Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

The next meeting of the full council is this Thursday at Accrington Town Hall at 7.00pm. As always, it is open to the public to come and watch from the gallery and a full list of agenda items can be found here:

Council

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Hyndburn Council Walkout - YouTube

This reminds me of when Googie Withers left the prison for the last time, in Within These Walls.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

So how long has filming been allowed at council meetings?

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Don't know, but it was the Observer who posted it on YouTube.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Presumably the same reporter who who doing the twitter updates.

I wonder if he'll be at the next meeting?

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Hyndburn - An Excellent Council...........

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

as far as im concerned thats rude ... if someone has been invited to speak at the meeting then they should have stayed ... even if they didnt agree with it .. its bad manners ... oh and if it had been the other way round ... and the labour councillors had walked out i would have said the same ...

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

The walkout was in response to a presentation by Brian Simpson MEP who had come to give a presentation on how European decisions affect things in Hyndburn. Given my comparative ignorance of how some things are connected I found it quite interesting and it is useful to get a glimpse of the bigger picture in order to help me be a better councillor. I doubt whether the same tactics would have been employed if a certain Mr Hargreaves had still been local MP and invited along to speak.

I'm disappointed with the Conservative group, shepherded once again into leaving the chamber by Cllr Britcliffe, as several questions were raised over the course of the evening that Mr Simpson was well placed to answer.

We should be encouraging links between district, county and parliamentary levels in order to enable a better flow of information but this seems to be at odds with what the local Conservatives want. Personally speaking, whatever colour flag our local government representatives are flying we should try as far as we can to hear each other out. I note with interest that the only person reported to have turned down an invite to speak at Full Council is Conservative County Council Leader Geoff Driver.

Greater transparency, anyone?

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

As far as I'm concerned they can film the whole thing, much as they do at several other local councils. I'm not sure how interested the local populace would be but at least it would be a true and uncontestable record of events in the council chamber. Current costings for webcasting stand at around £40,000 per year which is a sticking point.

The issue of podcasting as a cheaper alternative has been raised within the Labour group only this week.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

It's not often you get to see the back of your own head.....cheers, G!

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I think you would get more viewers if it was not live but available to view on the Council website. Would that be cheaper?

I keep saying I will come to one and would like to but we had a mad week with school hunting and Thursday was the first evening we could sit and do nothing.

As it happened I spent the evening killing zombies on a dead island, similar to a council meeting some would say.

Is podcasting just voice? I think thats a bad idea personally. I like to put faces to names.

For the £40k would it be live only or able to view whenever.

It would be nice if I could find minutes online of past meetings.
Are they all available and I am having trouble finding them?

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

A video camera with wide angle lens and mike would surely do? One which records in web format and placed on the Councils website?

My cheapish Sony camera does these.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

We could have used some of this.

Row flares over £591,000 spent on outdated website | Accrington Observer - menmedia.co.uk

The over half a million quid grant, raised by peoples' taxes, for Hyndburn to have a 'community website'.

Costly website a ?desperate failure? | Accrington Observer - menmedia.co.uk

With the amount of wonga to play with, nevermind full council meetings, we could have had every councillor cammed up 24/7.

If the money hadn't been wasted, we could have had so many cameras at H.B.C. that it would have made Big Brother look unobtrusive.

http://www.xjtalk.com/images/smilies/camera.gif

:rolleyes:

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

But Graham, if you turn up there, we'll only get to see the film you took of them leaving in protest again.

:rolleyes::D

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

If its done it needs to be done properly. We don't want it to look like a small child filmed it with a web cam. That wont give the professional image we expect from our Council.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Isn't that exactly what the walkout looked like? All that were missing were the toys and the pram.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I mentioned elsewhere I can't comment without knowing the reason for the walkout and if this is the usual way to protest in these meetings.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

It would be interesting to know what happened between 18th July, when the senior members of the Conservative Group agreed proposals for Local Democracy Week (which included the visit of the MEP to the Council meeting) with the Leader of the council at the Leaders Policy Development Board (see item 5)

http://www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk/downloa..._July_2011.pdf

and last week when they led a walkout of Conservative members at Council.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Podcasting is just audio and would be considerably cheaper. The idea was mooted within the Labour members about approaching one of the local colleges to see if their students would be interested in working with the council on such a scheme.

