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gynn 05-03-2013 05:46
The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
An 87 year old woman has died in a nursing home in California, after a nurse refused to give her CPR, saying it was against the home's rules for her to help the woman.

Woman Dies After Nurse Refuses To Perform CPR

Is this the inevitable result of a culture of fear instilled into employees fearful of losing their jobs if they set one foot outside tight rules and regulations..........

......or was the nurse just one callous bit*h?

I think I go for the latter. :(

Restless 05-03-2013 06:39
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
The Home issued a statement saying that the elderly woman agreed to the rules before she moved in there. She's 87 and she is in a home. She might have wanted to die.... Its California.... In my imagination it is not beyond the realms of possibility. I have heard of weird stuff such as suicide parties for people have aids and etc.

So I don't think of the nurse as being callous. I think why the hell is this rule there in the first place. I think of America being on the verge of an economical collapse and how its going down the tubes(apparently). What kind of bullcrap mess must there be in this woman's life that have forced this her to choose between rules and morality. She has to live with this decision for the rest of her life. We however get to read about it and cast our vote.

gynn 05-03-2013 06:59
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
There are a number of nurses and ex nurses on this forum, and it would be interesting to hear their views on this. Is there anything in the nurses actions that you could defend?

Margaret Pilkington 05-03-2013 07:05
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
I find your comment offensive.
This incident happened in the US....so it isn't something that obviously affects you.
You do not know the full facts of the situation(only what has been reported by the media - which is sometimes skewed for sensationalistic journalism purposes).
This elderly lady may have had an 'end stage disease' and may have had a DNR protocol attached to her notes.......DNR is Do not resuscitate.
I don't know if this was the case, but then neither do you....but you feel that you can offer a value judgement about the character of this nurse....and use derogatory terms to describe her. Uncalled for and unwarranted.
The fact that the family have not acted against the Care Home makes me believe that the nurse was doing what was in the Nursing orders.

cashman 05-03-2013 07:08
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 1045013)
There are a number of nurses and ex nurses on this forum, and it would be interesting to hear their views on this. Is there anything in the nurses actions that you could defend?
I would say it could well be a case of someone wishing to keep employment? It may seem callous, but when yeh got kids etc to feed. Its the Home Owners that should be looked at in my view, But oiks are the easiest target.:rolleyes:

Margaret Pilkington 05-03-2013 07:26
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gynn (Post 1045013)
There are a number of nurses and ex nurses on this forum, and it would be interesting to hear their views on this. Is there anything in the nurses actions that you could defend?

The rules about what nurses can and cannot do, are different in the US.
If a patient wants to have their hair washed, and expresses that desire here in the Uk the nurse would do it without blinking an eye(well, she would if she had the time)...in the US, if it isn't written up by a doctor in the nursing notes/care plan then if the nurse does it. she can personally be litigated against....now if you want to see all your assets earned over a lifetime go down the pan in an instant...then litigation is the way to go.

Gynn, you have made assumptions based on what the media story tells us....which may, or may not be the whole story.

It is true that there are some people in caring professions, who do it for one reason, and one reason only.....money....but not everyone should be lumped into this category.
That aside, you had no reason to defame the character of the nurse in question without even knowing the full facts....it would have been better had you left out the comment about her.

jaysay 05-03-2013 08:21
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1045018)
The rules about what nurses can and cannot do, are different in the US.
If a patient wants to have their hair washed, and expresses that desire here in the Uk the nurse would do it without blinking an eye(well, she would if she had the time)...in the US, if it isn't written up by a doctor in the nursing notes/care plan then if the nurse does it. she can personally be litigated against....now if you want to see all your assets earned over a lifetime go down the pan in an instant...then litigation is the way to go.

Gynn, you have made assumptions based on what the media story tells us....which may, or may not be the whole story.

