Assisted Death
 

How do you feel about assisted death

Ask me nearer the time, I might not want it at the moment but if I'm in terrible pain or trapped with an active mind in a useless body, (instead of an active body stuck with this useless mind), I might beg for it!

By the way, instead of just starting a thread with what I assume to be a one sentence question, (no punctuation so difficult to tell), why not start it off by giving your own opinion, or haven't you got one?

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Can we include politicians?

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My opinion is that I do not agree with assisted death.
There again it could change with a deterioration in health.
You have heard people say that it was a blessing in disguise, when the event happens in some cases.

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When the time comes, I'll do it myself. If I can't do it 'cause I'm hooked up to some machine that makes funny noises ... well, who gives a darn, it's not like I'm paying the power bill. Another question is lurking to be asked here: when is it time to cash in your chips? For me, it will coincide with my not being able to wipe my own arse.:rolleyes: One has to have standards and limits, eh.;):D

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Over the years I have wiped an awful lot of bottoms......patients who for a variety of reasons, could not do this for themselves........none of them thought that this was a reason to die though....even those who were not going to get better.
The thorny issue of assisted dying is one that only you yourself can answer.....and the answer might change as your situation changes.

As Less has said, right now it isn't something that he would opt for......but if he were in great pain(something that can be managed...to make living more bearable) or if he was trapped with an active mind in a useless body - he just might consider it.

I don't think any of us can say what we would do.....we might think we know.......and we may be against assisted dying......but as circumstances change, then sometimes our attitide and perspective alters to make it something that we would opt for.
I once worked with a doctor who was dead set against abortion....would have nothing to do with them for any reason(social, or foetal abnormality)then unfortunately, she found herself in the unenviable position of carrying a babe that would not live long after birth, because of defects.
This experience changed the doctor forever.
She became much more understanding of women in the same situation.

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Animals can be laid to rest away from their suffering ,why can't humans?

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We all need a helping hand sometimes - but seriously, I would be willing to be with someone I loved and help them to have a controlled and dignified end to their life, if that was what they wanted.

I hope someone would love me enough to offer me the same help if I ever needed it.

( I have assisted vets and my husband when they administer euthanasia to suffering animals and there is nothing frightening or painful involved - only peace at the end of suffering and, of course, great sadness).

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Great.

Saves on the air fare to Switzerland.

The Alps are nice, but aren't a patch on the hills around here.

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Even though I also prefer the Penines, Switzerland would be easier for me -could avoid the British justice system too as I'm an outlaw here and have an alias;)

One name on British passport, another on ID card -Shhh! Don't tell anyone though, could get me in trouble:D

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If I begin a book, that turns out to be rubbish, I'll stop reading it.

If I watch a film, which turns into a stinker, I'll leave the cinema.

If I no longer have my independence, and face spending my middle age slumped infront of a TV, being spoon fed in some care home, it ain't happening.

I'm out of here.

Everything's planned.

Might change my mind, nearer the time.

Doubtful.

I never did read Catch 22, or see the end of Showgirls.

:rolleyes:

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You're like an alpine Mata Hari.

If captured, don't forget to swallow.

Make sure there's no evidence.

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Don't worry -have an in-built self-destruct mechanism which activates automatically once I've been read:rolleyes::D

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Think its a personal question, meself i aint being a cabbage fer nobody, summat i have always said. but until yer in that scenario don't think yeh really know.

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You're already officially well into middle-age deary, doing fine so stop all that nonsense at once or I shall get very cross and have your head on a spike, so I will!:eek:

Remember you've promised to show me your etchings when i next come over so don't you dare do anything rash before then.:D

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How very dare you.

You take off fifteen years, on the start of official middle age, if you're a non-breeder.

As you've experienced less stress.

Not being maudlin.

Just honest, and practical.

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That is a new one on me - good, glad you've got years to go and there's plenty of time for me to book a flight.

I know you aren't being maudlin and mean what you say -just as you know that i do too. Except with regard to the self-destruct device of course:D.

