What's the use?
 

Now that we have been been browbeaten into accepting the Lisbon Treaty and thrown into the melting pot of the European Union, will there any point in voting come the next general election as, like it or not, Brussels will rool the roost from now on!

:confused::confused::confused:

Re: What's the use?
 

Was there any point before it was ratified?:D:rolleyes:

Re: What's the use?
 

Democracy is dying the death.
Who knows what will come next -maybe we will have a revolution against dictatorship.
Whatever transpires, people get the government they deserve - we are seeing the results of apathy.

Re: What's the use?
 

Certainly wouldn't vote for either of the main parties as they both lied about giving us a referendum on this...didn't they, all you Labour and Tory party members out there? :rolleyes:

Re: What's the use?
 

Sorry Wynonie, don't agree, Labour have sold use down the river AGAIN, there is no point of the next Tory Government holding a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty as its will have been in force for six months prior to any change in Britain, the Lisbon Treaty will be law in December thanks to Brown, but Cameron has said that the next Government will ensure that this will never be allowed to happen again and will pass laws which state that British interests will be put before European, as well as renegotiating parts of European law. For the Tories to ave any sort of a vote on the Lisbon Treaty would be totally futile and waste of money (these exercises don't come cheap) you can't unratify something that is already law

Re: What's the use?
 

Looks like we could be heading for a hung parliament.

Who would you hang first?The list is endless.

Re: What's the use?
 

In that case, he shouldn't have made a "cast-iron" promise on it in his attempt to look tough on Europe.

I'll tell you one way to solve it, though, Jaysay - how about the next Tory government having a referendum on the whole question of our EU membership? You know in your heart of hearts he wouldn't dare, because he knows what the answer would be! Much better to carry on with the illusion that somehow we can be part of the EU but still independent!

Re: What's the use?
 

As you know Wynonie I'm no great fan of Europe, but in the scheme of things coming out now and going independent would be counter productive, so many British firms are tied up in the EU. When the common market was set up it was for trade purposes only not to form a supper state run by new best buddies Germany and France. I can only hope that Blair is not the first President of this fiasco, and sods of to the states on his 100,000k a night lecture circuit

Re: What's the use?
 

Easy trap to fall into. The "cast-iron" promise was about a referendum before Lisbon was ratified. In all reality as much as it pains me to say it, now that it has been ratified it would take all 27 countries to undo it. Previous to ratification we had the power to say no. It's Brown we have to blame.

I want an in or out referendum. We actually have the power to legislate on the result of that referendum, unlike a post ratification referendum on Lisbon. I don't want it come what may however. If you had one now Labour and the Liberal Democrats would use the economy to fool voters into remaining in the EU. Just like what happened in Ireland over Lisbon. They'd then argue forevermore that the British public gave them a mandate to keep on course to a federal Europe. Something we can both agree is not what we want. We want a sovereign Britannia.

Re: What's the use?
 

Funny how this qualification about ratification was never mentioned when David was pretending to be all Euro-sceptic and banging on about "cast-iron guarantees" but never mind. As for holding a referendum on some mythical future date, you know as well as I do, Andrew, that the Tories will never do that!

Re: What's the use?
 

This is all part of the agenda for one world goverment.:D

Re: What's the use?
 

..Coming soon to a country(cinema) near you:D

Re: What's the use?
 

European President?

What the hell!

The last time we had a referendum on Europe, it was sold as an economic alliance, not as the birth of the United States of Europe.

The Soviet Union, the bringing together of totally disparate countries, under the umberella governing of one super state, didn't work, and neither will this.

It'll end in tears being shed, if not blood.

Re: What's the use?
 

while our troops are fighting for other countries freedom who exactly is fighting for ours ?

unelected priminister and now not even asked about this or even allowed to vot on either of the two


i just think the UK has a lot of nerve marching into other countries telling them democracey is the way to do things yet dont allow its own people the same courtesy

Re: What's the use?
 

Think you've nailed that to the wall exactly Rindi

Re: What's the use?
 

Am I right in thinking that if a referendum were held ... let's say on a simple "yes" or "no" question .... that the answer would be a resounding "No"?

Not my problem, but a national referendum would appear to be the only fair way of dealing with the question ... fair, that is, to the people in the UK. Both sides can then bring their arguments out into the open and allow the voters to choose. Twice in the last two decades, Quebec has voted on the question of separation from Canada ... and on both occasions Quebecois voted to stay in Confederation ... everything seems quiet now. But the point is, that when the future of our country was at stake, the matter was dealt with democratically ... everything out in the open. Looks to me like the future of your country is at stake. The time seems to have come for the grass roots members of all political parties to remind the big wigs that the power is with the people.

Re: What's the use?
 

The last time we had a referendum on our membership, when it was still called the Common Market, and was purely a trade alliance, was way back in 1975.

At the last General Election Labour promised there would be another referendum if they won. Something Brown has shamefully renegaded on.

Tory-Lite had made a similar promise, if they win the forthcoming General Election. Though this seems it won't now happen, because the Lisbon Treaty is/has been ratified.

Instead of being members of an economic trade alliance, we've aquired another (more powerful) level of government, and the very sovereignty of the country has been eroded, and the man and woman in the street doesn't have the slightest clue how this has come about.

All opinion polls show the majority of the population aren't happy with the present situation.

Another worry for the electorate, that the main political parties seem able to turn a blind eye to.

Re: What's the use?
 

I always thought that the Common Market was a good idea ... maybe more than that, an inevitability, like NAFTA ... but a United States of Europe, I don't be thinking so. I just can't see what is in it for the UK:confused: But if the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified by, what is it, twenty seven different govts., there must be some perceived benefit. Maybe I'm just too dense to see it. Many Canadians felt that the Federal Govt. (Progressive Conservatives at the time at the time of NAFTA) was headed towards something more than a trade agreement with the US, and the voters punished the PCs in a general election ... the tories were reduced from a majority in parliament to a rump of, I think, four members ... the party was effectively destroyed ... if this little bit of Canadian political history has any point, it is that democracy can work in dramatic ways.

Re: What's the use?
 

We have given away our sovereignty, our identity and our legal independence....and for what? So the faceless, unelected members in Brussels can dictate on all apsects of our daily lives....and for this we are given the privilege of paying vast sums of money into the EU pot.
We have been bamboozled and hoodwinked into believing that we could not exist outside of the European Union......it felt like a forced marriage in 1975......and it still feels like that now.
Whatever David Cameron might say, he will never be able to re-negotiate different terms for the UK, if he thinks that he will be able to do this he is dreaming.
We can kiss goodbye to democracy.

Re: What's the use?
 

A situation which is well illustrated on here. Our resident Tory members like to pretend they're unhappy with the EU, but are quite happy to carry on supporting a pro-EU party. It would be interesting to hear what Tory councillors think, but none of them have the bottle to join Accyweb.

As for our Labour party members and councillors, a deafening silence! ;)

Re: What's the use?
 

The member states who didn't ratify the treaty were sent away until they came up with the right answer.........we in the UK were not given a choice or a voice...it was presented to us as a fait accompli.......I fear that there is little chance of us ever being given the option of a say in our political future.

Re: What's the use?
 

In 1975, when the majority of the electorate voted to continue our membership, they did so because it was at that time a trade and economic union. Not what by stealth, it has become now, a body that ultimately decides on the laws we are governed by.

Turkey, with the vast part of it in Asia, will become a member within the next ten years.

Not to worry.

We'll probably be bankrupt before then, so won't have to send Child Support Benefit to any of the 71 million Turks who will be eligible to work here, and claiming for offspring back in Turkey.

Re: What's the use?
 

that is quite correct, even more frightening to me though is did some folk actually think we ever had a say at any point in time?:eek:

Re: What's the use?
 

....and if we were disgusted at the expenses scandals in our Town Hall, and at Westminster, why aren't we storming Brussels, because that gravy train puts all the others to shame?

Re: What's the use?
 

It isn't democracy...........It's slavery

Re: What's the use?
 

That's what you get when you surrender without fighting the battle, like the French in 1940 ...

Ever since Confederation in 1867, the main focus of every Federal govt. has been the struggle to maintain national unity in the face of so much diversity that .... I would need to write a book to explain it. The forces threatening to tear this country apart (and Quebec seperatism is only one of them) are always in a delicate balance with those holding us together. Also, we share this continent with the world's only remaining super power. It's a constant battle ... but we are still here, still fighting disintegration; and those of us who think about it realize that failure is always an option. But in the words of one of your poets: "Say not the struggle naught availeth."

Re: What's the use?
 

It does not matter who you vote for and there promises of what they will put in practise. if its labour, conseratives or any other party, they all have the same problems to deal with, and its just a case of how much money do we throw at it and who we put in the driving seat to throwing that money. I watch question time and other political media and NO ONE!!!!! says they will get down to the peoples level and look at things from the bottom up, wall the streets, walk the wards, walk the estates of this country. They go from there house( which they get more or less paid for by claming exspenes) to there little meeting and everything they decide on is made of things dreamed up by thinks tanks, who think this might work, and give its 2 years to find out. In the mean time its was a load of CRAP!!!!!! and people have dead. Dont get me wrong people make the wrong paths some time,
It all boilers down to money and the united kingdom has NONE, we are skint.
I hope we do join the euopean union and ( with a strong leader) get back some off the money we put in to building up other countries eg HALF of europe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Germany to be frank!!!!!!!!!

You vote for them and your doomed, you vote for them and your doomed. JUST DONT VOTE AND LIVE YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: What's the use?
 

A 'left and right' in politics is an illusion to make you think you have choice.
They both work to the Bildeburg agenda.
They create problems which they offer solutions for
BUT those solutions always involve loss of some freedom
.....slavery

Re: What's the use?
 

YOU talk the same dribble as the parties in this country do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get to the point, looking after this country is very simple, we do it I mean the people, or someone else, eg europe. who do you think................

Re: What's the use?
 

All I see here, hon, is defeatism in another guise.

In any struggle, or battle if you want a more combative image, the chance of defeat is always there ... but as the British have shown throughout their history, you can lose a helluva lot of battles, and still win the war. Conversely, you can win a lot of battles and still lose the war ... this latter is the German way;) Although it sometimes crosses my mind that Germany lost the war, but seems to have won the peace.

Re: What's the use?
 

Where've you been for the last 30-odd years? :rolleyes:

Re: What's the use?
 

Just read that the Lisbon Treaty becomes effective on my birthday .... that sucks ... and only one day after Churchill's birthday ... I bet he's spinning in his tomb right now.

Re: What's the use?
 

Also, just read the Berlin Declaration .... what a crock of horse manure:eek:

Re: What's the use?
 

Has anyone considered that one can make the argument that the UK is not really a European country in the sense that continental European countries are? Britain is an island nation, with lots of peculiarities that this insularity confers. Throughout much of your history, Britain's best interests have been served by a divided Europe ... Britain supported France when it suited them; and fought against them when it was in her best interest. Is it possible that this insularity, combined with a maritime outlook and an Imperial past has made Britain unique. Britain has always had a much wider world view than continental Europeans ... (wherever I go in the US or Canada I communicate in English (ok, maybe in parts of Quebec I need French)) .... the only significant difference between the parliament that represents me, and that which represents you is the flag flying over the building. If I posed the question: "Which country do you feel you have most in common with, Germany or Canada?", what would be your answer?

Re: What's the use?
 

The Norwegians are not full members and only have a trade agreement.
They had 2 referendums and said NO twice.
They seem to manage very well without the political interference

Re: What's the use?
 

Well it sure wouldn't be the Krauts Eric.

Re: What's the use?
 

You might not agree with what she says, but Margaret certainly doesn't 'dribble'. Which if we weren't so generous, you being a new member and all, we could accuse your posts of being 'dribble', as well as incoherant, due to their lack of capital letters, and punctuation.

But we wouldn't be so rude.

;)

Certainly until we knew the lie of the land here.

;)

By the way, bad language isn't allowed on this family site.

Rule Britannia.

Re: What's the use?
 

Canada, then every other Commonwealth country, then every country which ever belonged to the British Empire, and lastly Germany.

The only close tie we have in common with the Germans, is that we have one on the throne.

I'd vote B.N.P. myself, if they'd guaramtee to send her back.

:D

Re: What's the use?
 

Someone on question time this evening, a member of the audience, made the point about M P s pay that since so much has been given over to the EU they should be paid less!

And not included in that was the question “Do we need as many as there are now?”

Re: What's the use?
 

Spot on Margaret....the Norwegians have not been bamboozled into accepting this Super State....and the super bit only refers to size.

It seems to me that the other members of the EU follow only the EU rules that suit them, whereas we follow them slavishly.

I do despair for the future........I am just glad that I am at the butt end of my life.

Re: What's the use?
 

And therein lies the answer. I recall the furore among Commonwealth countries when we signed the so called 'Common Market Agreement'. It was seen as a betrayal -and who am I to disagree!

Re: What's the use?
 

Future looks bright over here ... I'm just glad I live at the butt end of Lake Ontario.:)

But I do agree that Norway provides a good example of what Britain could still do ... Norway seems to be doing just fine ... one of the most desirable places on the planet to live.

Re: What's the use?
 

Now that this has been stuck on us how long before we lose our own parliament and all that it does pass to the MEP's we elected?

Re: What's the use?
 

you lot make me laugh.. there has been treaties signed since the Tories took us into this ...no out cry in those days so why do you tories all get upset about this treaty?

Re: What's the use?
 

Seems to me Germany won the peace thru one thing .....hard work , rebuilding a country that had been bombed flat ,had lost over 1/2 its population , any piece of equipment worth a penny was shipped back east to Russia as 'reparations' ,and 90% of its female population aged over 12 yrs old in the eastern half of the country raped by the advancing Russian armies .
OK the Marshall plan did help in preventing famine ( it also did the same in other countries) and the fact that the UK and the US occupying powers also forbade the 'New Germany' from spending any of its budget on defense costs.
If anyone wants to know what helped the "German economic miracle" it was the mis-guided greed of British Govts and British businessmen .....yep the German Steel industry (Krupps etc.) had been bombed flat ....so what did the Brits do ...they sold/gave them brand new efficient steel plants which had been built in inefficient 60 year old British steel mills to create employment for British workers and then wondered why they couldn't compete ..... similar story with the British textile industry , how much modern state of the art equipment did companies like Bulloughs and Northrop sell overseas only to have the buyers turn round and bite the British textile manufactuers on the ass .

Re: What's the use?
 

the USA poured cash into the then West Germany because of the threat of Russian communism.. as they did in Japan.
lets get things striaght..the red army held Berlin ..they took over and then invited the US army in.
the USA had no option other than attcking Russia which they did not use...instead they took the decision to re-build the parts they owned rather than let the then Russian communists take over. we all know the Yanks are obsessed with communities that don't work the way they like.

Re: What's the use?
 

Don't think your argument is valid , look at recent history , billions of aid to Afghanistan and its still a s**t-hole , a few million to Germany , they (the Germans) put it to good use and thrived . :D

Re: What's the use?
 

Back to original thread .....interesting item I came across ....a speech by Winston Churchill made in 1946 calling for the creation of a United States of Europe .

Winston Churchill's speech to the academic Youth - Churchill's Rede 1946 in Zürich - Europainformationen des EUD Internet Online Teams

This was made after 5 months after his famous speech at Fulton Missouri about "an iron curtain descending across Europe ".
Seems British policy on Europe was set long before the 60s

Re: What's the use?
 

my arguments are always valid

Re: What's the use?
 

Do they not let you out that much these days, Mancie? ;) You really are out of touch with the modern world! Do you really think that the only people worried about the new European Constitution and the ever-advancing creep of the Euro Superstate are Tories? Wake up and smell the coffee!

Re: What's the use?
 

Mancie is obsessed with Tories Wynonie, (as in the hatred of:D) but what he doesn't realise is the political system he most favours is totally flawed, all this everybody is equal to the revolution brothers doesn't work now and has never worked in the past, even in the animal kingdom there is always the Alpha Male and Female in any pack. I think the best example is sown in a film which I'm sure will be on the box soon called "Mrs Rawcliffes Revenge" a true story about a Communist living in Leeds in the 1060 who was so disillusioned with Britain he decided to move to the other side of the Iron Curtain. Unfortunately when he got there it wasn't the land of milk and honey he thought it was and he spend the rest of the Cold War helping to smuggle people from East to West, Mrs Rawcliffes revenge is his account of these events

Re: What's the use?
 

Somehow jaysay I get the feeling you might mean the 1960's?

How come your keyboard never seems to work the way you want it to?:)

Re: What's the use?
 

Quite correct Less, the flaming spell check don't correct dates, I did mean 1960s, mind you don't think I can blame the keyboard on this occasion it was all my own work:D

Re: What's the use?
 

cor blimey it's Doctor Mengle...next thing we know you'll be experimenting on twins... carry on then we can all see the truth about Tories.

Re: What's the use?
 

The truth about the Tories Mancie is they are the only ones capable of put right the wrongs always left by Labour, there has never been a successful Labour government in history, they have always left a disaster behind for others the clean up, and believe me this latest shower take the biscuit, we will be left with a massive debt while Gordon swans off back to Scotland and disappear into obscurity

Re: What's the use?
 

Not forgetting the hundreds of Britain's brave young fighting men that they have sacrificed in two illegal wars - and for what?

Re: What's the use?
 

Yup ... I think I'll go along with this .... naked self interest on the part of the US.

Re: What's the use?
 

The US had an agreement with the USSR to meet on the Elber and the US armies arrived,sat on their bahookies and waited for the USSR to show up.

Re: What's the use?
 

By 1945, the western allies would still have been in England trying to figure out how to get across the channel if it had not been for the efforts of Soviet armies in The Great Patriotic War.

Re: What's the use?
 

Big Bad Americans again , amazing how you all dislike us , but are first in-line to play 'monkey see , monkey do " , :D :D

Re: What's the use?
 

How the hell did we get onto pyramid tea bags:confused::confused:

Re: What's the use?
 

you've lost me , what are pyramid tea bags ? :confused: :confused:

Re: What's the use?
 

Re: What's the use?
 

:D :D thanks Less , never knew such things existed , :D

Re: What's the use?
 

...and the parts they did rebuild, turned out to be so appealing that the East Germans had to build a wall to stop their own people from fleeing over there to escape from their socialist "paradise".

As for the Russian communist system not working the way the yanks liked, I would say it didn't work the way most people liked. It was a one party dictatorship which brooked no dissent and sent millions of innocent people to their deaths in labour camps. I know that many leftwingers were apologists for the Soviet system, but most of them have seen the error of their ways now. Of course, I realise that you're still living in your own version of the 1930's class struggle, so I suppose you've some catching up to do. ;)

Re: What's the use?
 

Trying to catch up is very hard Wynonie when your head is buried so deep in the sand, Ostrich syndrome is alive a kicking in Bermondsey

Re: What's the use?
 

Burmans? - a new supermarket selling ostrich meat?

Re: What's the use?
 

Check out the post now Margaret

Re: What's the use?
 

The Brussel's Nitwits now want to abolish the 'Union Flag' and replace it with some nondescript logo to 'celebrate' the instition of Europe. I'd rather we invaded Normandy again and kicked some sense into the politically correct elite who are intent on wiping out any form of independence for it's member states.

Re: What's the use?
 

If we really are to become a true European community (which I still fear will end in another bout of hostilities) then the Brussel Sprouts should set an example and be prepared to dig their hands into their bulging back pockets to help out those unfortunates whose lives and homes have been devastated by the terrible floods engulfing Cumbria in particular. Bumbling Brown, meantime has offered a desultory ONE MILLION from government coffers, which won't even buy enough buckets and mops to begin the clearing up process.

Re: What's the use?
 

Do any of you lot know where I can get an avatar of a euro flag being burnt? Or failing that, one being used as toilet paper? Post the link, please.

Re: What's the use?
 

Here are some

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/ima...rning_flag.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Xns3mMGw2f...00/burning.jpg

http://www.bant-shirts.com/images/no...rning-flag.gif

Re: What's the use?
 

Like it, Neil....LIKE IT!

Re: What's the use?
 

Now wer'e talking!!!!!!

Re: What's the use?
 

How about this.

http://chromatism.net/current/images/eussr.gif