It is true that there are some people in caring professions, who do it for one reason, and one reason only.....money....but not everyone should be lumped into this category.
That aside, you had no reason to defame the character of the nurse in question without even knowing the full facts....it would have been better had you left out the comment about her.
Gynn is very good at jumping the gun Margaret, but like you say, things are a lot different over here and without the full story its hard to make a judgement, howerer I have actually been in a bed next to an elderly patient with a DNR notice on the file, but it wasn't effected while he was an inpatient, sadly his obit was in the Obs around 3 weeks later

Eric 05-03-2013 12:16
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Could be a touch of "litigationitis":D

Restless 05-03-2013 16:23
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Thanks again Margaret for more great posts... Insight from the nurses!! k+ award

Eric 05-03-2013 16:34
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Just wondering if nurses in the UK feel the need to purchase malpractice insurance ... I know it's common in the US.

Malpractice Insurance For Registered Nurses/Licensed Practical Nurses | CM&F Group, Inc.

susie123 05-03-2013 17:04
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric (Post 1045100)
Just wondering if nurses in the UK feel the need to purchase malpractice insurance ... I know it's common in the US.

Malpractice Insurance For Registered Nurses/Licensed Practical Nurses | CM&F Group, Inc.
Eric, I sincerely hope not, would destroy a lot of my faith in them built up over the past year or so.

But then nothing should surprise us these days.

jaysay 05-03-2013 17:24
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric (Post 1045100)
Just wondering if nurses in the UK feel the need to purchase malpractice insurance ... I know it's common in the US.

Malpractice Insurance For Registered Nurses/Licensed Practical Nurses | CM&F Group, Inc.
Never heard of that over here Eric and I've spent more than my fair share of time in hospitals over the last 30 years, I've always had nothing but praise for the nursing staff over the years, but this time the junior doctors left a lot to be desired, not to mention a consultant too.

Margaret Pilkington 05-03-2013 17:25
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Nurses in the Uk do not purchase malpractice insurance......if they are in a union(the Royal College of Nursing is a sort of union) then they are covered to a degree......unless they perform first aid, and the person who recieves first aid comes to harm...then the nurse can be sued personally.......this is one of the reasons that I was most reluctant to give aid in an outside emergency situation.
Nurses are bad at first aid anyway...they are used to having equipment to help them.

Eric 05-03-2013 17:32
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the fear of malpractice suits has a negative impact on the US health care system ... never interested enough to read anything about it. It is not really all that surprising that a nurse would refuse, in certain cases (I'm not sure exactly which cases), to give CPR.

jaysay 05-03-2013 17:33
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1045130)
Nurses in the Uk do not purchase malpractice insurance......if they are in a union(the Royal College of Nursing is a sort of union) then they are covered to a degree......unless they perform first aid, and the person who recieves first aid comes to harm...then the nurse can be sued personally.......this is one of the reasons that I was most reluctant to give aid in an outside emergency situation.
Nurses are bad at first aid anyway...they are used to having equipment to help them.
If I was having a problem away from home I'd sooner have a qualified nurse come to my rescue than just joe public Margaret:rolleyes:

shillelagh 05-03-2013 19:35
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
i was at accy pals yesterday for an appointment ... i told her i had epilepsy .. she asked me what happened when i had a fit .. so told her i had grand mal .. the type that can jerk and i always bite my tongue .. and she asked me what to do if i had a fit ... and i said well if i fall forwards to catch me so then i dont do any damage to anything and myself .. and she then said i cant do that .. so what else do i have to do ... that is a health professional at the accy pals .. she also said can you tell me when you are going to have one .. and i said i dont know when im going to have one ... i said people can tell when im heading for one .. but i dont know ... i think i scared her ...

Margaret Pilkington 05-03-2013 19:40
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Well, John, the best first aiders are St Johns ambulance....as I said nurses are too used to having equipment to hand...that, and once you qualify, someone from the legal department comes and tells you how Joe Public can sue you to infinity.....and beyond, if you get it wrong. This really put me off going to the aid of someone in the street.
We are deemed 'responsible' because we have had training...so if your CPR doesn't work you can find yourself up in front of the beak/coroner and asked to explain what you did, why you did it, and how much experience you have had in the past in such endeavours.
So I pull my collar up and forget I know anything medical.
Maybe gynn will call me a callous B too.

lazeeboy 06-03-2013 08:06
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
I was a "First Aider" at my place of employment for 23 years. Fortunateley I never had to deal with a life-saving emergency.
Recently a friend of mine died on the golf course, two fellow players who had not had formal training gave him CPR which, when medics came, they had to ZAP him. He was luucky after 10 minutes of CPR he recovered first time. He had a stent fitted and is fine now.

