"The Art of Graffitti Writing"
 

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http://www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk/Your_Co...Logo_Small.gifWell, folks...what more can be said? This is where your council tax money is going...teaching kids one of the finer arts of vandalism. I really only though this loonacy was confined to some of the madder London Boroughs, but sadly I'm mistaken.

Never mind, Mez....when you eventually do get your new fence, just think of the wonderful free murals & decorations that the local children will be putting on there .

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not if i buy it myself they wont ha ha ha

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Think of it this way - perhaps they could make the ruined houses in the wake of Phoenix a joy to the eye! - then perhaps HBC can hire a Borough Poet at vast amounts of money to write about it.

Just so long as they don't do any murals of Tufty the Squirrel which, according to Lambeth Council, is racist.

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How the heck do they work that out? Sorry, I know it's a thread wander but I have to ask!

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Who knows how the collective minds of councils work? - particularly Lambeth, although Hyndburn are showing promise in the loony stakes.

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Well here we have it. Hyndburn leads the country, yet again. While everyone else has to put up with the insanities of 'loony-left' councils. We are the first to introduce the concept of the equally loony, 'raving-right'.

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What the bloody hell is racist Tufty the Squirrel prey tell? We grew up with Tufty "Who is I believe a Red Squirrel" Not the Communist type of Red I may had for the benefit of the younger element.

Is it the fact that Grey “America” Squirrels are immigrants therefore its racist not to have them represented? That point being made I must add “please be aware that our government is active culling Grays in the name of species conservation” maybe our European cousins should take note….

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I'm not quite sure what the problem is with the council doing this. If it gives kids something to do and helps them be creative, then it seems to be fine by me.

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Did you read the posts and if you did do you think a good bit of Graffitti will smarten up Accy or as long as the KIDS have got something to do and its creative then fine, hey why dont we have a workshop on how to break in to houses and we can let the kids come up with the most creative way to get in or even the most creative way to sell the stuff afterwards.

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Yes, I read the posts, and no, graffiti wouldn't smarten the town up. I wouldn't mind it in certain places, though, it looks quite smart when done well. Drawing with spraypaint is hardly something bad, if done in the appropriate places, and obviously not used as vandalism.

I don't appreciate people jumping to conclusions as to what I mean. If you don't understand, just ask. Would you rather the kids that are into graffiti to be doing it in other places than designated areas? How do you compare an event for kids to spraypaint to stealing from people? Let me guess...they get shown how to do it and (gasp!) they might just do it all over the place! Oh Dear! We'll have to stop showing them how to paint in school case they start becoming vandals. Maybe we'll have to stop them from learning how to throw balls in PE, in case they decide to throw stones and break windows, etc.

Or maybe not.

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Maybe you just missed the point that worries most people. This isn't a case of allowing children to use spray paint in designated areas on a permanent basis. (In fact I wonder how they could work that because once something is painted it's painted so would they then encourage someone else to paint over it which could result in the first 'artist' resenting the fact that their masterpiece has been ruined?)

The idea of a half term course is all very well but we are concerned about afterwards - where are they subsequently going to use these new found skills? It sounds like a problem in the making ie teaching children that it's OK to use graffiti so long as you've been on a course.

The only subsequent 'blank canvasses' they are going to find will be our walls and I don't care how artisticly aesthetic it is I do not want it on my walls nor do I wish to see it plastered all over town. I'm sure they could learn something far more useful.

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Happily, here in Hyndburn, we appear to have escaped the worst of the Spray Graffiti Craze that has cost taxpayers untold millions to efface. Having lived in London, Paris, and Amsterdam, I have seen at first hand the environmental degradation caused by this form of wilful vandalism. I have also heard and read, at some length, the spurious arguments put forward in support of this abberant activity, by it's PC apologists.

