Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Interesting letter in the Observer this week from Mr. Les Bond who suggests that the proposed panopticon sculpture group intended for the Coppice is a waste of taxpayers and ratepayers money. He suggests instead…well, I’ll let him speak for himself:

“It is obvious that they and their supporters are oblivious to the fact that the top of the Coppice is an area of outstanding historical importance, in that, during their training, the legendary Accrington Pals created a trench system up there. Those trenches are still in evidence and are of enormous historical importance to the townand to the descendants of those members of the East Lancashire Regiment who fought in the Great War. I earnestly suggest to Hynburn Council and the people of Accrington that we steal a march on these panopticon supporters by declaring the top of the Coppice an area of outstanding local historical importance, have the trenches surveyed and excavated to their original condition and then shout to the world that Accrington is more than just football and Tiffany and bricks. We could have the trenches, real history brought to life.”



What an absolutely cracking idea ! Well done Les! :engsmil:



If the estimable Mr Rix (‘Richy’ to his friends, ‘Croesus’ to the tax man) is serious about encouraging tourism in Hyndburn, wouldn’t it be a good idea for us to have something for people to look at and do while they are here? An open air museum based on these trenches, with a small purpose built museum at the bottom of the coppice would bring folk flocking in from all corners! And it’s something that would attract outside funding – that should make him prick up his ears.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

And while we are at it, what about a museum of the history of the Textile Industry in Hyndburn???

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I read the letter AB and I have to say it is a fantastic idea as is your own! If we are going to have a tourist industry then lets utilise the very things that made this area what it is/was.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Excellent idea - and while we're at it lets have an easy way for people to get up there. Some people find the climb very difficult if not impossible. Even at the back of the Coppice where the "new" road goes through there is a layby and a pathway but although it starts off gentle it does get steeper towards the top. Yet not much farther along there is a gentler sloping path from the opposite direction but nowhere at the bottom to officially park. Perhaps a small car park there could be possible? If visitors were able to drive, park and then walk up a gentle incline they would be more inclined to go up there (excuse the pun).

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

wot a brilliant idea, i like most accringtonians have sat back & let it decay round me, i will back and applaud all who have the patience to put such brilliant ideas forewards , lets hope that h.b.c. go some way to listening , thank you :thumbs up:

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I agree, the trenches are still very much evident up the coppice. This should be utilised as a historical site of interest instead of some expensive eyesore being plonked on the top of it.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I have put together a brief letter to 'Richy' Rix at HBC to give you something to work with, feel free to copy it or change it.
Please add your name, print it and send it! They won't do anything unless we all make a noise.

Come on chaps, I can hear the whistle, it's time to get our helmets on and 'go over the top'!


LETTER

__________________________________________________ ____________
Mr. N. Rix
Director
Hyndburn FIRST
The Globe Centre
St James' Square
Accrington
BB5 0RE




Dear Mr. Rix,

Re: Panopticon Proposals

As you are no doubt aware, there has been considerable local dissent regarding the proposed siting of the Panopticon Sculpture on the edge of the Coppice in Accrington, as exemplified in a recent letter to the editor of The Accrington Observer and Times, dated 6th August2004, by Mr. L. Bond. I should like to endorse Mr Bond’s ideas and commend him for his public spiritedness.

If the council are in earnest in wishing to encourage tourism in the area then it would seem to be folly of the worst sort to allow such an important part of the town’s heritage to decay any further, when, with a little thought, it could be turned to the benefit of the borough.
It would also be of benefit to the borough if a small museum were to be created at the foot of the Coppice to illuminate and explain the history and experiences of the young men who fought in the Great War and also the experiences of those they left behind at home. It strikes me that we have, for too long, allowed our story to be told by people from outside the borough in books, plays and films. How much better would it be if we could begin to tell that story ourselves.

I feel sure that there are any number of independent funding bodies who would be only to happy to assist in planning and funding such a worthwhile educational and cultural enterprise.

I look forward to hearing your views on this matter.

Yours sincerely,

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I do not wish to be negative about any development around the area of coppice,
but after recent events (the bandstand)for example.Anything constructive in the
coppice and surounding area,s would be a vandals dream.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I agree that the mindless minority present a problem, but we cannot sit on our hands and do nothing. Besides, How much damage can they do to a hole in the ground?

