Heros
 

Saw this in todays Lancs Tel.
That looks like it will attract a lot of flies (experts) as in ex spurt, a drip under pressure. Any body know who these cabinet councillors are.

Re: Heros
 

Surely it's a good thing that the lads & their families of a bygone era are remembered & honoured for their efforts & sacrifices. As long as they stick to facts & consult those who are knowledgeable in the subject it can only be a good thing that the next generations can carry the memories forward.

Re: Heros
 

Can't argue with that, the only thing is how will they know the difference, there are some who have so much gob, they can fool the uninitiated into thinking they are the real experts.
Bill & I had to put up with them for years.

Re: Heros
 

Aye, valid point, but again it comes down to consultation. If they really want to make this work, they need to be asking questions now as to reliable sources.

Re: Heros
 

Yes it was published last month.

http://www.hyndburnbc.gov.uk/downloa...net_Groups.pdf

See Appendix 3 Page 6.

2 Labour Cabinet Members (Miles and Wendy)
1 Conservative Group Nominee
1 Independents nominee
Mrs Turner, widow of Bill Turner
Representatives of British Legion
Representatives of Other Groups, at the discretion of the Chair

Re: Heroes
 

Seems pretty fair to me, but I would certainly have involved Walter on that list, his knowledge is second to none on the subject and shouldn't be ignored

Re: Heros
 

Re: Heros
 

Seems in keeping Walter, what do you expect, from a bunch of know it alls;)

Re: Heros
 

Makes me think they didn't tell her deliberately, then again i'm a cynical get.

Re: Heros
 

Nout cynical about it cashy it par for the course

Re: Heros
 

That aint come as a great shock.:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

Well you may have a point, she was the only one late.
They didn't invite me either, and those two semi experts that Ruth saw there certainly know of me.
Bill & I had discussed this when we put on the 90th aniversary at the Haworth in 2006, I've been collecting Items for a display in 2016, I've also got a mate living in France who's prepared to act for me over there, plus I know people who put on displays at Thiepval Memorial, who I've provided pictures and info for in the past, I'm sure they would be pleased to help. Bill and I didn't need the council in 2006, so why do I need them now.

Re: Heros
 

The simple fact,they trailed n owd lass down fer nowt, Does "NOT" inspire confidence in the competence in these people, as far as i'm concerned.:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

Looks like there are 2 questions for the Councillors on this site to answer or investigate.

1. Why was Mrs Turner shown so much disrespect over the timing of the meeting?

2. Why has Walter not been included, given that he is the acknowledged expert on the PALS?

Re: Heros
 

Walter you know as well as I do, there's no show without Punch:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

And you actually think they will gynn;)

Re: Heros
 

Just checked, at least three of our councillors have graced this site with an appearance since Walter made the first post, yet silence is still golden, mind you as usual it won't be anything to do with them, it will be other's who are dealing with it:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

I would like to think they will be as interested in the answer as much as anyone else. There is nothing to be gained by being rude to the widow of one of the acknowledged experts on the PALS, and failing to invite another to the meeting. So why was it done?

I can probably save the councillors the trouble, and answer for them, knowing the way such things work at HBC.

Mrs Turner won't have been told the meeting had been changed because nobody thought to tell her. As long as the councillors are informed, nobody else seems to matter to officers. A profuse apology is needed.

Walter won't have been invited because whoever was organising the meeting doesn't have the first clue about the Accrington PALS, and didn't think to do their homework.

Re: Heroes
 

Ya gynn think you've hit the nail on the head there, the council being so insular as it is, it was probably a need to know basis and as long as councillors knew, that would be all that mattered:(

Re: Heroes
 

From what Ruth said there were over a dozen people there, and an earlier post said 4 councillors, the question still remains, of all those there only Ruth Turner has any personal knowledge of the Accrington Pals, (she met quite a few of the survivors while Bill was researching the Pals), she was the only one not informed of the change of time. Some one wants chastising.
As for me I couldn't give a monkeys. No way will they be allowed free access to Bill Turner's Collection & I don't need any imput from the council, Bill and I managed quite well with the 90th anniversary with out them. As I've quoted before I've already got most of my stuff ready for September 14th 2014, August 2nd 2015 & for July 1st 2016.
Retlaw.

