Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

A teacher has been sacked by the school for pinning a 16 year old boy down after he threw a milkshake at the teacher. Moments later the boy hurled a chair...

Teacher fired for grabbing student who threw milkshake over him - Telegraph

What a disgrace! :mad::(

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

It is a disgrace n highlights once again the namby pamby society,created by do-gooders.:mad::rolleyes:

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

A good example of what is wrong with schools and why kids leave school and enter the real world thinking they can do whatever they please.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Nailed it in one.;)

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Hit the nail on the head Mr super Mod ;)

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What happened to the ear-lobe lift? :eek:;)

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Think it got renamed common assault ;)

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

A sign of everybody else knowing best how to instil some discipline into children. There are no consequences for any actions thanks to the "we know best brigade" and things are never going to get better because some children have no concept of the word "respect"

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Agree.
:rolleyes:

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On the other hand, there was one particular history teacher who used to beat me almost every lesson, nothing was ever said, and it didn't do me any good! I was and still am the same pain inthe rear

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Come, come, churchfcrules, I'm sure no one else on here thinks that!

I hate to think what would have happened to me if I'd done that to a teacher. The thing is we would never have dreamt of doing that- we knew the rules, we knew the limits. So strong punishment was never needed.
Now there are no rules, no limits. Only children's rights.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Another example of the madness that is Britain today...

Young offender's curfew changed so he can smoke - Telegraph

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

I thought we were trying to stop people smoking? And the curfew ends on 31 October! What happened to self control? Grrrr!

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Thing is, bud, when they enter the real world they can do whatever they please. Howver, there are real consequences in the real world. If you throw a milkshake at someone in that real world, the victim of your attack is quite likely to kick your teeth so far down your throat you'll have to stick your toothbrush up your ass in order to clean them.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

More than likely Eric, But who would be most likely to face prosecution? Thats exactly whats wrong wi the world today.;)

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

That's another thing I don't understand about "the world today" ... what happened to letting a couple of guys sort out any problems they have in the good old fashioned way. No cops; no charges; no problem:D Well, nothing that a few stitches can't fix.;)

Ah well, back to watching the baseball ... Cards are four up on the Nationals in the top of the fourth:theband: But no doubt you guys are all glued to the screen watching the action;):D, and all you Nat fans are worried about the weakness in the bull pen.:rolleyes:

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Theres loads of our generation don't understand whats happening in world today eric, It defys logic to me.:mad:

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

I'm not saying I agree with what this young person did to his teacher. But if you decide to make a career for yourself working with young people this is the way things work:
Any professional working with young people may not use any form of physical restraint unless they are trained to restrain safely using recognised techniques. It should never be used by one professional in isolation.
Restraint can only be used as a last resort in order to protect either the young person or others from harm. It cannot be used as a punishment or in retaliation.
I fully understand the frustration and anger this teacher must have felt when faced with a disruptive pupil who had thrown milkshake over him. He would have been better dealing with the pupil by removing him from the scene and going through the correct channels, but I expected he reacted instinctively, which is an absolute no - no in such a situation.
The teacher would be fully aware of what he should and should not do when dealing with a disruptive pupil, and whilst I can see the situation from his point of view, his experience and professionalism should have led him to take a different course of action - he now faces the consequences of his own inappropriate behaviour.
And under no circumstances do I condone the actions of the pupil whose behaviour was completely unacceptable - but in this situation the teacher was a professional adult, the pupil was a child.
Some people may say that children and young people today lack discipline and respect and in a lot of ways I agree, but if such behaviour by teachers was allowed, a lot of vulnerable children and young people who deserve more would be at the mercy of professionals who would be free to treat them with aggression for the least misdemeanour.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Its the plain fact that all disciplinary methods have been removed that situations like this arise in my view, Thats why there is no respect fer teachers,no other reason.Whilst yer not saying you agree with the pupils action Anne, yer laying the blame at the wrong door, Which in my mind makes you one of those reasons were in situations like this.:rolleyes:

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

On a personal level I think the lad deserved what happened to him and probably more, and had the threat of the cane been present he most probably wouldn't have done what he did!
But on a professional level I know that's not an option and even though I think the teacher has snapped (with some justification) he must have known that he would have been likely to have been sacked for acting as he did. I'm not saying I agree with the way things are for people working with young people, but I was pointing out how it is, and the fact that all workers are aware of the rules which they should follow when using restraint.