They are, without exception, flawed and many of them are strained to the point of ridicule. The notion that making a mark of whatever kind, in whatever material, on any surface, immediatley qualifies the person making the mark as an "Artist" and the mark itself as "Art" is laughably untrue. The Duchampian paradigm "I am an artist, therefore everything I do is art." was discredited years ago.
The making of Art is a studied and considered response to, and comment on the human condition. It is an attemt to express feelings and emotions, inexpressible in any other media. While it is true that all human beings can draw and paint and sculpt, it is given to very few to create Art. The signal distinction that most commentators and apologists fail to appreciate is that of attainment of a skill in a craft, which most, if not all, people can accomplish in time, and the considered application of that skill in conjunction with the emotions and the intellect.

Spraying a "tag" on a wall, or other public structure, no matter how decoratively or skilfully done, fulfills none of these criteria. Thus it is anti-social and ought not to be encouraged.

As a graduate in Fine Art I naturally would wish to encourage all efforts intended to produce a greater appreciation of, and participation in, the arts. But not at the cost of encouraging delinquent underachievers to deface the built environment. If an outlet for the boundless energy and inventiveness of youth is required, would it not be better directed at seeking a solution to the damage caused by their peers?

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I take on board and understand all the previous points against yet there are a couple of things that I would like to add -

1. Graffiti when done properly ie. not just a tag, is in my view an art. I am against idiotic scrawlings of the form "I was 'ere Y2K+4" and all that but I have seen great pieces too.

2. It is a fact that graffiti has helped previously anti-social delinquents to acheive something in their lives.

3. I would have thought and 100% believe that whoever is delivering the course would stress that it is not acceptable to daub any old walls - an analogy would be a Karate master emphasising that the martial arts are not to be learnt just for kicking someones head in because you can but to be able to defend oneself and to gain some kind of karma/zen within.

Responsible and creative Graffiti is fine and I would rather have youngsters chanelling their energy into something creative rather than destructive, although I do appreciate peoples worries.

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So where would tey do this energy channelling once the course is over?

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Maybe buildings that are scheduled to be demolished could be used?

I am sure that many cities, maybe not in this county though, have schemes where artists can practise their form without any degradation to the surrounding environment. I dont think that the anti-social aspect of graffiti can be beaten and hence believe that the solution is to educate those who dabble in this art to express themselves in a responsible manner.

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Sorry Ceejache, I for one look upon Graffiti as vandalism pure and simple no matter how good it is! If I want to see a work of art, I go to a gallery, I don't want it staring down at me as soon as I leave the house. You say it is "not just a tag" but that is ALL it is. Most of these "artists" practice for months or years to get their own pretty pattern and then paint it on every conceivable wall they can but the majority are incapable of changing what they spray. That is not art, its "paint by numbers" doing the same design time and time again.

If they are truly artistic, there are so many ways that skill can be channelled but Graffiti is not one of them.

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It should not be encouraged. They can learn better art but not to do this.

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Sorry but thats not all graffiti is I'm afraid. If people have just seen tag graffiti then I can understand their views, but if you have seen other graffiti then you would maybe have a different opinion. Why is Jackson Pollack (sp?) considered art but not graffiti - they both look the same to my eye. Maybe HBC should encourage kids to do some installations in the style of Hirst or Ermine (sp?...again)?

No-one wants to see it shoved down their throats and daubed everywhere myself included, but I think a responsible channelling or these energies is better than doing nothing.

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Ceejache, I never thought I would agree with you on this particular thread but all of a sudden, I want the HBC to start this project. :)

I noticed today that directly opposite the council offices, there is a brick wall which would be ideal for the paint dabbers! It would give me so much pleasure knowing that those stuck-up office workers could look down out of their windows every morning and admire what you consider to be "Art!":rofl38:

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Personally I don't consider what Jackson Pollock has created to be worthy of the title "art" either. I sometimes wonder if it isn't a case of "The Emperor's New Clothes".

Maybe the definition of art should be that it is on a canvas or something similar which can be placed wherever the owner of it wishes to place it (within their own premises) wheras graffitti is forced upon us whether we want it or not and most cases it is 'not' and daubed upon the premises of those who do not want it by people who have no right to do so.

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n. pl. graf·fi·ti (-thttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g.../GIF/emacr.gif)

A drawing or inscription made on a wall or other surface, usually so as to be seen by the public. Often used in the plural.