Due to this accident we have now purchased a Defibrillator and members are being trained.

FIRSTLY if a person has a Cardiac arrest, That person is DEAD. Anyone who who was to stand by and do nothing is more likely to be sued for NOT HELPING. This sue for cash culture is appalling.

jaysay 06-03-2013 08:26
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shillelagh (Post 1045182)
i was at accy pals yesterday for an appointment ... i told her i had epilepsy .. she asked me what happened when i had a fit .. so told her i had grand mal .. the type that can jerk and i always bite my tongue .. and she asked me what to do if i had a fit ... and i said well if i fall forwards to catch me so then i dont do any damage to anything and myself .. and she then said i cant do that .. so what else do i have to do ... that is a health professional at the accy pals .. she also said can you tell me when you are going to have one .. and i said i dont know when im going to have one ... i said people can tell when im heading for one .. but i dont know ... i think i scared her ...
Hell Jen that must be very frightening to say the least, especially when a health professional says they can't help, I think, as a layman, that going to help another human being in distress is just human nature, seems I'm wrong when people with some medical knowledge can get the rap for trying to help:(

jaysay 06-03-2013 08:30
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazeeboy (Post 1045238)
I was a "First Aider" at my place of employment for 23 years. Fortunateley I never had to deal with a life-saving emergency.
Recently a friend of mine died on the golf course, two fellow players who had not had formal training gave him CPR which, when medics came, they had to ZAP him. He was luucky after 10 minutes of CPR he recovered first time. He had a stent fitted and is fine now.

Due to this accident we have now purchased a Defibrillator and members are being trained.

FIRSTLY if a person has a Cardiac arrest, That person is DEAD. Anyone who who was to stand by and do nothing is more likely to be sued for NOT HELPING. This sue for cash culture is appalling.
Totally agree with your last statement, which makes wonder if there are no blame accidents any more.:(

Margaret Pilkington 06-03-2013 10:31
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazeeboy (Post 1045238)
I was a "First Aider" at my place of employment for 23 years. Fortunateley I never had to deal with a life-saving emergency.
Recently a friend of mine died on the golf course, two fellow players who had not had formal training gave him CPR which, when medics came, they had to ZAP him. He was luucky after 10 minutes of CPR he recovered first time. He had a stent fitted and is fine now.

Due to this accident we have now purchased a Defibrillator and members are being trained.

FIRSTLY if a person has a Cardiac arrest, That person is DEAD. Anyone who who was to stand by and do nothing is more likely to be sued for NOT HELPING. This sue for cash culture is appalling.
No, I don't think you could be sued for not helping...especially if you hadn't a clue what to do.
The TV adverts with that footballer Vinnie are an excellent idea....but all children in schools should be taught CPR(maybe it already is).......and there are defibs now which tell you what to do if a person does need to be 'shocked'.

It is scary doing CPR...and I am speaking from the perspective of being a nurse who has been involved(in a hospital setting) a number of times.
When you have done, you shake like a leaf, whatever the outcome - or maybe that was just me. I never got 'used to it'.

Eric 06-03-2013 10:47
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1045280)
No, I don't think you could be sued for not helping...especially if you hadn't a clue what to do.
True. And in the US, you are more likely to be sued for helping than for not helping.