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Well with respect its people on a professional level, that should be banging the drum to get things changed, not siding with stupidity. Cos they will never listen to oiks.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Sad, but true:(

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Maybe you could consider that there is only one level ... your 2 levels allow you to swallow your personal principles. I think it is on a level of personal principle that we should act.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

I don't personally know what the answer is to this one, I don't see the benefit of bringing back the cane, I think that corporal punishment is open to far too much abuse, but I do think there is too much blurring of the lines between pupil and teacher or other adult working with them generally, where they are seen as mates to be treated equally rather than with respect.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

egg&chips, I'm guessing you are a teacher so you see things from the inside.
Can you tell us what teachers in general(not necessarily your own opinion) feel about the problems of discipline in schools? How would they like things to change? Are they restrained by rules they don't agree with?

I understand if you don't feel you can comment.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

At Moorhead 89-94 we had an art teacher named Mr Williamson. He was a bully. The stories I have heard are horrendous. I posted on a forum about schools and read many things that he has done or accused of. He made boys kneel on pencils. Made boys kneel on hot pipes leading to radiator. Held a lads head in the slop bucket in the clay room several times.... list goes on.

My experience with him was this; He was shouting at me about my Art. I was scared and replied "I can't draw" he picked me up by my ear and twisted and and held it t and said something about talking back to him. Held it like that for well over a minute. Do I respect him? Do I hell. If I saw him now I don't know what I would do. I am not really a violent person. But thinking of him makes me angry and sad that a piece of garbage like him was a teacher.

There was many teachers at Moorhead that was stern and wouldn't take any crap; that I looked up to and respected and do still to this day.

On the other hand. For many lessons I was placed in a class with not so good kids. We had an English teacher Miss Elliot that asked a lad once to open to page10 and he said "f off ya b" and this would happen everytime. She would run out of the class crying. A few of the lads was like this. We ended up with a stand in teacher that made us copy text out of books.

One lad I read that he is now a heroin addict and is in prison. Go figure

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Just finished reading "The Oxford Book of Schooldays" by Patricia Craig ... a good read. One critic, John Mortimer, commented: " ... a book essential to any true understanding of the English character." Perhaps the English character he is talking about is no longer with us.

I'll have to give that some thought ... I'm watching baseball ... bottom of the 8th, Cards leading 8 to zip ... and have just poured my fourth Bomber and fired up a joint ... this trend towards alcoholism and drug abuse I lay at the door of Mr. Butcher, art teacher, who had me copying out immense chunks of the "Listener" when I could have been out playing football.:eek: Go figure, eh:rolleyes:

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

at what age does a child become an adult ....

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Well, with me, it obviously ain't happened yet:theband: "Sometime soon" ain't lookin' all that good either;):D

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Straight from the Health and Social care handbook :)

A reasonable instinctive reaction although frowned upon should not lead to a sacking, a slap on the wrist, sent for further training perhaps, but most definitely not removal from the job. This is not how safeguarding legislation is meant to be used. (In fact if anyone is at fault it's the school, for not providing restraint training, or enough staff to cope with this kind of eventuality, because the pupil was attempting to cause harm. I'd love to see their risk assessment for dinner times in the canteen)

It's this kind of typical over-reaction by pen pushers who are not on the front lines, just like the school H&S pen pushers who ban conkers and marbles, which is not what Health and Safety legislation is about either.

It's not the legislation that's wrong, its the dipsticks who interpret it through the fear of coffin chasing solicitors and redtop rag headlines who are slowly leading us to anarchy.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

If Guinness was leading a political party, I'd vote for it! Karma sent. ;)

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

i remember Mr Williamson reminds me of lanky magnum pi lol i had a similar experiance when drawing that giant cheese plant(you know the1), he picked me up with both ears and stood me in the bin for back chatting he was also deadly with the old chalk duster as i remember.like you say There was many teachers at Moorhead that was stern and wouldn't take any crap Mc hale and green spring to mind but they was'nt a bully like magnum ;)

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Yeh, he does have a point. As far as I remember, health and safety concerns started with the unions in the factories and pits of industrial Britain. An honourable genesis. Just seems like it got outa hand ... or some bureaucratic assholes with just too much free time on their hands etc., etc., etc.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

yeah hehe. Thinking about it he did.

