Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Never said it hadn't?

However..

Arndale..one bad driver can cause a logjam, use at your peril
Back of the old tyre place...difficult to navigate, one badly parked car causes problems for everyone, dead end at the other side, use at your peril
King Street..have to circumnavigate the planet to get to it unless approached from Oswaldtwistle, fill up before using, no through flow
Black Abbey St/Oak St..no traffic flow and too 'bitty', go into one bay, find it full, 3 point turn or reverse onto main road, rinse and repeat at the next entrance
Morrisons...NCP..nuff said
Eastgate..similar to King St unless approaching from Huncoat

With the exception of the Arndale and Morrisons you cannot drive in circles until you find a space. Street parking times of 30mins-2hrs does not encourage browsing, a coffee, pie and chips in a cafe...

'Free' does not mean desirable or quality

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Guinness, desirable and quality are never free...maybe that is why people go out of town to buy what they need....and a new bus station will soon be available to take them away from town...it sure as hell won't bring people in.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

See this is what is intrinsically wrong with HBC and thinking. Blackburn does not want Whitebirk because it will impact on them...this is true, the Mall and those widely strewn retail parks around the Bolton Road area will become wastelands as the shops there will move to Whitebirk...Hyndburn on the other hand has absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain if they negotiate.

Blackburn has already realised that anyone with half a brain will get off their local bus at the new Accrington bus station, grab a coffee from the machine and wait for the Blackburn bus to take them to the shops..they don't want the distraction of Whitebirk to draw people away.

The big shops also know this, only our councillors are blind to this with their forlorn hope of recreating a town centre that goes against the tide of modern shopping habits.

Negotiate with Peel, get the free buses, get a market area for traders..it's a win/win for Accrington

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Guinness, we can all talk until we are blue in the face.....they will not listen, neither will they take notice of the clear evidence that Accrington is never going to be the town it once was.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Agreed....Although you'd think they would at least look at the Lancashire Telegraphs report on boxing day sales that went to great lengths to talk about queues in Blackburn and Burnley but made absloutely no mention of the tumbleweeds blowing through Accrington.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

As I said, they don't want to look at any evidence which would show them to be wrong in the route they want to take for Accrington.Looking at such figures would just underline the incompetence of those who make these decisions.
What is the old saying ' there's none so blind as those who don't want to see' ??

Whitebirk Retail Park
 

I don't think there has ever been a consensus in a decade of various meetings I have sat in with the public, councillors, retailers, interested parties. Everyone sees the common sense of their own ideas and there's been no shortage of 'if only'...

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

That is just the saddest phrase in the English language......'if only'.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Perhaps you've spent 10 years going to the wrong meetings?

On this one single forum there appears to be a consensus about the new bus station, the market, removal of benches, Europe, parking on Blackburn Road to name just a few.

The Whitebirk story in the LT drew not one single comment agreeing with council policy all were pro retail park...isn't that a consensus?

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

And there lies the problem, if those Elected with the task of looking after the interests of the people, for the people, by the people cannot do it, why of why do you not all resign and allow someone who will get things done to take charge.
I am happy to offer my services as I am sure others on here would as well.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

I thought the whole idea of a Party having a majority on a council was that it could then do all the things it had promised for the benefit of the people who had voted it in? And make new plans for the future.
If, even with a majority for a 13 year stretch, no one can decide to do anything about anything what's the point? That even a majority party can't reach a consensus with its own ranks?
Management is about making good decisions and getting on with them. Preferably popular decisions but primarily good ones
A council is management. Its primary duty is to manage for the benefit of its public. The interests of 'retailers and interested parties', while useful, come second to that.
So what are you saying, Graham. That all we have is ' if only' and the town will continue to decline? Chernobyl but without the radiation?

It's not good enough!

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Like you said the people decide by voting for who the want to make decisions for them

If you wish to offer your services that's great news. Which ward will you be standing for at the election and which party or will you be an independent?

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Okay, well assuming I am still in the UK at the next election, just looking at working overseas again.... I will be happy to stand as Independent and for Church ward, seeing I live on Dill Hall.:D

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

It will be dismissed as this forum only consisting of a few people who aren't representative of the local population

You only need to look around any digital/social media platform where there is a possible discussion/comments to see what people think. Always strikes me as odd that the same responses applied when the town is mentioned yet nobody in politics sees them.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

That's the question. Are the views on this forum representative of the local population?
From the mix of people on here(mainly older, I agree) I suspect they are.
Perhaps you who live in Accrington and talk to lots of people can tell us.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

In general the views are the same as the numerous people I speak to in town, and see the various comments of on the internet. Makes no difference though.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

And there's the standard twee response from someone who doesn't take the time to think things through...

a) How when only 28% of the people vote is it considered a majority?..surely the 72% who don't are saying they don't want to choose from the offered selection, shouldn't they be offered an alternative until more than 50% vote? Even someone on trial is allowed to refuse some of his jurors, how come voters can't refuse the candidate selected by the party suits?

b) Even Ken Moss admitted on this forum that he had zero chance of being elected without aligning himself with a political party, and he approached the tories first, but was ignored :eek:...now he's a dyed in the wool labour guy and boy has he started to toe the party line since his election despite any protestations he's made (or about to make :p).

c) Independents unless they are well known and have money to burn for a campaign usually get around 5% of the protest vote

d) A fortune is spent on demographics and surveys...you won't find our Graham canvassing in safe areas, except for photo ops, he knows he has these votes, demographics and surveys..all paid for by the party...what chance would a little known airline pilot have against the party machine?

