Execution in Iraq
 

I have just watched the video posted on the internet of the execution yesterday of the American hostage in Iraq.

I came across it quite by accident, and now I curse my curiosity.

It was, without doubt, the single, most horrific, most obscence event I have ever witnessed. No one should have to die like that. Quite how the perpetrators of this crime against humanity can live with themselves is beyond me.


All our prayers should be with the remaining hostages and their families tonight.

I will not post the address of the video, please don't ask.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

thanks bob quite a lot of people will agree with you there, just waiting to see how the other hostages are & wether they will be ok, yes our prayers should be with all the families & hostages.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

The BBC have just announced that the second American hostage has been murdered.

I cannot begin to imagine what the remaining British hostage must be going through at this moment.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

They were asking why the English hostage had been left untill last???
This may be me being a little naive but i would assume that if there are 3 of them they will have picked one to be executed 1st and second, and it would be pure luck that the English hostage is to be the only one remaining.
But as pointed out more than once, i'm sure everybody's thoughts are with the family's of these men, who were working in this environment to help others. I for one am surely thinking of them.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

My finger has been poised over the keypad for a good five minutes but I am unable to put down the anger and frustration that I feel for these madmen.

In previous kidnap situations in Iraq, the army have tended to find the kidnappers shortly after the murders (not a slur on our or U.S.forces) and after gun fire, they get killed but I know that I for one will not get any satisfaction from hearing about their deaths. Perhaps, if I knew they died slowly and in agony.........

If they meet their God Allah after death, I hope Allah kicks them in the ba***s before banishing them to Hell for what they have done! :mad:

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Terrible situation, and a terrible barbaric attrocity. As A-Bob said he doesnt know how the perpetrators can live with themselves.

Quite easy I'm afraid. "To kill an infidel is not a crime against Allah" (So my Muslim friends say, that this is written in the Qu'ran). So in their barbaric eyes they have do nothing wrong! And in fact will be rewarded in the Garden of Heaven for ridding the World of an infidel...................Stone Age?? or not so advanced??

A sad world indeed!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I'm sorry Darby, But that explanation holds very little water.

Even if scripture prescribes no penalty for the killing of people of a different faith or no faith, what happened to the two American hostages and is threatened for the British hostage is barbarity plain and simple. I cannot believe that any right thinking human being could condone such appalling savagery, no matter what Scripture allowed or disallowed.

The Old Testament allows me to keep slaves, does that make it morally right or acceptable?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I didn't try to explain or justify the actions taken. Just to add a fact to the whole question as to why barbarians are ..barbarians. Basically, religion, any religion, cannot stand competition from another religion, and they preach that they are always right!!

However, religion is only part of it, and certainly not all of it.

You state that "I cannot believe that any right thinking human being could condone such appalling savagery, no matter what Scripture allowed or disallowed. " I don't hear any vociferous condemnations from the Middle East or from amongst our own muslim society. Beheadings and amputations are common-place in Saudi...so to them it's an everyday occurrance.

I feel sorry for you in that you accidentally watched the video, I couldn't do it, as it would make me so angry :mad: :mad: :mad: I saw a punishment amputation once in Oman...never again!

Islam has been around for almost 1400 years, and they've not changed their attitudes one little bit...so I don't suppose we will make any difference. The majority of muslims (as reported in the press and on the media) are against the UK, USA, Germany, France et al...and probably privately, would support the terrorists, as they most certainly do not, as a majority, condemn their actions.

Even for daring to openly discuss the topics of Islamic Fundemantalism, and to criticise anything Islamic, can normally result in punishment or even a "Fatwah" being issued to kill or maim the criticiser. The extreme-ism is widely applied throughout the muslim world, and we (to our eternal shame) apply the word "racism" to anybody who openly discusses such issues in an attempt to inform, and become more informed.

It's just a shame that we cannot simply sit down and debate or discuss what is wrong and what can be done to improve the situation with one another, and without diatribe or aggression.

As for those poor souls who were beheaded......may God (everybodys God) help them and their families :( :(

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

No personal criticism of you was intended, Darby.

I am just absolutely disgusted, demoralised and heart sick. Which is, I suppose, in part, what the extremists intend. I cannot get that poor man's cries out of my head.

Moving on to the larger question though, it does start to make you wonder just what sort of vipers we are nursing in our bosom.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Non was taken A-Bob. I know we are both mature enough to discuss things sensibly.

I too feel like you do about the whole issue. Hiding our heads in the sand will never make anything better...a sad, sad world, full of sick people!!

I look at my sons, and my 2 grandchildren, and I'm seriously worried for them. Did we cock everything up?
I've spent my life fighting ignorance and trying to help people....it all seems a waste... but I still have a glimmer of hope with a lot of the young people of today, and I know my kids and their kids are a credit to myself, my wife and my family, and to a just and free society!! Lets hope we still have one in the next few years!!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I firmly believe that religion has been responsible for more deaths throughout history than disease. Blind adherence to any faith is dangerous - go back just four hundred years, and we were burning heretics in this country - a truly horrible way to die.

We have moved on, the fanatic adherents of Islam have not. They are where we were back at the days of the crusades - one can only hope it won't take them nearly 1000 years to catch up.

Also, we are often told that the Q'ran says this and that - how do we know that this is really the case? There is nothing in the Q'ran (and I have this on the authority of a Saudi Muslim friend) to justify the treatment of women in Islamic countries - in Sharia law, adultery is no crime for men, but women can be killed for a mild sexual indiscretion (short of adultery) because they have "dishonoured" their family. Where does it say in the Q'ran that women cannot drive cars? - forbidden in Saudi.