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My sister had a` living will`,when she was perhaps 2 days away from leaving us I near enough begged the Staff Nurse to treat her but Elaine`s` living will`was absolute,but when it came down to it,even after all her relapses and stays in intensive care and her MS got worse and I knew she had the will,if I could have at that moment,right or wrong,I would have rescinded that will.Not sure if this is assisted death but it`s not far off.(comments will be welcome whatever your views)

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Understand were yer coming from steve, i felt exactly the same wi me late missus, different circumstances, but same feelings.;)

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That's very sad.

It's hard for relatives, who love the person concerned.

I hope my relatives love me enough to know I've decided what I have, whilst of sound mind, and respect my wishes.

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Got it cashy,but Garinda when it came down to it,I did say no I could`nt accept it,maybe selfish on my part,but do you think it is assisted death,maybe by the back door?

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Not selfish at all in my view, But my guess is- as was a living will, would be classed as murder steve, not assisted? to me that would be the wrong outcome,but reckon thats the way it would stand.

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The living will Cashy was legal,drafted by solicitors and as far as I can gather,recognised by the nursing profession,so again I ask is it assisted death?

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No, it isn't assisted death. A living will is something entirely different.
Assisted death is the end of life by giving some drug to end the life......in this country illegal at present, but in other countries the drug is prescribed by a physician but the patient themselves administer the drug which will kill them.
In a living will the patient will have signed a legal document which outlines that no medical interventions are to be used to extend their life. This does not usually mean the withdrawal of nursing care to keep them comfortable, or pain free. It is recognised by the nursing and medical profession.

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I was sure it wasn't assisted death Steve, but Margaret has explained the reason far better than i could.

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This subject poses n interesting question to me- A good friend of ours was rushed to Blackpool,Pre- Christmas after suffering a heart attack, she was saved by being bumped wi those doofers 17 times thank god, My question is -Would that treatment have been denied if she had a Living Will in place?:confused:

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No I don't think it is Stevie, if some one has a valid living will made when in sound mind, and decides they don't want resuscitation, then its their choice. Its like people who refuse to have a blood transfusion for religious reasons, it is their wish and there is nothing medical staff can do to overturn that decision.

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My neighbour's sister died recently of some form of Lateral schlerosis at only 52 -she had made a living will to refuse artificial help with breathing, she was given morphine to ease suffering but I think that has to be very carefully monitored as it can supress breathing..Margaret will no doubt be able to correct me.

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It has to be carefully monitored in any case, nearly sure they have a book on the ward that has to be signed my the nurse (maybe even a staff nurse or above) when this type of medication is administered

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John, that is because Morphine is regulated by the Dangerous Drugs Act(1920) and is what is known as a controlled drug........and yes Dianne, Morphine does depress the respiratory centre in the brain....all opiates do this, but the effect is much more pronounced in the absence of pain.....so if you give someone who is painfree, a good dose of morphine, it is a good way to see them off this mortal coil......thier breathing will just get shallower and shallower until it stops altogether.

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I think the DDa was brought up to date in the seventies, and I don't know if the Shipman case made the authotities look at the use of controlled drugs again....can't remember.
Would have to check that out.

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I must admit to being a little ambivalent on this subject.
Would I wish to be helped to die?
I don't know, honestly, I don't. It would depend on my prognosis and how much pain, inconvenience and loss of dignity was involved. I must admit I am a bit of a coward when it comes to pain.

The thing that naffs me off about this whole subject is that we are actually having the discussion in the first place. I am an adult taxpayer and yet the organisation that I help to fund appears institutionally incapable of treating me as an adult.

I am advised on a regular basis what I should and should not eat and how often. I am restricted in what drugs I may legally purchase. I must apply for a license to do anything more complex than passing water. I getting just about sick to the back teeth of the army of concerned professionals nannying me to death.

And not content with adding insult to injury but twisting the knife too, the decision as to whether or not I can legally end my life when I have had enough of it is in the hands of people like Graham Jones and his best mate, Ed Millband and is something over which I will never be allowed any say whatsoever.

There is something seriously and sadly wrong with our society. :mad:

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If you think that your governments care about individuals - think again.
There is a policy in operation to reduce world population.

If you happen to be a 'useless eater' beware.
Laws to make suicide easier will happen, but will be restricted to non productive members of society. There will be the added bonus of benefit and NHS savings.