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

It's my standard don't moan about people who think they can do it better. It's more polite than step up and show us or shut up

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Polite?? see what becoming a mods done to yeh.:D:D

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

I can be polite when I have to be, or when I want something :D

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

anyone ever considered whitebirk retail park is in the wrong place......

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Correct it should be in Timbucktoo.:D

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

accy wouldnt have hurt it may as well be in blackburn for the good it does Hyndburn

i bet blackburn council or whoever it was called back them were peeing themselves at hyndburns stupidity of practiacally building blackburn a retail park that took away most of the big names from accrington like currys,dixons,gas showroom and probably more i dont remember right now and turned the qarndale into the mess it is now

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Whitebirk is on the border, most of the proposed park would be in Hyndburn and it's got good all round access...Blackburn are fighting tooth and nail against it because it would impact on their retail parks around Bolton Road and The Mall...Hyndburn has ZERO shops to begin with...just what would Blackburn be laughing at?

Blackburn has just built a very expensive bridge to nowhere, leads to an area they are demolishing...the cynic in me thinks they have that land earmarked for another out of town retail park..time will tell I guess.

The demise of the Gas showroom was more down to privatisation than it was to any retail park. With the increase in consumer electrics/electronics a double fronted Curry's shop in the centre of town just didn't have the capacity, kinda like the traditional corner shop just can't stock the variety of a supermarket.

You cannot seriously believe that the Arndale was affected by the wasteland of Whitebirk and not by Blackburn and Burnley with their mini retail parks, central shopping areas and covered markets.

And with that I give up..never gonna convince the luddites that there is no way back for Accrington :D

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

You don't need to convince me I already agree.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Has anyone wondered how the Council staff are going to see out of their office windows when this Pals banner is put up as mentioned in another thread?

I am guessing all those offices are now empty and maybe the time is right to demolish that hideous blue building making a more central and visible space for the market on Broadway

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Would make an ideal place for a new bus station.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

That's too sensible for our council

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

No I did not, I simply wrote to all three Rishton Councillors to ask what they actually did for us and only Labour responded. I have never claimed to be a dyed in the wool red but at a local level they whizz all over the blues from the top of the viaduct.

I'm vaguely amused by the notion of the elected representatives not doing their best for the people because their views differ from the most vocal opponents. Presumably a good representative is only one who does exactly what the voters say? Having the benefit of seeing things from both sides of the fence, I'm glad I don't live in that world.

In Rishton alone that would mean spending our annual budget approximately 18 times over in less than a month whilst drastically lowering wasteful spending, putting in more play parks whilst simultaneously stopping any new play parks for fear of noise pollution and antisocial behaviour, preventing traffic parking on the streets whilst increasing the number of parking spaces, doing more to support local businesses whilst encouraging larger corporations to open stores in the village, promoting Rishon firms and helping people to get jobs but restraining local companies who get so successful that their traffic supposedly causes huge disruptions, getting better mobile telephony signals and internet connection whilst absolutely forbidding new masts to be erected, improving conditions on park footpaths which are damp in winter but restraining spending on that park because it gets all the money, increasing the number of litter bins and dog waste collections whilst cutting back on excessive numbers of staff, spending more on Christmas decorations but cut back on the ridiculous amount of trivial activity I support each Christmas and introduce a combined recycling wheelie bin costing well over a million quid to implement but absolutely under no circumstances increase Council tax.

Above all, I should stop claiming expenses and get my trotters out of the trough.

Despite this easy life I find that I still need to work six days a week and the queue of people waiting to replace me as Councillor is shorter than a midge's tackle.

By all means stand for election, wage a five month campaign out of your own pocket, replace me and do all the research and solve all the problems which have come my way over the past four years.

Being an active Councillor is not an easy job, the pay is lousy for the hours and the hassle is phenomenal. Half the battle is being able to see the bigger picture and the other half is being able to recognise that you will never ever please everyone.

We live in times of massive compromise and therefore massive disappointment but every decision is thought through and then thought through again, picked apart, revised, reviewed, costed over and over and then finally a policy is implemented which has more positives than negatives.

It is never ever going to please everyone but we never take decisions lightly.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Ken, you can only speak for yourself.
You do not know, and cannot know the thought processes that are going on in someone's head.(and I say this with the greatest respect for your work).
As in everything political, there are bound to be those who do what is best to fulfil,their own hidden agenda....rather than what is good for the community they represent.
And like every other walk of life, there are those who will try to move mountains, and there are those who are dragged along in their slipstream!

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Congratulations on getting all that in without referring to Whitebirk at all :D

Taking you points in order...