There was another art teacher. Woman with ginger hair. She was often seen with 'magnum' she was always horrible with me. "why is your work always horrible and disgusting" was one of the things she said to me. Why did they not understand that I am useless at drawing; hell I am useless at writing with a pen.

I think I get that from my mother. She said when she was at school she was caned for "not being able to write"

I think corporal punishment is abhorrent; I think its disgusting to have allowed anybody else other than the parents discipline a child in that manner. The lack of it isn't the reason why children do things like the milkshake incident. (IMHO) Perhaps teachers are just not prepared to deal with the children that today's broken homes produce.

It made way for people like Williamson to abuse children. When it was abolished teachers like him just couldn't let it go. I wish I had said something to my parents. But he scared me. Some will say that is good and that it made me 'respect him' Those two teachers remind me of MargaretR's "physic vampires"


Yeah. Teachers like McHale is the 100% reason why corporal punishment is non productive.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

It is a tricky one and I wouldn't presume to speak for others in general, but would say that some definitely, and I suspect many, despair at the state of discipline in schools. However I don't think that it's just an issue in schools but is endemic in society, magnified in schools because of the concentration of disaffected youth there. Perhaps the factor that has changed most since I was at school and even since I started teaching about fourteen years I ago is the involvement and attitude of a growing number of parents. Too many abdicate responsibility for their kids or simply don't have the skills to parent them properly, a major factor in my school being the lack of a positive father figure in the home. I'm not saying that a return to the social stability of yesteryear's families would be a magic cure, but it wouldn't hurt. Family with five kids, three absentee fathers and a mum who is in her twenties and still acts like a seventeen year old = potential behaviour problems. Anyone who watched the 999 what's your emergency? programme re kids in Blackpool episode will know what I mean.
Changes? I wouldn't want a change back to corporal punishment, there are far too many flashpoint incidents where a physical response would be inappropriate and dangerous for all involved. I do find it objectionable that schools who choose to exclude children are penalised as a result however via OFSTED and local authority investigation / interference. It's a bit like a policeman managing to safely arrest detain and secure the conviction of a number of criminals who assaulted them being reprimanded for their actions and trained to modify their behaviour in order not to get attacked in future.
I'm afraid that one result of this increasingly distressing situation that only the most dedicated and self sacrificing of decent teachers will stay in schools where behaviour is a major issue. Such places face the prospect of becoming "sink" schools, especially when academies are allowed to select their intake and are not answerable to a local authority for many of their actions. I used to think that I was in the right place and was making a bit of a difference, but seeing more and more past pupils turning up in court for serious offences including murder makes me wonder if all I, and my colleagues are doing is shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic:(.
Going in now to see if there's any sense to be made of a fight between a non English speaking girl recently arrived as a war refugee (you should see her drawings:eek:) and an autistic child, after school, both of whose guardians did not materialise to ensure their safe journey from school to home. Whoop blinking ee.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Violent bully, I totally agree. Still get het up thinking of him belting me with a desk lid on the back of the head without warning because he took offence at my posture whilst reading during a break between mock o levels in 1978.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

There are violent bullies in every walk of life,including teachers,to me weeding people like them out is a separate issue, n little to do wi kids having respect n discipline.:)

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Not sure which academy you are talking about but maybe you should read the admission policy. I have posted it below from their website

Here is a link to the full admissions details Applying to Accrington Academy | Accrington Academy | ULT

After reading that have a look where the school is and tell me if you still think they are cherry picking pupils.

If you want to talk about a local school and pupil selection then you should look at St Christophers. They do select the pupils they want based on church attendance though and not individual ability.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Interesting point of view.
I work with a chap who believes we are breading a generation of idiots. If you want to know what he means subject yourself to the daytime punishment TV called Jeremy Kyle and you will understand what he means.

His solution is that everyone should take an IQ test as they enter secondary school. Fail 3 times and your sterilized to prevent you breeding more idiots.

I think his views are a little extreme but if I watched enough Jeremy Kyle I could probably be persuaded to his way of thinking.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Anne you say that he would have been better dealing with the pupil by removing him from the room! But you also say that no teacher should be able to restrain a pupil without training - well how does one remove a pupil without making physical contact? So your contradicting yourself!

Also what about the human element - you get a milkshake thrown over you then possibly anticipated further attack - the response then is to protect yourself.

Also there was no complaint made by the pupil. This was all the doing of the school authorities.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

She is not contradicting herself at all. There is a difference between physical restraint and firmly guiding someone from a room. And she also stated that he reacted instictively.

