Where do you draw the line?
 

An insurgent is defined by the UN as someone who is recognised as a legitimate rebel against an established government who is not belligerent. Belligerent is defined as aggressive or warlike behaviour. To me that means an insurgent is someone who chains himself to the gates of Buckingham Palace, digs up a cricket pitch on the eve of a test match or stands in front of a tank in Tienamen Square with his arms outstretched, whilst a belligerent is someone who picks up a gun with intent to kill someone who disagrees with his ideals.

By definition a belligerent insurgent is a terrorist.

So in the case of Marine A...why has the court martial classed the wounded man as an insurgent and not as a terrorist? I see no distinction between the Taliban, UDA, IRA, Black September and this man on a battlefield carrying an AK47 and a grenade.

I'm not defending what 'marine A' did, just arguing against the way the media is playing to the Dads Army ideal 'I say Private Pike, that's just not cricket only a Nazi would do that'. The media are censoring words heard in infant playgrounds across the country but playing with glee the sound of a shot that takes a mans life.

Military experts (i.e. mercenaries), are being dragged in for their two pennorth..'it gives them a reason to fight us more fiercely', 'it gives them propaganda', 'it will make them target British soldiers'....yeah right, like these 'insurgents?' who behead people on youtube, fly planes into buildings, use cars laden with C4 driven by brainwashed acolytes into military bases and place IED's near schools and mosques, need reasons and propaganda to commit atrocities.

Blair put our guys there because he was a Bush sychophant. Cameron keeps them there because 'we are there to keep the country safe'..

Well there's a contradiction... if we are there to keep the country safe that must mean that if we were not there it would be unsafe. Logically it follows that people who make it unsafe must be people with guns and grenades..would that be people with AK47's and grenades on battlefields in Helmand..and if we shoot those people carrying AK47's and grenades (even if they are wounded) to reduce the number of flag draped coffins at Wootton Bassett (for our local indigenous insurgents to spit on and protest against)...is that wrong?

So....if this wounded 'terrorist' had survived, thanks to the skills of the British army field hospital, paid for by our taxes, could he have become the next Abu Hamza, Bin Laden, Amin or Hitler? Is the only good terrorist a dead terrorist? Should you kick a man when he is down so that he doesn't get up when your back is turned and stick you with a carving knife?

Add to this the constant stress of losing your life every time you leave the 'iffy' safety of your compound, coupled with the boredom of being forced to stay in your compound when off duty, yet still be aware of the threat of attack from 'insurgents' at any time..and all the time you are told by politicians you are 'peacekeepers'. You are the good guys!

We are the guys in white hats, only guys with black hats can do bad stuff, they can kill, maim, rape and indoctrinate kids to become human bombs...but us guys in the white hats..we have to be totally beyond reproach, St Francis of Assissi, Saul on the road to Tarsus...we have to turn the other cheek, pluck out our eyes and flagellate ourselves for the whole world to see.

When was the last time the Taliban court martialled one of their own for a beheading?

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

the second someone raises a gun towards our guys all bets are off.If he had lived and got better he would hav eonly set about trying to kill as many of our guys as he possibly could

it may not be cricket but marine A probbably saved quite a few lives putting the rat down

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

You may be right accyman, but they know the rules.
Rule 1. Once threat is neutralised, they should be taken prisoner not executed.
Rule 2. If rule 1 is not carried out, don`t get caught.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

TLDR

Edit

Too many depressing stuff here lately

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

I think the thing that they did wrong in the first place was to only wound the bloke. You are not trained to shoot to wound, you are trained to shoot to kill. That is what they did in a round about sort of way. They killed the enemy.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

This marine is as much a casualty of the conflict as those soldiers who have been killed.
War and conflict can never be 'civilised'.
If the Taliban had captured a British soldier they see him as the enemy, and will shoot him...they do not recognise the Geneva convention. Yet they expect the Geneva convention to be applied when it comes to those insurgents who are captured.
This conflict is not like the previous wars....where the enemy could easliy be recognised by their uniform...you knew which side they belonged to.
In Afghanistan the soldiers are just as likely to be shot by someone wearing an afghan police uniform...it is, in effect, a guerilla war.

So, I don't blame this soldier. I feel sorry for him...and his family.
He was killing the enemy before they killed him(or his comrades)....he just did it the wrong way(according to Geneva conventions).

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

The only thing wrong with this episode is that Soldier 2 or 3 was stupid enough not to ensure his head cam was turned off, and then to download the episode onto his LT. Perhaps he wanted to brag to his friends by showing them how they dealt with the Taliban - I hope his colleagues deal "appropriately" with him.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Hard, what the Lad did was wrong by the laws of armed conflict, having said that though, I can understand why he did what he did & to a point condone it.

The type of people these lads are fighting against would have no qualms about summarily executing an ISAF soldier in similar circumstances should their positions be reversed & would no doubt carry out the execution far more barbarically & with greater zeal as that shown by the Marine in question.

The Marine responsible & by extent his family, have now become just further casualties of another foreign war. As seen by this incident, it's not simply the bombs & bullets that cause death, injury & far reaching recriminations to those involved.

Although the Marine pulled the trigger, the politicians & egos of those who conspired to put this lad in that position are equally as guilty.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

This is aboslutely right....but it is this man who will pay the penalty for their hubris, their sabre rattling.....for putting young service men and women into an intolerable situation.

