hillsborough disaster
 

I watched a docu on this and it brings up the same questions..is anyone to blame?.. Thatcher, the Police, the supporters?... Thatcher had insisted on high fences at football grounds in the mid 80's.. the police did treat most supporters as animals.. the supporters turned up in the thousands some without tickets.
At the time Thatchers press and the police she controled nailed the blame onto the supporters claiming most of them were drunken louts which topped out to be untrue...to my mind that makes Thatcher and her ilk killers.. expect the usual stuff about Iraq but this is a direct killing of 98 people on home ground!

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So how is that any more morally reprehensible than lying to the country to take us into an unwanted and unnecessary war resulting in the death of over a hundred British service personnel? Why is that not "direct" and is it any more excusable because they died on foreign soil rather than a "home ground"?

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Take it as you see it mate..I did mention Iraq because I had the inkling it may be brought up.. two wrongs don't make it right and for the time being I'm talking about the near on manslaughter of 98 people at a football match..some of them very young.. a football game.. not a war..:eek:

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Looks like the Special Brew took hold of Mancie early tonight Wyn:rolleyes:

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...a war that was completely unnecessary. The Thatcher government's move to have fences installed at major football grounds was stupid and ill-judged but even they couldn't have forseen Hillsborough. Blair knew perfectly well that launching a war would result in the deaths of British servicemen and many Iraqis but he still went ahead, because he wanted to further his status as a world statesman.

Mancie, lad, I think you're on a non-starter accusing Thatcher of "killing" Liverpool fans (despite her many other sins) and I think you're doing it to divert attention from the fact that that the party you support harbours a potential war criminal.

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No potential about it in my book

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Ugh.I was aquainted with a guy who was in this. He had PTSD and he was a violent, aggresive, emotionally abusive arsehole, took a lot of £ off me too.
Great memories gave me a shudder then!
Ahem sorry. Okay, to blame, it's not going to be just one person or one dimension present(policing/governing/fans/other authorities etc). I think a lot of it is attitude. Around the time of H/borough disaster football hooliganism was the new newsworthy thing for society and a lot of the authorities would have had a one-sided way of regarding (most) fans, to the point where they had an opinion on them of not as worthy as other human beings. Those in charge of seeing to the gates and the passages being fit for the event thought more about control than about human safety.
Thatcher, sure if she hadn't have existed, it wouldn't have happened but I think Thatcherism's more or less blameless here-high fences are a good idea for many reasons.
The documentary is brilliant, I've watched it more than once but when all's said it's there for entertainment as well as enlightenment, and it's only a representation.
It's very sad though. The whole thing's very sad. :(

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Was in what? the Hillsborough disaster or the Iraqi war?
:confused:

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Thatcher´s sin wasn´t in insisting on high fences - her intention there was for safety following a string of pitch invasions throughout the eighties which could themselves have resulted in people getting killed.

Her sin was in not recognising (or not wanting to recognise) that the Hillsborough disaster was caused by the disastrous implementation of the fences - no escape routes, police trained for riots rather than dealing with accidents, and appallingly inept leadership of the police on the day.

By shielding the true culprits, and shifting the blame onto the innocent, she was guilty of abuse of power of the worst order. Some of the ways she did it, eg influencing subsequent police reports, coroners inquests and inquiries, etc MUST be brought out, so that history can judge her as the person she really was.

And as for the Sun, I can put my hand on my heart and say that I have never ever bought it since 1989, and the sight of the odious Kelvin McKenzie on TV still always makes me reach for the off switch. I´m not remotely interested in anything that abominable man has to say.

Phew! Rant over! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

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Wouldn't dispute that, but that doesn't constitute "near manslaughter" as Mancie's contending. Also, there equally needs to be a full enquiry into the Iraq war, the WMD dossier and Blair's conduct. In fact, I'd go further and say Blair needs to be brought to trial. But I don't suppose you'd agree with that as you don't think Blair's a liar, so presumably you believe everything he's said about the war. :rolleyes:

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Lol somebody else I told about it said that EXACT same thing!Lol. :)
Yes H\borough. He was a proper mess, has never worked since. Lost his father in it. Not sure why Ms Martyr here decided it was a good idea to get involved, nobody to blame but myself! I won't go into it heavily unless anybody wants to know but he wasn't right, I suffered a lot due to it. Perhaps I should claim to have PTSD myself :p (I'm joking).