The law is more preferable (to governments) than the expensive alternative of providing effective pain relief and palliative care, which are rarely provided.

So you think you are being given a choice? - it is Hobsons choice!

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Margaret, I have witnessed effective pain relief, and palliative care being given......and with compassion and dignity too.(anyone who has used or witnessed the services of the hospice would attest to this.....I have even seen similar care being given on my own ward....helped by the skills of the pain control and palliative care nurses who came out from the hospice)
But not everyone wants to go down that route.......especially because it relies on the loss of independence......and for some people this is untenable

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Of course, no one has to "give" anyone morph ... the stuff is readily available on the street at around $15 for a grey ... doctors have over-prescribed it over here, and there seems to be more than enough floating around. Morph and other pain killers ... you know the ones I mean ... have become the drugs of choice for lotsa folks, particularly the working girls who don't want track marks on their bodies. But you probably know this, having worked in the health care system.

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Eric, I never worked with drug addicts(though we did sometimes get patients who were drug dependent, on our ward - they got Methadone while they were with us)....and yes drugs are available on the streets....but whether those who wish to end their lives would know how to go about getting some...or whether they would be well enough to do this is a moot point.
Any relative who assisted, by procuring some of the illegal stuff, would be dealt with by the courts.

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Is it really all that hard to come by:confused: Maybe .... never thought of it really. I think I have spent too much time tending bar and driving a hack (all in the pursuit of a liberal arts education:eek: ... never really enjoyed the life:rolleyes::D). But it really isn't all that hard to come by. Oh, and we do have methadone clinics ... free of course, with taxi chits for those on welfare and disability.

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Margaret P, it is rare that I disagree with you, but on this occaision I feel I have to.

Like you, I have witnessed the administration of pain relief and palliative care to a person very close to me who was dying of cancer which left her unable to eat. Effectively, she starved to death. I also witnessed the apalling laxity, rudeness and general lack of care exhibited by the staff of Christies Hospital, Blackburn Royal, the local Hospice and the GP's service. If it had not been for the Macmillan nurse an elderly woman would have died in a deal more agony and fear than she eventually did. The experience was anything but cosy and reassuring and supportive. It scarred all of us who witnessed it. Moreso because we all knew it was largely unecessary but were powerless to do anything about it, no matter how loudly we remonstrated.

I had a pretty low opinion of the NHS and its staff before this shocking death. My opinion of it and them now could not be any lower. I DREAD the day that I should have to rely on the NHS for anything. Let alone End of Life care.

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It is by adding your voice to discussions such as these that society as a whole, and the individuals that make it up come to some concensus on what is right or wrong - laws are made and boundaries laid down, for the good of, if not all, then at least of the majority.

As you high-light the main problem currently is the translation of the collective voice through the political system, which would then allow change. The rules are there to be tested and challenged, as society itself and the individuals that make it up are constantly changing.

You are obviously one of societies rule testers and question much of what is imposed on individuals. Constant discussion and the sounding of the communal voice is the way to effect change in a democracy- so lets keep talking about even the most controversial of arguments which are part of all our lives.

Let's not forget that each individual also has to take responsibility for his actions within society, and take the consequences of those actions. The major social changes of the last century would never have come about if not for those who questioned the norm and voiced concerns and exchanged knowledge and experience.

Currently there are some people who risk imprisonment by going with their loved ones to clinics in Switzerland where they can end their lives in a dignified way. Some are challenging the judicial system directly and there has recently been an overview which suggests that medics in the UK should be able to offer such a possibility to all terminally ill patients with less than one year to live. I am personally in favour of their efforts at change in this direction. Sorry this a long-read if you've made it this far:rolleyes::D
The following is extracted from philosophy paper I translated a few years ago, which in part prompted the above

"As we all know, in our age, the most challenging bioethical questions are about what a person is, what are his rights, his unity and his proper boundaries. The notion of “person” is a static one: it implies invariance, uniformity, stability, regularity and predictability, all notions extraneous to life.

Man is a community (of ideas, of signs, of interpretations), as the community is the most consistent individuality: there is a continuity, among selves, among ideas, and among inner experiences of any human being.