[Italian, diminutive of graffio, a scratching, scribble, probably from graffiare, to scratch, scribble, probably from Vulgar Latin *graphihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g.../GIF/amacr.gifre, to write with a stylus, from Latin graphium, stylus, from Greek grapheion, graphion, from graphein, to write. See gerbh- in Indo-European Roots.]

Usage Note: The word graffiti is a plural noun in Italian. In English graffiti is far more common than the singular form graffito and is mainly used as a singular noun in much the same way data is. When the reference is to a particular inscription (as in There was a bold graffiti on the wall), the form graffito would be etymologically correct but might strike some readers as pedantic outside an archaeological context. There is no substitute for the singular use of graffiti when the word is used as a mass noun to refer to inscriptions in general or to the related social phenomenon. The sentence Graffiti is a major problem for the Transit Authority Police cannot be reworded Graffito is... (since graffito can refer only to a particular inscription) or Graffiti are... (which suggests that the police problem involves only the physical marks and not the larger issue of vandalism). In such contexts, the use of graffiti as a singular is justified by both utility and widespread precedent.


art1 A drawing or painting on paper,canvas or material that can be hung
or placed on a wall, stand or implement for that purpose.

1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2. 1. <LI type=a>The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium. <LI type=a>The study of these activities.
   2. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.

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Well there's an obvious distinction between the two, and the reference to the police in the context of Graffiti re-affirms the popular conception that it is a social problem/vandalism.

If any of you consider it art ask yourself how you would feel if one of the artists decided to decorate your house wall without your consent. Not to mention the cost to the taxpayer of constantly trying to clean up after these "artists".

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If I was to come home and find the Mona Lisa painted onto the side of my house I would still be annoyed, as I would be if the Medici Quartet started playing Vivaldi outside my house at four in the morning.

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Where then, is the difference? As Sartre points out, "Hell, is other people."

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I said those very same words myself only this weekend.

The thing about graffiti is that it isn't commissioned art. It is painted where people don't want it by people who have no right to do so.

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Do we really want to encourage this? Is this really an asset to the built environment?

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I agree its a nuisance where people dont want it - I have never said otherwise. I just think people are failing to see the art in a piece of well done 'proper' graffiti - the first picture above (toilet doors) is not a good example of that, the others aren't clever either but hint at what can be achieved.

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Sorry mate, but I think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one.

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Each to their own and all that....no worries!

Have a look at this though.....I would say that the artist had a talent.

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I don't say that artist hasn't got talent just that it should be put to use elsewhere other than on walls, unless specifically commissioned by the owner of a building as a mural.

Do you seriously think the graffiti workshop is referring to things like that? I suspect it would be more akin to the illustrations posted by A-b above.

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graffitti makes slums

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Well it certainly doesn't help does it? Can you see it ever being thought of as an improvement?

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>>Have a look at this though.....I would say that the artist had a talent.<<


Refering to the comment I made earlier about art expressing things that no other media can. What is there in the the picture you post that cannot be expressed in any other way?
All it seems to me to be saying is "I am black, American and disadvantaged, isn't it a shame for me?"
Dead original that one Ceejache! What would be original would be something that described a way out the well of self-pity and self-loathing that most ethnic minorities, sooner or later, seem to end up in.

Or maybe I'm wrong and it is saying "I'm black, American and disadvantaged and what is more I am proud of it!" Which is fair enough. But does holding such a sentiment justify what is, in effect, criminal damage? And does it not also display a level of contempt for society and it's rules that is deeply disturbing?

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I too noted a couple of similar points A-Bob.....

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I can't help wondering if the owner of the wall in Cj's post was in favour of the decoration.

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The pictures obviously took a lot of time to produce so I would say that the owner of the wall was well aware of what was going on so I would say that yes it was commissioned.

I can express how I feel by writing those feelings down, or I could write a poem, or a song. I could express myself in all those forms so should I stop writing songs just because I could express myself through prose instead?

"I learn, I go to school" - the mural would seem to be an expression of pride in oneself and self-belief that one can escape the poverty of the ghetto.

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If it was commissioned it doesn't qualify as graffiti.