Re: Heros
 

Perhaps one of the Councillors who are sometime contributors on here will be gracious enough to answer the questions asked? If they do not have knowledge of the facts then they could always ask of their fellow Councillors?
The crass rudeness shown to Mrs Turner certainly needs an explanation and a public apology, as does the ommission of the recognised expert - retlaw, from the group.
I will not hold my breath waiting to see the apology.

Re: Heros
 

I'll look into Barrie. I wasn't involved with the meeting, but I'm sure there wasn't a deliberate snub to Ruth or Walter. The idea behind the meeting was to look at what we as a Borough can do to commemorate the first world war centenary in two years time.

Re: Heros
 

If that is so, then why were the British Legion & members of the Hysterical Soc invited, I would like to know what knowledge those members have regarding WW1 or the Accrington Pals, sounds like another hot air gathering.

Re: Heros
 

Its par for the course with our wonderful council they couldnt organise a pee up in a brewery, the state of the towns represents this. As for needing father's vast knowledge, photo's, lists, etc, why ask when they can nick it like last time! They should be offering an apology to Ruth at the very least, and maybe ask her what Bill would have wanted as a fore runner to the 'celebrations'. Maybe they didn't ask you daddy as they know the response they would get ... it ends in off!!! after all there are the other 'spurts' we know they can ask.

Re: Heros
 

Thank you Bernard for your intention to look into it.
I do think that the organiser(s) should publicly apologise whether or not the rudeness was purely an oversight or just plain downright incompetence.

Re: Heros
 

The thing is I actually feel sorry for Walter because I've seen that work he has put in over the last few years carrying on the work started by Bill Taylor and himself some time ago, I know he won't agree but I actually think Walter should get a big thank you for the time and effort he's put into this project, but knowing him like I do he will just say its a labour of love, but if nobody else will I'll say Thank You Walter, for all your efforts, you more than deserve it

Re: Heros
 

Historian names all of the heroic Accrington Pals (From Lancashire Telegraph)

I have attached an article written in the Telegraph last month which sets out the extent of work done by Walter and Bill Turner, and the article indicates that their work would be included in the forthcoming centenary celebrations.

Hopefully the Council can now put things right and ensure Walter and Mrs Turner are given the respect they deserve.

Re: Heroes
 

If this was written over a month ago gynn why was Walter ignore and Mrs Turner treated with so much disrespect

Re: Heroes
 

One for the Council to answer, Jaysay. Seems like a major cock up!

Re: Heroes
 

Think it will end up a book passing exercise

Re: Heroes
 

I only viewed this thread late yesterday evening but have now e-mailed the Leader of the Council to let him know about the opinions being expressed on Accy Web.

Re: Heroes
 

Judith I think he will already know, plenty of his foot soldiers wonder around on here every day and I'm sure they report back:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: Heroes
 

Jaysay - Miles Parkinson has responded quickly to my e-mail. He has passed my message to the Member Servcies Manager so that she can "address any matters which need resolving and make sure everyone with initial ideas are included."