1) I stand corrected, but you could have become a tory councillor if they and not labour had responded..point I was making still stands, you need either money to burn or a party to be elected

2) A good representative is one who does exactly what he is elected to do..represent the majority, vocal or otherwise. Just because you think you are the only one who is aware of both sides of an issue does not make it so.

3) In a nutshell...Noise pollution, ASB, traffic...all police matters. If you want to support local business stop fixing things that ain't broke. Larger companies will not come here regardless of whether Whitebirk is constructed or not. Central government has stopped you raising the council tax etc..etc..etc..

4) Don't think anyone has EVER accused you of troughing expenses.

5) Nobody said it was easy, but again do not assume that you are the only one with the intelligence to research the pros and cons of an argument.

6) Kindly explain why Whitebirk has more negatives than positives (after all that is the crux of this discussion), you could start with... how it will impact on the town centre redevelopment? what large stores have promised to take up residence in the Arndale if Whitebirk does not go ahead?, how many local jobs will be lost/gained?, what will the cost of this development be to the local taxpayers?

Fair play to you for standing your corner, it's more than the other lurking wet blankets ever do.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Taking your points in order...

1) I stand corrected, but you could have become a tory councillor if they and not labour had responded..point I was making still stands, you need either money to burn or a party to be elected

In all honesty, I don't think I would have ever gone Tory. I'm from a Labour background and although I have been able to appreciate what the national Tories have been trying to do over the years I don't care for the way they have gone about it. The local Tory leader would not have endeared himself to me even back then and I actually got more engagement out of the then Independent leader, the late Cllr Dave Mason. The major drag factor would have been Britcliffe, I simply could not work with someone who rubbed me that far up the wrong way.

2) A good representative is one who does exactly what he is elected to do..represent the majority, vocal or otherwise. Just because you think you are the only one who is aware of both sides of an issue does not make it so.

Yes, but the majority are NEVER the most vocal. It is recognising that fact and still doing what needs to be done for the long term best whilst taking an incredible amount of public flak that is the hard part.

3) In a nutshell...Noise pollution, ASB, traffic...all police matters. If you want to support local business stop fixing things that ain't broke. Larger companies will not come here regardless of whether Whitebirk is constructed or not. Central government has stopped you raising the council tax etc..etc..etc..

Exactly, but I still have to deal with it. That argument also flies in the opposite direction, if there was no demand for larger companies why would they come to Whitebirk? I have no doubt that they would in time but that doesn't get around the central problem (I'll answer that with your last point).

4) Don't think anyone has EVER accused you of troughing expenses.

Oh believe me, they have. I can show them all the published figures but I somehow am still fiddling things and abusing my power. Two residents in particular are convinced that being elected onto the committees of the Free Gardeners Club and the People's Centre is evidence of me using my influence to get ahead. Why let the truth get in the way of a good imagination?

5) Nobody said it was easy, but again do not assume that you are the only one with the intelligence to research the pros and cons of an argument.

I'd never say that and I apologise if that's how it came across but there is far more to most problems than simply pleasing the public. The vast majority of problems/developments are determined by money but a big one-off dollop of cash for HBC in S106 monies for approving a scheme is useless if it has long-term damaging effects on the rest of the local economy.

6) Kindly explain why Whitebirk has more negatives than positives (after all that is the crux of this discussion), you could start with... how it will impact on the town centre redevelopment? what large stores have promised to take up residence in the Arndale if Whitebirk does not go ahead?, how many local jobs will be lost/gained?, what will the cost of this development be to the local taxpayers?

I don't know that anyone has refused to go into the Arndale in connection with Whitebirk but it would certainly damage traders who are already in Accrington. If we are struggling to lure big names into Accrington without any competition on the doorstep just imagine what will happen when there is.

I have never held with this 'number of local jobs to be created' because it always sounds better than it is in actuality. Zero hours contracts, part time shifts, hardly any full time jobs at all is the likely reality but dressing it up as 1000 new jobs for local people sounds pretty lovely doesn't it?

The cost to the local taxpayer will be in terms of lost tax revenue. You open up new units in direct competition with dozens of smaller businesses already doing the same thing and the larger business will usually win. The smaller businesses close, all that revenue disappears and you end up with empty shops in return for business tax from just one unit. It speaks volumes that even Blackburn Council don't want it when they already have retail parks of their own. I'm no fan of BwDBC but the simple fact remains that there is only so much money to go around and so you end up damaging everyone by opening up direct competition.

Fair play to you for standing your corner, it's more than the other lurking wet blankets ever do.

Thank you. I've never been afraid to speak my mind which surprises some people but at least you know what you're voting for with me.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

well it wouldnt hurt if an elected representitive did what he or she said he or she would do especially when its an issue that is very important to a lot of people

also it is the job of an elected representitive to do as the voters say so yes a good representitive does what the voters say

mind you tony blair broke every election prommise within a year or there abouts and this shower of crap we have now have pulled more u-turns than a boy racer on an icy carpark including their no u-turn policey

no wonder folk think most of em are crooked liars they cant keep their word and fiddle expenses

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

The problem is its always looked at on party political lines, not what's best for the town, and your the worst culprit, if its Tory its rubbish, according to the gospel of St. Graham:eek:

Whitebirk Retail Park
 

I'll always do my best for the area and will continue to do so with incredible passion. There's nothing party political about wanting progress.