There will always be psychopaths, and such people will use any excuse, religion, a political cause, to justify their sick actions. These people are not just religious fanatics, they are dangerous psychopaths. No normal human being could behave like this.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I to have a strong feeling on this one that is SICK. These so called people! should be hunted down if i was to murder someone then i would be tracked down and punished for the crime what will happen to these guys? Nothing instead they get what they want Dr Germ to be freed today will that stop them in future probably not now they have a hold on the english and the americans what they gonna do next decapitate some other poor guy, woman or child and ask for saddam? where will it stop? Also at the end of the day it sont matter to these people who they kill even there own if it means they get what they want it will have to stop somewhere. But where.

you know man is the only mammal to kill with no other reason but wanting to do so!!!!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

you know man is the only mammal to kill with no other reason but wanting to do so!!!![/QUOTE]
Not quite true, mummiboo - if a fox gets into a hencoop, it will kill all the hens, although it will only take one or at most two to eat. It's programmed to do that.

However, people are supposed to be able to think. The majority of people have a horror of killing, even by accident, but there is a small minority, true psychopaths, who do not feel like the rest of us normal people - the world revolves around them, their ideas, and their desires - and so you get paedophiles, serial killers, and scum like the so-called militant and patriotic Iraqis.

Whether or not you believe in God, believe in evil - it truly does exist, even if it tries to wear the cloak of belief in God and religion.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

>>Whether or not you believe in God, believe in evil - it truly does exist, even if it tries to wear the cloak of belief in God and religion.<<

Interesting. Is this possibly what is what is referred to in 'Revelations'? Where it talks about false prophets and that sort of thing.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

The words "nail" and "head" come to mind there A-b.

I just cannot find words to describe how this makes me feel. Whatever I say will seem far too small. I just keep asking myself "How could they?"

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I too have seen this obscenity. It shook me down to my boots. These people are the most inhumane creatures that ever lived. One can only hope that the bereaved families do not see it.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

How do you manage to find things like that accidentally? All I ever do is read my email and visit sites I already know or am told about. Maybe I'm just lucky but I never seem to accidentally come across those sort of things in searches.

My heart really goes out to the families of the people murdered (I refuse to call it execution) and to the remaining hostage.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

>>How do you manage to find things like that accidentally?<<

I do a lot of browsing on unusual subject headings.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I noticed that the killings are on the internet and in todays modern era I am sure the different groups contact each other through email, im, etc plus they have web sites like Al Jazirra,s, why cant the USA or UK come up with a virus or worm that will knock out the computers? just a thought.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

For the same reasons that governments cannot block sites that carry child pornography. Plus the use of a virus or worm would potentially threaten the whole of the internet, and I don't think that would stop either the kidnappings or the murders.

I remember at the height of the IRA bombing campaign that the government decided to prevent IRA spokesmen from speaking in the media, the idea being to deny them 'the oxygen of publicity' as Mrs. Thatcher put it at the time. Which resulted in the ridiculous performance of the BBC showing pictures of Gerry Adams speaking but having his words dubbed in by a reporter. The media will always find a way around restrictions, because it is Bad News that sells papers!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Funny, isn't it, how we saw them all complaining loudly and at length about poor Cat Stevens being denied entry into the United States yesterday. How unfair and unjust it was when Mr. Stevens was such a good Muslim and had never done anything wrong, except, perhaps, chanelled money to extremists and terrorists.

And still hardly a word from them about Ken Bigley.

And now it is announced, this morning, that two Italian Hostages may have been killed.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

My thoughts exactly A-B re:the Cat Stevens incident. Up in arms when one Muslim is refused entry to a country, hardly a peep (to my knowledge) when two, and possibly a third, innocents Christian civilians trying to rebuild a Muslim country are executed in a manner that is beyond reasonable folk worldwide....

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I will pass on to you all these two links to different articles on the same site. American friends, who are far more clued up on these matters than I, are regarding it as a CIA funded disinformation site. What do you think?


http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=148

http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=144

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

You've just got to take it at face value haven't you?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

We have no way of knowing who funds the site. In fact I'm sure there are many things we will never know about which go on behind the scenes. Those two articles show two totally opposing points of view and this is why we must never put labels on people.

As I was reading the first article I was thinking about things which have been done by the leaders in this country (political and religious) and asking myself if I would ever consider it my place to apologise for their actions. I doubt it. The only things I consider I need to apologise for are things which I have done myself, which is why that article impresses me so much. The author is evidently deeply concerned even though not personally responsible.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I wasn't looking for it, but came across perhaps the same site that you saw A-b, I tried to be selective in viewing the 1st video, but witnessed the killing of a driver from Egypt, and that affected me badly, I didn't attempt to open any more video images....... What makes these middle eastern T.V. companies broadcast such sick video's??

What makes it worse is that I found the site (in a roundabout way) from a link on this site!! message to Ifty, I know that you are not to blame personally and that your religion is not at fault, BUT ALL THESE VIDEO CLIPS ARE SUPPOSEDLY IN THE NAME OF ALLAH!

This is not something that a western government can put right, It is a virus that has embedded itself deep in the heart of Iraq and Pakistan! I once said that "only you could solve the problem" I did not mean you personally, but if the Moslem population would help more in ridding the world of scum and murderers, british citizens like yourself would feel that you are totally accepted as "one of us."