It's as if the disaster isn't the acutal disaster. The disaster is, the means of 'covering it up', the blaming those who had no control. I know from the aforementioned dullard I dated, that the campaigning etc,and the issues people could not come to terms with, were focused on the authorities and their lack of sympathy, scapegoating, rather than the happenings thsmselves.
I brought 'The Sun' home by mistake once. I used to work in a club where newspapers were chucked out at the end of the day and I used to take them all home to read and then use to line the animal cages. When I got back, the room had been ransacked-Mr Hillsborough had found the paper and destroyed it, along with everything else in its path...:o

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Who was responsible for the Heyshel killings? No doubt about that one....at least a dozen
scousers banged up for manslaughter as I recall and all English clubs slung out of Europe.

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i think anger is one of the stages of grief, and in "normal" circumstances that stage has its own natural progression, however when a disaster on this scale, and the victims families perception of justice isnt reached, there cannot be complete closure, and some individuals never really escape from the anger stage, or as often the guilt stage too

sugermouse, did he display outbursts of guilt as he would anger?

and as a side note, if he was at hillsbrough he was too old for ya anyways, :P

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First paragraph, totally agree.
Well yes, he did-feeling guilty that he remained alive afterwards when his father didn't, also his father hadn't wanted to go for some reason, so he felt his father would have been spared had he listened to him. I know I would find that difficult, I have a guilt complex myself.
However, he was so, so horrible that toward the end sympathy was not there. I am no psychologist, but the way he was behaving, I have to say was unacceptable-trauma or not. It takes something such as this discussion for me to remember that I am still affected by the experience with him.
Ha!Do you even know my age?

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I'd support anything that brings out the truth. If that leads to Blair being brought to trial, then so be it. I'm no supporter of Blair - I was questioning how intelligent he really was, or whether he was just happy to play lapdog to the war mongering of Bush.

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What has that got to do remotely with Hillsborough?

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused:

And please don't say "Both involved Liverpool fans". That would be pathetic.

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elementary, about the age!
the clues are there, unless he was a small boy at the time
you are possibly late twenties early thirties , so will pop for dead on 30, this july?

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You also said "he wasn't a liar" so obviously you believe all the justifications he made for declaring war. So, from your point of view, there'd be no point in having an enquiry or trial. I would say that the vast majority of folk would disagree with you. This is why Mancie is making the assertation that "Thatcher and her ilk" are "killers". To draw attention away from the fact that the party he supports have a possible war criminal in their midst.

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So you will get your inquiry and war trial, and you can say I was proved wrong.

Just one thing. It is over 5 years since Blair left office. Why has it not happened yet?

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I guess he looked at your profile, followed your tumblr link and found out from links on there.

30 was a good guess if you posted your correct age :rolleyes:

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Because both major parties don't want it to.

Cabinet Iraq papers to remain secret - Telegraph

The real truth behind the invasion would implicate Bush and damage our relations with the yanks, which neither party wants. No matter, most people in the UK, apart from you, know that Blair was being "economical with the truth" over Iraq, just as he was with so many other things.

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Maybe :) I don't know if my current aged is displayed anywhere, I'm not precious about it just can't remember what links are on there and what's on them.
I don't understand the second sentence at all?What do you mean please?

He was about 19 years older than me. He's moved abroad now which I am happy about!

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That's par for the course Wyn, they all cover each others back's think its called I'll scratch your back you scratch mine

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My original thought was that the Tories would love to see Blair tried as a war criminal. But when you think about it, the stain on this country's reputation from having an ex-PM found guilty as a war criminal would be huge. What's more, if it was proved that the UK fought an illegal war against Iraq, we'd be liable for huge war reparations which would come from the taxpayer.