There is incredibly strong leadership at the Council, and a clear sense of direction by the Labour majority.

There have been and still are wildly differing views on the town centre. The latest CATCH, Tony Dobsons 13 point plan, Labours long term view since taking over and many others. There clearly isn't a consensus and I have never known a period where everyone has agreed.

What I want to see is one clear plan and sticking to it. In the past we have had several plans back to back, or no clear plan, populism, indulgence, changing plans, or plans that won't be relevant tomorrow and a division of opinion that has quite frankly stalled progress. The bus station being the perfect example.

A majority Labour Council/Party has a long term vision. Consolidation of shops, ie less. More leisure retail. Period features returned. More town centre living. Better transport links. Greater focus on the market.

Good ideas are welcome but as Ken says they often don't pass the acid test or aren't really game changers and when kicked around in public meetings end up being partially of wholly rejected in a democratic and intelligent way. Nothing to do with Party politics. Town Centre meetings are open public meetings and your welcome to put your ideas forward to others.

If my view had prevailed BTW the pavilions would not have been built and the bus station would have been built on the old Peel Steet footprint. However the majority back then, wanted Crawshaw Street and turned up at meetings to make a strong case. I was the minority then. One of the difficulties of the job is public opinion csn change over time. A classic example of that is the old clock in the Arndale, derided at first but cherished years later.

Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Guinness wrote

d) A fortune is spent on demographics and surveys...you won't find our Graham canvassing in safe areas, except for photo ops, he knows he has these votes, demographics and surveys..all paid for by the party...what chance would a little known airline pilot have against the party machine?

REPLY

I lived the last 30 years in a deprived ward. I worked at Daltons for the last 10 up to GE. I worked in a care home, also as a bin man and have had several spells out of work and had to rent my own home because we couldn't afford it.

It is disingenuous to say voters are easily taken in by a 'party machine'.

We all get frustrated about issues but the Councils has dozens of public meetings where you get to find out a lot more, where you get to air your views and hear the pitfalls and complications of an issue.

Finally consensus. I receive letters occasionally that talk about 'we the people' and 'not listening'. A recent reply I gave listed my lifelong friends here in Accrington. A van driver, a postman, unemployed, trading standards officer, self employed, NHS accountant, GCHQ, recent unemployed. Ordinary Accrington people who have always voted Labour, think about issues seriously and certainly have a different view to the letters I receive stating 'we the people'.

As Ken says there is not the public consensus that is sometimes made out.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

I've been to a few of these public meetings, where searching questions are dodged, ideas are brushed off and the outcome is steered to the one preordained. It's like being on an opposition bench during a major debate.

It's disingenuous to ask anyone to believe that surveys, polls and demographics, paid for by the party machine, are not used in selecting where to electioneer.

Steve Kean once told the national press that he had a mandate from a hundred well wishing letters a day proving that the majority were behind him. I could argue that everyone that I have talked to agrees that Whitebirk would be a good thing...I won't because I can't evidence it, neither could Kean and neither can you evidence that your 8 card carrying mates are a true representation of what 'we the people' want.

The long term labour vision, by definition, is just that...a dream.

You are not 'listening' to the public who are voting with their feet and shopping elsewhere. People do not go shopping to look at 'period features', they want 'more' not 'less shops', stating that you will place a 'greater focus' on the market is just a soundbite, because you don't actually outline how you are going to deliver on this. As for more leisure retail, sorry mate they are quite happy on leisure retail parks in Blackburn and Burnley, where you can buy some stuff get it carried to your car and continue shopping next door,such a pity Hyndburn is refusing to allow one to be built here.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

People have been shopping elsewhere for years. When the Trafford Centre opened Accrington lost 11% of it's trade. Town centres everywhere are suffering. We have a national high street crises.

You are not wright either on 'party machine'. We do not target or identify. We knock every area equally and put many hours in to doing so. That's how we know what the majority think.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Unfortunate choice of words, Graham!

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes...high streets across the country are dying...and the reason is simplicity itself....because the shopping habits of 'we the people' have changed.

The days of struggling through town with a handful of bags in both hands, wet through, frozen to the marrow and struggling to find a seat on a council run bus are as consigned to history as calling in at the local fletcher to buy arrows for mandatory Sunday afternoon practice.

HBC is like King Canute ordering the waves of modern retail and shopping practice to go back to the mid 20th century..ain't gonna happen.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

There are still people who do shop locally because they have no option......those are the elderly and the infirm.
The elderly often have no access to computers or no interest in them...they cannot pay bills or shop online(and forgive me MargaretR - you are the exception which tests the rule).
The infirm cannot get to places like the Trafford Centre - and probably wouldn't shop there if they could get there.
How do we service the needs of these people?
Why, we move the bus station further away from the market.......a market that doesn't need any help in dying.
The town centre needs pulling together not blowing apart.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

I, like most people nowadays, do shop online for certain items because it is usually quite hassle free and cheap. You still can't get away from the nice feeling if a shopping trip out and a handful of bags of new stuff and I do that regularly in Accrington.