I was so pleased to hear that in Blackburn, there was a meeting of Moslems to condemn the kidnap of Ken Bigley, fantastic, but the people to be influenced are the fanatics in your country of origin AND THEIR T.V. COMPANY!!

They are doing so much damage to your religion, I hope that you, being english, can understand the torments that run through the mind of every christian person, We try not to blame religion, but it is so hard...........

I feel that those at fault are using the Moslem religion as an excuse to murder or maim innocent people, The world must unite!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Obviously you are very concerned Busman, and I think you are right to be so.

Unfortunately it is religion that causes the world's problems...all of the religions.

Islam is intolerant of any other religion in their midst. Apostates are to be put to death!! and infidels can be killed without committing a crime against Allah!!

Christians believe that only they are right and promote the extension of their religion, increasingly seeking the young and naieve!

Jews think that they are the "chosen" people!

There is no end to what can be said for or against religion. Unfortunately, that's todays world!!

, You're not trying to start a Crusade, are you?

There's only two types of people in this world...Good and Bad!! and that's very subjective!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I wish I could answer this but I don't have the right words.

I've tried, but abandoned each attempt.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Darby what you say is quoting only what some people say. It doesnt make everybody mean the same.

Willow say it.

Busman people can say it in the name of what they choose. I know some Christain do the same and it doesnt make them represent the whole.

Let me ask YOU Busman

If people believe ONE THING and think other people of same religion different group are wrong what makes you think they are going to listen to THE PEOPLE THEY THINK HAVE GOT IT WRONG?????

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

As I said...there are Good and Bad people...whatever is said or quoted.

On this site I don't assume anything about anybody. Here, we are all what we endevour to be, and Ifty could really be an Eskimo for all I know. I could be George Bush for all Ifty knows.

I don't hate anybody or anything....I just have strong dislikes and strong likes.
There's too much HATE in this world without me adding to it!

But GOOD and BAD will always be there!! Unfortunately Religion is the cause of much hatred...and bloodshed. Try to look at life without confusing Religion, Truth, and Humanity. I don't defend any religion......none are worth my efforts.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I won't pretend to understand the Moslem religion but one thing I do know is that its believers fervently listen to their leaders as demonstrated by the meeting last Sunday in Blackburn. (Personally, I wouldn't even cross the road to hear what my vicar has to say but I appreciate the dedication of others)
The vast majority of Muslims in this country would do all that is asked of them so why is it not more so in Eastern Europe?

Recently, two representatives travelled from England to help the plight of Ken Bigely. In a bid to secure his release, they went straight to their religious leaders to ask for help in contacting the abductors........

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Most of the people involved with the kidnappings are Arab nationals from different countries and with the mind set of giving impossible demands knowing they wont be carried out, it is a way of generating money from the rich Arab countries that have been investing in terrorism for years in Plastine. Stop the money from Saudi and the Emirates and you will start to see a reduction in the amount of Arabs in the country therefore a reduction in Kidnapping.


Whilst on the subject of how religion helps fanatics have we forgotten how the priests sheltered the IRA and made it hard for the troops to catch those involved plus taking a cut for the "church".

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Rather interesting article here. It's a bit of a long read, but worth the trouble, I think. It has a lot to say re the origins of the war on terror and the war in Iraq.

http://lawandpolitics.blogspot.com/2...05119098723224

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Apologies for a bit of a thread wander here. I realise there were/are probably priests who sympathise(d) with the IRA cause but there is also the case of moral dilemma. If an IRA member confessed to a priest surely the priest would be bound by the confidentiality of the confessional? I've known this dilemma arise in other cases where people have broken the law and confessed to their priest. The confession is meant to be between man (woman) and God with the priest merely acting as a go-between isn't it?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

You make mistake here thinking Islam is all one. This is not so.

You told me something of Christian Church of England which makes its own war on another church and sahying lies which you say are not what you experience of it.

See Islam this way. People in Blackburn go to mosq and listen. People think this is week will not listen to those they believe are week and wrong. They are not the ones who will listen to this meeting.

Let me tell you what Quran says.
Say: 'O unbelievers,
I serve not what you serve
and you are not serving what I serve,
nor am I serving what you have served,
neither are you serving what I serve.
To you your religion, and to me my religion.'

This is what Allah said to Prophet Muhammad.

This does not say kill who do not have our religion. It says judgement belongs to God the all-High the all-Great.

Christian, Moslem, Jew all believe Moses a prophet. Moses is your name but same person. God gave to prophet Moses commandments one saying DO NOT KILL. But Jew, Christian and Moslem kills. Leaders who beleive in peace will speak peace but if peiople follow another leader they dont listen to the one who speaks peace.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Ifty,

It's not just what is said...it's what is done! And, I do not doubt your sincerity...But:-

Would you support and protect a muslim who advocated violence and death to the infidels, or would you support and protect the infidel against such muslims?

Or would you turn away and let them get on with it?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

There are several things that disturb me about all this religious clap-trap. If the Deity is as we are expected to believe, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. I find it monstrously arrogant that anyone could dare to stand up and say that they knew what the deity intended, or that they are “doing God’s work”. There seem to be an apalling number of folk prepared to force on us their own narrow interpretation of scripture.

