Cumbria Shootings
 

Awful. Words cannot express it.

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Terrible news :-

BBC News - Police find body of Cumbria gunman suspect

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Absolutely tragic

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ITS JUST SO SAD
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i think it just proves that you dont know when your number is up...when you leave your loved ones,,.be nice to each other you might not come home ,dont go to bed on an argument,etc...sympathy to all the bereaved families

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it awful .. hope all have been injured come through .. just put the news on ..

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Those poor innocent people just doing their shopping , Why !!

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Couldn't agree more. A sad state of affairs

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A few more words about it just for LESS :-



BBC News - Cumbria shooting rampage suspect's 'body found'

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Absolutely tragic this, he just seems to have shot totally at random, i've been to Whitehaven many times, and have friends that live near Egremont.


Best Regards - Taggy

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Not much ya can say Tragic.:(

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A more in depth report is cited in this article. Incomprehensible, but maybe some sense can be made of it in the coming days.

Gun rampage taxi driver kills 12 - Crime, UK - The Independent

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Seems like another American trait took about 20 years to get here, still never see it coming though do we?

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12 people dead and about the same injured, what a crazy world we live in

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It has happened here before this incident - there is nothing that can be done about the unstable people such as this perpetrator, I just hope that there isn't another knee jerk reaction.
There have been more shooting incidents involving hand guns since the banning of private ownership of registered handguns than previously.

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At least were not paying for his bed and breakfast for the next 20 year, feel sorry for all the families of the victims though, all out doing normal day to day things and this happens to them.
I'm actually up in this area, he dumped his car only quarter of a mile from where we are, we all got told to stay inside and no-one had to leave site as he was on foot somewhere in the area.

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Blimey ksh scary stuff indeed, glad your safe and well and condolences to all the local people effected in the area.
Posted via Mobile Device

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absolutely tragic

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Another tragic mass murder by someone who legally held guns, same as Dunblane and Hungerford....no law against holding guns will stop anyone intent on mass murder, but a total ban on firearms would at least lessen the chances of this happening.
The Dunblane and Hungerford mass murders were both carried out by men who had legally owned guns... I've never heard any compelling argument to give anyone a licence to kill by allowing them to own guns, this bloke was a taxi driver.. why was he allowed to own a shootgun and rifle?

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We heard he'd crashed the car and others say he just abandoned it, not sure which is right, if he'd have got where he was heading he would have wiped a lot more out on the road probably, he was just short of the start of the hard knot pass when he left the car, anyone who's been on this road will know what I mean

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It is evident you don't know the facts of the cases re Dumblane & Hungerford, both men if the police had applied the firearms act as it then was would have had their permits revoked.
In the case of Dumblane he was not a member of any recognised gun club, they refused his membership, even a police sergeant recommended his certificate renewal be refused, but he was over ruled. And Ryan had also commited offences which were enough to have his permit refused.
Then the hooray and promises by Tony Blair to make the streets safer, did it, did it hell, there are now more unregistered firearms than there ever were.
I owned and used several firearms for nigh on 60 years before I surendered my certifcate and had the fire arms destroyed.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people with whatever is available, he could have done the same amount of lumber with his taxi, or a cross bow.
Retlaw.

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Apparently the guns were handed down from his father and are standard weapons for hunting, shotgun for rabbits and the .22 rifle used for deer stalking.

Thing is what was this guy doing with them did he use them. What they should do is change the law so that licences only last a year by which time the owner has to account to Police or similar organisation as what they are doing with the guns and when they last used them. If they no longer use them then why have them?

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Fire arms certificates have to be renewed ever three years, there are no licenses.
For him to have held them legally he would have had to show good reason & provide proof of where he used them, along with written permission from land owners or membership of a recognised club.
So far no one has proved to me that he held them legally.
Retlaw.

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a total ban on firearms would not prevent these tragedys, a nutter is a nutter simple as. same as normal the call goes up to punish everyone, farmers need guns fer various things, most gun owners use em fer sport or are members of clubs fer enjoyment, i myself have never owned a firearm, probably cos the police refused me a licence, ya have more chance of reducing these things, if the existing laws were used consistently n properly,some areas seem to do this, seems some don't.:confused:but is that not the same in many areas of life?:confused:

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The whole thing about Guns is that they are used to kill, as a youngster I often went with my father shooting, even my younger Brother & Sister tried it out. We went "Hunting" for pigeons, rabbits & other game dependent on the season. At no time would I or any of my family ever of considered using said weapon on another human being. My father was licensed & we had permission from the land owners. That was our reason for having weapons in the house & on a few occasions the police came to our house to check on our storage & security, no Problems.