In the infants yard of the old Springhill School a mural was commissioned for one wall in order to brighten up the dull andcrumbling surroundings for the children. This was done with the agreement and support of the teachers and governors.

However, those same teachers and governors would be horrified should a similar mural appear on the wall of the brand new school which doesn't need brightening up in such a way.

The former was a type of art the latter would be classed as vandalism - even if it was artistically better than the first.

There are murals on several walls in Morecambe. They are not graffiti. They are murals.

Perhaps the artist who created the image in your post would be offended if he/she knew that you considered it graffiti.

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The artist took the picture himself and posted it on a graffiti website. It was done with a spray can (or ten) so counts as graffiti in that sense, it is also a drawing on a wall so again it qualifies itself as graffiti.

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What's the website?

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www.graffiti.org I think. There is quite a lot of crap on there though.....

I see I've lost a Karma point because of all this.....I am trying to see the good in something here so whys that eh? Bloody pathetic.....

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"Fighting a losing battle" - at least I'm fighting for something and putting my name to it instead of taking cheap little anonymous potshots.....

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Thanks for the website.

Funnily enough when I keyed that in, the title which appeared was "art crimes" which I think just about sums up what most people think of graffiti - criminal damage.

If I have enough spare time I'll have a wade through and see what there is.

I'm putting my name to my opinion too, which is that I don't really think this is something we should be encouraging with workshops.

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Hehehehehe......If people read what I have written they would realise that all I am saying is that it can look good and that some, not all, of the 'artists' have a talent. I agree that most is nothing more than wanton vandalism, but I'd rather worry about other anti-social types of juvenile behaviour - only this morning I find my wing mirror at an obscure angle because I politely asked a couple of lads to play footy somewhere else...after my car was repeatedly hit....graffiti is largely an eyesore but its the thing I least worry about.

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Stick by your guns mate. It would be Bluddy Boring if we all agreed on everything.

I tried sending you some karma, but it won't let me. Pooh!

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I agree with you Ceejache that some of them have talent but I wish it could be channelled in other directions and not encouraged as graffiti. I sort of suspect too that those with talent wouldn't be interested in a workshop because they probably feel there's nothing of benefit to them whereas it is more likely to attract kids who've never done any graffiti but once they are taught how they then might decide to give it a go in the "real world"

Another interesting point I noticed following up a link from that site - a website whose owner insists that graffiti "artists" should show respect for each other by not painting over someone else's work. What about showing respect for the owner of the wall who probably painted it plain white in the first place?

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I assume that you are referring to the person who took away one of your Karma points? Who ever it was, it is their perogative.....but other than this thread, you usually make a good imput so I am sure that you will soon make it up:)

As for this particular thread, Ifty summed it up in just three words "Graffiti makes slums!"

Well done Ifty! :thumbsup:

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All I have said different to any else is that some who do it have talent. Its not the points thats I care about - its the reasoning behind it that annoys me...that and the anonymity of the sniping - it doesn't make much sense to me! Oh well.....nevermind! Moving on!

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Sorry Cejache,

At the start of the thread, you agreed with the council that it was a good idea to encourage kids to be trained in the "art" of graffiti!

That is your choice and full marks to you for saying it! Unfortunately, it seems as if most, if not all members of this site cannot see your point of view :( In an ideal world, youngsters would be "trained" to create art as a career and go on to benefit all, but we all know that if you show an 18 year old how to push the button on a spraycan, the world (or wall) is his oyster!

Great pieces of art can come from a can, you only have to look at the spectacular trucks that go up the M6,.........but if you label the course "graffiti" you are going to attract the wrong type of teenager and they will decorate anything they can in the name of Art!

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That's the nature of the Karma system. I lost points for appreciating the fact that we've still got free parking in Accy! (At the time nobody else could come up with anything they could praise the council for but somebody felt the need to deduct karma from me.) I still think it's a great asset to have free parking in the town and it does encourage people to visit. So there you are. I stand by my guns on that one. It would be even better if we had something worth visiting for when they've parked, lol. (No, not a graffiti mural please!) :D

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To be trained to be responsible with it of course - I doubt whether irresponsible, loutish sorts would even consider attending a course like this. Its a nice attempt by HBC to tackle a problem...even if it is a little misguided.