I have the distinct feeling that perhaps I shouldn't have said that; tempting fate and all that.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Probably less than they could do to a panopticon.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

The problem you face with this project would be the level of preservation as it is now, and how would you conduct the re excavation of the site. This process could in itself, be destructive.

Your also talking about an archaeological site that would need to be protected not only from the mindless little B******s who seek to destroy our heritage, HBC and the local vandals. But also the elements of sun, rain, snow and wind. The wildlife on the coppice would also play a part in the destruction once the archaeology is exposed.

But your main threat would be the tourists themselves. Their management of these nice people would need to be a primary concern. Picture all those dads that have read a book about the First World War demonstrating “going over the Top” to their little darlings, who following them over, destroying the trench in the process.

If people can’t have the “hands on experience”, they may not be interested in coming to see them in the first place.

I suggest a full consultative discussion should now take place in the Heritage Forum as how we can achieve this………….

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Some valid points there Doug

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I love this sort of stuff willow, but we must be careful, good intentions and all that. That said this can be another excuse for me to come over and have a look around....

Nice to have you back by the way.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

We used to play up there as children and probably did a fair old bit of damage to the trenches then. I remember my Dad trying to convince me that Kaiser Bill had invaded Accy and been defeated on top of the Coppice!

:) I'm only back temporarily - off again on Monday.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I have mixed feelings about this. One part of me says that we should do our best to preserve and protect what is left. This would mean sealing the site, sort of like preserving it in aspic and it would become Accrington's equivalent of Stonehenge, bereft of purpose, save as a museum exhibit.

The other part of me quite likes the idea of dad's and sons climbing in and out of the trenches, and that part of me also feels that the lads who originally dug these trenches might feel the same way too. There is no substitute for learning how a thing works than getting your hands mucky.

It's a potentially contentious issue and one where hopefully we would be able to strike a happy medium.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I was told that the trenches were dug out during the World war two,to stop enemy
aircraft from landing,and once a upon a time there two cannons pointing out over
Accrington,they were next to stone monument.
I am also told they were vandalised and rolled down the coppice,the wooden gun mounts survived and they were still there a few years ago.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I maybe mistaken about this but I'm sure I once heard that the cannons where removed to make bullets during WW2.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Again excellent points bob. What as been missing is the education. Maybe people would respect what we preserve more if they fully understood the why’s, where, and when’s.

We all know about the Great War, but little about it and the realities of death in such conflicts. We know of the sacrifice, but not what it felt like to suffer the shelling, bullets and gas. Not to mention the cold, wet and fear that these man and boys faced in our name, and that is still true for us today 90 years on.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I remember the wooden cannon mounts or whatever you call them being there when I was a kid. I never knew what happened to them.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I do agree with these points Doug, but it leads me to question why is it, in other countries, natural and historical phenomena are on show to the public and they don't get vandalised. I remember visiting Whakarewarewa and Hell's Gate in New Zealand. Wonderful thermal natural reserves and not a sign of misuse or vandalism. You can buy sweetcorn in Whaka and lower it into the thermal pools to cook, thus providing a "hands on" experience. These places are properly maintained and supervised. There's even a sign in Hell's Gate stating that if you throw anything is into the boiling mud pools or geysers, you will be asked to go and retrieve it.... People just don't do it because the place is properly staffed and supervised. If we had a heritage site open to vandalism it would be purely the mismanagement of security and supervision. These trenches have survived the elements for donkeys years and hand's on experience shouldn't be a problem with the right maintenence.
The only drawback is the incompetence of HBC who would expect to make money from it to fund their generous retirement packages, but put nothing back into the preservation of the site.:)

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

If some sculpture or edifice is planted on the Coppice, it would need to be robust, to deny the local scrotes their moment of glory. The Angel of the North is one such example, another is the B for Bang sculpture currently being erected outside the City of Manchester Stadium.

Build it big, and build it tough! Or it will be demolished and covered in aerosol within weeks!

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I agree wholeheartedly lettie. Tell me did you find these qualities on your visits to Whakarewarewa and Hell's Gate in New Zealand.

Commitment to education, a strong sense of responsibility instilled into the local community and above all else a strong sense of partnership, respect and dedication to its people by the local authorities. What is it that we are missing here?