Anne is simply paraphrasing guidelines, interpreted from a law, by a pen pusher, that people in schools, healthcare and even the police are supposed to follow.

As for the teachers, of whom in my opinion there are few...they have a poor system to work with, it's a 'give me a child at 7 and I'll turn him into an automaton' system full of curriculae and standards. This guy tells it like it is in a very amusing and watchable way.

Sir Ken Robinson: Do schools kill creativity? - YouTube

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

A thought provoking response, thanks egg&chips. You have made me think again about writing all teachers off as the same.
However, I do think teachers in general have brought this situation on themselves to an extent.
During and after WW2 our fathers were all away in the forces and many of our mothers were working. There were some really wild, uncontrolled kids about.
However- school was a different ballgame! Rules of behaviour applied and you broke them at your peril(although I never saw the terrible bullying listed above). The teachers dressed smartly, you called them 'sir' or 'Mr/Miss' and they called you by your surname. They weren't your friends, they were your teachers!
Now, if you go in a sixth form collage you can't tell the teachers from the students, they're all dress the same(as sloppily?) and on first name terms. How can the teachers expect to be treat with respect- they're just one of the gang. And teenagers are naturally testers of boundaries and won't let someone take over and set rules for their gang unless they recognise them as separate and dominant.
I couldn't do a teachers job now, I'd soon be in court. I don't see how teachers can ever retake control of their schools either.

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Dare I say anything? Naaah... :D

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

This sounds like it is based on sound, principled, service based doctrines, as all such admission policies should be. I don't know the school, so cannot comment on how well the practice is carried out, but fully endorse its ethics
:mosher:

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

I find it hard to argue with your friend's viewpoint, though I feel his solution may be difficult to swallow for even the most strident of Daily Fail readers. What I would add to his argument is that the idiot box also breeds a generation of isolated idiots who can watch tv tailored to their own preferences 24/7 in whatever language/ cultural or ethnic slot they feel most comfortable. Hence a dissociation from their majority peers for many of our minorities and an increase in misunderstandings, failure to comprehend and tension for a generation of kids who are becoming increasingly distanced not only from the generation in administration but from any kind of cohesive youth culture. No belonging too often means no empathy and no reason to respect concepts and ideologies inherent in society in general but totally alien to them.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

You are probably right Gordon. I think some kind of social revolution would be necessary to make meaningful and useful change. I suspect that this is unlikely to happen.
I fully recommend a book written by Peter Pook, possibly Britain's funniest neglected writer called The Teacher's HandPook, in which it is reflected that the single most prominent reason for teachers failing to commend respect is their inappropriate dress code.
On the other hand I also find that respect is a quality that is unlikely to be offered up by individuals who do not recognise it as something which anyone, least of all themselves is actually due.
Sorry to be pessimistic

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

I am relaying correct safeguarding procedures with regard to use of restraint, not giving my own personal definition. And as for the fact that no complaint was made, again safeguarding procedures would expect that any inappropriate behaviour should be investigated regardless of whether a complaint had been made. The school authority had a duty to investigate through the correct safeguarding channels (safeguarding used to be known as child protection).
As for removing the pupil from the classroom, if he refused to leave when told, then the teacher should have called for assistance immediately.
And I agree about the human element and reacting instinctively - I work with some violent and dangerous young people who can test the patience to say the least. I have had extensive training in avoiding and managing disruptive behaviour and risk managing situations. I would say that the main criteria is to keep yourself physically safe whilst ensuring the safety of the young person and others present - for the adult to involve themselves in a physical altercation could well escalate the situation and significantly increase the risk.

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The kids assaulted the teacher who defended himself from what he thought was going to be a more serious assault. The kids then threw a chair at him which proves he was right. The kid should be dealt with by the police. The headteacher should be sacked. The school governor's who sacked him are incompetent and should be replaced immediately.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

I can go wi that no problem.

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Neil for prime minister. With common sense like that you can't go wrong. :D:D

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Bear in mind that school governors are unpaid and (for most schools) it's very hard to attract candidates to fill the posts.

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I know that but what chance have we of sorting out the problems in schools if we allow people who think the teacher was wrong to run our schools?

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

And therein lies the problem in this particular safeguarding case, people without training and nous are interpreting laws and screwing up...