The whole karma thing sucks to be honest - both you and I (and others) have lost karma for nothing - wouldn't it be better for people just to post and say when they have a problem with what has been said? I know I would appreciate that more! :-)

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CJ, the only reason you've occaisionally lost Karma is for being a knucklehead. How anyone can defend the right of people to go round paint spraying other peoples property while at the same time moan about your wing mirror being knocked out of kilter, is beyond me.


I'll tell you what: next time I'm back in Accy I'll come round and fix your mirror, providing of course , I can slap a bit of paint on your car bonnet. Deal?

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ooh lol that looks big!

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You're not going to get much Karma with that font and type, Willow...it hurts my eyes. It's worse than graffitti....

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The fact is I have never defended anyones right to spraypaint anothers property. How many times have I said that I agree that graffiti is an unsightly problem? I have posted in plain English so I cant understand why an obviously intelligent man such as yourself has failed to understand what I have said.

However...your candour is appreciated all the same. Car mirror fixed but thanks for the offer anyway.

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What do you mean, you've never defended those who manufacture graffitti? Whats all this garbage (above, post #13,)about then?

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This brings to mind a Reeves & Mortimer catchphrase:

...........he wouldn't let it lie!:rofl38:

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For the love of God.......! I have made my point numerous times in different fashions for those who find it hard to understand, I would have thought that anyone can see that I do not condone vandalous graffiti as I have stated it on two/three occasions. Here it is again for the last time -

1. I do not condone graffiti on other peoples property be it personal or public.

2. Some of the graffiti I have seen though has been quite artistic and the people who have spent time on it obviously have a talent. Unfortunately these examples have in the most part been illustrated on other peoples property.

3. I have no problem with graffiti being done in set-aside areas - if the anti-social aspect of this phenomena can be confined then that is to the benefit of everyone.

4. If through this course the people who indulge in such activities can learn that it is not acceptable to graffiti gratuitously then great.

What I will not let lie is people deliberately misinterpreting what I have said and accusing me of saying things that I obviously have not. If people diagree with the above points then fine..no worries..but dont call me a 'knucklehead' for saying the opposite from what I have been accused of!

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Hey Ceejache have you noticed how many Karma points you've got now? :)

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Ceejache, I take on board points 1,2 and 3 that you made but my problem is that as I said earlier, if a course has the word "graffiti" in it, the wrong type of youngster will be attracted to it.....and the council are too stupid and PC motivated to say NO to them!

Regards no. 4, With the street attitude today, I just cannot believe that the "students" are suddenly going to be upright citizens on completion of this course. They will learn what they want to learn...and reject any teachings that will lower their street cred!

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Only just found this thread.... Been in hospital and computer broke...:(

Ceejache you are 100% CORRECT........................................... .......

How many YOB'S are going to go to college to LEARN an art?????????????????

So it is NOT going to increase yobbish behaviour......YEH........

Karate/martial arts is a good example I have known a few people who at the time of going to learn a martial art may have fought in the street.......... After learning the ART of fighting would never fight in the street..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They did not need to they had the inner calm of confidence and did not need to prove anything....:)

A problem solved not created.... Knowledge is a VERY powerful thing..

You can have some karma when it lets me :)

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Its took me a long time to read the whole thread on here and I would just like to add my point of view.

Lets face it no one wants to see mindless graffitti spread all over town. End of. I think every post on this thread agrees with that. What I would like to see is, like Ceejache, is a designated area where 'kids' can do this. Look at the skate park on St James' Square, every drove past there recently. I honestly think that has been one of the best things HBC has done with its money, and god knows this doesn't happen too often. The skate park hs solved the problem of Skaters hanging out around the town hall and town centre being a nuisance. As often graffitti and skating seem to go hand in hand, that park has become a sort of grafitti centre, and mostly it is contained to inside the walls away from view.

I totally agree with Ceejache, HBC should set out similar 'areas' and if I may be so bold to name it, please dont laugh, 'an urban gallery'......

Lets face it, vandalism and crime is born largely out of boredom...give the kids something to do and somewhere to do it.