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Is it possible that the real thing we are missing is any sort of effective punishment for those who damage and vandalise?

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Good points Lettie. But consider this: Blackpool Pleasure Beach, Alton Towers, Longleat House, Woburn Abbey, and indeed almost any other tourist attraction you care to name, all have thousands upon thousands of visitors every year and yet have little or no problem with vandalism. The reason, as Lettie points out, is adequate supervision by both hired security staff and parents.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I hate to be a killjoy, but I don`t want the Coppice, my Coppice invaded by tourists, the local yobbo`s and "art" forced on us by outside agencies in return for renovating the paths. I was up there this afternoon (Saturday) in the sunshine reading my book, chatting to the few people passing by. A tranquil oasis in walking distance of my home.
A panoptican!! The local morons have already burned down Oak Hill Parks bandstand and the shelter on the top of the Coppice is in a dangerous state so no work of "art" would survive. Tellingly the Coppice is an unknown area for the local councillors excepting Ian Ormerod,though I stand to be corrected.

HANDS OFF OUR COPPICE!!

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Unfortunately, we've gone beyond retribution. The bleeding heart liberal society would want us to understand the poor little blighters. That's why we need to build things tough enough to negate their worst intentions.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

All those qualities are very evident in NZ. The population are largely immigrant and are entitled to nothing. If you emigrate there, you have to be able to support yourself therefore people work hard and value living there. Many jobs are created looking after the natural surroundings and a most of the thermal reserves and other attractions charge a small fee for entry, thus providing wages for staff. Children are educated in a safe environment, bullying is rare and my nephew loves his school. They are taught how to care for the environment, how to protect themselves from the sun/heat. Outdoor activities feature largely in a childs education and gives them an appreciation for their natural surroundings. When a child starts school they are given a mentor (an older child in that school) This older child is responsible for the integration of the younger child into the school so the younger children are looked after and never bullied.
Legal action is rare, if you have an accident it's because you're gormless, ambulance chasing lawyers do not yet exist there. Nobody ever sues anyone and there is no money grabbing culture.
They do have their share of problems, the NZ nationals complain about the amount of immigrants, the Maori are brassed off due to land issues and tend to live in the poorer parts of the cities and find it difficult to get jobs, alcoholism is quite widespread amongst some Maori communities and leads them into trouble, but on the whole it's a very civilised country and provides a lovely lifestyle for those fortunate enough to be able to emigrate there and appreciate it.:)

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Sounds like a version of paradise. It seems that the 'Mother Country' has a lot to learn.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Not only the Accrington Pals trained on the Coppice. There used to be a rifle range up there, .65 Lead Musket Balls, .577 Bullets from Sneider Rifles. .450 Bullets from Martini Henry Rifles, & Mk I & Mk II .303 bulets have been found up there in the past. They were once on display in Accrington Library.

Retlaw.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Sorry, Retlaw, I'm not too familiar with the different types of guns and ammunition, except in the very general sense. Could you give us some idea of the dates of these finds?

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

[QUOTE=Acrylic-bob]Interesting letter in the Observer this week from Mr. Les Bond who suggests that the proposed panopticon sculpture group intended for the Coppice is a waste of taxpayers and ratepayers money. He suggests instead…well, I’ll let him speak for himself:

“It is obvious that they and their supporters are oblivious to the fact that the top of the Coppice is an area of outstanding historical importance, in that, during their training, the legendary Accrington Pals created a trench system up there. Those trenches are still in evidence and are of enormous historical importance to the townand to the descendants of those members of the East Lancashire Regiment who fought in the Great War. I earnestly suggest to Hynburn Council and the people of Accrington that we steal a march on these panopticon supporters by declaring the top of the Coppice an area of outstanding local historical importance, have the trenches surveyed and excavated to their original condition and then shout to the world that Accrington is more than just football and Tiffany and bricks. We could have the trenches, real history brought to life.”



What an absolutely cracking idea ! Well done Les! :engsmil:

Not only the Accrington Pals trained on the Coppice. There used to be a rifle range up there, .65 Lead Musket Balls, .577 Bullets from Sneider Rifles. .450 Bullets from Martini Henry Rifles, & Mk I &...