If the Deity is the author of scripture, and cares so much about the reality it created. Then why are there no updates to scripture to take account of the changes in human society over the last couple of thousand years? Why must we rely on laws, strictures and commandments that were formulated when men still believed that the earth was flat and that if you sailed too close to the edge you might fall off?

The old testament, which supposedly unites Jew, Christian and Muslim as “the people of the book”, permits the most appalling abuses as well as forbidding the most ridiculous of things, look at the book of Leviticus. How can any sane rational person living in the 21st century believe that this nonsense is still pertinent to the way that the world is constituted now? I can accept that the Ten Commandments handed down to Moses form a reasonable set of ethics by which, even today, a person might order his or her life. But I have real difficulty with the idea that the biological necessity of menstruation invalidates half the population, and renders any man who touches a menstruating woman ritually unclean. The further you think that stricture through, the more ridiculous it becomes.

We live in a secular, pluralist society, that is tolerant of belief and unbelief, which is why we permit the practise of different faiths in what is, historically and nominally, a Christian country. Were we as restrictive as the Old Testament demands, then we would live in a country roughly analogous to Afghanistan under the Taliban. That we do not live under such a regime is due to the free flow of ideas and influences from outside the country. It is due to our preparedness to question what we believe and why we believe it. And it is due to our refusal to be slavishly bound to outdated, outmoded and restrictive prescriptions on the use and meaning of life.

While I accept that belief in any deity is, and must always be, available to all, I do not, or will not accept that the restrictions imposed by that belief should be applied to all. The limitations imposed by belief are self-imposed limitations, and it is unreasonable and arrogant to expect that society should afford the believer a status above that accorded to any other citizen.

Until Islam and its adherents accept this fact of life there will always be strife between it and the rest of the world.

It is all very well for people to start quoting scripture in support of the manifestly insupportable. Anyone can do that. Scripture, like statistics, can be manipulated to suit the occasion. What is more difficult and requires moral courage is to speak first from the heart, ally that speech with the intellect and then stand by your words.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Outstanding, and very well put A-Bob....

Logic and common sense!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

[QUOTE=Ifty]You told me something of Christian Church of England which makes its own war on another church and sahying lies which you say are not what you experience of it.[QUOTE]

At this moment in time Ifty, the one "great" war in the world is between the Islamic Zealots and the rest of the world.:(

There have been many religious wars in the history of mankind but most religions now conduct themselves in a way more fitting of the 21st century. The religions are "fighting" in a political sense to get "bums on seats" in their own particular church! but not with bullets or bombs.

It is true that the IRA fought a bloody battle with the Brits just a few years ago, but they did not have the full support of their countries parliament, and they had a specific objective IE: To bring back Northern Ireland to Eire.

I view these Islamic thugs in the same light, in that they do not speak for their country or religion, but the difference between them and the likes of the IRA is that they have provoked the entire world, western and neighbouring Arabic countries by outrageous actions that defy words.

I am sure that as a pure Muslim, you must agree that these people must be stopped. They want the entire world not only to be Muslim, but to incite believers to kill without mercy any "infidels" they can find.

I am not Muslim, but can contently live in a mainly Muslim area (I probably do:) ) I do not wake up in the morning thinking that I must kill a Moslim to make my day complete, In fact, the last thing on my mind, when I greet someone on the street is "Oh god, What religion is he or she!) I think most people feel the same way as I!

Accrington is in my opinion, one of the most intergrated towns in the U.K. and I am proud of becoming part of that culture. I am angry whenever I hear about the attrocities done in the name of Allah, but don't take it personally, my anger is aimed at those who use your religion as an excuse to torture innocent people to satisfy their blood lust.:mad:

I accept and believe that most Moslems are people that just want to get on with their lives, We only have a few years each on this planet and when death comes, all will be revealed (or not!)

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

You talk about IRA and this was Christian fighting Christian. What I'm trying to show you. All Christian do not agree with each other and can fight. Ok you tell me this is political not Christian. THIS IS WHAT I MEAN,

I'm not talking IRA about if govermenmt there supports or not. This is a different subject but I think you are wrong in it also from what I know. I could be wrong.

I do not wake up in the morning thinking I must kill Christians or make them Moslem. I go to chiop shop whichj is Chineese and I dont say to mysself is he Christain or Mslem. I just buy chips. Its not about that.

You all keep saying Islam must do something about this. Moslem of Britain must do something. Take a stand against it.

Ok so you understand IRA situation you think. So think about it like this. IRA killing peoiple are saying this is Roman Catholic way. Does that mean ALL ROMAN CATHOLIC in England are responsible? Does that mean IRA will listen to Roman Catholic in Britain saying dont do this? EVEN THE SAME! EVEN ROMAN CATHOLIC they will not because they are Ireland fighters. Yes?

Ok so you say Moselm of Britain must do something about extreemist in Iraq. I TRY TO TELL YOU. These are NOT THE SAME. You tell of peolpel in Blackburn who listen to their leader. YES YES YES. They listen to THEIR leader but he is not leader of Moslem executioner in Iraq. THEY are not going to listen to some people they do not believe is right.

You have Church of England. Is vicar of St. Peters going to listen to Roman Catholic pope? If St Peters is doing something people in Italy say to pope you must make them stop. How is he going to do it? St Peters vicar does not believe Pope is right Christianity so HE WILL NOT LISTEN. He has his own leader. Bishop of Canterbury. Do you not understand?

