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jaysay 19-07-2011 10:16
One example of many within the NHS
 
NHS officials pay £32 for gluten-free bread that costs £2.25 | Mail Online

I know the cynics amongst you will say ah its the Daily Mail, but this is one hundred % true, and its not the only example of chronic waste in the NHS, paying 15 times the price of a supermarket, there is something not right here, cut out the waste and more money will be available for patient care, it ain't rocket science is it

Gobbiner17 19-07-2011 11:50
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Good example of why matrons and nurses will always do a better job than managers. Managers live in a different universe divorced from the practical realities of the daily grind, just like many politicians.

Tealeaf 19-07-2011 12:25
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
This is NHS Wales, which comes under the direct responsibility of the devolved Welsh assembly. It's just one more example of the waste incurred by our celtic friends as they liberally dispense english money.

I suggest we solve the problem by letting them have a couple of thousand saline drips, surplus to requirements from Stockport Hospital, charge 'em a hundred quid each and in a few years time there will be no buggar left in Wales and nowt for us to worry about.

Margaret Pilkington 19-07-2011 13:23
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobbiner17 (Post 920049)
Good example of why matrons and nurses will always do a better job than managers. Managers live in a different universe divorced from the practical realities of the daily grind, just like many politicians.
I'm not sure that is exactly true.
Nurses go into nursing to nurse patients.

If they are managing budgets, then this takes them away from their primary role....of nursing patients.
How do I know this...well, because I went into nursing to look after people.....I gained experience and with this, came promotion.....I was moved further away from the actual caring role....the more promotion I got the further away this would take me from caring....and from using my experience, and from passing on this experience to nursing staff who needed and wanted supervision.

I was not trained in management skills until the very end of my career.

What was my influence on the management of budgets? Very little.
Purchasing decisions were made on behalf ot the nurses and patients by someone else, the only input I had, was at a once a month meeting where products in use were discussed(The Product User Group forum).....and we were asked to give recommendations.......these recommendations were rarely followed on expense, but would be followed if we criticised the safety.

I could have been far better employed in being on my ward, carrying out nursing duties.

I have been out of the NHS for 9 years now(after 30 years of service)....I can't imagine that things have changed very much....except that nurses seem to be thinner on the ground.

Margaret Pilkington 19-07-2011 13:27
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 920057)

I suggest we solve the problem by letting them have a couple of thousand saline drips, surplus to requirements from Stockport Hospital, charge 'em a hundred quid each and in a few years time there will be no buggar left in Wales and nowt for us to worry about.

This is a very insensitive post, taking into account the seriousness of the current situation in Stockport.

Have you no thought for those who have been affected by this situation?

Obviously not!

Gobbiner17 19-07-2011 15:22
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920061)
I'm not sure that is exactly true.
Nurses go into nursing to nurse patients.
Fair enough, I was thinking more of the matron/nurse system which older nurses seem to all say was a much better than the system they have now. The matron worked her way up so knew all the ins and outs. I don't know how much they had to do with purchases but if the price of bread or the general costs of what patients needed were restricting the amounts or availability, then the matron would know about it and act effectively before it got out of hand. At least, that's what I've been led to believe.

Retlaw 19-07-2011 15:28
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Surely those who make these ridiculous purchases must know the price of bread & other consumables from when they do their own shopping, or are they so high & mighty others do the shopping for them, and they think thats the right price for bread.
Retlaw

Margaret Pilkington 19-07-2011 15:43
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Foodstuffs would be the domain of the catering Dept.
When people think of Matrons, they think of the days beforethe Salmon re-organisation...when one matron ruled the whole hospital...the current system of matrons is vastly different........and I think these senior nurses were just given the title of matron because the general public saw the Matron as being in sole charge......it was just a Google Page Ranking exercise.They were called nursing officers before this.

Lolly 19-07-2011 20:59
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
I've been on placement on my ward for nearly 3 month now..... never seen the matron, never heard anyone mention her. We had a problem one Sunday we were informed that she wasn't available the clinical director came in from home instead.

Gobbiner17 19-07-2011 21:27
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
It's the old matrons I was thinking about, just a few for the whole hospital. That was when the NHS was admired all over the world.

Margaret Pilkington 20-07-2011 05:56
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobbiner17 (Post 920157)
It's the old matrons I was thinking about, just a few for the whole hospital. That was when the NHS was admired all over the world.

The time you are talking about was in the 60's(and before) and there was only one Matron per hospital.....the one at QPH had a little Scottie dog which she would take on the ward rounds with her........if you were summoned to see Matron it was for something pretty serious.

Barrie Yates 21-07-2011 16:19
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 920043)
NHS officials pay £32 for gluten-free bread that costs £2.25 | Mail Online

I know the cynics amongst you will say ah its the Daily Mail, but this is one hundred % true, and its not the only example of chronic waste in the NHS, paying 15 times the price of a supermarket, there is something not right here, cut out the waste and more money will be available for patient care, it ain't rocket science is it
Not only that Jay but when bread is ordered they provide 8 loaves at a time. When queried we were told to get a larger freezer.
A month or so back Tesco were stocking Warburton's gluten free - that was around £2 a loaf and far better that the NHS supplied ones but we were told there was only one supplier to the NHS:confused:

MargaretR 21-07-2011 16:33
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
My cousin in Wales is coeliac and she told me that you have the option of bread or flour on prescription.

A bread machine sounds a better option than 'a bigger freezer'.