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

.65 Musket Balls were circa 1860. .577 Snieder were fired from Brown Bess Muskets & Rifles converted to Breech Loaders circa 1865-1870. The .450 Martini Henry's were issued to British troops around the time of the Zulu wars (ever watched the film Zulu, Michael Caine, Battle of Rourkes Drift.) The .303 Enfield known as the long Lee Enfield was introduced in the late 1880. They were used in the Boer War. That was the first rifle issued to the Pals in 1915. The S.M.L.E was first issued along with a new cartridge the Mk7 in 1910, but had not been made in sufficient numbers for the beginning of the 14-18 war.

Walter

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Good stuff Retlaw, Living history in our own back yard. I love it. Just a point, wasn’t the ranges up there still active in the mid 60s, possibly for the cadets. I can remember going up there digging in sand banks for rounds? Lots of .22 and 303 and the occasion spent case.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Great stuff. The question that intrigues me is why were people firing Brown Bess's up there in 1860-70 ? Or is it rather the case that the 'pals' were given anything that came to hand to commence their training with?

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

It's years since I was last up on the top of the coppice, but I do seem to recall that these trenches are about 50 yards long, straight, parallel and 4 or 5 deep with gaps of 30 yards between (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)....If I am right on this, then they would bear little resemblance to the trench system as evolved by 1916 when the Pals arrived in France. In any instance, they would have had relatively little training in them given that they would have been constructed sometime between October 1914 & February 1915 when the battalion left Accy.

The real question to raise though is this - are these the only surviving WW1 practice trenches in the country? I am not aware of any others....certainly, if they are unique then there is real potential here for an educational/tourist attraction. I just hope that HBC, for once, may possibly respond to what is an imaginative idea instead of throwing money away on an endless trail of crackpot schemes.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

This along with many other excellent contributions is what’s needed to galvanise support for such important preservation. So, as anyone considered having a chat to Andrew Jackson on the subject to confirm what’s known about what’s up there, and how about an approach to HBC before the B***** do ow’t daft with it.


Suggestions………………..

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

No, what you are refering to is the Hapton Scout Range. I shot in competitions on that range back in the 1950's. It was closed down in the 1960's, the range has become dangerous because of land slides at the back of the butts, a large quantity of rock had slid into the backstop causing ricochets. We did a test with some tracer & it faied its range safety certification, so the army closed it down.

Walter

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

No, those Brown bess's were muzzle loader & would have been fired in the 1860 & before.
Lots of towns had military volunteer rifle clubs. There were many men who joined the pals in 1914 who had previous military service. Argyle St. Barracks was already in existence long before 1914. Accrington & Church Artillery had also been going for number of years pre 1914.
Walter

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Why would any one need to contact andrew jackson abut anything to do with the pals.

William Turner did the original research into the history of the 11th Battalion East Lancs Regt. Accrington Pals. I went to school with quite a of the pals survivors children & when I left school at 14, I worked alongside some of the surviviors at Lang Bridges & Howard & Bulloughs. My fathers brother was an original pal. If you want to know some thing, the saying is "The Horses Mouth" don't go talking to his arse.

Walter

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Nice one Retlaw!

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Very nicely put Walter,


My reference to Andrew Jackson was based on his interest on the subject and the fact that he give me information relating to my great grandfather and saved me a fortune in research costs in the process.

I am however always happy to defer to those who have clear experience of these matter.

Can you tell Walter, did you come across any of my family, William Archibald Douglas, He lost a leg in 1917 or his son, Tommy Douglas. Another one would be William “Billiy” Birtwhisle the three of them had connects with LangBridges & Howard & Bulloughs between the wars.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I have the following in my files.
William DOUGLAS
Pte. 45676. 22nd Labour Corps.
lived at 23a Stanley St Acc.

No record of a Tommy or Thomas DOUGLAS serving in WWI.
There are Two BIRTWISTLE's
William BIRTWISTLE.
Pte. L.N.L. wounded 1918. lived in Russel St Acc.

William BIRTWISTLE.
Worked at Howard & Bulloughs, from Sept 1914 Check Numb 6973.
Left for military Service 29-043-1916.

Both Lang Bridges & Howard & Bulloughs employed many thousands,
it isn't possible to remember them all, some were only known by sight.

Some people I never came into contact with. Being a Pattern Maker most of the people
I came into contact with were either in the drawing office's or the foundries & machine shops.