These people say Moslem who will not fight is wrong. Moslem who will not fight say executing Moslem is wrong. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

I cannot change these people. Its not about fighting Americans. This is not why they do this. Why do they do this? I tell you why they do this. They do this to get more people to join! You don't believe me? IT WORKS! Young men see and think this is a glory thing and they go to join. Its true I tell you. They leave normal life and they go. You think they dont go from here? You think by then they are going to listen to leaders they have left? NO NO NO.

Dont ask me to solbve it. I cant.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Ifty, You are obviously a man of conscience, and feel very strongly about the issues. Thank you, at least you are addressing the topic, and trying to apply your logic to it.

I firmly believe (although I haven't seen it with my own eyes), that you are correct when you say that those who believe and are peacefull cannot influence those who want to kill. You are probably closer to the realities of Islamic code and attitudes than most of us.

But, if we all say that we cannot change those who would go from their families and friends to the middle east to fight and kill the infidels, then we have failed in our beliefs. We should never say that we cannot change people. It happens all the time.....just as those who come from good homes and apply their religion faithfully, would never go to kill infidels, just because they see it on TV, and hear about it daily...........but they do!

This current upsurge in religion, especially islamic, is (I believe) caused by a dissatisfaction with western values and life. But nobody made anybody accept the western values and life styles. I personally, don't like the current trends in our society either. But I an civilised enough to know that it can be changed without recourse to violence or political activity.

Those of us who are old enough know that if we change our children, and they change their children....the we can set the example that can change other children... ad infinitum. Unfortunately the press and media make the battle even more difficult by pedling tripe at every opportunity...but that's another story. My sons and my grandchildren have an honest and open viewpoint, but one thing they learnt for sure is: "the difference between WRONG and RIGHT"

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I hope that I can bring up my children to live as I would want them to, but there are so many outside influences these days. As you say the press and media make the battle very difficult. I have friends who have done their best to bring their children up with the values they would like them to have throughout life but sadly that doesn't stop one or two of them "going off the rails". I find myself struggling. Even at school they are influenced by the people they come into contact with - even the teachers in some cases.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

It is easy to make sweeping generalisations about people and events, easy, but wrong. The current discussions concerning the IRA are a case in point. The Irish situation has its roots in history and is more about the conquest and subjugation of Ireland by England than it is about religion. There are similar simmering resentments in Scotland and Wales and also to a lesser extent in Cornwall and Brittany. The Basque region of Spain is another example.

There is a wealth of evidence to support the idea that this is a common trait in peoples of the P1, P2 and P3 Celtic groups. It makes little difference what the current issue of contention is. They would argue about what day it was if there was nothing more convenient to hand and still come out of the argument feeling cheated at having been proved either wrong or right. Moreover, they will still be arguing on Judgement Day and I have no doubt that they will all feel equally as hard done by then too.

Occasionally the arguments become heated and get out of hand. In the past it was limited to a bit of a punch up and stealing cattle. Irish and Welsh poetry of the dark ages is full of that sort of thing. Here, in the north of England, we are familiar with Scottish border raiders, who came south to steal a few cows and cause a bit of an upset.

The ready supply of armaments in the twentieth century has added a more deadly edge to the tenor of these arguments and has caused horrific injury and untold misery. But the arguments continue, going round and round in pointless circles.

To say that the conflict is primarily a clash of religions misses the point entirely. To use the current conflict in Ireland as an analogy, when considering the actions of Islamic extremists is a mistake.



Before any of you leap to the defence of the old country, please bear in mind that I have Irish and Breton antecedents, and thus I know whereof I speak – Dear God, do I know!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I also have Irish roots and have opinions on the IRA which I won't go into here beyond saying that anything which calls itself the IRA these days is far removed from what that organisation originally was.

It's not so much about the subjugation of Ireland by England as the retention of the six northern counties when partition took place. The "Irish question" as it used to be known is a very complex one and isn't helped by people constantly reliving the past. We live in the present and the only place we can go from here is the future.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Fair points Willow, but isn't it also true that to know where you are and where you are going you must also know where you have been?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

A-Bob and Willow........The Irish thing is a non-discussion event.....

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Knowing where you've been isn't the same as keep trying to go back there and blame the past for all today's ills instead of getting on with it and trying to make improvements. It would be impossible to please everyone in most situations but the Irish one even more so.

I remember seeing a documentary once about how people deal with traumatic childhood experiences. Some dwell on it and blame the past for everything that goes wrong in their lives. Others grow from it and use their experience to benefit others. You can't change the past but you can change how you respond to it and where you go from there.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Quite so Darby. My apologies to all for straying off thread. Let's return to the matter in hand.

It is said that since the Koran was dictated by God that not a single word of it may be altered. Would someone then enlighten me concerning the Saudi funding of the Wahhabi version of the Koran which is distributed free, or at little cost throughout the world. To my way of thinking, it is to this version that we owe a large measure of the upsurge in Islamic fundamentalism. It will not be forgotten at this juncture that bin Laden is also from Saudi Arabia.