I was on a low carb diet last autumn and didn't eat any bread for 3 months.
I didn't feel deprived. Most commercial white bread has a low nutritional value.
When you make your own you can add extras (eg eggs and ground nuts) to make it worth eating.

jaysay 21-07-2011 17:49
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 920518)
Not only that Jay but when bread is ordered they provide 8 loaves at a time. When queried we were told to get a larger freezer.
A month or so back Tesco were stocking Warburton's gluten free - that was around £2 a loaf and far better that the NHS supplied ones but we were told there was only one supplier to the NHS:confused:
Don't think that's right Barry, I know the bread Joan gets on script is by a firm called Juvella, but she has had others, but Juvella is by fare the best. as for the 8 loaves at a time it seems strange, 8 loaves is the monthly limit, can little pom not arrange with her doc to get a script for 4 every two weeks as opposed to just one monthly for eight, just a thought

jaysay 21-07-2011 17:55
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920521)
My cousin in Wales is coeliac and she told me that you have the option of bread or flour on prescription.

A bread machine sounds a better option than 'a bigger freezer'.

I was on a low carb diet last autumn and didn't eat any bread for 3 months.
I didn't feel deprived. Most commercial white bread has a low nutritional value.
When you make your own you can add extras (eg eggs and ground nuts) to make it worth eating.
There is a points system Margaret, Joan gets both bread and flour on script, plus some pasta, pizza bases, and biscuits, each item has a points allocation, she doesn't bother with biscuits because they're awful.

Eric 22-07-2011 00:17
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobbiner17 (Post 920157)
It's the old matrons I was thinking about, just a few for the whole hospital. That was when the NHS was admired all over the world.

Kinda like Hattie Jacques, eh:D

Margaret Pilkington 22-07-2011 06:35
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
No Eric, much more formidable that Hattie.

While I don't remember the Matrons, my colleague who is the same age entered nursing straight from school.......was a cadet, before going on to do her training.......she remembers Matron vividly, after being sent to report to her for breaking a thermometer.
She had to pay for the thermometer....the princely sum of one shilling!

Barrie Yates 22-07-2011 13:32
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 920535)
Don't think that's right Barry, I know the bread Joan gets on script is by a firm called Juvella, but she has had others, but Juvella is by fare the best. as for the 8 loaves at a time it seems strange, 8 loaves is the monthly limit, can little pom not arrange with her doc to get a script for 4 every two weeks as opposed to just one monthly for eight, just a thought
Tried that Jay, maybe something can be done when we get with the new doctor - we went into Morrisons in Blackburn today, Warburtons is £2.49 but quality much better that the Juvella.

MargaretR 22-07-2011 14:07
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
It seems that costs of gluten free prescriptions (as per opening post) was incorrect.
Welsh Government denies Tory claim of £20 NHS loaf | Healthcare Network | Guardian Professional

"However, the Welsh Government responded with a statement which says that Millar is making an inaccurate claim because it regarded "each item" as a prescription and not a loaf. It said the actual cost of a single loaf of gluten-free bread is about £2.82."

"The Welsh Government also confirmed that it issues gluten free madeira cake on NHS prescription at a cost of £2.82 per cake."

'Let them eat cake':rolleyes: - it's the same price!:eek:

I do not regard bread and cake as essential for a healthy diet.
So I see no reason for it to be provided on prescription(free).

If you really want it, you can make your own.
Doves Farm Gluten Free White Bread Flour (1Kg) in Tesco | mySupermarket

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 16:11
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920627)
I do not regard bread and cake as essential for a healthy diet. So I see no reason for it to be provided on prescription(free).
Bit harsh that isn't it ? It may not be essential,(in your opinion) but why should some folk be denied something because of an ailment which is not of their making. Especially when you consider money being given out hand over fist for other (in my opinion) less deserving cases such as Junkies getting Drug substitutes ? They brought their problems on through their own actions, bet their "Daily bread" cost a tad more than 2.98.

MargaretR 22-07-2011 16:22
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
By that misguided logic, persons with peanut allergy should be provided with free alternatives (eg. cashew, almond nut butters) so they need not feel 'deprived'.:rolleyes:

If you consider bread to be the 'staff of life' then pay for it, and don't expect the NHS to subsidise your diet.

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 17:16
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Eh, sorry you've lost me there MargR, can't follow your connection with nuts in comparison with gluten intolerance. You even mentioned you have a cousin with the same condition, so you'd be all for them being denied it too ?

It's not that I consider bread to be "the staff of life" & I couldn't do without it for a while (believe me I have done). It's more to do with what the NHS considers in the patients interest & after all most folk have paid into the system for many a year, so why shouldn't they get a modicum of return ? That's the whole reason of paying your dues isn't it ? :)

jaysay 22-07-2011 17:46
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920639)
By that misguided logic, persons with peanut allergy should be provided with free alternatives (eg. cashew, almond nut butters) so they need not feel 'deprived'.:rolleyes:

If you consider bread to be the 'staff of life' then pay for it, and don't expect the NHS to subsidise your diet.
Some times you do amaze me, never have I heard so much narrow minded sanctimonious drivel in my life, if bloody alcoholics can get a day allowance for booze and drug addicts get methadone, for self inflicted disorders, why shouldn't people with a complaint, they have no control over, not get a subsidy, one of these days something like this may come and bite you on the backside, please don't moan when it does, always remember there but for the grace of god go I:mad:

MargaretR 22-07-2011 18:16
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
I have done some websearching re coeliac disease and on several sites it is stated that it affects one in ten of the population, most are undiagnosed.

Hyndburn's population is 81496 - so there are 8,149 residents who potentially qualify for a free (or heavily subsidised) weekly ration of bread, cake and biscuits.
Maybe chemists should expand their premises to accommodate the bread queues which will result.:rolleyes:
The potential for bankrupting the NHS is there, is it not?

Coeliac disease is an immune system disorder, but it is not the only such disorder, other food allergies are not given the same special treatment.
A person with any immune disorder adapts their lifestyle to avoid whatever triggers symptoms = sensible action.