Despite everything that is being done to prevent a swift demise for Accrington there is derision.

I want clear answers from this forum as to what members would do instead because from what I can see people are happy to slag off HBC for letting it die yet happy to slag off HBC for trying to prop it up. Given the state of shopping centres around the country I am happy with what we are trying to do but I would like to hear what others would do.

Answers please.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Ken, I have made suggestions.
Move the current outside stall holders into the empty talls in the market hall(this would make the market hall feel more occupied.....get rid of some of the empty spaces, they just make it feel like a mausoleum).....demolish the outside market stalls and use this area for the bus station....it won't happen of course, the site at the back of Union street has already been rubber stamped.
A bus station that is central would surely enhance the use of the shops on Broadway and of course the market hall....it would make shopping easier for those who rely on public transport(the elderly,the infirm, those on limited budgets).
Who in their right mind wants to shop on the market/market hall and then lug bags of shopping back down Union street to catch the bus home?

People will use this new bus station to go out of town to places where the shopping experience is more customer centred - where the transport system is nearer to the shops.

This opinion has been aired on here for a long time.......it is just that no-one appears to have taken much notice of what the customer wants or needs.

The hideous 60's building on Broadway could have been demolished and the bus station built there - right in the midst of the shopping centre.
Wouldn't that have made more sense.....passengers would be dropped right where the shops are.
This bus station moves the centre of Accrington away from the centre(I know that sounds Irish, but I'm sure you get my drift) where the shops are.
Union Street to the Market may only be a short walk for you, but if you have heart trouble, breathing trouble or are just getting on in years, it is a marathon.

If you look back at my posts I don't slag off HBC for no reason...and as a rule, I state the reasons for my opinions.
I hate Blackburn as a place to shop, but I think they have got it spot on in siting the bus station in the centre,(away from the railway station) close to the market and with easy access to the shops

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Ken describes the dilemma of politics - that any action will be thought wrong, often even by one's allies. I expect builders, teachers, doctors, lawyers, musicians and the rest to have particular, useful skill in their work and that politicians will be on the list. Ken appears to have no such way to avoid or resolve this dilemma save that of asking for others' comment. I find this honest but distressing.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Has moving the bus station got anything to do with consolidating shops away from Abbey street? The Whalley Road end needs knocking down or are there plans for turning it into a town centre living area.

Is there a description what a Labour run Councils plan is for the town centre as a whole that would help understand why the bus station move is a good one?

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

You don't get greater focus on the market by moving transport away from it....moving the bus station is the death knell foran already dying market.
How many residential properties do you think the Market Hall will accommodate Graham?
Because that is what you will end up doing.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

I have to say that I can't get my head around all this talk of a dying indoor market filled with empty stalls and gaping chasmic spaces.

Where exactly? I've been in over Christmas several times and there seemed to be more on than ever.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Not exactly, Graham. What I have found in the past four years is that straight answers can be given in public with written evidence to back it up and still people will cling to a myth. The only trouble with myths and rumours is that if they're peddled often enough then they become the accepted truth.

The online community (not just Accyweb) is keen as mustard to emphasise what a hole Accrington is when it actually has plenty going for it. I've always thought this, even under the Conservative administration, it's just that shopping habits are changing and so are high streets on a national level.

Myself and my partner have been visiting a few towns over the past six months and to be quite honest, with the exception of Bury, nowhere has really struck me as being massively different from Accy. All this talk of pound stores and charity shops applies just as much to Manchester, Southport, Preston, Chester and Liverpool as it does to us.

I take the points raised about moving the bus station but to be honest it makes better sense to have a proper actual building and will uncover quite a few shops on Peel Street which are currently hidden by shelters. Of all the streets in Accy that is probably the one which I personally have greatest trouble naming many shops on.

It's also interesting to read views that although an out of town shopping centre with direct competition won't do any harm to Accrington because there's nothing there anyway, but moving the bus station two hundred yards will kill it stone dead.

Figure that one out.

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

The flower stall has gone and there are empty stalls(at least three) on the right hand side of the market hall from the Bottom entrance.....the bit that is supposed to house the museum is closed every time I go in there......and there are vast empty spaces.
It might have been slightly busier over Christmas, but then you would hope for that....seeing as it is a time when people are out and about buying gifts and food.
Ken, if you don't think the market and the market hall are taking their last gasps, you are deluded.
I visit the town every weekday, and it isn't worth a candle......moving the bus station will snuff out the dim light that the town centre is right now.
I am not talking the town down, I am just giving you a realistic view of how it is.....and I am not the only one that is saying this.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt !

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Again, I do take your points Marg and my replies haven't been aimed at you but, if I may be so personal, if the town isn't up to much why do you bother visiting every day?

I do blame the decline of town centres largely on supermarkets because they have become a one stop shop for pretty much everything you need. Very convenient but not good for the small retailer and not that brilliant for the consumer either I've found.