Re: Heros
 

Having quickly scanned through some of the comments on here I am appauled and offended, but not surprised by some of the usual negative, snidi, nonsense from the usual posters, quick to comment about things they know nowt about and slag off others.
There was absolutely no disrespect, hidden agenda, etc, etc, towards Mrs Turner. It was a genuine oversight and human error. Yes, human error. The meeting time was changed to accommodate ME - an unpaid (working full time) volunteer, who had to take time off work to attend the mtg (and wasnt going to miss it) and not knowing how long it would go on for, was conscious of having to get to work too. Most of those present were/are on email, so mass communication at the press of a button, easy. Mrs Turner was apologised to by the Officer who had arranged the mtg, as did Cllr Pritchard.
It was very clear to me the purpose of the meeting, direction/s to go in, batt ideas about, who's doing what tasks, identify anyone else who might have constructive input to be invited.
It was the first meeting of the group, no one's been excluded, no hidden agendas, no preconceived ideas, etc, etc, etc. Yes, known interested & obvious individuals were invited along.
I do not profess to be a Pal's expert, only a mere relative of one, but was there as a community volunteer with lots of ideas, which i put forward, together with 3 handcrafted models. Blue peter at it's best with double sided sticky tape, staples and card ! Some of these ideas I've had burning a hole in my brain for some years and this is the ideal opportunity to try and make them a reality.
The Council are keen to honour the centenary of the Battle of the Somme and the build up to 01/07/2016. They have asked for community involvement and ideas - they do not claim and never do, to know all about the Pals.
Father hasnt been ignored, over looked or anything else. Cllr Dwyer spoke with him twice and asked him twice to come along but he didnt want to.
Father - I briefed you after the meeting and since about what's gone/going on. The meeting was 16 July. LET are a bit behind as usual.
Cllr Parkinson doesnt do passing of book, he's a genuine, sincere chap with the good of Hyndburn at heart. He doesnt do show boating or blowing own trumpets- not his style.
Doing nothing achieves nothing and that's not an option. So constructive input and comment welcome to make the centenary a success. It's easy to sit a criticise. Actually doing something constructive and contributing requires a little more effort !
We are the most famous town in the world and I want the world to be reminded of that - we got a mention at the Olympics opening ceremony for chuffing out loud.

Re: Heros
 

Wallop - well reminded about the nicking. I forgot to add, that I did state at the meeting that HBC (officers), have poached and re-produced copyrighted document/s belonging to Father. I'd forgotten about that. I checked with the copyright people (cant remember who they are) and they confirmed my understanding/interpretation of copyrighted work.

Re: Heros
 

Well now yeh had yer rant, I am appalled n offended by your referral to the usual snidey negative comments etc, The regulars on here are people that keep forums going, "NOT" part timers like you.:( Yeh can bleat all yeh want, The fact the owd lass was not told is "Disrespectful" Human error or not, n also the fact yer dad, who is one of the regulars on here, posted the opposite view to you about being invited. So shove that in yer pipe n smoke it.:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

Oh n heres summat i forgot to add, Perhaps theres a bit of guilt in yer rant? seeing how yeh are the reason the time of meeting was changed.:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

Dusty, I'm astonished at your reaction to the posters on this thread.I've been following it and like the posters was feeling sorry for your father who was obviously feeling left out of a project where his knowledge would have been invaluable.
Every post has been supportive of him and unhappy at how he felt he and Mrs.Turner had been treated.
If you briefed him after the meeting either you didn't explain the position to him properly or he didn't understand.
Either way, I think you should be thanking the posters for their full hearted support of him. The fact that their comments were based on misinformation was hardly their fault.
If anyone should be 'appalled and offended' it should be them.
If you have any grace about you would apologise!

Re: Heros
 

Think you'll be waiting a long time for that Gordon, maybe 12 months for his next visit:rolleyes:

Re: Heroes
 

As I said before Judith, Cllr. Parkinson will have been quite aware of what was being said on here well before your Email, believe me:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

Father hasnt been ignored, over looked or anything else. Cllr Dwyer spoke with him twice and asked him twice to come along but he didnt want to.
I have seen councillor Dwyer twice, once at the Haworth, when Jennie Rennie launched her book on the Tiffany Collection, when I over heard her make some comments about the Accrington Pals, for which I corrected her later, she said she was on the committe of the Civic Soc, she then asked my name and address, next time I saw her was outside Home and Bargain, when she said hello, and she would be in touch.
I know about those Blue Peter sticky tape ideas, quite a lot of what you know has originated with Bill & me, we discussed the 100th back in 2006, when we did the Haworth & the Ossy Mills displays
I have never refused to attend any meetings because I've never been asked, yet they invite the bogus Pals experts.
If I do get invited they will get a right mouthfull about these so called Pals experts, who can only parrot Bill Turners books. If thats the limit of their knowledge on the Pals then what good are they. After Bills book was published we found enough information for another book, but Bill died too soon

Re: Heros
 

Think you'll find he's a she, John.