Maybe the alcoholics are saying amongst themselves 'It's Ok to get alcohol subsidy because the coeliacs get their bread subsidy.' - I suggest that unsubsidised abstinence by both groups would be a cure.

My cousin was disappointed with the gluten free bread, and the loaves she made herself, so opted not to eat it = sensible action.

If a coeliac considers that the need to eat bread cake and biscuits is essential to survival, then they should not expect to be fed free by taxpayers.

I have reactions to many items sold in supermarkets, and have to source alternatives at my own expense. I do not expect the NHS to provide them.

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 18:44
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
To use your own turn of phrase;

Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920639)
By that misguided logic


Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920662)

The potential for bankrupting the NHS is there, is it not?

If a coeliac considers that the need to eat bread cake and biscuits is essential to survival, then they should not expect to be fed free by taxpayers.

I have reactions to many items sold in supermarkets, and have to source alternatives at my own expense. I do not expect the NHS to provide them.
Yes it is, but the same can be said about any form of practice authorised through the NHS. What is at issue here is what is deemed as treatment & prevention hence the "Prescription" your various ills if so classified by the NHS would also be treated due to your entitlement.

As to being fed by the taxpayer aren't those in receipt not also at present or in the past taxpayers, so in the end they are paying for it themselves.

steeljack 22-07-2011 18:45
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Think half of these "new" diseases/ailments are invented by the Medical profession to justify their existance , everyone is now a "victim" even the obese , if your fat STOP sodding eating. Does anyone accept any personal responsibility for anything anymore

agree with MargaretR

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 19:02
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 920672)
Does anyone accept any personal responsibility for anything anymore
No I don't think as many do as used to. But there you go, successive Governments taking away responsibilities thereby forming a dependency culture where it's always someone else's fault.

But the issue is that of prevention rather than cure. I have no time for & agree totally that for those whose illnesses are brought about by their own stupidity & lack of self control should be left sort themselves out, whereas those whose condition is not of their own making & beyond their control should be supported.

jaysay 22-07-2011 19:06
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 920672)
Think half of these "new" diseases/ailments are invented by the Medical profession to justify their existance , everyone is now a "victim" even the obese , if your fat STOP sodding eating. Does anyone accept any personal responsibility for anything anymore

agree with MargaretR
Your as nutty as she is then SJ, unfortunately you can't legislate for your health, Margaret is so bloody simplistic in her attitude to anybody who doesn't conform to her way of life. It was once suggested that I should pay for my own oxygen, wonderful. Not everybody can abandon conventional medicine, in a lot of cases because they can't afford to, and can't site about all day surfing the internet for medical solutions. I once tried a natural treatment for psoriasis, which was recommended on here,(and wasn't cheap either) unfortunately I was allergic to it, so not all these so call "natural" remedies work, and people who usually need them most can afford to find out.

MargaretR 22-07-2011 19:14
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Coeliac disease is when gluten causes damage to the intestines.
I happen to have intestines damaged by C-Difficile (was hospitalised in 1980) which resulted from prescription of a (now banned) antibiotic.

Because of decades of frequent diarrheoa I once paid for my own coeliac test
Biotech Biocard Celiac Test - Boots
..which showed negative.

I have learned what not to eat, and take vit/mineral supplements to compensate for my intestines' low capacity to absorb nutrients from food.

I do not expect the NHS to subsidise my food - even though I have this condition due to medical negligence.

PS I have never suggested that you pay for your own oxygen. I did note that you blame your poor health on decades of smoking.

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 19:24
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920678)
I do not expect the NHS to subsidise my food - even though I have this condition due to medical negligence.
How can it be subsidising if it's a prescription ! As to Medical negligence it's a completely different issue.

MargaretR 22-07-2011 19:27
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 920681)
How can it be subsidising if it's a prescription ! As to Medical negligence it's a completely different issue.
When you can get 8 loaves on prescription what do you call it - charity?

steeljack 22-07-2011 19:27
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
My thinking is that if the HHS was serious about saving money they could start by making all patients including kids (regardless of circumstance) make a nomimnal co-payment of £10 for each appointment , soon clear out the malingerers ;)

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 19:45
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920683)
When you can get 8 loaves on prescription what do you call it - charity?
Hardly, that's just one person & one instance, the decision apparently is up to the patients GP following guidelines set out for such cases, horses for courses & suchlike.

Prescriptions | Coeliac UK

MargaretR 22-07-2011 19:51
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 920687)
Hardly, that's just one person & one instance, the decision apparently is up to the patients GP following guidelines set out for such cases, horses for courses & suchlike.

Prescriptions | Coeliac UK
A prescription for -
"breads, rolls, pastas, flour and bread mixes, pizza bases and crackers. ...Sweet biscuits and cake mixes are being restricted in some areas."
..can hardly be described as medicine can it?:rolleyes:

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 20:09
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920688)
..can hardly be described as medicine can it?:rolleyes:
Mere semantics Marg, at no point was it said they were medicines, the word being used is prescription. ;) Just that, prescription, the fact that it's in conjunction with the NHS the presumption is that the talk must be about medicine. :)

MargaretR 22-07-2011 20:13
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinGermany (Post 920692)
Mere semantics Marg, at no point was it said they were medicines, the word being used is prescription. ;) Just that, prescription, the fact that it's in conjunction with the NHS the presumption is that the talk must be about medicine. :)
Advice only needed - "Don't eat food containing gluten"

....that must be easier than telling an alky not to drink.
Gluten is not addictive

Margaret Pilkington 22-07-2011 20:23
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 920672)
Think half of these "new" diseases/ailments are invented by the Medical profession to justify their existance , everyone is now a "victim" even the obese , if your fat STOP sodding eating. Does anyone accept any personal responsibility for anything anymore

agree with MargaretR
Coeliac is not a new disorder.......it has been present in the population for a long time, but for many years it was not accurately diagnosed.
Children were frequently admitted to paediatric wards in a malnourished state......despite the fact that their parents said they had healthy appetities.
They were labelled Failure to Thrive(FTT) and then diagnosis became possible by taking a small biopsy from the gut.....this showed that the children had a metabolic disorder....they could not digest the gluten in wheat.