The community is not simply the collection of its individuals, as an organism is not simply a whole composed, as a machine, by the assemblage of its parts. It has an identity, a consistency, a coordinated body and a ‘social soul’, that has aims, hopes and common memories, that feels and suffers. The community is thus more real and concrete than any single individual"

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I have also experienced exactly the same thing here in Italy, witnessing the slow agonising death of my mother-in-law after she suffered a series of mini-strokes and was kept alive, to the distress of her family for over a month by intubation etc.

I truly hope something will change for the better in the not too distant future.

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It all sounds wonderful, in theory. But in practice, The executive hears what it wants to hear and only what it wants to hear, despite frequent protestations to the contrary accompanied by copious quantities of crocodile tears. How many time times did we hear that labour were "Learning the lessons" after each and every cock up only to see them then carry on with business as usual? How many times will we have to hear 'Call me Dave' tell us he 'Gets it' before we all come to the conclusion that he is lying through his teeth?

We have a prime example in a thread currently being bumped up the board regarding our MP's decision to vote with his party and the government, against the wishes of his electorate in the issue of the EU referendum. Will he explain his decision? Will he come and discuss the matter with any of his former friends on this forum? Will he respond to anything that we now have to say to him on this or any other matter? What do you think!

A few years ago The French and the Dutch gave their opinion of the Lisbon Treaty in referendums. Did the Brussels executive take any notice? The Irish had to have two go's at getting the only answer acceptable to the executive.

You clearly have much more faith in the nature of representative democracy than I do. And I am sort of pleased that you are able to be less cynical than I am. For me, it seems nothing short of revolution will effect meaningful change. Perhaps I have lived too long.

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I am really sorry to hear of your experience A-B and can understand why you felt you needed to disagree with me.
I have had a bad experience with the Christie Hospital....and when I was working it was always held up to us in the DGH as the epitome of care and service....but my experience didn't perceive it like that.

But then again, I did have many patients who were given excellent service from our local hospice and the palliative care team from there(they visited daily or more often if the need arose).....and it is that on which I base my comments.
I have been out of the NHS now for almost 10 years.......and I know things have become increasingly tough...resources limited etc.

End of life care is a very difficult and emotive subject......and dealing with the dying (and their relatives - who need just as much care as those who are at the end of their life) is a labour of love. It really needs dedicated services with nurses who really do care about those in their care.

I know when I trained, we were always taught to not get involved, but from my own experience, I cannot see how you can look after someone at the end stage of their life without some emotional involvement....because failing to become involved, means that you don't fully grasp the importance of getting it right.

That is my perspective on it anyway.

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Possibly you are right - you are the realist, more worldly than myself, undoubtedly.

Revolution is a word that is being bandied about rather a lot recently. If the traditional methods don't work then that is the inevitable conclusion, though I've honestly always believed that our democracy was too grown-up, no, "evolved" for that.

I am quite an idealist though so maybe I'll be proved wrong and you will turn out to be right.

Don't be too world-weary though A-b, you're not quite at the age of resignation yet...;):D

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A 'living will' would or should have prevented that.....she would have not have been intubated and would have been allowed to succumb.
I don't know if you have the equivalent of living wills in Italy.

Sometimes the doctors will speak with relatives of seriously ill patients who are not expected to survive and will mark the notes DNR(do not resuscitate) but my own experience of this, is that the consultants that I worked with were very reluctant to mark this in the case notes...regardless of how hopeless the case was....and in the absence of such a record, it meant that if the patient arrested we had to attempt resuscitation. This is not good when you have a patient in the terminal stages of cancer.......all you are doing is prolonging their suffering and pain.

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Which would be all very well, Margaret, if the NHS was just starting out. You could easily make allowances for the uncoordinated responses and lapses in care, respect, and humanity. But the NHS is not a recent invention. It has been lurching from crisis to crisis for seventy years, longer than I have been alive! How much more of this institutionalised incompetence do we have to take before we wake up and admit that it does not work and a new approach is needed?

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Which supposes that there are, more commonly, instances where doctors do not speak to relatives of the terminally ill and routinely mark the the notes DNR anyway.