Re: Heros
 

a well that figures

Re: Heros
 

I'm not in the least appalled or offended by dusty's rant. Sticks and stones may break my bones....etc etc etc.

If she's any sort of reasonable person she'll realise that we were acting on Walter's behalf who clearly felt badly done to, and if its all down to a misunderstanding, then its good that we've managed to get it sorted. Without the "usual, negative, snidey nonsense from the usual posters" the problem would have gone unresolved.

Miles has acted perfectly properly by ensuring the Council "addresses any matters which need resolving and makes sure everyone with initial ideas are included."

Re: Heros
 

Well, we could have a re-enactment of the war on the coppice, Walter can represent the Pals and you can be a German Sniper, I think we would get an idea of the atmosphere of hate that was spread over those killing fields back then.
:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

Well if you think her rant is reasonable, fair enough,thats your opinion, I don't.:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

Me neither:rolleyes:

Re: Heros
 

Not sure that was my meaning. I think I was trying to bring some calm to the discussion.

Re: Heroes
 

Ya should have been a politician gynn:rolleyes::rolleyes::D

Re: Heros
 

Having read the thread and watched it develop, I would say the thread had been reasonably calm under the circumstances, until she decided to put everyone in their place.

Don't you just love a volunteer that goes on about volunteering as if life should give extra brownie points?
I prefer the many ordinary folk that do equally if not greater works of charity without any wish to shout about it.
;)

Re: Heros
 

The thing is gynn,far as i'm concerned the thread was calm, And the snidey nonesense seems to be the case, fer some people who have n opposing view, n don't like a spade being called a spade,Well if thats how some are tough!! I don't have time fer folk like that.

Re: Heros
 

Re Part of Cashmans comments is " Regulars are people that keep Forums going "NOT' part timers"

Does this mean that being one of the "part timers" that I have nothing to offer. All I can say is about the vein that runs through most of the comments on Heroes is petty jealousies - why don't you all "pull together" in ensuring that any celebration of the PALS are a success and share anything that makes it a success and any glory that may come fdrom your imput - otherwise take your bat and ball home. its like my Mum used to say "if you can't say anything nice/good about someone - keep it shut".

Re: Heros
 

Not at all Keith,twas a comment to the unnecessary rant, the quote of which i highlighted, or was that too hard to grasp?:rolleyes: By the way is it not petty jumping to stupid conclusions?

Re: Heros
 

Sometime there nothing worth being nice about;)

Re: Heros
 

Ah..but someone spent a great deal of effort making that bat and ball, and others want to play with them without letting him participate. The owner is proud of his shiny bat and ball, doesn't mind sharing but, flat out refuses to just mark the scoreboard whilst the others get all the wags and groupies. He puts his bat and ball back in his bag. The others know they have a game to play and now have to do it using a stick, a stone and some wickets made with 'sticky backed plastic'.

Somehow I doubt that the bloke with the bat and ball with have any problems getting a game elsewhere.

And my mum used to say "if you throw stones you'll have someones eye out"

Re: Heros
 

[quote=Guinness;1006796]Ah..but someone spent a great deal of effort making that bat and ball, and others want to play with them without letting him participate. The owner is proud of his shiny bat and ball, doesn't mind sharing but, flat out refuses to just mark the scoreboard whilst the others get all the undeserved Glory.
I've slightly altered your post to bring it more in line with what appears to me to be going on.
From what I've learned so far about that meeting & some of those present, they are glory hunters, legends in their own minds, "couldn't have done it without me types". I've had dealings with them before.

Could some one please explain why I should spend 1000's of hours researching, 100's of quids on computers & accessories, 100's of pounds travelling round the country, to various libraries & records offices, then just hand it free to self serving glory hunters.
Those who pretend to be experts, who just parrot Bills books on the Pals, add embellishments, and fool folk into thinking they know it all.