While I can understand Margaret's viewpoint, I do not subscribe to it.

Being able to have bread in their diet makes children feel more 'normal'...even though that bread is special......and to expect parents to fund this special dietary requirement out of their own pockets may place a financial burden on them that would be unacceptable.

As for making the bread yourself........well for some people that is an option, but for others, it wouldn't be practical.

You also need to realise that when coeliac is talked about, it is more than bread and cakes and biscuits that have to be avoided....anything that uses wheat flour as a 'thickener' is also forbidden. If you have a family member with a food allergy, you have to walk the minefield that is food labelling.

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 20:25
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920693)
Advice only needed - "Don't eat food containing gluten"
Easier said than done, how many people really know what they're getting served up to them despite specifying certain dietary needs especially if they're eating away from home ? Not many I'd think.

Point in case Marg P's comments above. :)

Margaret Pilkington 22-07-2011 20:30
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
I think you are right there Dave........Hospital kitchens understand the needs of coeliacs, but commercial catering establishments frequently do not.
Some people who are intolerant of gluten are also Lactose intolerant too.

I nursed quite a few patients who were both.

MargaretR 22-07-2011 20:31
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Diabetics have to learn about diet in order to survive/thrive... are you suggesting that Coeliacs aren't capable of managing their condition in the same way?

Margaret Pilkington 22-07-2011 20:43
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
No I don't think that Coeliacs are not capable of managing their diet.......but if they get foodstuffs on prescription, they will have to pay the required prescription charges unless they are over 60 or are a child.....and these days the precription charges aren't cheap.

It is possible that buying the gluten free bread from the supermarket is cheaper than getting prescriptions....because I am sure that most coeliacs restrict the amount of bread they eat.
I have a friend who is coeliac and she only has bread as toast in a morning.

DaveinGermany 22-07-2011 20:56
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920662)
it is stated that it affects one in ten of the population, most are undiagnosed.
As you pointed out some are blissfully unaware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920700)
Diabetics have to learn about diet in order to survive/thrive... are you suggesting that Coeliacs aren't capable of managing their condition in the same way?
Far from it, those aware of their situation can take steps & no doubt do so, but they can't cover for circumstances beyond their control which will always be a risk factor.

MargaretR 22-07-2011 21:07
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Food labelling is so strictly regulated that everyone who can read is in control of what passes their lips. Only children and illiterates need assistance and guidance.

The likelihood is that some people don't care what they eat as long as they ease hunger.
You eat to nourish your body - much of the processed food eaten doesn't do that.

cashman 22-07-2011 21:23
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920711)
Food labelling is so strictly regulated that everyone who can read is in control of what passes their lips. Only children and illiterates need assistance and guidance.

The likelihood is that some people don't care what they eat as long as they ease hunger.
You eat to nourish your body - much of the processed food eaten doesn't do that.
What a load of crap, what yer saying is those folk should "Never" eat out, cos wi best will in world cafes/restaurants, etc would have no idea,if certain foods are gluten free,:( think yer being very peevish on this issue.

MargaretR 22-07-2011 21:37
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Gluten free restaurants and pubs, gluten free hotels and accommodation, gluten free cafes and coffee shops, gluten free takeaways and fastfood
Eating out needs more care but isn't impossible.
I searched this site and found one listed in each category in Blackburn - none in Accrington.

I have eaten out with my coeliac cousin in Wales and when on holiday with her in La Palma.
She needed to ask the waiter about ingredients and select her dishes accordingly.

eg. I have never seen a salad with gluten - just have an oil dressing - no mayonnaise

cashman 22-07-2011 21:41
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
well folk like you n i must be very lucky,having computers n ability to look after ourselves, how many aint? i'm sticking wi me comment.

MargaretR 22-07-2011 21:51
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Butty shops and pie shops are a 'no no':D
Maybe that's why Accrington doesn't feature on that site.

PS look what I've found !!!! :D
http://www.jdwetherspoon.co.uk/home/...y-requirements

Mancie 22-07-2011 22:08
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steeljack (Post 920684)
My thinking is that if the HHS was serious about saving money they could start by making all patients including kids (regardless of circumstance) make a nomimnal co-payment of £10 for each appointment , soon clear out the malingerers ;)
Hang on there Steeljack.. the vast majority of people in this country are now or in the past paying into the NHS .. and I'd say the majority don't want the NHS turned into the sort of system you have in the USA..a system were the more you earn the more you can afford on health insurance and better medical care...it is an option in this country but in my opinion not progress..so no thanks.. we got rid of that long ago.

Neil 22-07-2011 22:11
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
I don't agree with food on prescription either.

Mancie 22-07-2011 22:29
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
I was once prescribed bananas when in hospital because of potassium but just treated it as a joke..if I need a banana I'll buy one or two... I can see how this could be important when in care or hospital but if I was told I shoud not eat bread I would stop eating it.. would not expect the NHS to supply me with overpriced bread for my breakfast.!

jaysay 23-07-2011 08:42
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920688)
A prescription for -
"breads, rolls, pastas, flour and bread mixes, pizza bases and crackers. ...Sweet biscuits and cake mixes are being restricted in some areas."
..can hardly be described as medicine can it?:rolleyes:
Neither can free alcohol or Methadone either:mad:

jaysay 23-07-2011 08:50
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920694)
Coeliac is not a new disorder.......it has been present in the population for a long time, but for many years it was not accurately diagnosed.
Children were frequently admitted to paediatric wards in a malnourished state......despite the fact that their parents said they had healthy appetities.
They were labelled Failure to Thrive(FTT) and then diagnosis became possible by taking a small biopsy from the gut.....this showed that the children had a metabolic disorder....they could not digest the gluten in wheat.