Anne's post is wholly correct, internal investigation is the first step and safeguarding are made aware of the circumstances and that an investigation is underway. In this particular instance I have no doubt that the safeguarding team would have accepted that the teacher was sent for training and given a wrist slap as a suitable response and would have closed the file.

The school and governors on the other hand do need investigating by Ofsted. e.g. Was suitable training given? Was there a risk assessment in place to ensure the safety of teachers in a canteen? What safeguarding investigation training have the governers had?

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I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but (broadly speaking) what if the mentality which makes someone think that this teacher's actions were wrong is the same mentality which makes someone volunteer to be a governor?

Why do we even need governors? They seem to be inserted into the hierarchy of paid employees which starts at the teacher and ends at the secretary of state for education.

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You're quoting 'Correct safeguarding procedures', Ann. Do you agree with them or are they imposed on you against your better judgement?
More important, how many of these young persons have you converted to a better way of life and behaviour? And how many have ridden over you roughshod?

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Another thought(ran out of edit time)- the adults with 'extensive training in avoiding and managing disruptive behaviour and risk managing situations' may survive unharmed, they're trained for it. But the same can't be said for the many other young people who come up against these out of control young persons-they're the ones who will suffer.

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As for your postscript post..the young people would not come up against out of control young persons if it hadn't been allowed to escalate to that point in the first place.

I'll say it again, nothing wrong with the principles of safeguarding, it's how they are interpreted by the untrained that's the problem.

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I'm really sorry for being controversial and I'm not even saying that I agree with everything I'm saying, I'm just telling people the way things are for people working with young people.
Professionals need to be protected in their work, and given the escalating number of young people who are out of control (I don't work in education but have many links to people who do) I honestly don't know what the answer is.
I've previously for many years worked in and managed residential child care services, working with some very damaged children, in my current job I've had a police marker on my address in case of emergency from repercussions for my actions. I've also worked with a psychologist specialising in behavioural problems in young people, and from my knowledge and experience maybe the answer is to avoid confrontation whilst addressing the issues which contribute to the behaviour. However this is no answer to the situation the teacher in question found himself in - no doubt properly trained people may have been able to avoid the situation, but teachers - in my opinion - do not necessarily receive the correct training to equip them to deal with seriously disruptive pupils - after all their remit is to teach and impart knowledge.

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Don't apologise..You're not being controversial, you're being factual. Your experience at the sharp end has given you some insights that others don't immediately see until they are given an alternative view to consider.

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Thanks Guiness, but I completely realise I'm giving the corporate line with no consideration for the person doing the job and putting up with the flack they receive - unfortunately that's the way it is. My main concern as is the vast majority of people working with children and young people is to achieve the best outcome for them possible, although given the outside influences including family, peers and lifestyle it's extremely difficult.

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I'm afraid I'm turning into a bore here, but I really am passionate about achieving good outcomes for disadvantaged children who all deserve better than what they have. I see so many young people who have tremendous potential who have been let down by their life chances, who I would love to take home and nurture - unfortunately of course this is not possible.
This is why the teacher in question should be offering more than what he did to his disruptive pupil, he probably lived up - or down - to the young person's expectations of him and the response he would get from his behaviour generally, and reinforce the idea he had of what was expected of him.

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Just cos its corporate line, don't make it right.;)

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I fully empathise with your first paragraph Anne, but question whether anyone has the right to judge the actions of the teacher in question without knowing the full circumstances of the case.
After reading your previous posts, I suspect that you know as well as I do that you can work on building a relationship with some children for a long time and make remarkable advances through difficult circumstances only for all that effort to be undone by the actions of a third party in a few moments. We don't know exactly what happened and should maybe consider that before condemning said teacher for hat he did or did not offer?

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Yes I fully agree with you, we don't know the full story, I started by trying to explain procedures and I wouldn't condemn the teacher involved who it seems was not able to manage the situation himself and needed assistance, and of course when you think about it, it only takes a second of bad decision making and losing control to wreck your career.

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You assumed he is from a dysfunctional family when it could just be he is a bad kid. Anyone who throws a chair at someone in school should be excluded, permanently. The stupid idiot could have killed someone.

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Yes he should have been excluded but would have gone to a short stay school before going to a school for young people with behavioural problems, our local one is in Oswaldtwistle.

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The story does not mention any punishment for the kid so I assume there was non.