Hmmm...Gynn, you're right! That Tony Blair...straight as a die! ;)

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It only means that your age is shown as 30 in one of your links so it was a good guess by him unless he looked at your profile

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Ah is it. Okay, it was mainly the 'eyeroll' that confused me, didn't know what you were getting at. :)

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I hope you had your fingers crossed when to typed that Wyn:rolleyes:

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From what I saw on TV at the time, I certainly would lay the blame firmly on the home team organisers, their policing by what looked like riot police and their home fans. Not only were the home fans throwing missiles into the visitors "pen" causing most of them to move away with disastrous results the riot police themselves went into that pen and used their batons on anyone who had the misfortune to be in arms length. What absolutely surprised me was the police didn't appear bothered by the fact that a home fan was waving a pistol about!!

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And that has what to do with this discussion?

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Errr....people getting crushed to death at football matches involving Liverpool FC.........

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wasnt that a wall collapsing, that caused majority of the deaths?

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The wall collapsed because Italian fans were crushed against it and that was because the Liverpool fans had charged them. O.K....you can argue that if it had have been any others than Italians they would have stood their ground...but who knows? I have not seen an 'independent' report twenty five years after the event to place blame on one set of people.

Re: hillsborough disaster
 

Talk us through this one, Tealeaf.

Talk us through the exact connection between Hillsborough and Heysel.

We are waiting......................

So far, the only thing you've come up with is both involved Liverpool fans.

Tell us more..............................

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Tealeaf is about to take the stage....................

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Eh? What other connection do you want?

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...to tell us why Hillsborough and Heysel are linked.

We are intrigued.

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Don't forget Gynn, there is also the connection od three sinister men in black at both tragedies, one with a whistle and two with brightly coloured flags. Perhaps there's some mileage there?


Or perhaps it's just the way that authorities treated all football crowds like animals to be herded in the 70's and 80's and some responded accordingly? I know that some needed close marshalling, but crowd control should never override crowd safety.:(

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If only it came true, my faith in natural justice would be restored.

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Same here,
Hilsbrough was a disaster waiting to happen.

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There is so much blame and so many people to attach it to.
The football hooligans are possibly the root cause - if there is any single cause. They - and they were from many clubs, not just the top tier either, although they got the most publicity, but the rampaging gangs resulted in the fencing in of grounds. Was the design of the fencing flawed? quite possibly. Did the police and ground management have any experience/training in control and reaction? Were the police, ambulance, medical etc reports audited? Should the then government have held a more in-depth inquiry? probably. Did the successive governments do anything to resolve the situation - Straw, as Home Secretary initiated a scrutiny of the documentation but states "it did not get very far" - why did it not? Later he quarantined 10 boxes if documentation.
As much as I dislike Liverpool FC, my thoughts for the victims, their families and many other people who suffered as a result of this catastrophe, are sincere heart felt commiserations.
For those who falsified and tampered with evidence, and made stupid heartless comments, then only prosecution will suffice - at the very least - Perverting the Course of Justice.

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Aint being funny, but as it was a Cup Semi-Final, How was there any Home Fans yon?:confused:

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As I see it the only thing that really matters is that 96 people went to a football match and never returned home. The Police opened a door to let people in, there wasn't sufficient stewards to stop everyone going into the middle pens, fencing stopped people escaping on a ground that didnt have a safety. The guy in charge seemed to freeze, the police refused to let ambulances in then ordered 164 statements to be changed and checked blood alcohol levels of all victims evern the 10 year old and performed criminal records checks which is absolutely disgusting. 41 families, who were previously told there relatives would have died quickly are now being told that if the reactions of the emergency services had been better some if not all could have been saved. This is the most shocking thing to come out this week. It was an accident waiting to happen as there had been problems the year before and in 1981 and no doubt several other occasions. It's not really relevent which team it was people going to any football match should be able to watch it and then return home safely.

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Think that's why all seater stadia were introduced, could happen today which is a blessing