While I can understand Margaret's viewpoint, I do not subscribe to it.

Being able to have bread in their diet makes children feel more 'normal'...even though that bread is special......and to expect parents to fund this special dietary requirement out of their own pockets may place a financial burden on them that would be unacceptable.

As for making the bread yourself........well for some people that is an option, but for others, it wouldn't be practical.

You also need to realise that when coeliac is talked about, it is more than bread and cakes and biscuits that have to be avoided....anything that uses wheat flour as a 'thickener' is also forbidden. If you have a family member with a food allergy, you have to walk the minefield that is food labelling.
At last one Margaret who actually knows what she's talking about sheds light on just what it means to be gluten intolerance. Not to mention that you need a separate toaster and separate butter dish, just miner points, beer is also out as are lots of things which you wouldn't think would be affected, say some chocolates in a box which are okay and others which are not, the best advise is to avoid the lot.

jaysay 23-07-2011 08:53
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920700)
Diabetics have to learn about diet in order to survive/thrive... are you suggesting that Coeliacs aren't capable of managing their condition in the same way?
Again your talking nonsense, two entirely different conditions and its crass to compare the two

jaysay 23-07-2011 09:00
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920717)
Gluten free restaurants and pubs, gluten free hotels and accommodation, gluten free cafes and coffee shops, gluten free takeaways and fastfood
Eating out needs more care but isn't impossible.
I searched this site and found one listed in each category in Blackburn - none in Accrington.

I have eaten out with my coeliac cousin in Wales and when on holiday with her in La Palma.
She needed to ask the waiter about ingredients and select her dishes accordingly.

eg. I have never seen a salad with gluten - just have an oil dressing - no mayonnaise
Have you ever tried eating at one of these "gluten free" establishments, its quite easy sitting in front of a computer and putting in links, but things are different in real life, believe me

jaysay 23-07-2011 09:06
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 920724)
I don't agree with food on prescription either.
You may just change your mind if you found out you had the disorder, its not just a matter of giving up bread, the problem is people don't know how much this actually affects a hell of a lot of things, especially when young kids are involved, how do you tell a child they can't have a biscuit when there siblings are munching away on a penguin

cmonstanley 23-07-2011 09:11
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
i still think the great still outweighs the bad in the nhs;) and for paying £10 for an appointment, yes the american health system is the polar opposite of the great british nhs which doesnt discrminate if your poor or rich and lets the deprived and poor to rot and die.the america we dont see on mainstream television .

jaysay 23-07-2011 09:19
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Good point cmon, the first question they ask you in an American hospital is "whats your credit card number":rolleyes:

MargaretR 23-07-2011 09:34
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 920767)
Have you ever tried eating at one of these "gluten free" establishments, its quite easy sitting in front of a computer and putting in links, but things are different in real life, believe me
Wetherspoons provides gluten free dishes - maybe you missed that a few posts back.

I have dined at -
Wetherspoons Newquay - reasonably tasty but not memorable.
Wetherspoons Morecambe - that was a disappointment - peas like cold bullets.

I am not ruling out the likelihood that I may well visit a Wetherspoons again. Serving the same food nationwide can vary according to how it is cooked locally.

jaysay 23-07-2011 10:12
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargaretR (Post 920773)
Wetherspoons provides gluten free dishes - maybe you missed that a few posts back.

I have dined at -
Wetherspoons Newquay - reasonably tasty but not memorable.
Wetherspoons Morecambe - that was a disappointment - peas like cold bullets.

I am not ruling out the likelihood that I may well visit a Wetherspoons again. Serving the same food nationwide can vary according to how it is cooked locally.
That wasn't the point I was making Margaret, they may say they are gluten free but are they, its all down to the prep and people do that, if we get people who are supposed to nurse the sick are accused of killing them whats the chance of every employee at an eatery sticking to the correct procedures,

Nearly 20 years ago, when Joan was first diagnosed, we went on holiday to Torquay, but we stopped overnight in a hotel near Truro, we first checked if they catered for gluten free, which they did. When we arrived Joan mentioned about the gluten free meal, and the chef actually came out to see her. when we went into the dinning room the Italian matradee showed us the the table, the waitress took our order, Joan was having soup, as the waitress came out of the kitchen the matradee actually picked up some croutons and put them in both bowls of soup, doh, He wasn't amused when Joan told him it was no use fishing them out with a spoon and wanted a fresh dish:rolleyes:

I think if I remember rightly Barry Yates said on here that he and little pom had had a meal in Accy somewhere and her meal was supposedly gluten free, but she was ill afterwards, I'm sure he will confirm this if he sees this post.

So you see because an establishment says its provides gluten free food, doesn't always mean that it does, mainly because of human error

lancsdave 23-07-2011 12:55
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Another example of the wasting money in the NHS. They should clamp down on pathetic scum who don't need prescriptions but still continue to get them ( or should it be the doctors who need striking off for keep writing them out )

This morning I witnessed one of Accringtons many town centre low lifes come out of Lloyds chemists with 2 bags of what I assume were prescribed 'necessities' and walk to some other low life waiting at the corner of the market. The waiting low life handed over a sum of cash and the other one handed over his goods. 10.30am at one of the busiest points in the town centre :mad::mad::mad:

jaysay 23-07-2011 13:42
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancsdave (Post 920785)
Another example of the wasting money in the NHS. They should clamp down on pathetic scum who don't need prescriptions but still continue to get them ( or should it be the doctors who need striking off for keep writing them out )