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I would think there would have been a consequence but we don't know, and it's also a case of whether the consequence would have made a positive difference to the young person's life and behaviour.

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Oh come on, hon. A "second of bad ... career" ... Ok, if you are an airline pilot (Hi, BG:D) or a cardiac surgeon, or a burglar I can see it. But to wreck your career as a teacher, it should take more than what happened. If you waste half your class with a Glock, or, on a more serious note, cause significant emotional or psychological damage ... now, that should wreck a career. But this ... it's a mere storm in a milkshake.

Of course, there was the recent case of a teacher in Edmonton, Alberta who was fired for giving students zeros for missed assignments.:rolleyes: Fortunately, he got a better job at a school which still believes that, while students can succeed by putting in some effort, failure is always an option.

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I completely disagree with you, how do you know that by your behaviour in the position of authority as a teacher you are not having a devastating effect on peoples lives?
It is not a storm in a milkshake. Like I keep saying, I fully understand the frustration of the teacher - this was perhaps the trigger point to a long string of stuff - but the adult professional cannot behave in such a manner.
Think about the long history of child abuse cases - the most recent in the news being the Victoria Climbie case, the Baby P case and even more recently the sexual exploitation cases in Rochdale where professionals have turned a blind eye. What is the answer? You turn a blind eye to everything or you investigate everything - I would prefer the latter in order to safeguard our children and young people.
So to me, if a teacher (or any other professional in a position of trust) behaves in an unacceptable manner for whatever reason, the case should be investigated in order to protect the vast majority of young people in our society. And also as I've said before the professional adult knows their remit and should abide by what is expected of them. If you work with young people from birth to eighteen years your main priority should be to protect them and achieve best outcomes. If this means someone throwing a milkshake at you then perhaps you should look at what led to that happening and perhaps change your own behaviour accordingly whilst addressing the unacceptable behaviour of the young person which must have been apparent previously. Perhaps my comments seem hard but I stand by them, having been in my profession for nearly thirty years. I have every sympathy for the teacher, and perhaps the systems and culture of the school should be investigated, it could be that in this case the staff may not have been adequately protected or trained to deal with disruptive pupils.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Sorry Gordon I haven't responded to you properly. I do agree with current safeguarding procedures even though they can be very frustrating. There should never be a need for physical altercation between adults and young people. I don't think I can answer your question fully on Accyweb, it would take far too much space! In brief, think about young people who have a cXXp life with their parent or parents who are wholly inadequate, probably drug users and have never worked, and for whom criminality is the norm. They have no positive role models, no extended family and know nothing better than the behaviour they display which they have learnt from their background. They need positive adults who can show them an alternative way of life which will be of benefit to them and to their future generations.
From my experience I can say that there are very few people who I have been able to influence, but the ones I have I consider to be successes - my aim is to implant seeds into their heads which they may think of in years to come. I think I've said previously that I often want to take them home and care for them, but obviously its not an option!

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Teachers have been in a position of authority for a couple of hundred years, can't recall a single instance of a criminal citing a teacher to blame, or of a single person saying that a teacher devastated their life.

You cannot equate the serious case reviews of Baby P and Victoria Climbie, (they were combined multiple failures of parenting, healthcare professionals, the police and god awful communication between departments), with a teacher who through poor training or instinctiveness holds a pupils hands down.

The teacher/pupil relationship should work both ways, with mutual respect, unfortunately some kids just ain't interested. They are more up to speed with what teachers can and cannot do thanks to the internet and social media, and being kids they push, push, push to the edge. Teachers cannot adapt to a typical teenagers behaviour because your typical teenager changes their behaviour constantly.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Well put Anne. I don't think that conversion is possible. At the end of the day everyone with sufficient brainpower and more importantly the will to resist peer pressure makes their own decisions for good or ill. If they are unaware that there is a better, more reasoned way to act, then they are highly unlikely to choose it. A case in point from my own experience concerns two boys, best friends from age 6or7 with serious criminal role models in their immediate family, one now a professional footballer, the other an entrepreneur dealing in illicit substances. I don't say that school made either of them choose the path they took, but hopefully it helped one of them to see that right choices can bring their own reward.

That makes me sound airy-fairy. I'm not. One of his classmates punched a guy in the throat, which resulted in his death after hospital treatment failed. He then burgled the guy's house and was put away in H.M. Hotel aged 16 for some considerable time. Did all the reasonable input that he got at the schools he attended do any good? Definitely not.
Some are born broken, others sink to brokenness due to their circumstances whilst still more choose to be broken. Allowing kids access to a way that they might be mended is a slim glimmer of hope that a few might catch onto.
Great now I sound like a vicar!:rolleyes:

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

I think you are right and wrong at the same time here Guiness. Certainly teenagers like anyone else will use the system as much as they can to gain from it, and someone simply holding a kid's hands down should not be fired. However teachers are people and can be as evil, cracked and damaged as anyone else, so can certainly have a detrimental effect on those they teach.
As for anyone alleging that a teacher devastated their life, it does not take a lot of searching to find such claims. Whether they are true or false is another matter. Take this for example.
Bad Teacher Ruined What Could Have Been My Life? : I Have Been Emotional Abused Story & Experience

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

It should Eric, but it might not, especially if the Head wants rid of said teacher anyway, or is not convinced that they are right for the job they are doing. It has been known for some people in all sorts of walks of life to be put into a position that their bosses know that they will not cope with in order to shorten their lifespan in the organisation. I' m not saying that this is what happened here and I' m definitely not saying that it's right, but I suspect that many of us can think back to a time in our working lives where such a thing has happened. Life can truly suck, I think you'll agree?

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

If it could be the case then the system has let both the pupil and the teacher down and rather than correct their mistakes they used the teacher as a scapegoat for their own shortcomings surely?

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Anne, I appreciate your honesty in putting forward your opinions but I believe you are so, so wrong.
You have been in your career 30 years. To me your views totally reflect the all pervasive political correctness which is pulling our society down.
A child's rights don't come first, to the exclusion of all common sanity- the rights of the society we live in,our way of civilised life, come first.
The weakness of your arguments are shown when you start bringing up Child P and Victoria Climbie- acts of sheer wickedness by adults against harmless small children. You bracket a teacher who has a milk shake thrown over him and stops a teenager(probably as big as him) from throwing a chair at him without causing him any physical harm with them- you insult that teacher.
As I said, when I was young there were plenty of wild kids about, some had never seen their fathers and when they came home from the war the boys resented the father figure imposed on them for the first time and reacted badly.
However, whatever the problems at home we all knew the rules in school existed and would be imposed and respected. Now we have a different set of rules-children are supreme even if they are uncontrolled anarchists. What do you think happens to general discipline in a school where a teacher is suspended, perhaps fired, for trying to control a teenager without even harming him? The boy becomes a hero to his peers, the remaining teachers must be totally castrated.
You accept there are very few people you have been able to influence- once whole schools of teenagers were influenced to accept good behaviour, discipline, respect, even if they didn't particularly enjoy school.
Therefore your system,imposed on you or gladly practised, is a failure and our teenagers are growing up paying the price.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Spot on Gordon.;)

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

The man makes a valid & balanced counter argument & I'd sooner go with his version than yours Anne, maybe it's just an age/upbringing related aspect ?

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Me too.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Well said Gordon, great post

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Hey ... I can agree with this ... and I taught for a long time too. I have taught at every level from kindergarten to graduate school. I particularly agree that the system is failing: it's failing teachers, students, and society. And all the pc bs going on in schools, and in society in general, is the major cause of this failure. It's ironic that we can't allow students to fail, but seem blind to the fact that the whole system is failing. The system (and I don't like to think of education as a "system"; but that's a whole 'nother argument) treats kids as fragile, sensitive, and susceptible to psychological and emotional damage. Wrong. They are wiley, manipulative, and cruel to their teachers and to their peers. They need discipline. I'm not talking Dr. Richard Busby discipline here, but firm guidelines, reasonable consequences for anti-social behavior. Rather than express concern about the reasonable actions of a teacher faced with a violent teen, we should be attempting to solve the problems surrounding bullying, especially cyber-bullying. These fragile, impressionable, sensitive little darlings are driving some of their more vulnerable peers to suicide while society worries about the potential dangers of conkers.:rolleyes:

B.C. teen's suicide nets hundreds of tips to police - British Columbia - CBC News


For some reason, I find this far more troubling than some stressed out teacher using minimal physical restraint on some violent, out of control asshole teen moron.

Re: Sir! Would you like a milkshake?
 

Yeah, some of our tabloids are running links to it too mate..tragic

Amanda Todd's Story: Struggling, Bullying, Suicide, Self Harm - YouTube