"The Wahhabi Koran is notable in that, while Muslims believe that their sacred text was dictated by God and cannot be altered, the Saudi English version adds to the original so as to change its sense in a radical direction. For example, the opening chapter, or surah, is known as Fatiha, and is recited in Muslim daily prayer and (among non-Wahhabis) as a memorial to the dead. The four final lines of Fatiha read, in a normal rendition of the Arabic original (such as this translation by N.J. Dawood, published by Penguin Books): Guide us to the straight path, / The path of those whom You have favored, / Not of those who have incurred Your wrath, / Nor of those who have gone astray.
The Wahhabi Koran renders these lines: Guide us to the Straight Way. / The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who have earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians). The Wahhabi Koran prints this translation alongside the Arabic text, which contains no reference to either Jews or Christians.
There is nothing to indicate to the uninformed reader that these interpolations, printed in parentheses, are absent from the Arabic. The reader encountering Islam for the first time, as well as the Muslim already indoctrinated in Wahhabism, is led to believe that the Koran denounces all Jews and Christians, which it does not.

There are, of course, many individuals who are unprepared to read this translation with a critical eye. This is especially true wherever Wahhabis conduct the missionary outreach called dawa--above all in prisons in Europe, the United States and elsewhere. Indeed, it is to just such readers that this edition is directed. The Wahhabi Koran is also a mainstay of Muslim student groups on campuses throughout the West.
Distortions of the text stating or implying that God has condemned the Jews and Christians are scattered throughout the Wahhabi Koran. Notably, they invert the meaning of the several verses that express respect for the "People of the Book," the Jews and Christians. Thus, verse 2:62 in its authentic form states: Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans--whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is
right--shall be rewarded by their Lord. (The Sabaeans were followers of an ancient religion impossible to identify clearly today.) In the Saudi English translation, this passage is footnoted to declare, No other religion except Islam will be accepted from anyone, although no such statement appears in the Arabic.
The standard translation of verse 3:113 reads: There are among the People of the Book some upright men who all night long recite the revelations of God and worship Him, who believe in God and the Last Day, who enjoin justice and forbid evil.
The Saudi translation again inserts verbiage hostile to non-Muslims. In the Wahhabi Koran, the upright Jews and Christians turn out to be those who convert to Islam: those enjoining Islamic Monotheism and following Prophet Muhammad and not opposing Prophet Muhammad. To repeat, where the Arabic text actually praises pious Jews and Christians, the Wahhabi English version praises only Jews and Christians who become Muslims.
The original verse 5:65 says of the Jews and Christians: If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what is revealed to them from their Lord, they shall enjoy abundance.
The Wahhabi edition adds that, in addition to Jews' observing the Torah and Christians' the New Testament, both must accept the Koran--that is, become Muslims--which nowhere appears in the Arabic text and conflicts with traditional Islamic theology. Mainstream Islam treats the Torah, the New Testament, and the Koran as different books. Wahhabism, by contrast, treats the Jewish and Christian scriptures as primitive editions of the Islamic text.
And, inevitably, the Wahhabi Koran adds language aggravating Muslim-Jewish controversies. Verse 17:1 refers to the night journey, an out-of-body experience in which the Prophet Muhammad was taken on a magical steed to a site called in the standard text the farther Temple. The Wahhabi translation alters this to stake the Islamic claim to Jerusalem. It refers to Muhammad's journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem).
Contempt for non-Muslims suffuses Saudi translations of the Islamic holy book.The same bigotry is integral to the creed taught at the Imam Mohammed Ibn-Saud Islamic University and spread around the world by preachers and missionaries funded by the Saudi royal family."

Schwartz,S. Rewriting the Koran: A bigoted Saudi Translation

The Weekly Standard (US) 27/09/04

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Once again A-Bob, excellent stuff and right on the nail.

What about us non-believers though? Or those of another religion?

I think we are down-and-out Infidels.....We don't deserve to live??

Well researched A-Bob....I like it!!! Respect!!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I rather think that we are included among those who are "gone astray". How very careless and cavalier of us.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Yeah................ I always thought of myself as a bit of a stray.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

The other thing that puzzles me about religion, in general, is this: If The deity is, supposedly, omniscient then it already knows how this is all going to turn out and has always known. It has always known who the good ones are and who the sinners are, who tried their best and who just paid lip service to the idea.
If this is already known then what is the point?
Why make such a song and dance about giving us free will, when it is so blatantly nothing of the kind? And what's with the charade of giving us Christians his only son to die for our sins. It's very considerate, I'm sure, but as offers go it seems a bit illogical to go to such extremes when as an omnipotent being you could, if you chose, wipe them out anyway.

And another thing, why does revelation of any kind have to be delivered in such ridiculously ambiguous language. If you are going to give the plot away, then give it away, I see little point or sense in all this coquettish mystification. All it does is serve to sow dissention and discord because people cannot agree on what it all means.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

So if you put it in context marketing was around in 0000, I will give you my only son to die for you and therefore you will follow me for a few thousand years, when in reality he couldnt die as he was part of the "family".
Wonder how he conviced him to do it?
It'll be fine JC, the nails may hurt a bit but hey you gotta give em something. After Moses screwed up th fifteen commandments were losing in the diety stakes. Do it for the family.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Are you confusing "all knowing" with fortunetelling A-b? Knowing what everyone is up to isn't the same as knowing what they are going to do at every given opportunity. I like to know what my kids are getting up to and I like to think that I know how they will react to a given situation, but I am also prepared to allow them a certain amount of freedom of choice and hope that they make the choices I approve of.

I wish I could explain myself more eloquently because there is a great deal I would like say but just don't know how to explain it properly.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

You seem to have contradicted yourself here. Yes of course God could have chosen to wipe out the consequences of all sin but in doing so would it really have taught anyone anything? Would anyone have any incentive not to sin? You claim that our free-will is blatantly nothing of the kind and yet the suggestion you make would certainly be just that - we would not be free agents, free to choose between right and wrong as we currently are.