This morning I witnessed one of Accringtons many town centre low lifes come out of Lloyds chemists with 2 bags of what I assume were prescribed 'necessities' and walk to some other low life waiting at the corner of the market. The waiting low life handed over a sum of cash and the other one handed over his goods. 10.30am at one of the busiest points in the town centre :mad::mad::mad:
There's a lot to be said for overhauling the repeat prescription system, there are a lot of people ( those exempt from paying) send in a repeat prescription every month and tick every item on the list whether they need them or not, its ridiculous. I have a monthly repeat and before mine goes in I check to see what I actually need, why have a cupboard full of medicines you don't require. The thing is once they're issued they can't be sent back, a thing we have discussed on here before

Margaret Pilkington 23-07-2011 13:48
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 920778)
That wasn't the point I was making Margaret, they may say they are gluten free but are they, its all down to the prep and people do that, if we get people who are supposed to nurse the sick are accused of killing them whats the chance of every employee at an eatery sticking to the correct procedures,

Nearly 20 years ago, when Joan was first diagnosed, we went on holiday to Torquay, but we stopped overnight in a hotel near Truro, we first checked if they catered for gluten free, which they did. When we arrived Joan mentioned about the gluten free meal, and the chef actually came out to see her. when we went into the dinning room the Italian matradee showed us the the table, the waitress took our order, Joan was having soup, as the waitress came out of the kitchen the matradee actually picked up some croutons and put them in both bowls of soup, doh, He wasn't amused when Joan told him it was no use fishing them out with a spoon and wanted a fresh dish:rolleyes:

I think if I remember rightly Barry Yates said on here that he and little pom had had a meal in Accy somewhere and her meal was supposedly gluten free, but she was ill afterwards, I'm sure he will confirm this if he sees this post.

So you see because an establishment says its provides gluten free food, doesn't always mean that it does, mainly because of human error

John you are quite right about the prep.
Gluten free meals need to be prepared in an area where wheat containing foods have not been prepared....some coeliacs are so senstivie that even food prepared in an environment where a sandwich has been prepared can affect them very badly.....and this is something that Kitchen staff sometimes do not appreciate.

Retlaw 23-07-2011 14:04
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920790)
John you are quite right about the prep.
Gluten free meals need to be prepared in an area where wheat containing foods have not been prepared....some coeliacs are so senstivie that even food prepared in an environment where a sandwich has been prepared can affect them very badly.....and this is something that Kitchen staff sometimes do not appreciate.
Reading all this about gluten free bread, I don't think there is an eatery in the country that could afford the expense of a separate area, and a chef, just in case someone comes in who is allergic to flour based products.
Retlaw.

jaysay 23-07-2011 14:07
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920790)
John you are quite right about the prep.
Gluten free meals need to be prepared in an area where wheat containing foods have not been prepared....some coeliacs are so senstivie that even food prepared in an environment where a sandwich has been prepared can affect them very badly.....and this is something that Kitchen staff sometimes do not appreciate.
Joan is one such person Margaret, thats how I know

jaysay 23-07-2011 14:12
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 920792)
Reading all this about gluten free bread, I don't think there is an eatery in the country that could afford the expense of a separate area, and a chef, just in case someone comes in who is allergic to flour based products.
Retlaw.
They do manage it Retlaw, probably now more so than in the past, especially if they actually advertise the fact, 20 years ago only certain places catered for coeliac, now its more wide spread

Margaret Pilkington 23-07-2011 14:23
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
The thing is Retlaw, if you make an eating establishment aware of your special needs and they say they can fulfil them, then if you suffer as a result of their failure to adequately do so, you could take legal action against them.
My nephew is severely allergic to Peanuts....he went to a chistmas party where they played cards and one of the boys had been eating peanuts before the game.....my nephew touched the cards handled by this boy, and ended up on a ventilator in ICU.
He is also allergic to milk and milk products....his reaction when he comes into contact with these is an anaphylactic shock....he carries and adrenaline pen everywhere he goes.

jaysay 23-07-2011 14:50
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920797)
The thing is Retlaw, if you make an eating establishment aware of your special needs and they say they can fulfil them, then if you suffer as a result of their failure to adequately do so, you could take legal action against them.
My nephew is severely allergic to Peanuts....he went to a chistmas party where they played cards and one of the boys had been eating peanuts before the game.....my nephew touched the cards handled by this boy, and ended up on a ventilator in ICU.
He is also allergic to milk and milk products....his reaction when he comes into contact with these is an anaphylactic shock....he carries and adrenaline pen everywhere he goes.
Things like allergies Margaret never seem to bother people who don't suffer from them, funny that ain't it:rolleyes:

Barrie Yates 23-07-2011 15:19
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay

I think if I remember rightly Barry Yates said on here that he and little pom had had a meal in Accy somewhere and her meal was supposedly gluten free, but she was ill afterwards, I'm sure he will confirm this if he sees this post.

So you see because an establishment says its provides gluten free food, doesn't always mean that it does, mainly because of human error
Spot on Jay, it was an omelet, served upstairs in the Market Hall. I very carefully explained the need for it to be untainted by bread or other gluten food. When it arrived it looked like no omelet I have ever seen and had probably been a couple of eggs stirred around in a frying pan. The ensuing results were pretty bad and we could only assume that the pan had been used to do fried bread.
However, there are quite a number of local eating establishments that are fully aware of the requirements for a gluten free dish, serving and kitchen staff are obviously well trained in those places - went to one last night, the Grey Mare - the waitress was quite knowledgeable, so no problems.

An earlier posting compared diabetics to coeliacs - sorry but that is like comparing apples and strawberries. If you took the time to compare the relevant prices in Asda/Tesco/Morrison's between ordinary foods and gluten free foods you may be in a position to comment.