Due to working ridiculous hours for years on end, I have found that my new weekly shopping trips that I have been ordered to go on with my partner are actually a pretty therapeutic remedy. Simply browsing the shops or picking up bits and pieces off the market is much more pleasant than diving in and out of Asda for everything. A coffee or breakfast somewhere is a nice treat too and I have been amazed at how cheap stuff is (green grocery, cheese and cakes, for example). I have needed several repairs over the past 12 months and she has also told me of places which have sorted out everything I have needed.

I would never have known about half the stuff in Accy if it weren't for word of mouth simply because I don't have time to wander round and find out for myself. I would urge everyone who has found something good to spread the word and encourage more people to use our town centre, encourage businesses, encourage investment from companies that we want in addition to what we have.

I'm not burying my head in the sand, I'm just trying to adopt a more positive approach.

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I shop for elderly people and they want their goods from specified shops/market stalls.
Also, it gets us out of the house and is exercise for us - we get to see where the bargains are.

Preston Market is not brilliant and neither is Southpost, but then these towns don't sell themselves as being a 'Market Town'.
How does Accringto propose to market it self when the market goes belly up?
Of course the shopping habits of people have changed...but this change hasn't been sudden.
As for your comment of things being cheaper in shops other than the supermarkets - that just isn't true.
On one of the butchers stalls just this morning they wanted £3.99 for a slice of gammon(prepacked in plastic)...in aldi gammon(two slices - similar size/quality also prepacked) £1.99.
Some of us do not have the luxury of being able to afford that choice of buying from a market stall, a similar product which is almost double the price. We have to go where the best value for money is.

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I've come across wrong, I don't mean that everything is cheaper it's just that certain things cost a lot less in Accrington itself and are of much better quality. The fresh fruit and veg stalls for instance always leave me wondering whether I've paid enough.

There seems to be a growing demand for local businesses, there certainly is in Rishton and we have seen four new ones spring up in the past few months which all seem to be doing very well. Great Harwood Farmers Market is also growing and growing, it's very nice to see that shopping ethic being bred back into society.

Yes, there are things which could be improved and shops which everyone would like to see but we're crawling out of a recession and it is difficult to attract bigger names when they can't see the footfall. Mind you, if we attract bigger names then the Council is accused of not supporting smaller businesses so we lose both ends upwards to be frank. Look what happened when Tesco opened.

It's all a question of scale and trying to get away from the attitude of 'look what they've got' instead of 'look what we've got' but it's endemic. People in Accrington want to have a setup more like Blackburn, Blackburn want to be more like the Trafford Centre and the Trafford Centre want to be better than anyone else in Europe.

Whatever people have they always want something else.

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I really like the little quirky shops and lament that we no longer have a decent book shop.
I spent many happy hours in Wardleworths in Accrington, and Seed and Gabbutts in Blackburn.
I have little option but to buy off the internet because the town has no bookshop.
It is a question of scale...but it is also making the shopping experience in the town 'friendlier'...and I don't mean that the market stall holders have to have smiles welded onto their faces, but that the shops need to be concentrated more centrally.
Making it easier for those without transport to shop and get back on the bus with their shopping without having to hike down Union Street.
What is going to happen to Peel Street......is it going to be one of those open spaces?
What happens to the shops in Little Blackburn road and Church street, Warner Street and Abbey street. The new bus station will leave them all high and dry.

Whitebirk has never been a threat to Accrington. Certainly not to the market anyway...it is out of the way, there is no public transport to get to it and if you get there there is very little of interest.

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It will save Ken getting to know the shop names :D

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from Ken - ' Look what happened when Tesco opened.' Ken, if you and I can manage to get away with mention of a store not on Whitebirk Retail Park then I invite you to look at what happened when Tesco closed on Christmas Eve. Morrisons and Aldi also closed, leaving me (if I may descend to the parochial) potless in Great Harwood. Such competition, what?

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from Margaret - '...there is very little of interest. [at Whitebirk]' If I may be contrary then I claim that there is much of interest at Whitebirk. What one finds of interest, another can find of no interest.

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Your own fault surely?

The hours all those shops are open the rest of the year and you hadn't got anything by Christmas Eve?

Or do you live in a world that revolves around you and the staff of these stores should forgo their celebrations just to keep you in comfort?

Perhaps next year you'll organise yourself, get off your backside and do your shopping early to avoid disappointment.

:lamer:

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Ah, what taunts rise so easily. I had indeed completed my Christmas shopping in good time - and I do expect comfort in return for payment. I had worked my usual Christmas Eve, and am rather pleased to count myself among those those willing and so able. Sweet Jesus, if you are able, see those who taunt fry in hell.

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you shop every week for groceries, but how often do you go out and buy white goods, TV's, computers......you might find it interesting, but I would suggest that many do not and that is one reason why many of the units remain unoccupied.
Unoccupied units do not pose a threat to Accrington town centre.

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More proof of your charitable nature towards others I see?

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Exactly what I was thinking Ken.

Politics would be easy if there were no pesky residents with barmy ideas :D

Will Peel Street be reopened for traffic when the bus station moves?