Isn't it better that we have the chance to learn? Oh and BTW he didn't give his son to "us Christians" Christ gave his life for the whole of humanity - Christianity hadn't been invented then.


The basic Gospel is plain as a pike staff (come to think of it - what is a pike staff and exactly how plain is one?)

See what I mean? When the various books of the Bible were written the wording and style of writing was clear to those who wrote it. They used terminology of their day in much the same way we do. I don't even know what a pike staff is and yet I used reference to it in order to emphasise my point.

The basic truths of Christian scripture are so plain and simple that people miss them.
1. Believe that Jesus Christ is the Saviour.
2. Repent of all wrong doing
3. Change your ways and follow him
4. Be guided by the Holy Spirit

The rest follows.

And on the subject of Commandements, although we were originally given 10, these were added to and embellished to such an extent during Old Testament times that Jesus had a thing or two to say on the subject himself. He boiled it all down to two basic principles.
1. Love God
2. Love other people

Yes, I'm a Christian and I'm willing to say so categorically and I feel great sorrow when I read posts ridiculing the sacrifice Christ was willing to endure on behalf of all of us. I may not be very popular for saying this but I'm more than willing to be unpopular in this instance.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Not even in a new thread? I don't see anyone else objecting. Funnily enough it hasn't even been objected to by moderators as a threadwander. Perhaps it had a valid place in the general theme of the discussion.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

The basic truths of Christian scripture are so plain and simple that people miss them.
1. Believe that Jesus Christ is the Saviour.
2. Repent of all wrong doing
3. Change your ways and follow him
4. Be guided by the Holy Spirit

But christianity has told so many lies and hasnt followed these rules themselves. History has proved someone around the time of Christ was a leader and as the Romans put it a rabal rouser, was he born on 25 dec? all proof is probably march but changed to fit in with pagan beliefs, his entry in to Jeruslem not spring (easter) more like July/Aug again changed to take over a pagan festival.
The pope is the leader of the christians but what a history The concern about papal weakness after the debacle of the Great Schism caused Renaissance popes to emphasize the consolidation of their political position first, followed by religious reforms. The second and last of the Spanish popes literally bought his pontificate with bribes. Such a purchased election is called "simoniacal," and was easily accomplished with the greed of seventeen of the twenty-two cardinals.
During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. Side "benefits" included taking the material wealth of its victims and showing the pope's power. The Catholic Inquisitors tortured, crippled, burned, and imprisioned millions of people. Whatever happened to love your enemies? (Matthew 5:44)
Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I’m sorry Gobsmacked, I don’t agree.

The adjective “omniscient” means, according to OED, “knowing everything”.
If you read what I wrote you will see that I attempted to posit the idea that the whole performance is pointless, from beginning to end. What is the point of setting humanity the challenge of learning anything if it is already known who will learn and who will not and also to whatever degree. A bit like setting children an exam, when you already have the results in your hand.
What is the point of saying to humanity “ you have the freedom to sin or not to sin” and sitting there smugly stroking your white beard because you know which ones are going to sin and which are not. And what is then the point of sending a Messiah who will suffer death to remit the sins of humanity and then insist that you should still atone for those sins, and, moreover, one who will save all those who came after him but not the ones that went before. Talk about Indian giving. I have the distinct feeling that we are being played with here, either that or the four evangelists were making it up as they went along.
(BTW a pikestaff is a wooden pole about 12 to 15 feet long often with a nasty, sharp, metal stabbing bit on the end, very much the WMD of the 15th to 17th centuries. Beefeaters carry shortened versions.)
The basic gospel is as plain as a pikestaff is it? Well, yes, I suppose it is.

Luke 22:36. “Then he said unto them, but now, he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword let him sell his garment to buy one”.


Matt 10:34-35. “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword. For I am come to set a man at varience against his father, and the daughter against the mother, and the daughter in law against the mother in law”.

Luke 12:52 “For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three”.

Mark 4:9-12 “And he said unto them, he that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked him of the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see and not perceive. And hearing they may hear and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them”.

Luke 14:26 “If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and bretheren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”.

I could go on but I think that will do for now. “The basic truths of Christian Scripture are so plain and simple that people miss them.” Are they, are they indeed?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

What bible are you using bob ?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

The King James Version as far as I am aware, which I picked up from a mormon site.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3565848 Sent me today by a ex comrade we visited this squadron earlier this year and met a lot of the lads who are involved out there pray they all get back safely

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

We are getting desperate when we have to use Rockapes to chase insurgents.:)

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Well that is the first English translation and the one I prefer to use. I once toyed with the idea of trying to learn to read the older things like Latin or even Hebrew/Greek but never got very far with that. I used to know a man who went to Cannon St Baptist church many years ago (He's dead now) and he was a great scholar, had studies lots of 'original text' and knew a great deal of background. He was amazing to talk to. Of course the Greek wasn't even original either because Jesus and his companions spoke Aramaic.

Of course to really understand you have to keep the verses in context. It's possible to make things say anything you like if you string a few bits together out of context. If you travel on a bit further from the verse about the sword you'll find that they had 2 and Jesus said that was enough - but later in Gethsemane when one was used to chop off the ear of a Roman soldier, he restored the ear. So he wasn't telling the disciples to attack the Romans by the look of that.