Is it alright to provide drugs or alcohol to people who have self inflicted themselves with the problem. If it is then what is wrong with providing the basic staple foods to people who have a condition that is no fault of theirs.

If you have no knowledge or experience of the subject then I suggest that you refrain from commenting on the subject.

jaysay 24-07-2011 09:46
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 920810)
Spot on Jay, it was an omelet, served upstairs in the Market Hall. I very carefully explained the need for it to be untainted by bread or other gluten food. When it arrived it looked like no omelet I have ever seen and had probably been a couple of eggs stirred around in a frying pan. The ensuing results were pretty bad and we could only assume that the pan had been used to do fried bread.
However, there are quite a number of local eating establishments that are fully aware of the requirements for a gluten free dish, serving and kitchen staff are obviously well trained in those places - went to one last night, the Grey Mare - the waitress was quite knowledgeable, so no problems.

An earlier posting compared diabetics to coeliacs - sorry but that is like comparing apples and strawberries. If you took the time to compare the relevant prices in Asda/Tesco/Morrison's between ordinary foods and gluten free foods you may be in a position to comment.

Is it alright to provide drugs or alcohol to people who have self inflicted themselves with the problem. If it is then what is wrong with providing the basic staple foods to people who have a condition that is no fault of theirs.

If you have no knowledge or experience of the subject then I suggest that you refrain from commenting on the subject.
Certainly like your last comment Barry, but there again there are those who think they are experts on everything just because they can use a browser, there is no substitute for personal experience

Margaret Pilkington 24-07-2011 10:13
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 920724)
I don't agree with food on prescription either.
What is your stance on those who require PEG Feeds? That is also prescribed food......and what about the nourishment drinks provided(on prescription) to Cancer sufferers, who become malnourished because of a sore mouth due to chemo....or who just can't face solid food.......should they too be paying for their food.
What about hospital in patients too....should a fee be levied because thay are eating whilst in hospital(after all they would be buying this food at home....so aren't they getting something for nothing?).
Neil, I am not having a go at you, I'm not being facetious or nasty........I am just putting these points to you, to ask where do we draw the line?

I know life is not impossible without the staple foods that wheat provides, but it is a lot less pleasant and harder to manage.

Why don't you try a month of no wheat products and see how hard it is.....no pasta(pasta is healthy isn't it - yes unless you are coeliac) no bread, no cake, no biscuits, no food that contains wheat based thickeners...so any casseroles stews would be runny and thin(unless you used potato starch) and look unappetizing......and as for desserts well, your choice would be strictly limited.

I do not begrudge coeliacs getting whatever help they can, to improve their lives....their condition is lifelong, it is not self induced.
I do however, begrudge the money given to alcoholics and drug addicts.....they get help with their conditions despite the fact that contributed to their ill health.

Barrie Yates 24-07-2011 13:04
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920944)
What is your stance on those who require PEG Feeds? That is also prescribed food......and what about the nourishment drinks provided(on prescription) to Cancer sufferers, who become malnourished because of a sore mouth due to chemo....or who just can't face solid food.......should they too be paying for their food.
What about hospital in patients too....should a fee be levied because thay are eating whilst in hospital(after all they would be buying this food at home....so aren't they getting something for nothing?).
Neil, I am not having a go at you, I'm not being facetious or nasty........I am just putting these points to you, to ask where do we draw the line?

I know life is not impossible without the staple foods that wheat provides, but it is a lot less pleasant and harder to manage.

Why don't you try a month of no wheat products and see how hard it is.....no pasta(pasta is healthy isn't it - yes unless you are coeliac) no bread, no cake, no biscuits, no food that contains wheat based thickeners...so any casseroles stews would be runny and thin(unless you used potato starch) and look unappetizing......and as for desserts well, your choice would be strictly limited.

I do not begrudge coeliacs getting whatever help they can, to improve their lives....their condition is lifelong, it is not self induced.
I do however, begrudge the money given to alcoholics and drug addicts.....they get help with their conditions despite the fact that contributed to their ill health.
Very nicely put Margaret - one does need to experience the results of a coeliac esating food containing gluten - even a breacrumb can trigger a serious reaction - I have never cleaned my teeth as often as I do now.;)

Margaret Pilkington 24-07-2011 14:43
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Thank you Barrie.
I don't think food allergies are taken very seriously by those who haven't experienced them at first hand(either themselves, or a close family member having one of these conditions)

When we went out to Australia in 1980, my nephew was a baby six months old or so......being fed solely on breast milk, but his mother started to wean him while we were visiting. She had no idea that he had any food allergies...he had thrived on breast milk , slept well and was a bouncing baby who looked brimful of health.
In the few short weeks that we were there, he was rushed to hospital countless times...blue lights flashing. All because his mum had given him some baby rice made up with cows milk....and it was months before they tracked down what was the problem.
By the time we went home the bouncing baby had become a fractious bag of bones......who cried all the time and was poorly most of the time.
I thought that he wouldn't survive.
All because he was allergic to cows milk...and later it was discovered he was severely allergic to nuts, especially peanuts.

Neil 24-07-2011 16:19
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920944)
What is your stance on those who require PEG Feeds?
In the words of a now famous quote "I have no knowledge of this" :D

So I googled it. I think the difference here is that you can buy gluten free bread and other foods in Tesco so why should they be given free when others cant get life saving medicines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920944)
...and what about the nourishment drinks provided(on prescription) to Cancer sufferers, who become malnourished because of a sore mouth due to chemo....or who just can't face solid food.......should they too be paying for their food.
That is life saving/preserving treatment so is different in my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920944)
Neil, I am not having a go at you, I'm not being facetious or nasty........I am just putting these points to you, to ask where do we draw the line?
I would not expect you to have a go Margaret.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920944)
I do not begrudge coeliacs getting whatever help they can, to improve their lives....their condition is lifelong, it is not self induced.
You mentioned peanut allergies in another post, do you think they should get prescribed nut free food or should they sort out their diet themselves


Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920944)
I do however, begrudge the money given to alcoholics and drug addicts.....they get help with their conditions despite the fact that contributed to their ill health.
I agree with you on this one. How many post have we had on here moaning (quite rightly usually) about the drunks/drug users hanging about on Abbey Street and around town being given free this and that. I wonder how many of those same people will be saying nice things about Amy Winehouse?