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Maybe HBC should be helping shops promote themselves better, if you are only finding out what ACcrington has to offer maybe others are in the same situation

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I drove past it this morning under the railway bridge and thought maybe they could put another station on the line behind Currys/PC World so people could easily travel by train from Accrington to Whitebirk.

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I don't think the residents have the monopoly on barmy ideas Neil. :D:D

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They did help with the leaflet thing last year. Problem with Accrington is there are too many separate groups , if they all pooled together they might actually get somewhere, a bit like our neighbours do in that small village up the road ;)

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Once major changes have been made to an area it is virtually impossible to change them back when the changes prove to have a negative effect.
I always looked forward to visiting Accrington when we had a trip home, even when we settled in Blackpool - what was the attraction? Accrington Market was, when it was still the old market before the building of the Wilko/JJB complex, fish stalls behind the Town Hall that didn't stink like the current ones do, stalls laid out with pride and such a wide variety of goods on offer - new goods that is, not like the current flea market that we now have on most days.
The new bus station appears to be finalised, the effect on the town will not be felt immediately but I am sure it will have a detrimental effect as has been pointed out by others - when the impact is finally recognised the people who instigated it will probably no longer be involved - another case of "deja vu"?

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I understand that the road will remain open and extra parking is to be created.

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I agree to an extent, although Clare Pritchard works really hard on the town centre and is doing everything possible to get things to take off better.

I do still stand by my original point, if people didn't keep telling their mates how awful it is then more people might actually visit once in a while.

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To take off better?

Is Peel St to be turned into a runway?

Well at least BG won't have far to go to get to work!
:)

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The flip side of that is things only get done if you shout often enough and loud enough. I would much prefer to say nowt, sadly at times you have to shout ;)

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If we tell people it is good and they come and visit..... just how disappointed will they be?

You know Ken, it is just as bad to be unrealistically optimistic about a town that in the commercial sense, has very little to recommend it.
Sadly, I think Accrington falls into that category.

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this post has lost its way it is supposed to be about whitebirk retail park.

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where is whitebirk retail park in relation to the football ground?

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Do you wish for people to stop talking about Accrington or would you rather they tell lies?

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So you'd rather than people kept saying that there is NOTHING good there, it is full of pound stores and charity shops and nothing else, druggies, chuggers and the road and transport systems are a joke.....and still expect bigger companies to come here with a reputation like that being peddled?

Sod it, why not just wish for more Whitebirks and then everyone can really slag off Accrington, all those businesses within can get stuffed and the Council can be panned for not giving a stuff about smaller retailers.

If you want that is Blackburn really that far away?

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It isn't that there is NOTHING good here, it is just if you tell folk to come because it is a Market Town they are going to be mightily disappointed when they see the market and the shops.
It needs to be looked at differently........and it is no good pointing to other towns who have got it wrong and likening ourselves to them...we need to look at places like Bury.
A town which is well within travelling distance of a large city - which you would think would damage their trading base, but for some reason it doesn't!

So what is Bury doing that we cannot do.
And Manchester is a much bigger threat to the commercial centre of Bury than Whitebirk is to the commercial development of Accrington.

The excuses need to stop. Too many past councils have not seen the writing on the wall, have done things that have been bad for the centre of Accrington...and we are going to be having another disaster soon when they put the Bus station down Union Street.

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As is the usual ploy, you failed to answer my question

Whitebirk Retail Park
 

While we were out yesterday, Mick and I met a young man at the Railway he told us of a scheme about getting a grant to improve the shops etc on Blackburn rd from the Market hall up to the Viaduct.
That's a bit of good news, he promised to become a member and explain the details to us all.
I look forward to his input to the site.
:)

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Less, that will be good. There is nothing worse than coming into the town from that direction. It gives a really bad impression of the town.
I'm glad something is going to be done about it.

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Try coming into town from Whalley road up Abbey Street, I think thats worse

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Well, Neil, it isn't good, but I think the Blackburn road entry to town is worse.
It might not be the bumhole of the world, but you can smell it from there!

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Which part of Blackburn Road do you mean? Down near the new health centre has had a lot of work done already.

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No, Neil the bit from the bottom of Willows Lane towards Church.
It looks very rundown and unloved.

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well for a change I visited whitebirk today .... I needed a new fridge freezer ... I ended up in preston .... and got it from there .... there was only a currys and a pc world open ....

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Yes that bit isn't nice

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Neil, you are a master of understatement.:D

It just does the town no favours at all.
I know that all towns have their less salubrious parts, but this is on a main route into the town.

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Get into bed with the devil.....

Blackburn finance chief: 'We don?t want to be an Accrington? (From Lancashire Telegraph)

While our council have been so supportive of BwDC in fighting Whitebirk...this shows exactly how highly thought of HBC are by their Blackburn colleagues. Said it earlier in this thread, Blackburn council has an ulterior motive, Hyndburn council are just there to be used and discarded. (The lib-dems of the anti-Whitebirk coalition)

And what's the comeback from our illustrious leader...'pub talk'...which, when you think about it, is an insult to all us ordinary people who discuss issues over a pint. Classing everyone who chats to their friends about stuff that affects them as 'unthinking boors'..the only thing that surprises me about this story is the lack of an 'I do smile at' quote from Mossy or an 'I know more than you' from Graham Jones.