What was the site you were looking at?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Will do Keith. That gives us an insight into what it must be like out there and just how volatile people are.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

>>Of course to really understand you have to keep the verses in context. It's possible to make things say anything you like if you string a few bits together out of context.<<

Exactly! This little exercise shows how careful we all have to be. I'm sorry if I offended anyones sensibilities. That wasn't my intention. It is what is in your heart that matters and how you order your life by it , not what is on the page.

It doesn't take the world's greatest intellect to divine what is in the hearts of the barbarians who currently hold Ken Bigley hostage. Though sometimes it is difficult to sort through their wilful mangling of the truth. Sadly, it is not only the barbarians who are prepared to mangle the truth to suit their ends.

There is another pertinent quote from the New Testament which may serve us all well in the coming days and years, Matt 7:16

"By their fruits shall ye know them."

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

There's another good one after that too and I'll risk quoting this out of context myself:

"Not everyone that saith unto me "Lord Lord" shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven..............."

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Sorry Gobsmacked...That was not my point or intention. What I meant was: "that discussion of that subject was endless and wouldn't go anywhere. There has been enough talking about Protestants and Catholics...IRA - UDA for several generations and it goes absolutely nowhere".

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Sorry Willow, I know you mean well, but...
Please............... lets not have any quotes from the Bible...we get nowhere, and they are as endless as religion is!! And prove very little!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Unless of course Darby, This Book which has survived and been distributed more than any other, Was written by the Creator(yes using men to hold the pens) of all that is in the universe, and contained instruction's on how HE want's us to aim our live's ?? If that was true would it not be worth considering?? :)

P.s Any religion that goes to war or carries on in any act's of terror can not have Gods approval can it. since he condem's such act's in his instruction book. So any such Religion can be descarded as False.. :)

Only my opinion ;)

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's Simon and good to hear.

Alas there are those who will always disagree and it is their choice to do so. We just have to accept that. They will no more convince me that my beliefs are pointless any more than I am likely to convince them that they aren't. I just hope they don't get mad at me in the end for not trying hard enough.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

What do we now make of the news that Ken Bigley's brother has had his home in Amsterdam Raided by British And Dutch Intelligence who copied the contents of his computer and compelled him to sign a five page report on what they found?

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

What indeed? From what I heard on the radio this morning he is apparently complaining that the police investigation is hampering his attempts to rescue his brother. Very interesting. I've also found it strange that the two Americans were executed (I use the term loosely because I honestly would prefer to use "murdered") almost immediately and yet no further action seems to have been taken against Ken Bigley.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

It was announced by the BBC this evening that Ken Bigley was executed in Latifiah in Iraq yesterday afternoon.

I am sure that all our sympathy and prayers are with his family on this terrible evening.

For his murderers I have nothing but absolute contempt. I scorn their aims and objectives. They are without honour. They are not men. They are cowards and fools.
They are despicable, revolting, disgusting and lower than animals.

I, for one, will hear no attempt to excuse nor explain their actions, and anyone who attempts such, I will tar with the same brush!

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

im with you bob, ive no words to express how i feel !

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Terrible news. It chills me to the bone when I think about the manner in whihc he was murdered - yes..murdered not executed.

Full marks must go to the Spanish and Italian governments for giving in to terrorists and showing them the green light as their actions have put every innocent person under threat. It goes to show how beyond reach these disgusting people are when they ignore pleas from those who share their faith - albeit a shared faith in name only as what these scum-stricken pieces of grief claim to do in the name of Allah has nothing to do with Islam.

I hope that people dont turn this whole sorry episode into a tool for scoring political points however - Blair and his Government did all they could to gain Mr.Bigleys release bar give in to the terrorists demands...a course of action that could never have been taken. I feel for the family of Mr.Bigley and may he be at peace now after his terrible ordeal, but I also feel for Blair and his government as they must feel an overpowering sense of guilt. However...there is no one responsible for Mr.Bigleys death apart from the satan-spawned filth who murdered him.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I agree with all here. My thoughts are with the Bigley Family.
One of the brothers pleaded with the press and media to give the family space. Lets hope they do and let them grieve (spelling) as they should be allowed to.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

What must that poor family be going through.
Words can't express my feelings.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

my heart goes out to the family

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

Yes you speak truth about this whole thing. It is murder and people who do it dont take no notice of anybody else. What they do this for is not a bargaining or hostage its just to get worlds attention and I said before just what you saying now. These people say they are Moslem but this is not Islam. Busman said Moslems have got to talk to them and tell them stop but I said they dont listen to leaders who will say that because they dont look to them leaders they lsiteniong to there own interpretation. This is proof and you can see it Ceejache with saying here like you do THIS IS NOT ISLAM. They think if they do it in the name of Allah that makes it Islam but no no very much no. I dont think Blair or any other can get to these kind. They dont want to talk. Its not about that.Leaders did all they could do but these who kidnapped and murder dont want talk. Now it is over for one more man who is next? They will do again. Dont tell me I have to stop it. How can anybody stop it? Maybe only Allah can stop it. I seen here Simon and Willow have Christian faith. My admiration goes to you for that.

This is a sad and bad thing. I cannot say any more.

Re: Execution in Iraq
 

I can't imagine what that family must have been going through these past 3 weeks and hoping against hope that they'd be able to secure his release.

To know what a horrendous death he suffered must be terrible. I don't know how the world can deal with these kidnappers but something must be done somehow.

I too hope the family can be left alone to grieve in peace. and my prayers are with them.