Originally Posted by Eric (Post 808938)

Ok ... I'm confused:confused: What is the "culture of death"? And what is Mr. Pope's voting record on abortion?

Originally Posted by acertun (Post 808945)

If the money's right some folks will do anything .

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 808908)

You would think, naturally, that anyone applying for the position of Deputy Director of the Catholic Education Service (CES) would be, well, at least as Catholic as the Pope.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 808988)

It'd also be nice to have a Pope who lived more by the teachings of Jesus, and didn't put his church before the suffering of His children.

Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 808993)

According to a saint of theirs (St Malachi? - 'malarky load of') the next pope will be black
.....and will be the last ! halleluyah:D

Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 808993)

According to a saint of theirs (St Malachi? - 'malarky load of') the next pope will be black
.....and will be the last ! halleluyah:D

Originally Posted by webglynne (Post 809019)

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 808908)

With his voting record on Abortion!

Is it any wonder the church and the country is falling to pieces.

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 808961)

How about letting us know what the actual facts are?

Originally Posted by accyman (Post 808943)

unless gregg will be walking into catholic scools performing abortions for school girls raped by their priest i cant see any link either.

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 809064)

Don't see how its any problem, greg popes a fair minded bloke, also catholic, so whats the issue here?:confused:

Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 808961)

How about letting us know what the actual facts are?

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 809064)

Don't see how its any problem, greg popes a fair minded bloke, also catholic, so whats the issue here?:confused:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 809529)

Ok, Ok, since most of you don't seem able to make the connection here, let me offer a brief explanation for my posting. First off, despite his attending St Mary's, I didn't realise that Greg was catholic, however small the 'C'. But this only goes to make the situation even worse. As a catholic of more or less my generation, educated in the same diocese, I would expect him to have some familiarity with the church's position on Birth Control and Abortion. The thing about catholicism is that, unlike Anglicanism, you cannot pick and choose which elements of it you choose to believe, you have to take the whole lot or you are not a catholic. Those are the rules and they have not changed in two millenia and are unlikley to change any time soon, despite what some may claim to the contrary as a result of the second Vatican Council (Vat II).

So, for Greg to go wandering through the lobbies of Parliament voting in favour of Abortion is manifestly contrary to the teachings of the faith he claims to profess. Such a position is untenable in the deputy director of the CES, particularly given the possibility that Catholic schools will be forced to direct teenage girls to “termination” services. (He also voted against an amendment affirming a child’s need for a father.)

For me I couldn't care one hoot about Greg's religious beliefs, that is a matter for him and his conscience. What does bother me is the apparent hypocrisy of accepting a position within an organisation that requires belief on issues with which one is demonstrably at varience. A bit like claiming to be jewish to get a job in a synagogue and bringing bacon butties to work in your lunch box.

Catholic parents are justified in questioning the CES and the Bishop's Conference about Greg's appointment. There is something about this which does not 'smell' right.

NB The phrase "the culture of death" is used in catholic circles to describe any philosophy or system which does not hold all life to be sacred and which promotes abortion, artificial birth control and euthanasia.

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 809531)

Well Bob I'm a catholic, but don't commit 100% to some of churches views, okay I'm against abortion, but disagree with the church stance on contraception, it isn't the church that has to cloth and feed the kids, I don't hold with their views on homosexuality either, for the simple reason that people do not chose to be gay, that is how they are born, or you could say how god intended them to be, so its a bit hypocritical isn't it, the church being anti gay

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 809529)

Ok, Ok, since most of you don't seem able to make the connection here, let me offer a brief explanation for my posting. First off, despite his attending St Mary's, I didn't realise that Greg was catholic, however small the 'C'. But this only goes to make the situation even worse. As a catholic of more or less my generation, educated in the same diocese, I would expect him to have some familiarity with the church's position on Birth Control and Abortion. The thing about catholicism is that, unlike Anglicanism, you cannot pick and choose which elements of it you choose to believe, you have to take the whole lot or you are not a catholic. Those are the rules and they have not changed in two millenia and are unlikley to change any time soon, despite what some may claim to the contrary as a result of the second Vatican Council (Vat II).

So, for Greg to go wandering through the lobbies of Parliament voting in favour of Abortion is manifestly contrary to the teachings of the faith he claims to profess. Such a position is untenable in the deputy director of the CES, particularly given the possibility that Catholic schools will be forced to direct teenage girls to “termination” services. (He also voted against an amendment affirming a child’s need for a father.)

For me I couldn't care one hoot about Greg's religious beliefs, that is a matter for him and his conscience. What does bother me is the apparent hypocrisy of accepting a position within an organisation that requires belief on issues with which one is demonstrably at varience. A bit like claiming to be jewish to get a job in a synagogue and bringing bacon butties to work in your lunch box.

Catholic parents are justified in questioning the CES and the Bishop's Conference about Greg's appointment. There is something about this which does not 'smell' right.

NB The phrase "the culture of death" is used in catholic circles to describe any philosophy or system which does not hold all life to be sacred and which promotes abortion, artificial birth control and euthanasia.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 809540)

Would you count yourself as a good Catholic, and follow church rules to the letter?

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE (Post 809542)

I defy any Catholic good or bad to say they follow the church rules to the letter, as has been said the church does not contribute towards the expense of raising a child so how can they dictate that women keep producing them knowing that they can't afford to bring them up as they see fit?

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 808908)

You would think, naturally, that anyone applying for the position of Deputy Director of the Catholic Education Service (CES) would be, well, at least as Catholic as the Pope. And you would think that an organisation such as the CES would make pretty sure that candidates wouldn't have done or said anything which might be in opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I mean, charged with the education of thousands of little catholics, you would naturally expect that everything would be correct, proper and orthodox. Well, you would, wouldn't you.

Guess what nice little earner Greg Pope has just walked into?

That's right, Deputy Director of the Catholic Education Service.

With his voting record on Abortion!

Is it any wonder the church and the country is falling to pieces.

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 808908)

You would think, naturally, that anyone applying for the position of Deputy Director of the Catholic Education Service (CES) would be, well, at least as Catholic as the Pope. And you would think that an organisation such as the CES would make pretty sure that candidates wouldn't have done or said anything which might be in opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I mean, charged with the education of thousands of little catholics, you would naturally expect that everything would be correct, proper and orthodox. Well, you would, wouldn't you.

Guess what nice little earner Greg Pope has just walked into?

That's right, Deputy Director of the Catholic Education Service.

With his voting record on Abortion!

Is it any wonder the church and the country is falling to pieces.

Originally Posted by garinda (Post 809541)

I knew Greg Pope is a Catholic, I don't think it's any big secret, because he told me, when I contacted him when he was due a free vote on stem cell research.

He listened to lots of his constituents, and voted how he thought he should vote. Which wasn't the same as I'd have voted, but I respected his decision.

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 809673)

To be quite honest, I totally support stem cell research, because there is great need to find cure for a number of diseases, without medical research a lot of people would be worse of now than they are, yours truly being one of them, I think you'll find the lots off people hat oppose this type of research would soon change their tune if they or one of their loved ones were struck down with illness

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 809713)

Bee in my bonnet and an habitual bigot, not to mention shabby posting. Well don't beat around the bush chaps, why not say what you really think.

Whether you subscribe to the beliefs of the Roman Church, or any other church, or none at all, is a matter for you and your conscience. I do not intend to get into a long and deeply boring discussion on the relative merits of faith versus atheism at the moment; maybe on another thread at another time.

What I find interesting in the appointment of Greg Pope is the blatant display of hypocrisy. Garinda has spoken to Greg and reckons he's a nice bloke - Rindi honey, he's a politician. and there is no such thing as a 'nice' politician. Just some who twist the truth and lie less than the others. Sadly that does not qualify them as 'nice' in the sense that one would confidently take them home to tea with mother, certainly not without checking the silverware before they left the house. All politicians are economical with the truth, that is their stock in trade, and any politician who tries to convince you otherwise is..well..lying.

As jaysay has pointed out, quite a number of catholics disregard the teachings of the magisterium on quite a number of issues, as do a significant proportion of the clergy, at all levels. In much the same manner, quite a number of people disregard the Law on a number of issues - does that make the Law wrong?

The thing that really irks me, the bee in my bonnet if you will, is that there is a gradual and increasing dilution of standards, in public life. The parliamentary scandals of the last year have given more than enough evidence of this fact. It is also undeniably true that, despite Blair's mantra of "Education, Education, Education." this dilution of standards has also taken place in our schools. The State education system is now a pale shadow of what it once was, at a time when the country needs it to be stronger and more effective than ever. Catholic educational establishments were often seen as a bulwark against diminishing standards (why do you think that Blair sent his kids to the London Oratory School?) The CES formerly maintained a high ethical and moral standard absolutely in line with the teaching of the magisterium and what parents expected of it. How can it continue to claim such high standards if its deputy director sees nothing wrong in the murder of infants in the womb, or that it is morally responsible to have sex outside of marriage purely for recreation, or that children really do not need to have a father in their lives, or that it is perfectly acceptable to polish granny off when she becomes a nuisance or the costs of her health care might swallow up too much of the kid's inheritance.

This is wrong. it always was and it always will be. Call me a bigot all you wish, but doing so will not make it right.

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 809729)

Well I've always taken the view that the two things that should not be argued about in the Pub is politics and religion, I think I'll toddle of now and open a bottle of Stella:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob (Post 809713)

The thing that really irks me, the bee in my bonnet if you will, is that there is a gradual and increasing dilution of standards, in public life. The parliamentary scandals of the last year have given more than enough evidence of this fact. It is also undeniably true that, despite Blair's mantra of "Education, Education, Education." this dilution of standards has also taken place in our schools.

Originally Posted by Hiddlebit (Post 809857)

Anyone who complains about the youth of today needs to remember who the parents and grandparents are.

And hang their heads in shame. Because if anyone is to blame, it's them. Including me.

Kids spend less than 20% of their time in school (6/7 hours a day, 180 days a year). The rest of the time they're ours.

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 809905)

That is a fine observation....except, children and young adults today are nothing like they were when I was a child. I would not have dreamed of questioning a teacher, or refusing to do what I was told by a person in authority.
they are influenced by many more things than their parents(TV. media, internet).......and while we are about it, it does seem that parents have few rights over their children......social services can intervene and stop parents from doing what they(the parents) feel is morally right if the child disagrees with it.
Parenting is the hardest job in the world......there is no handbook and the job description doesn't fit every child.
The other observation I would like to make, is that the poor parents have feral children who influence the children of stricter/fairer/better parent....the parents who insist that their child attends school, does their homework, tidies their room, acts responsibly.
somehow the parents of feral children are seen as 'cool' rather than being proper parents.

Stop knocking parents.

Originally Posted by Hiddlebit (Post 810112)

Except... I'm hearing comments that say that kids expect too much - and who set those expectations? Not the kids. Not the schools. My parents went through the hell of war as children. They knew grinding poverty and decided I would not, if they could help it. Comparatively I certainly wasn't spoiled but I learnt to expect more...and so it goes.

Don't tell me it wasn't the same for you, for I'd find it difficult to believe at best.

It's easy to blame others for our own failings. Time to accept some of it don't you think?

Originally Posted by Hiddlebit (Post 809857)

Anyone who complains about the youth of today needs to remember who the parents and grandparents are.

And hang their heads in shame. Because if anyone is to blame, it's them. Including me.

Kids spend less than 20% of their time in school (6/7 hours a day, 180 days a year). The rest of the time they're ours.

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 809948)

My perception of the children of today(and I may be wide of the mark, seeing as my own daughter is in her 40's - Sorry Nicola)is that they want everything yesterday....and they want designer stuff.......everything has to be bigger(or in some cases) such as technology, smaller, more 'now' and they compete with friends who seem to have everything....they are more influenced by advertisements and consumerism.
Parenting is getting harder and harder.......with more pressures being placed on parents and folk giving parents bad press. Very unhelpful.

Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 811354)

I'm with you Margaret and I do believe that the world has become obsessionally materialistic but I do think that the parents have to take responsibility for how their kids turn out.

My family were hard up and one of my parents was always out working while the other looked after us at home. They couldn't afford the latest gear and we knew it but what they gave us in abundance was time.

If more people turned round to children and explained that real life is not like an episode of Hannah Montana then we might not have the 'want it now' culture that we're raising.

I got a paper round at 12 coupled with a labouring job after school at a local nursery and it taught me the value of money. That is the root cause of many problems as things are too readily available without having been earned.

My wife and I live by the principle of 'if we haven't got the money we can't afford it' and it's served us both pretty well for a combined total of 81 years.

Originally Posted by Ken Moss (Post 811354)

My wife and I live by the principle of 'if we haven't got the money we can't afford it' and it's served us both pretty well for a combined total of 81 years.

Originally Posted by Less (Post 811359)

Disgusting! You're telling us your wife is only 12?

:eek:

Originally Posted by widnes viking (Post 811778)

If there is any issue here for me its the fact that Greg Pope has stood for Labour when winning the seat was nailed on. When its a fight for the seat and he may lose he has took a job elsewhere. I'd like to know when he first got this job offer. We can then judge his comments at the time of announcing he wasn't going to stand of wanting to spend more time with the family as truly the case or the stated excuse for taking a career turn to suit his own needs and not that of the party.

Originally Posted by widnes viking (Post 811778)

If there is any issue here for me its the fact that Greg Pope has stood for Labour when winning the seat was nailed on. When its a fight for the seat and he may lose he has took a job elsewhere. I'd like to know when he first got this job offer. We can then judge his comments at the time of announcing he wasn't going to stand of wanting to spend more time with the family as truly the case or the stated excuse for taking a career turn to suit his own needs and not that of the party.