As Retlaw stated it's not the Weapon itself it's the user, far more useful than the plods knocking on the door asking to see the licence or the storage arrangements would be for the shooter to submit to a medical both physical & mental to ascertain their suitability to posses & use firearms. The registered users are always the easy option, but having said all that, who will control & enforce such a ruling (venturing into human rights & personal freedoms).

I spent a few years in HM forces where I was obliged to carry a weapon & if the situation decreed I was expected to use it to "Kill another Human being" believe me this was definitely not on my list of things to do when I joined but it was expected should needs arise. I was fortunate enough never to have to pull the trigger, but on occasion I had need to site down a barrel on a living, breathing, person, not pleasant. Does this then make me into a raging murdering psychopath, NO.

The reason why ? Because of my mental balance, my moral compass my understanding of what is right & wrong & what is acceptable or not. These people who do such things are missing in part some of the above if not all of the above & that is why we see the terrible cases like this all to often. So before the Witch hunt on gun owners & demanding all guns be banned, we have to get to the root of the problem first.

It's not the weapon that is just a construct of metal & wood, it is the unstable user that causes the problems, these are the things that need dealing with.

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Cashy - slung out of every pub in Accy...and the cops refuse you a gun licence? What a surprise!

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yep came as a hell of a shock to me T.:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38: only mentioned though to make a point, some forces DO use the existing laws.

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Like I said I still have not heard of any good reason why people should be allowed to own guns and keep them ain thier homes.
Of course if anyone is intent on murder using guns then no amount of laws will stop them.. but the facts are that Dunblane, Hungerford and this massacre in Cumbria were all carried out using licenced weapons.. if anyone's argument is that people should be allowed guns simply because they like to use them for recreational purposes.. or just like the look of them.. then I don't think that is a very good argument.

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Assumed causes & course of the shooting,

The grievances and grudges that drove Derrick Bird over the edge - Crime, UK - The Independent

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Terrible news. I read the article in the Independent, but one question I have to ask is what was the crazy man doing with two guns?.
What are the laws on possessing guns in the UK now?

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To obtain a shotgun certificate requires more than just a simple form. An investment of around £250 and a doctors letter, you have have to have a character reference from a trusted and respected member of the community. Also a vist and interview with a trainied firearms officer. Once you obtain the certificate it will expire after 5 years, meaning you go through it again and are rechecked etc.
The argument of keeping guns at home is much the same as keeping fishing rods at home of a set of golf clubs. Most people based in Lancashire who own a shotgun will attend claypigeon shooting grounds, this is a great hobby but not cheap. I own shotguns as does my neigbour and farther and most of my friends. Although the law does not require you to state a purpose to own a shotgun, it does state how it must be stored and transported etc. They are tools for work or hobby, just like golf clubs which are dangerous if used for the wrong reasons.

If you are lucky like i am to have land, then you need a shotgun to keep control of vermin etc.

Firearms certificates are totally different, these are much harder to obtain. You must state why you need the gun, on most occasions be a member of a rifle club, you are only allowed the guns approved by the firearms officer at the time of application. Any changes and you must register for a variation. All bullets are registered and counted. Random spot checks are carried out. You need 2 references and a doctors letter.

When ever you purchase a shotgun or rifle, it is all logged, you must send off paperwork or risk jail. The place of purchase will inform the police at the time of purchase.

The laws are there and do work if applied. If you can't see a reason to have guns in your home then you dont need a shotgun etc, but to be narrow minded on the uses of such weapons and state they should not be allowed is blind stupidity.

The simple although over stated fact is, cars are more dangerous and that shinny kitchen knife, that is repsonable for more deaths, but you have a purpose for knifes, so lets not ban them yet!.

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I have to agree with you on banning hand guns Barrie, the only people it affected was the people who's hobby was pistol shooting, i.e. the Olympic shooting team having to go to France to practice. The ban did nothing to the criminal element who use guns, you can see these hardened criminals saying, well lads that's it hand guns are banned so o more armed robberies:rolleyes:

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[quote=kestrelx;820110]Apparently the guns were handed down from his father and are standard weapons for hunting, shotgun for rabbits and the .22 rifle used for deer stalking.

IMHO a .22 rifle, even using Long Rifle Ammunition is a totally unsuitable weapon to hunt/shoot dear with unless you are a totally brilliant shot and obtain a kill shot with every round fired.

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Probably the Cumbrian Police were too busy doing paperwork and issuing speeding tickets to check on minor things such as the suitability of a person to hole a firearms certificate.

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I have found the news coverage of this tragedy intrusive and distasteful.
Do we really need to have these so called journalists picking over every bit of the carcass of what is essentailly a dead story?
It isn't like there is a man hunt on-going....and even if there were, the bulletins still smack of overkill(no pun intended).
Leave Cumbria to bury its dead with privacy and dignity.

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It's not a matter of your opinion Barrie. The only deer that can be legally shot with a.22" are Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer, the bullet must have a muzzle energy of not less than 1000 ft/lbs and weigh a minimum of 50grains. For other species the minimum calibre is .240".