But even if you "hadn't a clue", doing something is the right thing to do. In Canada, if you tried to help someone in a medical emergency, and failed, the family of whoever you tried to help would probably thank you for your efforts; in the States they would sue your ass off.:rolleyes:

Margaret Pilkington 06-03-2013 13:21
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
I would seriously think twice...and the second time would be long and hard(after a look at my bank balance).
Yes it IS human nature to try and help......but not if someone is going to sue the britches off you.

shillelagh 11-03-2013 14:32
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 1045243)
Hell Jen that must be very frightening to say the least, especially when a health professional says they can't help, I think, as a layman, that going to help another human being in distress is just human nature, seems I'm wrong when people with some medical knowledge can get the rap for trying to help:(

id never sue someone for trying to help me ... and ive dropped all over the place .. im just glad that someone around me would help ... like the doctor who was on the train when i was coming down from the spugsters in january .. if it werent for him id have been kicked off the train at carlisle took to hospital and probably not released till the next day ... but because he said he'd keep an eye on me and i was getting off the train at preston and so was he .. that the ticket collector said i could stay ... :p

Margaret Pilkington 11-03-2013 14:47
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Jen, you might not sue, but that is the problem...you never know who might.
I think the situation is different for Doctors, they have their own insurance.

jaysay 11-03-2013 17:06
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 1046168)
Jen, you might not sue, but that is the problem...you never know who might.
I think the situation is different for Doctors, they have their own insurance.
Think your right there Margaret, sadly that's the sort of society we now live in now, but to think that anybody would sue anyone trying to help them is quite beyond me :(

cashman 11-03-2013 19:55
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 1046180)
Think your right there Margaret, sadly that's the sort of society we now live in now, but to think that anybody would sue anyone trying to help them is quite beyond me :(
Its beyond all decent people no question, But that don't stop it happening.:(

jaysay 12-03-2013 08:33
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1046219)
Its beyond all decent people no question, But that don't stop it happening.:(
Sadly your right cashy:(

shillelagh 14-03-2013 14:05
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
i was talking about this yesterday wi my nephew .. hes a health and safety bod ... and he turned round and said that he would never sue anyone if they were helping him .. BUT .. he does know of a case that someone collapsed wi a heart attack and his heart stopped .. a bloke who was walking past went to help him ... and gave him CPR ... while he was doing it waiting for the ambulance to arrive .. because you have to do it wi some force .. he broke his rib while giving him CPR ... this bloke recovered due to this bloke doing CPR ... and he is now suing the bloke because he broke his rib ... i couldnt believe that ... he saved his life and now hes being sued .. id just be grateful someone came to my aid ...

cashman 14-03-2013 14:11
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cashman (Post 1046219)
Its beyond all decent people no question, But that don't stop it happening.:(
Sadly jen, point proved, unsurprisingly.:eek:

Guinness 14-03-2013 15:22
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Zero people have been successfully sued in either the USA or the UK for doing CPR. In fact the Good Samaritan law protects people from lawsuits in America

You are right not to believe the story about someone suing because of a broken rib. The chances of breaking a persons rib whilst performing CPR is extremely unlikely and again is not cause for a lawsuit.

Sorry to mess the thread with facts instead of urban myths.

British Heart Foundation - Hands-only CPR FAQs

http://www.life1st.com/files/CPR-Legal_and_Ethical.pdf

jaysay 14-03-2013 17:11
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shillelagh (Post 1046760)
i was talking about this yesterday wi my nephew .. hes a health and safety bod ... and he turned round and said that he would never sue anyone if they were helping him .. BUT .. he does know of a case that someone collapsed wi a heart attack and his heart stopped .. a bloke who was walking past went to help him ... and gave him CPR ... while he was doing it waiting for the ambulance to arrive .. because you have to do it wi some force .. he broke his rib while giving him CPR ... this bloke recovered due to this bloke doing CPR ... and he is now suing the bloke because he broke his rib ... i couldnt believe that ... he saved his life and now hes being sued .. id just be grateful someone came to my aid ...
I think the ingrate would end up with more than one broken rib with some people, what a divvy:mad:

jaysay 14-03-2013 17:12
Re: The Ultimate Jobsworth?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinness (Post 1046780)
Zero people have been successfully sued in either the USA or the UK for doing CPR. In fact the Good Samaritan law protects people from lawsuits in America

You are right not to believe the story about someone suing because of a broken rib. The chances of breaking a persons rib whilst performing CPR is extremely unlikely and again is not cause for a lawsuit.

Sorry to mess the thread with facts instead of urban myths.

British Heart Foundation - Hands-only CPR FAQs

http://www.life1st.com/files/CPR-Legal_and_Ethical.pdf
Thanks for that Guinness


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