and all. It is after all, an historical symbol made by people with the most noble of intentions, still under a cloud of immense grief, and so who are we now to reinterpet their statement of their time?

Sorry, I'm just philosophising..............:(

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

There aren't any names on it at the moment. The names that we're talking about have been researched and are going to be put on the memorial for the first time. If there are mistakes in the first list then surely they need to be corrected before they are actually put onto the memorial for posterity.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Two questions:

1) Where on the memorial will the names be placed?

2) WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI conflicts have been added to the memorial. At some point in time, can we expect the names of those fallen to be added to the memorial and if so, where?

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I don't know :D

I don't know :D

Sorry

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

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No as soon as I heard that any submissions were to be put before a commitee, to decide on whether their names are added or not, then that was it as far as I was concerned.
They either accept my list as it is, without question, or carry on as they are, as I said earlier, who are they to judge my work, and if that sounds arrogant to you, then so be it. I am my own judge and taskmaster and I don't seek the praise of others, nor will I let them take any credit for my work, I just get on with what I am doing, and I'm constantly checking for any errors

And if Britcliffe is going to be involved in the descision, then thats it as far as I'm concerned.
All he is after is political kudos, look what I did for Oswaldtwistle. If he's the best you've got, its time to go up cemetery and dig a few of the old ones up.

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

But can you understand from my perspective - I want the names to be right, but before they're up there we already know that they're going to be wrong. BTW - i'm not involved in this project at all, just from the perspective as a resident.

I realise you've got problems with people using your work and them taking the credit for it, but this wouldn't be like that would it? This would be you helping them to get it right and getting recognised for your help and support.

Presumably they haven't got your list so can't accept it at this stage.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

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No they have'nt got my list, I would want cast iron guarantees before I hand any thing over.

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I can't see a problem with that really.
Whats wrong with checking that the names meet the criteria?

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

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I have enough experience at what I do to know they don't have the knowledge or the expertise to check what I do, as I've said before there is only one person capable of judging if my work is correct.
I don't have this problem when I get enquiries from the East Lancs at Fulwood Museum, or when the Lancs Fusiliers Museum contacts me, so why should I have to be judged by a bunch of amateurs.

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Are you saying that you would want cast iron guarantees that you would get all the credit and no one else would get any credit?

I tend to agree with Neil, what's the harm in checking the names and pointing out a few mistakes to them rather than handing over a full list. I'm sure they would all appreciate your guidance.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I don't see it like this - they wouldn't be judging your work would they? You'd be judging theirs.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Fair comment. I would have thought the checking would be more along the lines of why this person? If the answer is he was born in Ossy or lived here before the war etc then it is ok. Maybe even how do you know he is who you think he is.

Without checks someone might make a name up like Mike Hunt of Virginia Street was killed in action.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Yes it does.

It is a shame that the memorial will be full of errors. It does not seam worth producing the plaque if it will be inaccurate.

Maybe Hyndburn Borough Council should be discussing this with you and not the other two chaps.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Thats upto H.B.C., there is a contact number on the Borough Council website, tried 3 times but he's never in, so I'm not wasting any more of my time and money.
Many War memorials up and down the country don't have names on, they are usually on illuminated scrolls in public libraries or town halls,
so why go for a memorial like that, just for the vandals to play on.

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

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I never said any thing about me getting all the credit, I've already said I'm not interested in the praise from others. Dont put your words in my mouth or judge me by your standards.

I have no need of my work being judged by amateurs, and I have already said twice, there is only one person capable of judging my work.

Instead of ranting at me, why don't you down load a copy of the list, or get one from Ossy Library.
Just check a few yourself, then rant at the ones who created the list. Oswaldtwistle's memorial would look great with the name DruNNond on it.
Don't say it won't be, if those who created the list had just looked at what they'd done they would have seen that there is only one U in Immanuel, never mind all the other errors.
Read some of my replies in previous posts, instead of jumping on the first thing you don't agree with.

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I can see that DOW stands for died if his wounds on the second line.

With silly mistakes like that I wonder how good the rest of the list is.
I also wonder what some of the links are with Ossy when addresses listed are not from Ossy - we even have things like "could have lived in Church" on the list as well as Blackpool, Accrington, Blackburn and Barnoldswick :confused:

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

The correct abbreviation for Died of Wounds is usually written D.O.W., as K.I.A., stands for Killed in Action. In the next to last columm it shows Roll of Hon, that actually refers to the 1922 list of names, and some on there are very tenuous. I once said to Bill Turner if your passing through on the train and you waved at the station master you could have your name on the memorial.

Neil, there is just one thing, where the man lived before he joined up, where his parents lived and also that roll was created in 1922, S.D.G.W., was also collecting names and addresses, thats why why on some the information is incomplete. The C.W.G., were also sending out forms to the last known address, for information on family connections, in 1918 they were also trying to compile a register of absent voters, it is claimed the men themselves filled in the forms, what puzzles me is how can men who have been dead for over two years fill in a form. People were changing addresses, dieing, or just ignoring enquiries.

Thats why it takes a lot of digging to find out as near as dammit what the facts really are

Retlaw.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth or judge you by my standards - I don't even know what you think 'my standards' are? I was asking you a question, it's as simple as that, I was asking what it would take to get you to help the 'amateurs' out. Clearly that's never going to happen.

I've already called you an expert on many occasion. I've only pointed out that the people that you call amateurs could probably do with the help of an expert like yourself.

At no point have I ranted at you. And if at any point you feel that I have then I'm sorry you feel that way. It wasn't my intention. My only motive for continuing to post on this thread is to get to the bottom of how inaccurate this list will be and therefore, how inaccurate our war memorial is likely to be.

