Degree Level for nursing
 

BBC NEWS | Health | Nursing to become graduate entry

Its been announced that as from 2013 anyone wanting to enter the nursing profession will have to be educated to degree level, I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not. To me nursing has always been about vocation, it takes a very special person to take on looking after the sick, I for one couldn't do it. Okay there has to be a pretty high level of education in this day and age, but to insist on the level may put off many young people from entering the profession, therefore leaving the NHS dangerously understaffed

Re: Degree Level for nursing
 

I heard this too and I am a little confused. Does it mean that someone has to have a degree before they enter the nursing profession or does it mean that after 3 years training to be a nurse you end up a bachelor of nursing? If it is the former, are people with a degree, say joint honours (1st class) in media and lesbian studies qualified to walk on to wards and then stick needles in patient's bums? And if it is the latter, will people spend their years training in the lecture room on ethnic and gay awareness courses? Will they know how to do hospital corners or empty bedpans...can anyone help to clear this up?

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as its been in Wales since 2004, reckon the best course would be to consult wi the taffys, management n nurses before embarking on this.

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I think it means that they must be educated to a degree level, not necessarily to actually have a degree, but to have that level of education.

I think that it is a backward step. Nursing is a practical skill.....needs a hands on approach.
I am glad I did my nursing when I did, because with these restrictions I would never have got a chance.
I loved the job because it was never the same two days running.
I loved dealing with patients, and doing my best for them.
I think that people who have a degree level of education willp robably choose careers that are more lucrative and with a better career structure, and I can see that the basic tasks (toileting, btm washing, showering, feeding patients) will be delegated to the care assistant, HCA, auxiliary....and that isn't good. You get to know the most about your patients by being involved in every aspect of their care.....which includes the mundane(although I didn't find these tasks so)tasks.

If a person wishes to do the technical stuff, and they are educated to degree level, let them become doctors.
Nursing care(care, being the operative word here) has not improved by making the nurse better educated.....the giving of care is intuitive, and common sense based.

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Was hoping you would reply to this Margaret, and I have to say, having been some one who's been on the other side of the bed pan or so to say,:D I totally agree with everything you've said, think there's a saying in the nursing profession these days about the new high tech nurses "too posh to wash" can't see things getting better anytime soon:rolleyes:

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Yes, Jaysay.......I was sister on the ward when some of these degree students were allocated to us for their educational needs, they did not want to be involved with basic care tasks.
They wanted to do ECG's, they wanted to do other technical stuff, but they didn't want to do pre-op shaves, toileting of patients, helping with hygiene needs, feeding patients, wiping bottoms.
They really didn't want to be nurses, they wanted to be technicians....to flit in and do a task they considered to be commensurate with their level of education and then go on to the next technical task.
What is more, some of them felt that the auxiliaries, care assistants,HCA's were beneath them.....but believe me these care assistants, auxiliaries, HCA's had the very best bit of the job......actually nursing patients....making a difference to their day, making them feel comfortable.......and of course helping them to return to full health.
these degree students gave the impression that the auxiliaries were educationally inferior to them.......the experience that they had gained by looking after countless patients was not considered to be 'education'.

I have had the pleasure of working with some very capable, kind, caring auxilairy nurses.
I learned a lot from them....because they had good common sense and a caring attitude....and I know who I would like to be looked after by if ever I were ill....and it wouldn't necessarily be a degree educated Nurse.

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I think it's great if nurses want to do a degree, if they can find the time inbetween working, as Lettie has recently done, but I don't necessarily think academic qualifications make a nurse a good nurse.

I've recently come into contact with some nurses with no people skills at all, and who shouldn't be employed to deal with people at all, nevermind nurse them. On the other hand I've seen auxillaries who provided wonderful nursing care.

Re: Degree Level for nursing
 

Bring back Matrons.

Though would a male one be called a Patron?

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Bringing back matrons/patrons doesn't work....the structure of nursing was different in the days of the real Matron........and you can never back pedal to those days from the past......there has been far to much political meddling.

I am not against nurses getting a degree if that is what they want to do, but I am against requiring people who want to become nurses from having to have that level of education. It will exclude many candidates who would make excellent(practical) nurses because of their perceived lack of educational ability.

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I can add nothing to what Margaret P said, she sums it all up perfectly. We need nurses who smooth brows as well as nurses who know how much nasty medicine to give.

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Can't agree more Margaret about auxiliaries(Oggies) I have come across some crackers over the years, most of whom have now retired, mores the pity, they were worth their weight in gold on a busy ward, especially at night if there was a run on. In fact I was actually talking to an lass who was an Oggy on E3, during my latest stay in the Royal, I've seen her quite a few times recently, she decided to pack in the nursing side and trained to be phlebotomist (think that's the official title, better known as the Dracula squad) but we still remembered the old days on E3

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so will we now be paying for the polish etc to get a degree so they can be nurses here i wonder :rolleyes:

edit:

i wonder if part of teh degree will be how to wash your hands

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I think it's just part of the trend towards having degrees for everything ... Hamburger University, the intellectual and philosophical core of McDonald's, is a case in point. Hamburger Flipping 101 is a pre-requisite for Advanced Mustard Application:rolleyes::D

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Bah! When was the last time any of you actually saw a 'real nurse' doing any nursing?

Those that do all the 'nursing' jobs like :- looking after patients (soon to be known as customers..I kid you not), changing beds, cleaning up bodily fluids, enemas, shaving, etc..etc..etc.. are not in fact qualified nurses..they are care assistants in all but name, and deserve recognition for their unrewarded work.

'Real nurses' are the ones stood at 'nurse stations' who stare at you, with vacant looks on their face, should you ask anything about the welfare of people on their wards. They are the ones that spout platitudes like 'I don't know which ward he's on now, I wasn't on shift when he moved' or 'I'm training here, I usually work in the <insert greek word here> department'. They are overpaid, underworked and spend most of their time bleating about car parking, unsociable hours and how hard done to they are.

Its these 'real nurses' that will be educated to degree level..and why not..they do beggar all else, they may as well jump on the 'advanced mustard application'(©Eric 2009) bandwagon

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Well I have just got back from Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool and believe you me the nurses on the ward I was visiting were all doing the jobs caring nurses should be prepared to do without question. IE besides caring for the children on the ward they were cleaning beds and cots that had been vacated, making them up ready for the next patients, bringing sick bowls and toilet pans to the kids that needed them etc. You don't need a degree to be a nurse but you do need to care about the patients in your care IMHO.

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I retired from nursing seven years ago........I was one of the 'real' nurses, even though, as Sister on the ward, I had managerial responsibilities, I liked making the beds, doing the medicines, bed-bathing.......all these were the jobs where you got to know your patient.......I would see my ladies every day I was on duty...which was five days out of seven.......whereas some of my Staff Nurses would do 3 shifts of 12 hours and consequently would not know their patients.
I consider that I was a good nurse, and many people told me that I was.......I nursed patients how I would want my mother cared for.

I was a late starter to nursing, had no paper qualifications (and as such when these new directives are implemented, would not stand a chance).....paper qualifications mean absolutely nothing if the desire to care for people is not there.

Degree Education does not lead to better standards of care.

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No more Matrons:eek: I can hear Hattie Jaques spinning in her grave.:D

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I have no doubt whatsoever that you found your true vocation and were good at your job. Even 7 years ago, you must admit you were in the minority, nowadays its even worse. Nurses think they are some kind of elite, deserving of respect and Florence Nightingale kudos without putting in the lamp time. Let me give an example I recently came across.

Anyone being admitted from any type of care home is expected to provide a care staff to give care to them because the nurses cant cope with care related matters, they have no idea of how to deal with dementia or incontinence, let alone autism or learning disabilities. These care staff have only NVQ's as a qualification and are looked down on by these nurses with their medical background and are offered no help at all whilst looking after their charges in hospital. Yet these carers have more training, more hands on care, more consideration for the people they look after, more stringent demands on continuous professional development and deal with far more issues in a single day than nurses deal with in a month. And these people are paid probably about a 1/3 as much as your average whiny nurse, and work more unsociable hours.

Guess who I want to care for me when I reach my dotage?

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I like to think that I led by example, and that my nursing team knew what was expected of them....and that was to give care.
Also, at that time there were still a lot of nurses around who trained under the old scheme...which was a bit like an apprenticeship.
Now many of those nurses have retired, so the current nurses have had a different kind of training......and sadly most of them come into nursing for the wrong reasons.
They come into nursing to pay the mortgage(and I am not saying that nurses should not get a reasonable wage) rather than to make a difference to peoples lives.

ALL nurses on the wards work unsocial hours.....it comes with the territory.......and my suggestion would be to those who don't like it.....leave and do something else.
Patients will always need to be looked after.

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why do we need nurses these days, my doctors receptionists seem pretty qualified to determin wether i need a doctor or not so why not sling them into the hospitals and put people into the doctors to do what they are supposed to do which is to answer the phone , make an appointment and under no circumstances ask the person whats wrong with them :)

we dont go to teh doctors for a fun day out , times are hard but as of yet sitting amongst other sick people hasnt yet become a day trip

oh and not havin whats up with you discussed within earshot of other patients as soon as your backs turned would be nice :rolleyes:

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Are the receptionists educated to degree level then?

seriously though, if you have evidence that your condition is being discussed by these people then you need to report it to the practice manager.

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Well actually a fortnight ago Guinness, the nursing staff on ward B8 at the Royal were first class, Its obvious from what you say you haven't had any personal need for hospital treatment lately or you wouldn't slagging nurses of, maybe if you need their care anytime soon you'll find out just what a first class job the do:(

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Was reading in the paper this morning about these degree courses and the Journo came up with a very good byline "You don't learn compassion at university, think that says it all really:)

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You're missing the point, I'm not knocking the quality of care put out by 'nursing staff' just the amount and quality of hands on care meted out by 'qualified nurses'.

You state 'nursing staff' on ward B8...how many of them were qualified nurses and how many were auxiliary/anciliary staff? Which of these spent the most time looking after your personal needs?

Your observation about me needing hospital treatment recently is incorrect. On top of which I have spent quite some time in various hospitals in East Lancashire over the past few years. And guess what...the non-nurses usually turn out to be more considerate, more caring and better at the job.

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I must admit, I read the report slightly differently.

I understood it to mean that nurses would start their nursing course, which would be a three year degree course involving some practical and some theoretical training.

I didn't read it to be that they could have any degree level education and then start their nursing training.

Perhaps, it was down to the way different papers interpreted the report.

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The discussion I heard on the Radio did say this Gayle; that it would be incorporated with practical nursing, and they were not going to lose sight of this.

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Nurses appear to be doing tasks that were once only done by doctors.
This saves on costs of employing more doctors, but it leads to a 'class system' amongst nurses.
This means that more than one nurse is needed to care for a patient, and the 'upper class' wont do the 'lower class' duties.(demarcation)
For most of you, this system has always been so, but when the NHS originated there was only one type of nurse - an SRN, who did everything for that patients care.
The old system meant better personal care. Responsibility wasn't divided, so lapses in care couldn't be blamed on others.

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There were State Enrolled Nurses as well Margaret......they were phased out a few years ago.....mainly by retirement and a lot of the former SEN's trained up to become SRN's

Yes, the report has become clearer, and it does appear that Nurses will train for degree status.......the training to be an SRN/RGN has always been 3years, but apparently the new training will concentrate more on the academic stuff and there will only be limited time spent on the wards.
I see this as being a poor way to teach a practical skill......practical skills need to be earned through practical experience........we are going to have people turned out who may be academically good, but have very limited practical skills.

Another thing is why do a degree in Nursing? If you are set to do a degree go and do something that is more lucrative.

The article you have read Jaysay, echoes my sentiments entirely.......I think that this writer must have access to my brain's hard drive.

Re: Degree Level for nursing
 

I have to agree with Margaret P on all of her posts here. Nursing is very different now than it was when I trained in 1987, way before degree courses. Much of the ward work has now become admin, there's a piece of paper for everything these days, and most days are spent covering your back against litigation. Hospital insurance premiums are sky high, but can be reduced if you show that things are being done a certain way, hence a massive paper trail.

Reductions in junior doctors hours has meant that nurses and midwives now do some of their roles, cannulation, suturing, male catheterisations, venepuncture and many others. Those nurses who are trained in these skills are therefore taken away from looking after individual patients in favour of performing these tasks, ticking boxes on paper and filing it in the notes.

Most of my role now is admin and ward and crisis management. I still have my fair share of patients and they get brilliant care. I know this because of the lovely cards and feeback that I get from them. I did a Bsc (hons) part time whilst working full time. It was bloody hard work but I am proud to have my degree. I am also proud to have trained both in nursing and midwifery in the traditional way and learned loads of practical skills, skills which I now pass on to my degree students.

Unfortunately, without a degree, in most professions these days there is no hope of promotion. Only by earning a senior role can you have any hope of making a difference on your ward. A difference that I try to make every day and am proud to do so.

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There were usually two Auxiliary nurses on duty during the day that did the jobs they have always done making beds, bed pans, making brews, giving meals out at, the other 5 or 6 nurses did the medical tasks, I certainly didn't have any problems what so ever, except for one day when there was a miner glitch with medication

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[quote=Margaret Pilkington;762585]There were State Enrolled Nurses as well Margaret......they were phased out a few years ago.....mainly by retirement and a lot of the former SEN's trained up to become SRN's[quote]


MargaretP is right again :o- SENs originated in 1943 as this doc shows-
Family history | Nurses
In 1943, the Nurses Act established the Roll of Assistant Nurses, with a requirement of two years training

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thats cos miners are covered in coal dust,= cross contamination.:D

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I am sure that I was told that some Enrolled Nurses had never sat an exam, or done formal training, and that they had become Enrlled Nurses because they had been auxilliaries for such a long time.

As a student I worked with one of these E.N.'s and she was a tartar...by that I mean that everything had to be done just so........with the patients comfort being paramount.
Lots of my own colleagues didn't like her, but I thought that her ways were right....and that patients comfort was important.

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:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:couldn't resist could ya cashy:D

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i believe nurses will now be required to take a degree in origami so they can re arrange beds to accomodate more patients :)

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Or Sorcery to create more by magic accyman:D

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I don't agree with that.

Everyone can make a difference by doing their job to the best of their ability.

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having served my time on quite a few wards Neil I have to agree, a hospital ward is run by a team, from Consultants, Sister, SHO, HO, down to the cleaners and ward aide, they all pull together, to make a well run unit, well that's how it used to be until the men in suits came along, now you have to wonder what matters most the patient or targets:rolleyes:

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While I agree that everyone has a part to play, I believe that a good leader of the team is essential for success....and a leader who has their finger on the pulse of everyday happenings is without doubt one of the major factors in whether the ward is actively managed.

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I agree Margaret, a great example of that was the old E3 at Queens Park, the Sister on that ward was the old type sister didn't stand no messing and her word was gospel, sadly they are few and far between now, oh and she didn't have a degree, just years of experience and nursing nous

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would that have been Sister Clark??
She used to terrify me when I was a student, but she gave me a wonderful report....and she knew exactly what she was talking about because she frequently rolled her sleeves up and did the bed and the baths with junior nurses like me....she was a really good example and a brilliant teacher.

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So what happened to the "Sister Clark's"?

Re: Degree Level for nursing
 

They, like me. retired.
She was from the 'old' school of nursing.(I am talking about 1973/74...a long time ago now)

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Ok. I am currently a Carer in a sheltered housing scheme. The district nurses that come are fantastic, and do all the jobs that is needed. My Grandfather is currently in Royal Blackburn and the nursing staff have been brilliant, cannot praise them highly enough.

I start my Nursing degree next year, with my background as a carer I will have no problem, and will enjoy all the tasks involved (yes that includes toileting, pre-op, washing and making beds)

Let me tell you about a current nursing degree. It takes 3 years. You only have 2 exams throughout the three years. It is exactly 50/50 of placement and time spent in university, and yes Gayle you are correct you can't have any degree, you need a degree in nursing to become a nurse.

It angers me that it has been said that people can't become nurses as they haven't got the qualifications to do a degree....bloody well get them then, if you really want to be a nurse. I have had to take 4 different courses, travelling to Edge Hill University in Ormskirk 3 times a week for 4 months - this takes 2 buses and 2 trains and costs about £15 a time. That is how committed I am to becoming a nurse. I am a single parent and pay for childcare for whilst im at uni.

So, when i'm qualified, if nobody wants to be treated by me because i'm a nurse so obviously all i want to do is the technical/medical stuff and stand a my nurses station all day.....then dont come onto a ward that im working on!!! Because I can tell you this now that is not how i will be!

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Lolly, it is good to hear that you are so determined to be a nurse, and that you know the value being a good care giver.
I have had experience of the other kind of nurses, and I am sure that in your career you will come up against those who do only want to do the technical stuff...and believe me, they will irritate the proverbial out of you.

There is nothing so rewarding as knowing that you have given comfort to someone who has been in a dark place, that you have made a difference,not just to them but to their relatives as well.
Good luck to you Lolly...and keep up the good work.

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I heard a damning account from a labour member on this, even some the governments’ own party are violently against this. “Left to lie on fouled night clothes!” was one thing she told us.

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Because we all believe what Labour tells us!! :rolleyes:

Thankyou Margaret. I know there are that type of nurse about, but some in this thread have claimed all nurses are like that and would prefer to be treated by others, not that they don't do a fantatic job, if anyone knows what its like to be a care giver first and foremost its me.

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I am a carer!

I am just about to post on Gordon Conochies’ blog, he works for the Princess Royal Trust for Carers.

I cannot ask there as I was banned for protesting about a death threat and constant attacks made on me by the owner of a hate site that they went onto give help and support too. They just don’t care!


They just don’t care!


They just don’t care that carers read the comments in here. They just don’t care!

They just don’t care that you learn they support hate by allowing attacks of Clive Arnold made by friends of the hate site owner to stay on their boards . They just don’t care!

They just don’t care that you learn that they allow death threats on their boards. They just don’t care!

They just don’t care that I ask these questions. They just don’t care!

They just don’t care that you know they ignore emails from me about abolishing child carers. They just don’t care!

http://carersblog.wordpress.com/2009...e/#comment-159

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A good website for carers.

http://i899.photobucket.com/albums/a...ll4usflier.jpg

It may be off topic but this is for I am a care giver and any others .

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Training in a pilchard packing factory? Head to toe in one bed!

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i don't care much when i read posts n don't know what the hell yer rabbiting about.:rolleyes:

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Me niether:confused: .... I could eat Alphabet Soup and defecate more sense;):D

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Well I've read it three times and I do not care to try and read it again.Makes no sense to me at all:confused::confused::confused:

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Of course everyone can make a difference to direct patient care. I was referring to the more cultural aspect of general hospital work. As a junior nurse I was totally fed up with being brow beaten by senior staff who wouldn't change practices because.....'This is the way we've always done it etc.' even though evidence showed that it would be better done another way. That is just one kind of example and very difficult to change things for the better as a junior unless, you have a supportive senior colleague to back you up.

When I was newly qualified I found supportive senior colleagues to be in short supply to be perfectly honest, especially when it came to changing practices. Now, as a senior, I try to encourage junior staff with their ideas and encourage them to come up with the evidence that backs up their ideas. Getting a degree gave me new confidence and motivation and I have no qualms about challenging bad practice wether it be from nursing colleagues, consultants or managers and that's the kind of difference I was referring to :D

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heres a phone card , go ring someone who gives a fcuk ya demented sod lol :rolleyes:

http://www.speakling.com/images/prod...one%20Card.jpg

say hi to gordon whoever the hell he is :confused:

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Stay clear of the spaghetti and try fish, it is said that it helps the brain. You may then be able to read deeper than just the surface, they don’t care!

Some people do not care, they see a job of work and nothing more than a piggy bank, a money pit, they have no respect for the job, none for the employers nor for any they come in contact with. Far to many now are only too willing to do the minimum of work for the maximum of money and they just don’t care that you know that!

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I'd love to here you say that to anyone I work with!! I don't know where you work but that certainly does not apply to anybody I work with.

Its virtually impossible to do the minimum amount of work in my job. We all work bloody hard.

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You actually prove the point I made earlier in the thread.

You are the exact type of person that I want looking after me.

You are a 'mere' carer/support worker (whatever the new PC word is).... BUT....

You won't leave me in a wet bed, i'll get a cup of tea in a clean cup, the floor of my room will be clean, I wont miss my medication, I'll be clean, I'll be fed, you'll notice if soomething is wrong with me.

You have more up to date training, more people looking over your shoulder ensuring you do the job properly, more paperwork, worse hours than nurses, more t's to cross and i's to dot, more hoops to jump through, you are on crap wages (around half of a nurse), you are often understaffed (because the people you work for are in it for the profit)....you work BLOODY hard!...ain't no way a carer/support worker can do a minimum amount.

If it needs doing you have to do it, you cant blame it on the cleaner/cook/auxiliary/laundry person...because you are more often than not all 4, the buck stops with you.

You do the job because you care.

You are what true 'nursing' is all about.

(And you would have blown the whistle at Basildon and Thurrock)

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I did say some people, and the post after yours rather proves that point does it not? To get to that stage there had to be more than just a couple happy to skive.

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Hi all. I think webglynne has that effect on people. He has been going on and on about this so called "Death Threat for months and when I asked about it, apparently it was an popular Italian proverb that basically says: "hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil" . I think he needs to invest in a better Italian - English dictionary. The poor fellow was being advised to look before he leaped, so to speak. Sadly it seems he still hasnt quite got the hang of it...