From the BASC website: BASC - Deer Stalking Code of Practice

England and Wales

For Muntjac and Chinese Water deer only- a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than .220 inches and muzzle energy of not less than 1000 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 50 grains may be used.

For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement.

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we had same conversation last night n reached same conclusion.:(

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I am glad I am not alone in my views.
I have hesitated from posting to this thread because I felt that everything thet needed to be said had been covered......but as time has gone on I have found the media coverage of this incident to be distasteful, disproportionate and unnecessary.

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As Tealeaf said when he started this thread " Words cannot express it".
We live in a world crowded with words.
There is a time for silence.
The bereaved and injured should be left in silence to grieve and be healed.
There will be a time when words will be appropriate.

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Totally agree, I have avoided a lot of the news as I find it so distressing. Could not comprehend the mother of the nine year old boy allowing him to be interviewed on the evening news, the height of distaste IMHO.

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The guy probably had a lot of problems that he didn't talk about and had no one to talk about them with as his mother was ill. Things come out under pressure when there are unresolved long term family issues. No one will know how this guy felt as he's gone but you can see from his actions what must have been going on beneath the surface. When news first came out about this it said on the News he'd been the victim of a bullying campaign at the place he worked. But it will never be known 100% for sure just what made him snap. There are probably many components going way back into early years of his life - It's a sorry situation.

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agree 100%, dont see the relevance to my quote though.:confused:

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We are all living through a time of extreme stress.
This sort of event will likely happen more often.
It is important to 'wind down' and make time to withdraw from those stressful feelings whenever you get the chance, in whatever way you find works for you.
Just being aware that you are under stress is only the first step in avoiding 'cracking up'.

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There are a lot of people who are under stress for many different reasons, but they don't go out and mow down a dozen innocent people and injure many more. This chap was undoubtedly under some kind of long term depression that somebody must have known about, you don't just wake up on morning and say I'm going out to kill lots of people today, people close to this guy must have seen a chance in this guys demeanor over a period of time and didn't act on it, a very sad case that maybe could have been avoided

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People may not have seen any change however there will still be blame chucked somewhere at someone else.

The police are already being accused of being slow for not having an armed team waiting for this to happen so they could jump on it.

Lots of people suffer from depression, should they all be watched carefully?
Not everyone that is depressed is receiving medical treatment for it so there is no one that can be accused of not informing someone else that a depressed person might do something really bad like this.

I suspect that doctors notes do not contain information such as if the person holds a firearms permit so if the docs did know of any depression they could not advise the police to remove the firearms pdq.

I am pretty sure that we won't ever know why he did this however it wont stop the media going over & over every little suggestion or theory and make it a prime time news article.

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I certainly agree with your last statement mattylad that's why I no longer watch the news programs

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This is so shocking.

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Apparently they were having debates over banning guns entirely this morning, even for farmers & registered gun clubs etc.

IMO thats a wrong way to go.

More people are killed every year with cars, are they going to ban them? are they heck.

While it was awful we will never know why or be able to prevent this happening again (IMO).

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I read this morning that one journalist is wondering whether he was on antidepressants, and notes that several of the 'rampage killers' were.

The side effects of some have been found to be 'suicidal tendencies'

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I wonder if then, the prescription of anti depressants and the like would be better repoted to the police, so they can check if the person holds gun cetificates, flying licences and the like.

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Yet again you and I are heading for a falling out, Yes, people on antidepressants can because of their (the tablets), effects feel, 'suicidal', but that does not make everyone on antidepressants want to harm others, more rumour and ill informed conjecture on your part, Tsk.

:mad:

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Can quite believe that Margaret, I was once put on Prozac whilst in hospital, I took just one and ended up climbing the wall

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The news report I heard said there was no record of any mental health problems/issues with Derrick Bird, though he may have been supressing any symptoms which could have lead to this situation. Regardless there was a program that reported Prozac and Seroxat can cause severe depressions and suicidal urges in people - there has been a cover up about these drugs and their effectiveness is questionable!

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Hi Cashman - it's because you refered to this bloke as a nutter, a derogatory term. In the paper I read said his father left his twin brother £25,000 and nothing to him - I mean that indicates something about the kind of relationship that there was between the brothers and the father: obvious some negative situation there and favouritism - these sort of things can trigger aggression, family feuds etc.

That combined with the prospect of him going to prison for tax evasion and so on - it's obvious the bloke was suicidal and then decided to take people with him, starting with those that he percieved as doing him wrong etc

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its like out kestrelx,depends on a persons constitution, some people they help, some they don't do any good at all, as 2 members of my family prove, same family differant reactions, whilst i agree they can make you depressed in some cases, i would dispute they would make ya wanna go out n kill a dozen or so people,thats summat else altogether.I.M.H.O.

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I only took the one tablet, then told them where to shove them, but I does seem to work of some people, but I wasn't one of them

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Just looking through some photo's taken on the day of the shooting and I just thought how easy it would have been for him to take a pot shot at one of these guys who were out looking for him, scary thought :eek:

Attachment 16280

Attachment 16281

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Glad yer back mate, aint my idea of a good break.:eek:

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See ... it made you more active;):D

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Seems like the access to firearms in the UK is more than adequately controlled. What one can't control, as some of you have observed, is some individual flipping out under pressure and taking it out on anyone who gets in his way. I'm typing this in my basement, and hanging on the wall is enough fire power to take out the whole of my street ... but, it ain't going to happen. But the laws are not as restrictive over here, except for hand guns, which no one really needs in a peaceful society. I have a Firearms Aquisition Certificate (FAC) which I have to show when I purchase a firearm and ammunition. Long guns don't have to be registered. And with all the guns lying around this country, particularly in rural areas, we still have very few murders. Most of the gun crimes are commited with illegal hand guns, usually smuggled in from the US, where, in some jurisdictions, all you need to buy a gun is money and a valid driver's licence.

Question: if the shooter inherited the guns, did he have to, by law, get a licence for them?

When all is said and done though, this is a terrible crime. But it seems like a crime of the times: guy gets po'd at life, loads his weapons, and starts shooting. Happens a lot south of the border. Hope there is no copycat effect.

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It was a terrible crime, Eric....unfortunatlely, some of our trendy leftie do-gooders are already starting to question the actions of the Cumbria Cops - namely, why could he not have been stopped earlier? It's the usual slime..the BBC, the Guardian newspaper..you name the rest of'em. It's the same mob who complain about every (occaisional) police shooting and don't want armed bobbys in this country.

The sickening thing of course, is that if the cops had managed to intervene and drop him prior to Bird's first shooting - the solicitor - the BBC and same newspapers would now be screaming about a 'Shoot to Kill' policy and 'Cops out of Control' in Cumbria.

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Be careful Tealeaf, slagging the BBC off and criticizing the Beloved Guardian, is a capital offence in this country, or had you forgotten:rolleyes:

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That was 20 years ago Eric, mind you the way things are these days I may just be tempted to have another try:D

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That is a pathetic.. cars are an essential means of transport.. god forbid but if I was about to crack up and decide to commit mass murder I would more likely go to my kitchen cupboard and get my shooter with loads of ammo rather than get my car out the garage.
Why are a small minority of people in this country allowed to keep firearms? why should we not all be allowed to keep guns?.. all the random mass shootings here have been carried out by people with legally owned guns.. now I'm not the sharpest tool in the box but do see a pattern developing.

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Why should we not all be allowed to keep guns:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Just pictured Mancie with an AK47:eek: :eek::eek::eek:

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Must be right if The Duke of Edinburgh says so.

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yeh right, i'd rather face a nutter wi a cricketbat any day.:rolleyes:

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I dont know, crickets bats can be used time & time again, guns run out of ammo at some time :D

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The media do that sort of thing over here too; but, bottom line is, the cops do what they have to do. And if we want law and order, and safe communities we have to let them get on with the job they are paid to do. When cops get out of hand, then they should be dealt with by the same laws that govern the rest of us. I don't see any problem with armed police. I just checked with a buddy of mine on the KPF, and he told me that last year (2009), members of the Kingston Police Services discharged their firearms three times: twice to put injured dogs out of their misery, and once to kill a deer which had been badly hurt by a car. So, in sane societies (unlike our neighbours to the south ;)) armed police are not likely to go letting off rounds and pulling out their Glocks for no really good reason. I do believe, and I hope I am not wrong, that when all the facts are in we will find that the cops in Cumbria did the best job they could in very difficult circumstances.

Oh, by the way. Just finished "Revelation" ... of the four, I liked "Sovereign" best .... Hope he writes more. There are lots of story lines in "Revelation" that scream out for at least one more book.

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Ya but by that time wouldn't really matter would it, unless that is the caps a bloody lousy shot:rolleyes:

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Somebody could do what Bird did without guns, he could have invited people to a party then driven a car into them or something. It's all pretty sick - but if someone wanted to hurt a lot of people their are other ways. In fact recently in China someone used a bus to kill a lot of people.

The issue is if you banned guns completely someone could use some other means as stated. Fact is this guy Derrick Bird must have enjoyed what he did to some degree, I don't know how he could carry on and shoot so many people without getting some kind of kick out of it?

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The same think would happen after hand guns were baned, the only people to be affected would be law abiding people not the criminals and nut jobs who will acquire guns if and when the want them, it makes no difference to the criminal element whether there is a gun ban or not