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I wish I had the answer for you.
All I can say is that I know how things should be done.
That can be a bind, because you have expectations....and frequently the service will not match your expectations.....and this is true even if you are paying privately.
I know of an old lady(in her 90's) she has no family in this country. She is well off and pays for her care.......and it is abysmal.
The young girls who come to deal with her personal needs do not speak english, or have only a very basic understanding.......they rush in and just do the minimum to tick the boxes on her care plan.
This lady lives in Eastbourne.......if she lived nearerI would undertake some of her care myself(well, I would if she would let me - she is an old friend of my mothers and frequently says she wishes I lived down there and would help her the way I help Ma).

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Well, I obviously cannot speak for what happens now, but it was not allowed when I was in charge of the ward. Notes marked withDNR had(it was policy) to have the consent of the consultant, who would first meet with relatives before marking the notes thus.

As I said in my previous post the problems arose when such patients who were terminally ill - end stage terminal, arrested and there was no order not to resuscititate...this meant resuscititation had to be attempted.

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This was 6 yrs ago Margaret, so living wills were not common. Also the doctors convinced my sister-in-law to continue the treatment, giving the impression that there could be some hope when effectively there was not.

By contrast we looked after my Father-in-law through lung cancer at home in 2001 and he had a much better "end", with good pain control and assistence once we had managed to get it in place..i think most patients would rather not be in hospital when they know they are terminal.

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To be honest hopsital is not the right place for end stage terminal care.
Patients are much better in their own homes with the right suppost services in place...but that is the key.......right support services and the support must be aimed at the family as well as the patient.

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I was reading an article on care at the end of life the other day and it shocked me to discover that the one thing the elderly fear most is not dying, but going into hospital. I am talking here of people over retirement age.

That is so, so, wrong!


Personally I blame television series like Holby City. They are dramas and they naturally present life in a hospital as edgy, exciting and mawkishly sentimental all wrapped up in youthful idealism with 'attitude'. We are all depressingly aware that the younger generation have a difficulty separating fact from fiction. It is hardly surprising therefore that the idea of nursing as a vocation has gone out of the window and that for this celebrity obsessed generation the idea of doing anything that involves contact with bodily fluids or bodily waste is beneath them and that consequently they regard those who produce such things as equally beneath them. Sadly, from there it is but the very shortest of steps to considering such people as less than human and, quite frankly, a nuisance, really.

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It as watching Emergency Ward 10 that made me want to become a nurse....but that was way back when TV was somehow gentler.
I agree that people don't seem to want to go into nursing....as you say the young folk(or at least some of them) are much more interested in getting celebrity status.
The people who do choose to go into nursing sometimes do it for the wrong reasons...but that isn't their fault, it is the selectors failure to recognise this.

I loved my nursing career. It was like being paid for something I enjoyed...yes, it was hard work, yes there were days when I came home and wondered what the heck I had let myself in for.....but it was the most satisfying job ever....but again, it was spoiled by making it university based. Caring is something that does not need a university education. It takes common sense and application, it takes kindness and compassion...show me a university that can teach these things.

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The world according to Zog, I'm certainly glad I don't exist in it.

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I was sorry to read your terrible experience that became some one close to you Bob, but as somebody who has spent more than there fair share on wards in six hospitals over the past 30 years, I only have praise for the doctors nurses and related professions, without whom I wouldn't be here today, I have never had any cause to complain, except about the food in my first ever stay in hospital Bury General, apart from that I feel very humble and indebted to those wonderful people for the first class care I've received. The only complaint I've ever had is with the administration side of NHS, which really does leave a lot to be desiredand is certainly top heavy

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[quote=Margaret Pilkington;960663]It ws watching Emergency Ward 10 that made me want to become a nurse....but that was way back when TV was somehow gentler.
quote]

The one we used to watch avidly in the mid 70's was " Angels" -do you remember that one Margaret. It was quite unromantic and not a bit like E.R. or the all-action series that have followed.

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yes I do remember that. I was a student nurse at the time and the writer of the series came to interview me for ideas for the story lines.

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Who were you then? The glam Fiona Fullerton!;):D

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Ah those were the days... Nurse Carole Young... Did you know they have brought out some episodes on DVD?

Totally agree about the foolishness of requiring degrees for nursing.