Miles Parkinson is a damned disgrace (cue implied threat from G.Jones about posting personal attacks resulting in jail time)..how dare he denigrate his electorate in this way..I have a challenge for him...he said 'he is creating jobs'...prove it! Show me these jobs that have been created as a result of his policy, because all I hear at council meetings is guff about betting terminals and various other things better left to parliament and zero about 'job creation'!

When are these muppets going to realise that a retail park at Whitebirk is only detrimental to Blackburn, whilst with reasonable negotiation it could be beneficial to Hyndburn?

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In answer to your question Guinness......I would say to,you....don't hold your breath!

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Surely the council leader wasn't talking in a pub when he told the LT reporter that he was creating jobs?????

Voluntary job losses as Hyndburn Council cuts £800k - Accrington Observer

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I saw the article and was initially repulsed. As we all know Blackburn is hardly the metropolitan mega city it dreams of becoming. However it did contain valid points.

What is the long term plan for Accrington that Miles vaguely alludes to? I have seen the town decay rapidly during the last ten to fifteen years and those of a slightly more silver ilk will have seen even further long term decay.

Various councils have failed to invest properly during the "boom" years and we are now reaping the consequences.

At least Blackburn and Burnley are trying to seek investments and both have secured the finances needed for positive changes in their town centers.

"“Hyndburn totally failed to invest in the future of the borough and Accrington town centre for many years.

“The results are plain to see. These are difficult times and we have to invest in the future.”

Can anybody say these comments are incorrect? I wish they were!! Until more higher skilled job opportunities arise then we are stuck in a vicious circle.

Although it should also be noted that Accrington has no intention of ever becoming a Blackburn either!!

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Blackburn Poundstretcher shop ordered to shut on 'launch day' (From Lancashire Telegraph)

quote from the piece....'But the store does not have planning permission for food, clothing and shoes, personal care products, or china, fancy goods and giftware, which the council said were spotted on sale during a visit to the premises.The council said it had ‘invested heavily’ in regeneration of Blackburn town centre, and it is unlikely to grant permission retrospectively, leaving 28 jobs at risk.'

So HBC..you still so sure that allying with BwDC regarding Whitebirk is in the interest of Hyndburn? Of course these 28 job losses will have nothing to do with the lobbying power of the owners of The Mall.

The people want it..but hey..the labour council doesn't..stuff the people despite the created jobs, they know nothing, we the labour council know better! 28 people on the dole..a drop in the ocean of a Labour council policy!

Oh wait...black up and dance like idiots...we'll support that frivolity, despite cuts in social welfare, health, motorway lighting and many other essential services...

Britannia Coconut Dancers SAVED by 1847 Act (From Lancashire Telegraph)

All because of an archaic law similar to the the one that says you should only beat your wife with a stick no thicker than your thumb....go figure

Re: Whitebirk Retail Park
 

Are B with D Council not doing the right thing by upholding planning regulations? The shop owners are at fault opening without the correct planning permission.

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You are right Neil, but what is wrong with Blackburn with Darwen granting retrospective planning permission?
Might it have something to do with the lobbying power of Tha Mall?

Regeneration of the town centre? Do the council really think that allowing a shop like this which is well away from the town centre will affect the trade in the centre?
Well, obviously...they must do!

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Retrospective planning is something that annoys me. It's different if someone like you or I built a shed not knowing we needed planning permission but when a company who have loads of shops failed to get the correct permission it's just negligence by the company and often just trying it on expecting to always get retrospective because jobs are as sake or whatever. Ooops a bit of a never ending sentence :rolleyes:

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I just think the council are being peevish....and if the Mall has lobbied against this company...they are too.
This shopping complex is established......it is close to Asda and all the other shops up in that part of town. I can't see this shop having any great impact on the Shopping Mall.
Blackburn for shopping, is what Arthur Scargill is to peace keeping missions.

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People need to have a choice of what shops they will visit......and everyone is trying to make their money go further.
Maybe it wasn't the Town Centre shops which lobbied against Poundstretcher...Maybe it was Asda, Boots and the like.....they really can't afford to share the market can they?

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Yeah by the letter of the law I guess they are..but...

Surely the whole idea of planning permission is to stop people from building monstrosities and not restricting trade and job creation. This is a 'jobsworth' case..plain and simple...and it's typical of the restrictive practice that councillors constantly show, and what they are currently showing by fighting the Whitebirk development plan.

We know what's best for you..so suck it up!

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Who decides which rules to enforce and which to ignore?

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Someone with a shred of common sense...

There's a world of difference between opening a shop on a purpose built retail park hoping to sell stuff, and someone building a 20 foot concrete wall complete with machine gun towers around their maisonette in Ossy.

Planners have always been in a world of their own...from Zeri and the supertip in Huncoat to the disaster of the town centre and market rebuild

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Road planners must be the worst :rolleyes: