Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

How do we get out of Afghganistan?... we are losing soldiers every week..is NATO providing enough "firepower"..to take over a nation? if we pull out the Taliban will take over and that means trouble.. but how long will it take to win?

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

should never have gone in IMHO, the ruskis tried fer years n went home wi tails between their legs, afghanistan was never winable in my book n the coalition lads are paying a high price.:(

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

in the first place Cashy it was pretty clear that the Taliban had Bin Laden..a self proclaimed mass murderer...something had to be done and in my opinion the attack on Afghanistan was legit..just wondering if we can win this war...but then what happens if we pull out.. lives lost for nothing?

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

it was a "cool" place in the early 70s (good old days) when the Magic bus used to operate from London via Amsterdam to Katmandu with stopovers in Kabul ,blocks of pure hashish the size of Cadburys Dairy milk bars, (with official Govt. stamp in Gold leaf) .

That being said , don't think any of this Al Queda stuff would have happened if Ronald Reagan had left the Russian occupation alone or even allowed them to move a bit more south thru Baluchistan (Southern Pakistan/Iran) and have a warm water port on the Arabian sea. The idea that Russia would cut off Gulf oil supplies was rubbish , the west had enough oil, most of the cheap Gulf oil was going east to China and Japan ....ergo Ronald Reagan did more to destroy western manufacturing jobs by supplying cheap energy to China than anyone .

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

yes Steeljack Regean did bluff it with the bollocks about "star wars" stuff.. but to me there is no doubt that the Taliban had a war declared on the USA..and if they had not been removed that war would have gone far worse than 9/11.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

thats the crux of the arguement , would the Taliban or Al Queda have ever existed if Ronald Reagan hadn't supported the Afghani Mujahadin in the first place by supplying them with arms .

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

I think its a different situaton than when the Ruskies were there, this offencive has the backing of NATO and the UN, plus not to many people living in that corner of the world want to see the Talaban back ruling the roost.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

NATO and the UN along with Communism look great on the theory side of things, when ya dig a bit deeper and look at the reality of these bodys there as much use as "Tits on a Fella":rolleyes:

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Its different cashy the local people are against the Talaban, they supported the Mugaradin against the Ruskies

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Let's do something sane for once in these costly encounters: get the troops out ... now; leave the Afghan people alone to handle their mess. 123 Canadians dead so far, four in the last couple of weeks .... over $20 billion spent .... Afghanistan the largest recipient of Canadian foreign aid, money that could be better spent elsewhere .... And has anyone else noticed that of the NATO contingents there, only three are doing any actual fighting .... guess who?

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Nobody wins any war - one side just loses less than the other.
If you have to look for 'a winner', it will be the munitions company who got the best contract for supplies.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

exactly my point about NATO being useless, pity jaysay cant see it.:rolleyes:

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

The politicians are now saying it's NOT a war but a peace keeping excercise while they have elections! The history of the area does not bode well for the current mission I think we should cut our losses and bring the boys and girls home

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Sorry, dont agree.......Bring the likes of John Simpson home and the rest of the so called war correspondents home and we may have a result.
A protected journalist is a burden to front line forces, and I say this from experience.....they are a pain in the arse. Their life is more important that the front line troops that are reporting upon.
Lets get real. our lads and lasses are dying out there.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

dont dispute the value of simpson n company roy, but cannot forsee a result if they bring journalists home, how do ya get a result against a foe who sees dying as n honour, is also au-fait with the terrain they are brought up in, i fear the brave forces are on a hiding to nowt oer yon.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Can see the logic in that......If they see dying as an honour.....Kill the Enemy by whatever means possible......without crying over spilt milk.
If yu are confroted with someone with a loaded gun an you have a loaded gun, are you going to ask what school he went to.....I think not.
I think our brave forces are subjected to unreasonable request from the powers that be 'Can I shoot this Barsteward Sir' or do I have to ask your permission?

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

if this was a conventional war, i would back our lads to stuff anyone, this lot are n invisible enemy,ya can't defeat what ya can't see. wish i was wrong but cannot see any result.:(

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

We do have those nukes still, might as well get some use from the billions spent :rolleyes::D

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

think this is a different type of war from where British national servicemen were sent into 'combat' against the 'communists' in Malaya or the Mau Mau in Kenya to defend the Empire . There were no television cameras allowed to show the atrocities perpetrated by the British forces against local insurgents (think the BBC propaganda at the time ..Mad Mitch and the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders in the Aden crater ....the guy at the time was a British hero )

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

I have thought long and hard before answering this, the Kenyan situation I am not aware of nor did I take part in that undertaking.
I never saw any mistreatment of the enemy in the Malay Insergancy nor did I see or encounter atrocities.
The order of the day was quite simple. If you are confronted by an armed insergent, kill him before he kills you.

Many of the commanding Officers in the Malay Conflict where Officers in WWII and had experienced the Japanese and Nazis..............Our lads are being killed by the dozen and the rule book should go on the back burner.

I think I'm inclined to side with Neil....Go for the kill

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

this discussion was taken at another business lunch today.:D conclusion was WHY? do they not just take out the bloody "Poppyfields" a relatively easier task using spray plane technique etc, after all that was supposed to be the first objective a few years back, as we were told- thats what funds the Taliban.:rolleyes:

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Cashy........Slow flying planes would be taken down in minutes.....Drones are too high....Nepalm is not allowed. This would be assumed to be an attack on the civilian population. High spray may finish up in Accy and destroy the crops on the allotments.
There are enough brains out there to resolve the situatioin but have they the balls to do it? or would that be politicaly correct?

We urgently need a Barnes Wallace

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

napalm is not allowed, never stopped the yanks using it in viet-nam. my assumption would be- any civilian in the middle of a poppy field is fair game, simple as.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Cultivating poppies is not a crime. many legitimate drugs are dependant on the poppy and i'ts yield.
The poroblem is the the excesses that the grower cannot sell at a reasonable price and is terefore tempted to sell on the open market.....Come in the Drug Barrons.
These people are not constricted by the same laws that we are, if a fisherman catches one fish too many, he has to thow it back.
I am of the opinion that if bullshine baffles brains then brains are lacking.
I suffer with all the lads and lasses that have died in this stupid conflict and having worn with pride the uniform of or Queen and country.
Take the brakes off and send the enemy to hell.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

my line also, it sure as hell worked with the Kamikaze squads lot, sure it made a hell of a mess after, but it stopped em.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

I don't agree that taking the brakes off will work in this case .... the Taliban is not an army; and it isn't really a group of insurgents. "Taliban" is an idea, a widely held belief founded in religion. Its one that has wide popularity in Afghanistan ... it can't be beaten, unless of course you turn the country into a radioactive parking lot. Even then the idea will live on in some other crap hole of a country I don't care about. Let's get out of there now. Leave them to it. Cut off aid. Boycott their hash (mmm, have to think about that one). If they want a theocracy; let 'em have one. That country is not worth one drop of Canadian, British, or American blood ... yet we're pouring it out in gallons. (I didn't metion the German or French blood ... wonder why?)

Support Our Troops/Appuyons nos troupes.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Sorry Eric but have to disagree with that. If the troops pull out, aid is stopped exports there are banned then that gives justification that the west went in to stamp all over their beliefs and not to free the oppressed. That could lead to them becoming an example to others thus compounding the problem. The whole intervention in Iraq though with the same kind of ethos to free the people waas in my opinion more to do with oil than WMD's. Well that and the fact that Israel might have got peed of enough to nuke em. Afganistan is a country that for centuries given many mighty powers the international signal of defiance and as such there is no easy answer. The result many soldiers from certain countries dying fighting to free a country from an unjust system.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Why would that have been bad?

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Israel nuking an arab state would be asking for a new Arab Israelie war with not the odd Arab State but them all. Besides the Americans back Isreal and need Iraqs oil reserves.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Radioactive oil might work better :)

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

There might be a C change in attitude when the world actually runs out of oil and the Arabs no longer hold everybody by the short and curlies:rolleyes:

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

That will be a long time off

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Exactly

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Why hasn't Less told you all to shut up and cheer up ?:rolleyes: ;)

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

He probably cares for the lads who are loosing their lives, as we all do.
Nothing cheerful in that? :(

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

I agree, but he doesn't like the doom and gloom threads.
He has told me to lighten up - but hasn't told you:confused:
Maybe gloomy threads that he agrees with are exempt

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

He like us :rolleyes::p

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Of course the west went in to stamp all over their beliefs .... or, at best, the beliefs that we don't like, the ones that don't fit in with our different beliefs ... and who gave us the right to decide who is oppressed and who isn't ... I have no doubt the Taliban feel oppressed with all that high tech firepower pointed at their asses. The idea that we claim to be there for the benefit of the Afghanis is bs, and it sure as hell doesn't give me the warm fuzzies. Seems like we started the scrap, and are now scrambling to make up reasons why we are still there. Support for this conflict is at an all time low in this country .... the only positive thing is that support for our troops is at an all time high ... at least there are some French fighting over there ... men and women of the 22e Regiment (Van Doos) from Quebec.:mosher:

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

We might or might not be losing the war, but we sure as hell keep losing soldiers. Pte. Sebastien Courcy, 2e battallion, Royal 22e Regiment, Regiment d'infanterie Canadien-francais: the 125th Canadian soldier to die in Afghanistan. Je me souviens.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

I think we were right to go into Afghanistan. Problems over the border in the Swat Valley are of concern. Pakistan soldiers are also paying a heavy price fighting extremism.

On November 14, 2007, senior Pakistan Army officials said that from 2001 till November 14, 2007, at least 966 military men were killed and 2,259 others were injured. On October 23, 2008, the Pakistani Army confirmed that a total of 1,400 soldiers and paramilitaries had been killed since 2001. An additional 220 policemen were killed in fighting in 2007 and 2008. Some have speculated that the unofficial number of Pakistani soldiers killed in action to be somewhere around 3,000 by the late 2006

I am not a military person but I think we need to pump more aid (from all countries) in the Helmand Province to keep the Taliban/Extremists at bay. In Iraq we put locals on the army payroll and secured a better chance of peace/end of the war for the Coalition.

Each loss is terrible. I saw Greg (Pope) cry at Jason's funeral. Our soldiers need the nation behind them, there should no be no point scoring in the media or any politics. People are losing their lives and it should be a positive collective approach to the war. Cameron should spend more time visiting No.10 to sort out issues instead of running up and down Fleet Street.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

don't know anyone who aint 100% behind our lads out yon, but know loads of ordinary folk who think they shouldn't be there, in fact most i know think that. do ya actually ever ask that question of the voters graham?

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

a comendable sacrifice considering that their country is fighting a civil war . Seems the country has progressd from the days when Clement Attlee (Labour PM 1945-51) installed Ali Jinna as a secularist Prime Minister :rolleyes:

Just wonder if the numbers are of British "ethnic" minority youth from North East Lancashire who are members of Her Majestys forces is proportinate to the rest of the general population ?

not throwing any stones , just a fact of life here in the US that both the Army has a higher percentage of African Americans , and the Marine corps has a higher percentage of Hispanic Americans than the general population .......though the causualty figures of dead and maimed from Iraq and Afghanistan don't reflect this .

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

I take the time to speak to anyone. I think you are right. Many voters now are against the war in Afghanistan with the losses mounting.

During the Falklands we lost 268 armed forces personnel. With the media blackout during that war, the public stayed in support despite the losses. I would like to see us there but not engaging as much in fighting. However the Army know best so I'll accept we are doing things right.

Are there any polls? Speaking to people it feels 2 thirds; 1 third, with the two thirds growing daily?

I think you're right.

One problem is the vast majority of Muslims do abide conscientiously by Islams mantra of peace. The biggest issues though are insularity (polarised communities) and double identity/cultural conflict (not wishing to fight for British values).

The Pakistan Army does not have problems of recruiting soldiers to fight, or to fight the Taliban even though the casualties are higher.

The US Army has an aggressive recruitment drive amongst the poor and unemployed and as you point out is non-Islamic.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Same over here .... even the Quebecois, who are more opposed to the war than any other Canadians, turn out in their thousands to cheer the men and women of the Van Doos as they leave for Kandahar. But who is doing the fighting over there? Check this out: Number of KIA by country: Australia, 11; Czech, 3; Denmark, 24; Estonia, 4; Finland, 1; France, 28; Germany, 33; Hungary, 2; Italy, 15; Latvia, 3; Lithuania, 1; Netherlands, 19; Norway, 4; Poland, 9; Portugal, 2; Romania, 11; S. Korea, 1; Spain, 25; Sweden, 2; Turkey, 2 .... and; Canada, 125; UK, 188; US, 749 ... now, who the eff is doing all the fighting over there? Canada's combat commitment in Afghanistan ends in 2011; and it won't be extended. We've had enough ... Canada will honour its commitment until the end of 2011 (god knows how many more lives that will cost); but, after that, it's someone else's turn.

Support Our Troops/Appouyons nos troupes.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

got to say Eric I'm surprised by the fact that so many countries are involed in Afghanistan...I'm not sure that a league table of killed in action is a good marker as to wether the war can be won, the figures may show which countries are more "commited" to this war but then some countries have more to lose than others if the Taliban are to be kept at bay.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

I actually thought about this as I was making the post .... I didn't intend to suggest that having a large number of KIA was something that deserved some sort of accolade ... just to show that some countries, three to be precise, are doing much more than their fair share at the sharp end ..... and in the case of my country, whether the Taliban wins or loses means little to us ... I don't know of anyone here who feels threatened by the Afghanis or the Taliban ... I do know that in the area of the country in which Canadian forces are operating more kids, esp. girls, are going to school, more people have access to medical care, clean water etc. than was the case before we arrived. However, even with all the positive things that we have accomplished, there are many thousands of Afghanis who want us out of there. And they are prepared to kill our soldiers in order to accomplish that end. In some sense I understand their point; it's their country and they should be allowed to run it as they wish. It's time to leave them to it.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

Just heard on the news that Kingston Police have arrested three people for the murder of 4 women who were found dead in a car which ended up by the lock gate at Kingston Mills Locks, the first lock on the Rideau Canal. Found dead were: Zainab Shafia, 19; Sahar Shafia, 17; Geeti Shafia, 13; and Rona Amir Mohammad, 50. Charged with four counts of first degree murder and four of conspiracy to commit murder were the father, mother, and brother of the three young women: Mohammad Shafia, Tooba Yehya Mohammad, and Hamid Mohammad Shafia .... Rona Mohammad may have been the first wife of Mohammad Shafia .... police aren't releasing many details; but they say it may have been an "Honour killing" .... The family were immigrants from, you guessed it, Afghanistan .... so, what chance is there of winning the hearts and minds of Afghanis ... ? The Nixonian doctrine of "if you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow" doesn't seem to be working .... it's time to leave.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

It doesn't matter how hard you try your never going to get integration between different cultures, It doesn't work, especially when the culture is so interwoven with religion, There is a case in London where a young man has had acid pored down his throat, because he committed adultery with a married muslim woman, the police have said that the woman isn't safe either, it is said that this was an honor issue under sharia law, and the Muslim fanatic's want this in our country, no thanks

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

But there is integration among the cultures over here .... except for one: the "culture" founded on extreme versions of Islam ... They will never fit in. If memory serves me right; there have been several cases of muslime women being murdered by their husbands in the past year. I think that Canada, under our present govt., (Conservatives, Jaysay, you will be glad to hear), are slowly closing the doors to immigrants. And it's stuff like this that is fueling the move. Recently, visitors from the Czech Republic, and from Mexico have been forced to get visas to visit Canada. Seems like to many of them were coming for a visit and then staying to apply for official immigrant status on phoney "refugee" claims. Pity is that incidents like this are turning the general population against ALL Muslims, not just the freaks who conspire to kill their own kids. And a lot of us are looking at Afghanistan and starting to seriously question our commitment of troops and money. On a personal level, I resent very strongly, having some perverted Islamic zealots turn my community into a sharia slaughterhouse. While racism in Canada seems to be on the decline, Islamaphobia is definitely on the increase. And it's not hard to see why.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

I'd say the same about Britain..racism and prejudice in this country was traditionally against black people with no logical reason other than skin colour, but it has shifted to Islamics (something which the far right have been quick to grasp)..but now there is logic involed because of the extreme muslims.

Re: Are we losing the War in Afghanistan?
 

For once I totally agree Mancie, but its because of the Muslim Extremist that all Muslims are being tared with the same brush, on the whole Muslims are peace loving, but are being portrayed in a bad light by the few