Bill & I have had to put up with them for years, and I'm not prepared to cooperate with them to the extent of handing over all this work.

I've been to Pen & Swords the publishers of Bills Books, they tell me my work is unsaleable, they would need to sell a minimum of 300 copies to break even, and 400 pages of mainly family history & pictures of the men who fought & died while serving in the 11th East Lancs (Accrington Pals), won't sell enough copies.

Retlaw

Re: Heros
 

This must be published, and on this basis, if we can guarantee the sale of 300 copies, it would seem that this can go ahead. I hereby pledge to buy one, and pay in advance. We need another 299 people to pm Walter on a similar basis.

Re: Heros
 

Count me in too 298

Re: Heros
 

...and me. 297.

Re: Heros
 

296 i would love one.

Re: Heros
 

Thanks. So far that makes 7 copies, as the man said at Pen & Swords, only libraries & genealogy groups would buy it, and you would be lucky to sell a dozen copies.
I've been considering just 1 copy, printed by myself on special paper, its what the government uses to prevent documents being copied.
try to scan it or photocopy and the writing get obscured by the words copy all over it.
Just one thing, whats to stop some git from stealing it from the library.

Retlaw

Re: Heros
 

What about Regimental museums/associations ? Might it not appeal to them ?

Re: Heros
 

Perhaps actual publishing isn't the way to go with something like this. Much as I admire the effort and work put into this, lets be honest, nobody is going to read a book of numbers. Some form of internet publication may be more appropriate

I use the internet for research purposes on a daily basis, and often I have to pay for access to materials. I have to tick a box that says if I use it, I have to credit it, and if I download and print off it is 'watermarked' in some form.

Yes there are ways round this, but it's too risky for a business to take that chance..and in such a specialised document/book a single digit or additional name would be enough proof of plagiarism to put off an individual rip off artist.

Apologies if you've already been down this road Retlaw

Re: Heros
 

Put me down for a copy please.

Re: Heros
 

[quote=Guinness;1006919]Perhaps actual publishing isn't the way to go with something like this. Much as I admire the effort and work put into this, lets be honest, nobody is going to read a book of numbers. Some form of internet publication may be more appropriate

It is not just a book of numbers, its as much of the mans life as I can find, where he was born, where he went to school, his parents & siblings, his wife & children, where & how he was wounded which hospital he was treated in, where they were killed and buried, Etc Etc.
plus over 900 faces.
Then there are my other projects identifying all the men in Greater Accrington who took the Kings Shilling in WW1, plus all the local War Memorials, Roll of Honour & Rolls of Glory. Nearly 3000 pictures of them, plus 100's unidentified.
Thought about the internet, but again thats practically giving it away free, I've even tried buiilding web site, but all the programms are writen by the Septics, and their take on the written English language and its usage has me bewilderd, they go all the way round Church & Ossy, just to go up Manchester Rd to get to Bash.
Retlaw.

Re: Heros
 

Have you considered approaching Amazon with a view to having it published as a downloadable e-book?

Re: Heros
 

Just read the thread can't remember how I got here now it's early !!

I'll have one and good luck.

Re: Heros
 

Forgot to mention I had a relative die at the Somme I think he was named Beaghan his brother survived would be nice to read up on him. All the best with what you do.

Re: Heros
 

David Beaghan. Is he one of yours if so he had a brother Robert in the same Battalion. There are also two other Beaghan's living up Richmond Hill St & another one living in Milnshaw Lane.
I'll bet they've all stirred there tea up with the same spoon at some time.

Re: Heros
 

I've found that different Regiments act as if they are the only Regiment in the British Army. The Loyals, The Koyli's, The Liverpools, or Cheshires, wouldn't be interested.
So that just leaves Fulwood, and they'd expect a copy for nowt.

Re: Heros
 

Can I purchase a copy as well please

Re: Heros
 

I would definitely like a copy .... and I will even pay in $CAD, a much sounder currency than either the pound or the euro.;):D

Re: Heros
 

i'll have 2 retlaw ... cos i know the spugster will want one as well ....