Some departments I never went near, remember in those days department foremen thought they were gods & if a stranger came into his shop, he was quick to question the need.

Walter.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

[QUOTE=Retlaw]I have the following in my files.
William DOUGLAS
Pte. 45676. 22nd Labour Corps.
lived at 23a Stanley St Acc.


William Douglas (above) is my great grandfather, Walter I know before the Labour corps he was with the Kings Liverpool up until being wounded. If you have any information about him I would love to see it.

Tommy was grandad, he didn't serve in the great war, he would have been a little older than you I would say. He was an Iron Plate Moulder, Billy only past away a few years back he worked in the machine shops.

Thank you for comments Walter.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Hi Doug.
Sorry I have no more info on Wm DOUGLAS.
The info I have was from the Absent Voters List 1918.
I will upate my files to show he was formerly in th K.L.
Do you have his service number when he was in the K.L.

Walter

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Yep, No problem Walter. I'll pm you tomorrow night with all I have. and again, thank you.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

To pick up on something that Tealeaf/Doug mentioned earlier - do we know that the trenches were dug for the purpose of training the Pals eg. has it been stated by William Turner. I have never been told from older family members that this was the case (they, too, informed me it was to stop planes landing on it).

As far as the cannons that were placed there Bagpuss is correct when he says that they were melted down to provide iron for the war, there were also similar cannons that resided up at Oak Hill Park which were also were melted down (like any non-essential iron fixing were).

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

One of the wooden bases of the cannon was still in situ up on the coppice until some time in the seventies when it was removed to Haworth Art Gallery. I suppose it is still there with the rest of the steam engine.

The Accrington Gazette for 2nd January 1915 records that on the 31st December 1914 the pal's spent the day on the Coppice and Moleside for 'Entrenching Drill'.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

The trenches have got nothing to with the Accrington pals.They were dug out during
world war two to prevent enemy air craft landing.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

One of the wooden bases was still up there in the late eighties - I remember cracking my head on it whilst mucking about up there.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Lets look at the evidence, shall we?

1) We know there are trenches on the top of the coppice

2) As kids, we were told that those trenches had been built in WW2 to stop airborn landings; until the 1970's, there was other WW2 remnants dotted around, such as the pillbox on the canal between Church & Clayton, but no other evidence elsewhere of these type of trenches.

3) We know from documentary evidence that there were entrenchment exercises on the coppice in late 1914/early 1915.

4) The trenches we know about do not resemble WW1 trenches as developed (i.e. in a zig-zag pattern)

5) There was a very well written letter to the Observer last week stating that WW1 trenches are still in evidence on the coppice.

6) No "Expert" testimony as yet been forthcoming

Conclusion:

1) The trenches we know about are in fact, WW2 trench barriers;

Or

2) the trenches are early WW1 trenches (but lacking the sophistication of the actual ones as developed in 1915-1918.)

Or

3) They are in fact, WW1 trenches that were developed & expanded for a new purpose in WW2

Or

4) There are 2 sets of threnches up there...the ones we know about (WW2) and another lot(WW1) which not many people are familiar with.


I wish Owd Bert was here. He would, no doubt, give the definitive answer

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Well, I've only just come across this pleasantry from Walter which, frankly, is abusive and completely unwarranted.

No one doubts that Mr Turner has done an immense amount of work on the Pals. I resent however the insinuation that my own contribution - the Pals website - is not based on original research. It is overwhelmingly so, some of the research dating back more than 25 years. Mr Turner himself is well aware of this.

Andrew

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Ignore it Andrew, It doesn't mean anything. I have had the pleasure of visiting your website several times, and it is excellent.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Can we have the URL? I'm interested in the subject.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

http://www.pals.org.uk/

(And thanks, Acrylic-bob - the note is much appreciated)

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Got to agree A B its one of the best about the pals and obviously a hell of a lot of work went into it, Mr Jackson you should be commended not abused.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Agreed.............

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

Just had a look at the site and I have to agree with both of the above. It is very informative and well put together.

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

I'll go along with that Willow...Andrew's site has been created with a lot of hard work and genuine interest. I for one appreciate that he's taken the time. Well done Andrew.

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Seconded!........................

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Thirded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Panopticon- the alternative view
 

So what have Retlaw and Atarah got against you Andrew?