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In other words: no, yes, maybe!

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No.......I wasn't anybody the writer just wanted background stories on which he could base his plot lines...or at least that is what he told us.
I didn't actually see many of these programs when they were aired, I always seemed to be on a late shift when they were on....and back then I don't think we had a video recorder....so I don't actually know if he used any of the material from the interview.

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If I was applying to become a nurse today, I wouldn't get a look in.......my education would not have been considered good enough.

My experience of the university trained nurses was that they didn't really want to do the 'personal care' aspect of the job...they wanted to do the technical stuff......the stuff that provides no comfort to the patient.
They believed(or at least it seemed that way) that the personal care aspects were the domain of the Nursing Auxiliaries.
It was difficult to get through to them that the personal care aspects were the most rewarding, because they gave comfort to the patient....and it was at these times that patients were most likely to tell you their worst fears and anxieties......in the privacy of a bathroom with the bath taps running, there is no chance of being overheard by other patients.
Ok, I may be being unkind to some university trained nurses...but in the main I think the sandwich course style training was better at equipping you to be an effective Staff Nurse.

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Its all well and good insisting that nurses now have to be university educated to degree standard, but you sure as hell don't learn compassion and caring at university, that comes from within and it is easy to tell, there is a big difference in what I call the old guard and the newbies although the new generation within the nursing profession still do a good job and are very clued up with whats happening, nursing is now more of a career than a vocation, which is the sad part really

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Depends on whose we're talking about.

Should it be a much loved family member or friend whose suffering worsens every day & they so wish it to end I would agree if that is what they want. why should they be any different to an old & faithful family pet, we'd have no problem easing the pains of with a trip to the vets, why should our human companions not be allowed this compassion also to ease their hurts ?

For those depraved creatures out there who are neither use to man nor beast, a drain on society whose crimes have resulted in death of another, most certainly, happily & the sooner the better.

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Hard cases make bad law .

I hope it will never be legal in this country .

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If I wanted to kill myself but wasn't physically able to do so I would be extremely ****ed off if no-one would help me.

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I tend to agree with you here JCB, to me it would be the thin end of the wedge, I've always said I could end my life by just waling into my bedroom and opening my drug cupboard, but I couldn't put my family through the ordeal

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This topic has made the news again today.
There is a process named 'Liverpool Assisted Pathway' whereby speedy death is ensured.

Elderly patients 'helped to die to free up beds', warns doctor - Telegraph

With such a procedure in place it makes it easier for hospitals to decide to use it, whether it is appropriate or not, to free up beds and achieve targets.

I am not against voluntary euthanasia, but this isn't that -
it seems more like a cost cutting cull of the 'useless eaters'.

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There are more and more people including DNR notices in their records these days, I'm not one of um though;)

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You are not a 'write off' at 65.
I am nearing 70, and if hospitalisation became necessary for me, I would seriously contemplate a DIY job at home.

Lying in a noisy hospital ward to achieve death by starvation and dehydration is not my idea of a dignified death.

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I ain't going to live that long Margaret;)

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Here in god's country things look as if they may be changing in this area. Of course, we have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms.:alright: I don't know if the government will appeal ... probably will ... If they do it will have to go to the Supreme Court, which has a history of ruling in favour of individual rights. I believe that the Court would rule in favour of assisted death. Granting the right to Canadians is a recognition that they have control over this terminal aspect of their lives.

Right to assisted suicide 'momentous' says B.C. woman - British Columbia - CBC News

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Me too ... as long as I can load, pump, point and pull, I'm ok. I have a good and true friend who has promised to help me out in, let's say, certain circumstances. And I've promised to do the same for him. What are friends for, eh.

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That's fair enough if it's your private choice and wish..as the law now stands there could be a possibilty of your or your mate facing charges... like you say a true friend would do the action but should also be prepared take the very slim risk of being charged ..so I can't see any need to make assisted death legal.

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The point of the BC ruling is that assisted death is, according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, already legal in Canada. What is illegal is the law which presently makes it illegal.:confused:;) So, the Government of Canada has two options: back to the drawing board and come up with revised legislation, or, appeal the ruling. I'd be happy seeing it go to the Supreme Court.