With webcasting, the footage would be archived online for viewing at any time although with finances the way they are I suspect that Cabinet would not be prepared to find £40k for it at the present time. It must be stressed that no one seems particularly against the idea, at least not within the Labour group.

The previous minutes of full council can be found here:

Council

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Thank you for the info Ken. Is the £40k hosting cost or recording cost?

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

As I understand it, that is the full cost per year for everything.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I think filming coucil procedings is an excelent idea, it works for parliament, i watch it on a regular basis especialy PMQ'S.

How do we get £40,000 to film say 12 meetings per year, thats around £3500 per session, you could have it chiseled in granit for that

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

If some clown from the AO can do it for nowt, then I don't see why some of the kids from A & R college can come down, film it and bung it on U tube for a similar amount.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

£1,000 for the filimg and £39k for processing the paperwork to get the tenders in

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I would expect better quality if posted by the council that the iphoned clip posted above.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

We only have 6 full Council meetings a year now. If anyone wants to see what we get up to they can always come and sit in the gallery.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

A full council meeting is the supreme local legislative authority within the borough.

6 full council meetings each year = 18 hours.

On average, how much does each councillor take home for his/her services?

What does this translate into at an hourly rate, given 18 hours per annum?

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Are members of the public allowed to walk out at any time or do they have to be a member of the Conservative Party ? :D

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

How on earth can it cost £40k to record 6 meetings a year and bung them online?

Allowing for an officers time to be at the meetings - say 4hrs a time - 24 hours.
Then adding a couple of days each time for editing and putting online - 8 hours x 12 - 76 hours.
So 100 hours officer time at £10 maximum = £1,000.

Buying a fairly decent camera and tripod - £1,000.

If it was to be put on the council's own website I suppose you could add something for extra bandwidth but you could stick them on youtube at no cost.

All in all, you could do it easily for under £3k, I reckon.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Attending full Council meetings is very small part of the work Councillors do.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I've got to defend them on this one. Most (not all) Councillors that I know work really hard for a pittance. I think it's just under £5k a year for the basic allowance. They're on call 24/7 and I know that they get called at all hours of the day. They spend a lot of time at other committee meetings and community meetings and they spend a lot of time working with the officers on various issues. I'd say they don't even make the minimum wage if you want to calculate their actual hourly rate.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I did allow a surplus of meetings to insert specialy convened meetings and meetings of special interest

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I'm fully aware of that.

Nevertheless, there is a parallel with the role of an MP.

Sitting in the chamber, asking questions and going through the division lobby is only a small part of the job. Attending committees, dealing with constituent's problems, lobbying for their constituency interests and other roles besides. That is the same role as a councillor, except swap ward for constituency.

The House, however, sits 5 days a week for the best part of a year.

Don't you think, therefore, that the Borough would be better served if our elected local representatives were to meet in full a little bit longer than 18 hours a year?

Here's a little sum.

MP's salary = £65K. Assuming the house meets fully 150 days a year, 8 hours = 1200hrs. £65K divided by 1200 = £54pds per hour.

I'll guess at £8,000pds average allowance for Councillors (I could be way out)

£8,000pds divided by 18 = £444pds per hour.

Draw your own conclusion.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Doesn't come across as 'moaning' at all.

More interesting, as why you wanted to be a councillor, and some of what it entails, that people don't necessarily see.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Oi! Whittaker! Have you ever heard of a bloke by the name of Aristophanes of Byzantium? He's the guy who invented punctuation, including the full stop, or period as the Yanks call it. Perhaps you should check up on him and on punctuation because I have rarely read, in either content or language, such drivel as your last post. I hope that you perform somewhat better in your role as a borough councillor than you have just done in this pathetic attempt to justify it.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Proper webcasting requires just a little more than £1,000 equipment to do it properly and to be honest if we're going to do it at all then I want it to look as near to televised parliamentary debates as possible.

Sound would be the major hurdle as the room would have to be wired up properly and I don't envy anyone that job, particularly when it comes to editing.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I sit here quietly amused by the public perception, if this post is anything to go by.

Jaysay has summed everything up, I'll refer back to his posts.

£444 per hour.....when's the next election?

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Fair enough. Perhaps I was being a little simplistic. But, I would be interested to know how they reckon it's going to cost £40k a year. Any equipment installation would be a one off. I disagree that the whole room would need to be wired up. I'm fairly sure that the houses of Parliament don't have the whole room wired up, just a mic at each side for each speaker.

As for the Officer's time - I can't see how I could be that far out. Even if I'm being ridiculously generous, I can't see how the cost would be over £10k.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I think your figures are a bit out.
Here are my sums.

MPs salary = £65k. Assuming they work 60 hour weeks = £20 per hour.
Councillor's expenses = £5k. Assuming they work about 25 hours a week = £4.80 per hour.

Plus, that doesn't factor in MPs expenses which would bump things up and the out of hours that Councillor's do which would reduce their hourly rate.

Hard working Councillors also pay a lot of out their own pockets that they can't claim back - for example every time they go somewhere they are fleeced for raffle tickets and donations. I suspect they're usually out of pocket!!!!

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I do apologise. I am typing on the run. very busy you see. i will try better. please do not take a tone like that i was merely joining in a debate on how councillors work hard and your obvious misconception that we are the best paid people in the world...(full stop)

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I can only go by the quotes we have been given for webcasting other councils and that is the average figure. It may well be less than that for HBC but we'd have to look at what potential bills we might be facing.

Parliament is wired up like a Christmas tree and during full debates I imagine the sound engineer really earns his money because someone will have to operate the console and make sure that the right microphone is being recorded otherwise you'd get a real hash. Unless you also had a vision mixer you'd also have a hell of a job editing as each council session goes on a least three hours and you'd need at least three cameras. Bear in mind that this is in my field of work and you'd need someone who knew what they were doing, not just decent equipment.

I'm keen on webcasting but all the gear and no idea wouldn't make for very good viewing.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I appreciate that you are in that area of business and undoubtedly, you would want the quality and effect to be topnotch i.e. the equivalent of a high quality TV broadcast. However, what is being suggested is that it could be done as a simple webcast, with a fixed camera and only the speakers mic'd up.

Editing would then be straightforward as it would be a case of breaking it down into manageable chunks and posting onto youtube.

We're not asking for high quality TV drama, we're suggesting that we get the content of the meetings made more public.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Exactly.

People will tune in perhaps because they can't attend in person.

They won't expect, or need to see some epic cinematic masterpiece.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Don't apologise ... it makes him worse ... just ignore; or, better still, get right back in his face;):D Punctuation isn't that important anyway. Bibliographers refer to punctuation as "accidentals" ... in other words, it ain't really all that important. Many great authors, Dickens and Melville among them, left punctuation to their editors ... you know, picky pedants.:)

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Just a thought - but as this is your area of expertise (as you point out), surely you should be the one questioning this quote instead of just accepting it.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

I don't agree, I think the Council need to present themselves as a professional organisation as always.

I wonder what people would think if the bin wagons were hand painted with a bit of Dulux and a 6" brush to save money?

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

At any other time possibly, but we need to make so many cuts just to keep on an even keel that it's pointless looking at other areas that will rack up a new bill. I'm truly sorry to talk that way but no matter how many times Peter Britcliffe crows on about the robust financial shape he left the council is I'm afraid he made the odd one or two promises that HBC could never afford to keep so now it looks like Labour are a bunch of niggardly halfwits who can't manage the books.

I would love webcasting but quite honestly even if it cost £10,000 it probably wouldn't happen just now.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Why not get the money through advertising revenue:

Hyndburn Borough Council Meeting

You never know - you might also get free nosh out of 'em. All the councillors could be captured on film, chomping away on their quarter pounders, while Councillor Britcliffe throws one of his wobblies and storms out. Exciting stuff - better than Corrie.

Re: Full Council - 22nd September 2011
 

Could you not hop on a Metropolitan tube train, when you have a spare moment, and check if these people might be interested in sponsoring a H.B.C. webcast?

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Reeds Crescent
Watford
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