Margaret Pilkington 24-07-2011 17:19
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
The peanut allergy thing isn't really an issue....how many people do you know who can't live their lives without having a peanut....so No, I am not in favour of people with nut allergies getting food on prescription.

Coeliac disease is a bit different....and if the gluten free bread in Tesco(or any other retail outlet) was the same price as a Warbies toastie loaf then I would be saying exactly what you are saying, but it isn't....in some instances gluten free food is more than double the price of the ordinary product....so how about this for a compromise.......the coeliac sufferer pays for their bread what you and I pay for ours,
and the rest of the cost is taken care of by vouchers...issued on prescription.

I am not exactly sure how the prescription situation is for dietary products....but for medicines it is one medicine one prescrition charge(£7 something) so if you pay your prescription charge and get 4 loaves, the coeliac sufferers are paying much more for their dietary product than the rest of us pay for ordinary bread.....and only slightly less that it is to buy in Supermarkets.

I'm glad that you didn't think I was having a pop at you....and also that some of the other points you agreed with too.

Give the gluten free experiment a try. I am sure you will be glad to go back to normal food.

Neil 24-07-2011 18:51
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920980)
The peanut allergy thing isn't really an issue....how many people do you know who can't live their lives without having a peanut....so No, I am not in favour of people with nut allergies getting food on prescription.
Its not just about eating them though is it. As you said playing cards with someone who ate them can be deadly. Its about how the food is prepared.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 920980)
Coeliac disease is a bit different....and if the gluten free bread in Tesco(or any other retail outlet) was the same price as a Warbies toastie loaf then I would be saying exactly what you are saying, but it isn't....in some instances gluten free food is more than double the price of the ordinary product....so how about this for a compromise.......the coeliac sufferer pays for their bread what you and I pay for ours,
and the rest of the cost is taken care of by vouchers...issued on prescription.
Tesco gluten free bread is £2 (I just looked), Warbies is £1.35. Not a lot extra if you eat a couple of loaves a week. A lot better than what the NHS pay from an earlier post.

Margaret Pilkington 24-07-2011 19:38
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil (Post 921003)
Its not just about eating them though is it. As you said playing cards with someone who ate them can be deadly. Its about how the food is prepared.




Tesco gluten free bread is £2 (I just looked), Warbies is £1.35. Not a lot extra if you eat a couple of loaves a week. A lot better than what the NHS pay from an earlier post.
Some people will have allergies which are less severe than this.......all I can tell you is my nephew has a very serious allergy and just touching the cards dealt by this boy almost proved fatal to him. He now carries an adrenaline pen for emergency use.

And I take your point about the Tesco Gluten free bread, but if someone told you tomorrow that you were going to have to pay £2 for a loaf of bread would you be happy?(especially as you can see others paying almost a third less for their bread)........and as I have pointed out it isn't just bread. No pies, pastry, biscuits, pizza, pasta, ready made meals(oh you can have the chips but not the fish...unless the frier will do it batterless for you), no bought sandwich, no sausages.

Margaret Pilkington 24-07-2011 19:43
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
I eat one loaf per week, as you say it isn't much.
I pay 85 pence for my loaf of bread(aldi Farmhouse batch)...biggish slices, but I think that if you look the Gluten free loaves are much smaller in size than the Warbies bread that you have quoted....the last time I looked they were not 'sandwich sized' like the Warbies loaf.......saying that I don't know many coeliacs who would eat their gluten free bread as a basis for a sandwich...they mostly have it as toast.......I believe it isn't the most palatable thing in the world.

Margaret Pilkington 24-07-2011 19:48
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Yes, just checked the Gluten free bread is 400 grms......£2 = 50pence per 100grms
The Warbies Toastie, 800 grms £1.35 = 17 pence per 100grms........so you would be paying quite a lot more than a third(which is what I quoted on the basis of a like for like loaf) above the price of ordinary bread.(almost 3 times as much)

jaysay 25-07-2011 09:06
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
I have actually talked to Joan about this over the weekend, as for Bread, there are numerous different breads on the market (unlike 20 years ago) Warbies are trying there best to get on the list, but its the consensus that Juvella fresh baked is about the best, I've actually tried this its very much like ordinary thick sliced cottage loaf. I actually think that Joan is now very well clued up on the subject, I suppose she has to be as Secretary of the Manchester Branch of Coeliac UK. Only a fortnight ago she was speaking at a seminar at the Royal Preston Hospital, to medical clinicians of all levels from consultants to practice managers and nurses.

Barrie Yates 25-07-2011 21:12
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
We have found that the Warburton's Gluten Free is nicer tasting, not as solid and doesn't crumble as easilly as Juvella - that is £2.49 for a small loaf, much more expensive than a Warburton's Toastie when compared gram for gram.

jaysay 26-07-2011 09:11
Re: One example of many within the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Yates (Post 921194)
We have found that the Warburton's Gluten Free is nicer tasting, not as solid and doesn't crumble as easilly as Juvella - that is £2.49 for a small loaf, much more expensive than a Warburton's Toastie when compared gram for gram.
Just depends on which Juvella you have tried Barry, they do quite a few, they were the first firm to bring out fluffy white bread, which is the nearest I've seen to ordinary bread and I've seen quite a few over the last 20 years:D


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