Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

The fall out continues in the press this morning and why EdM was so right yesterday in his private speech to Labour frontbench MP's when he said 'make no mistake, Europe is an issue we are going to have confront. His concerns about migrant labour and depressed wages. That reform would be on Labour's terms. That jumping in to bed with Tories on their terms made Labour look shabby and unprincipled and would come back to haunt us. We said one thing at the election, now we are doing the opposite AND on a backbench motion. That Labour is a pro European Party, that the world has grown smaller.

I raise my concerns with Ed and his team particulalry on the issue he has raised, migrant labour. It is far more effective to be inside the tent looking out and than outside the tent looking in. A foolish hero for day, irrelevant thereafter.

The press are now reporting that some of the extreme rightwing Tory EU rebels were not that bothered about the EU referendum at all but rebelled to give Cameron a bloody nose.

So we now have a picture of the rebels. Some out of the EU because workers have to many rights and some that may be pro-Europe but want a right wing Tory party.

‘Cameron v Conservatives as MPs round on No10’. The scale of the rebellion reflected a factor that appears not to have registered in No 10 until now: the Cameron circle is seen as aloof from, and out of touch with, the vast majority of Conservative MPs.

Tory frontbencher with the ear of ministers: ‘This has been handled as shambolically as it could be. The prime minister has got himself into a decaffeinated November 1989 position.’ And: ‘The advice of Tristan Garel-Jones to Margaret Thatcher is as valid as ever. You've got to start smiling at the f**kers and pretend you like them.’

MPs say that Cameron's distance from the party came to a head over No 10's handling of Monday's vote.

Snr Tory: ‘We could have had a one-line whip and had the debate on Thursday. Colleagues would have taken that excuse to visit their mistresses – sorry, their wives.’

Another Minister: ‘It was difficult. David was absolutely clear that there was very limited room for compromise. His view was that if we didn't face this now it would just come back.’ (ie no credible alternative)

But the minister believes there is a big lesson for No 10: ‘The big thing for Downing Street is how they allowed this to become a lightning rod for widespread discontent with No 10. They appear to have been shaken that their charm in the runup to the vote with some, but by no means all, didn't work.’

Many MPs complain that the prime minister has a habit of surrounding himself with people from similar backgrounds. Normally loyal MP: ‘I am no class warrior but it is fair to say that his circle come from a particular group in society.’

There is a view that, collectively, Cameron's circle has no feeling for bbenchers, most of whom were not educated privately. One minister: ‘There is a feeling that Cameron simply doesn't care. It feels like he thinks: 'I am just going to be prime minister for one term and then I'll hand over to George [Osborne].'‘ MPs believe No 10 has shown little or no understanding of the Tory parliamentary party

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

Graham,....Well I am a Euro-sceptic, seeing that being in Europe will protect Workers etc, why oh why are the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) being forced into introducing European Flight Time Limitations (FTL's). These are seen by many in the Airline industry as being less stringent than the UK ones, which work very well. The CAA have given the data from their SAFE program showing that under European FTL's Pilots are more fatigued and can put lives at risk.

In particular, the proposed EU rules could see pilots so tired that they have the equivalent performance detriment of being Four times over the legal alcohol limit.

far from this being the Airline Pilots Union (BALPA), these figures are derived from the CAA's and Qinetiq's findings. So they are not just some Union rhetoric.

Still as Garinda has pointed out, you are not really interested in the views of your constituents, after all you are now a MP and above the rest of us.
As I said earlier, you eat out of the same trough as the rest, at least Greg Pope stood by his convictions.

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

Parliament is democracy. The vote in the commons was very much reflective of the YouGov poll and other polls. Sophologist Anthony Wells has done a good piece on why Europe isn't important to most voters. Public opinion on Europe.

Yesterday's poll here was to gauge the opinions on here on the substanive matter, a triple question, something you had either not realsied by mistake or convienently glossed.

In the end if you are saying Europe is the most important issue, then you ar relegating jobs and growth and I can say with cast iron certainty, you are way out of touch with ordinary British people.

I live on Hodder Street and have lived in the constituency virtually all my life. My flat is in one of the poorest parts of London.

If your point is I am out of touch then say so.

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

This is true and an issue. In this case we have better regulations. In many other cases we have poorer regulations.

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

So why are we going to accept it. Bear in mind this has been ongoing for a number of years.
One line answers are very good for Cmon, I do expect better off a MP.
I understand this may not in your region of knowledge, but it is a very very important issue, in the UK we have one of the finest records of safety in the world and have a very proactive approach to safety.
Do we want this to eroded.

Aviation is the safest form of transport in the world, we are regulated as tightly if not more as the Nuclear Industry, there is a continuing approach to safety and making flying safer. This will erode some of those lessons learnt. Lessons that cost lives in order to make things better and safer.

The French, refuse to speak English to French pilots and aircraft from countries that have French as a primary language, this has caused many problems and even the death of a English Pilot at Charles de Gaulle Airport Paris a number of years ago. Is this the way we want to go?

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

That's enough of my rant, we could start a new thread on it. But i wanted to add it to the Europe Issue as I believe it is relevent to the argument here about the referendum, which I am a strong supporter for.

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

By carrying on your pro-European Union argument, after the event, don't you realise you're weakening your stance even further?

You've now made it very clear what you believe in.

What the people believe is now rendered irrelevant.

Because despite stating just over two weeks ago that you didn't have a problem with a referendum, as it would settle the issue democratically, you voted against it.

It could be argued that you used your position to protect the U.K's membership of the E.U., and in doing so denied people their right to have their democratic right to have their view counted.

What are you so afraid of, if there's a debate, both for and against, and then the people of Britain can decide what they want?

As far as the European Union is concerned, the British people have never been allowed a say in the matter, so far.

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

Actually, were are the usual gaggle of die hard socialists, Mancie, Cmon etc, surely they must have something to say?

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

The bottom line is the MP for Hyndburn, put the wishes of Ed Miliband before the wishes of the people he purports to represents, I remember an MP who's only wish was to be the MP for Hyndburn, to represent, in Westminster, the people he grew up with and lived amongst, he wasn't interested in feathering his own nest, by becoming a whip or a PPS, he was a backbencher through and through, it would appear that his like will never be seen again mores the pity

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

Er...I think everyone's made that perfectly clear.

You are out of touch with what people think.

People are demanding, for the very first time, the right to vote in a referendum on the European Union.

That's perfectly clear.

To everyone.

But not apparently to yourself.

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

If this vote had been a vote concerning a moral issue, such as abortion, or embryonic stem cell research, people might not have agreed with how you voted, but would have respected your decision.

Monday night's vote was not like that.

It was a clear-cut vote about what is right, versus what is wrong.

It's right people are at least given the chance to decide what they want our relationship with the European Union to be.

Because so far, they've never been afforded that right...ever.

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

Graham, what's the point of propounding all these pro-EU arguments now? It's not as if we can reflect on them and then vote in a referendum...because you've denied us that chance.

If we were having a referendum, it wouldn't happen next week...it'd probably be years away, giving you and other pro-EU-ers the opportunity to put forward all the facts and figures you want. Then we could decide and vote on it. But you don't seem to want us to be able to do that...I wonder why? :rolleyes:

Re: Today's EU question: how would you vote?
 

Very disappointed. Far from being the voice of, and supporting the people who voted for him, it appears that following the 3 line whip - and perhaps thereby furthering his political career, he denied what is suggested as being the wish of the electorate of his constituency.
Beware the lengthy memories of the local populace.