I'm not an expert and would have no idea what I was looking for. If the list that has been produced was put on to the memorial I would treat it at face value - just as the majority of people would.

I hope they do review the list now. I know the council officers read this forum all the time and I hope it does make them look again.
Obvious things like Immanuel might be spotted but others wouldn't be.
But even if I did look through it and look for mistakes I wouldn't know that someone was called Drummond and not Drunnond - there are lots of odd names around. I've just put Drunnond into google and a chap called Kevin Drunnond came up so obviously it's a real last name. How would I know that the Drunnond on our memorial should really be a Drummond?

And I certainly won't say it won't be wrong because I know for certain it will be, which is why I'm trying to encourage you as an expert to enlighten them.


I have read every single one of your posts and tried to understand what your motives were. I understand that you're upset about your previous work being plagerised, I would be too. I’m sorry if you think I’m ranting when I’m not – I only want it to be right when it’s up there.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I am sure it is impossible to get the information 100% correct. Records will have been lost and destroyed and all the name changing can't help either.

Just a thought, do they need permission to put a name on the memorial from a family member? You mentioned before that some families did not want the names of there loved ones on them.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Now that that generation is practically gone, I would like to think that a lot of the present generation would be happy to have their Grandads name on a memorial.

Bill & I soon found out that every body was claiming to have had a relative in the Accrington Pals, even showed one person that her great uncle had served in the York & Lancs Regt, "was that not the Pals" was the reply. If every claim that "he was in the Pals" was true, then the Accrington Pals could have fought the Germans single handed, and won. Of the original 1320 men who left for Caernarvon on Feb 23rd 1915, very few were still serving in the 11th at the end of the war, over 4200 men did serve in the battalion, but after the carnage of July 1st 1916, they could no longer be called the Accrington Pals.

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I hope they do review the list now. I know the council officers read this forum all the time and I hope it does make them look again.

If council officers do visit the forum, why do we not hear some comment from them.

As for the spelling of DruNNond, it is on the original 1922 Roll of Honour as DruMMond, if they had use their spill chucker (sic) before publishing that list, all would have been revealed.

What gets me is with the list on hbc's website is that only those who lived in Oswaldtwistle before the war, will be considered, if that is the criteria, then quite a few on the 1922 list should be removed.

I also have the names of those who qualify by being born or had lived in Oswaldtwistle, relatives still living in the town, but they served with the Canadians or Australians.

I have all the service records of those men, who enlisted abroad, plus some 450 service records of local men who served in the different regiments of the British Army, they show where they were born, age, occupation, next of kin, date of marriage, names of children when they were born etc. Those are known facts and can never be disputed, they are official historical documents.

Just started doing C's.

Retlaw

Obvious things like Immanuel might be spotted but others wouldn't be.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

perhaps they won't look again, cos when are council officers ever wrong?:rolleyes:

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

They had better shape themselves, just found another Clanger. HAWORTH. J.W. 36810. 40 Duke St, Oswaldtwistle, they picked one from the C.W.G., that has no family information, just to make it fit.

The man they should be after is HAWORTH. John Rushton. 40 Duke St, Oswaldtwistle. New Lane Baptists Roll of Glory and the Greater Accrington
R-O-H.

That memorial is going to be a right dogs breakfast.

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Why do you feel it necessary to be abusive?

My own version of the local Rolls of Honour are available for anyone to see and to offer corrections:
Greater Accrington Roll of Honour, 1914-1919 | Home Page

In the brief period when we exchanged information, Walter, your contributions were always acknowledged. See Reference 39 as well as the general acknowledgement here:
The Accrington Pals | The Officers and Men

(Yes, Gayle, it is my real name.)

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Well if your so good try finding JONES J. 33269 of Chapel St Oswaldtwistle, on the thieval memorial.
There is a JONES John wth that number, but he has no connection with Oswldtwistle, as far as I can get.

Then we have another, 203177 JOHNSON A. died at home. 203177 JOHNSON was in the Royal Scots Born in Burnley and was killed in Palestine.

Retlaw

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

I see the Telegraph is now running with this story. I wonder where they picked up the controversy? From reading this thread, perhaps? Or maybe Retlaw got on the blower to tell 'em there were cock-ups galore. Maybe he can advise us on the latest.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

To everyone, Roy Lockwood initially, and all the people at the council, who've organised the names of the town's war dead from WW II and the Korean War, to be put on a brass plaque at the War Memorial, thank you very much.

After sixty six years, having her dad's name on an already very special place to her, means a lot to one soldier's daughter, and his two grandsons.

Thank you.

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

'The Oswaldtwistle War memorial was erected by public subscription and unveiled on Saturday, January 14th 1922 by Major General Shoubridge CB, CMG, DSO. The memorial is a monument consisting of a polished granite pedestal standing upon three steps and embellished with bronze groups. The total height from the ground is 30ft. The monument is crowned with a winged figure of Victory in bronze, standing upon a globe. On the centre plinth is a bronze group of two soldiers, one in the act of defending his wounded comrade, entitled 'Patriotism'. Projecting from the centre plinth, on a level with the group are ships' prows each containing a small winged figure in bronze: one representing the spirit of the navy and the other the spirit of the air force. On the front of the monument is the inscription: 'Erected to the memory of the Men of Oswaldtwistle who fell in the Great War, 1914-1918'.'
Oswaldtwistle

Re: Oswaldtwistle War Memorial
 

Thanks for sharing the photo of the war memorial. It is a great photo and one that I have not seen before.