I am sure that I recently read that the Taliban captured soldiers, executed them and then hung body parts from the trees......no Geneva convention protection for those boys.
And I'm sure the Taliban would celebrate the loss of British lives..it is just that we don't see it...no head cam footage stored to a laptop.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

When my step daughter came back from afghan, we were told a story of a young soldier who went off to find some lost equipment, he was told, wrongly, that he would lose his tour bonus for losing it. He never came back. The Taliban actually radioed to tell where he could be found. He was dead,naked and had been tortured.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

No Geneva convention for him either.
There can be no 'Civilised' conflict.
I can understand why the Geneva convention rules were set up...but war was very different back then......I would hazard a guess that most soldiers knew who the enemy was.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Well its a well known fact the British, with that stiff upper lip always play by the rules, the only problem I can see, is we're the only ones who bloodywell do it:mad:

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Terrible decision ... the Taliban are not soldiers; they are murderers, criminals. These are the guys who kill innocent civilians ... women, children, the elderly. Wasn't it the Taliban who shot a young girl in the head 'cause she wanted to go to school. We had something similar over here. Capt. Robert Semrau was dismissed from the Canadian Army ... which was bad enough in the opinion of most Canadians ... but there was no jail time.

Capt. Robert Semrau dismissed from the Forces - Canada - Macleans.ca

Hopefully, sanity might prevail, and the sentence changed.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Dont hold your breath Eric, its just another example of our government pandering to laws and regulations which only seem to apply to us, and of course others when it suits them:mad:

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Let me winzip my argument for the x-box generation,... next time you're playing Battlefield 3 against pre pubescent americans/russians under your nom de plume of Smeg killA.

Do you drop them to half health and move on, or do you make sure they are dead?

Dammit, that's two paragraphs..no way does your average first person shooter gamer read that far without posting TLDR!

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

For those of is who are not into such things ....TLDR stands for 'too long didn't read'

I can really understand that acronym when it follows one of the long rambling unreadable posts of one of the members on here. But in my estimation Guinness , for what it is worth, your posts are not at all like that. They have something to say which is worth reading, and usually said with balance and common sense.
I may not always agree with what you have today, but you always make a point clearly and eloquently.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Hang on a minute Margaret, you'll have Guinness taking C'mon under his wing, then who would we have to laugh at.:rolleyes:

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

That should read....'I may not agree with what you have to say'
Predictive text has a lot to answer for:).

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

John, I have great respect for the abilities of Guinness...but I think that it is beyond him...anyway, I never said who it was that wrote long rambling unreadable posts....I could have meant ..........ME!

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Well its one less of them, shame the lads filmed it.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

we should not be there . he should not be charged he needs help. the art of combat affects peoples minds in ways other lifestyles cant. we should sort out our own country first . would not surprise me if the taliban owned half our water supply.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

well C'mon....you seem to have got to grips with full stops. Now, would you like to move on to capital letters?

Back on thread.....the point you make is not the issue here.
Some political party took us into an unwinnable conflict.......a conflict that other forces(like the Russians) gave up as a bad job.
The Army are sent where they are sent...they do not choose. They have a job to do and they do it well.
It is inevitable that things like this will happen, but I do agree that the chap needs help and that he should not be charged. After 15 years of service in theatres of war he is a damaged man...and has to live with that.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Killing the insurgent was not his undoing. If he had said:
"This one isn't going to make it, let's put him out of his misery." then the outcome would have been the same in terms of the insurgent being dead, but very different in terms Marine A's liberty. It wouldn't have even got as far as court. He could have considered collecting up their morphine and making it quick and painless, but they may have needed that later if they had been injured themselves. The bullet was the sensible option.

The insurgent had been fired on by an Apache at long range using depleted uranium bullets more than an inch thick that explode on contact. They are rated to have a "kill radius" of ten metres, so even if they don't hit the target directly, there is the shrapnel/dislodged landscape that become deadly (supposedly). Now these pilots decided that instead of flying a mile to do their own BDA, they'd rather let a squad of marines do it. If the pilots were concerned for their safety in their heavily armoured gunship which should shrug off AK47 rounds, and toting up to 38 rockets, 8 missiles and potentially more than a thousand more of these tank-killing bullets, surely nobody would expect a CASEVAC of a wounded insurgent putting more lives at risk?

He was probably quite badly injured, but even if he was mildly injured but just wasn't mobile, they did the right thing, they just said the wrong things while they were doing it.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

It was murder and I am surprised you justified it to yourself like that. He was no threat to the soldiers, he had been disarmed and was a prisoner.
Next you will be saying is was right what the Japs did to our soldiers in WW2 or what the Russians and Germans did to each other soldiers.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

So you agree with killing injured people as though they are sick dogs?
Shall we issue the Police with side arms incase they come across badly injured people in road traffic accidents so they can put them down?

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Them Afghans have a completely different mind set, they view our attitude as a weakness, if they had rendered first aid, brought him back with them and he recovered, he would most likely have gone on to kill another British soldier.
As John Wayne said the only good injun is a dead injun, as he fired his Winchester .44. The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist no matter how or who kills him.
The one that should be punished is the clown who filmed it.
When my old mate and his platoon arrived in Belsen, one of the platoon was so enraged he shot the first german he saw, the platoon officer just said we'll have no more of that, and that was the end of the matter.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Nope - I agree with killing people who are beyond help. With a dog, there's usually a financial consideration. It's rare that anyone would have to risk their life in order to save him.

Please try to keep the thread in context.

Again, to keep it in context, the police will not come to the aid of someone in danger of death if it presents a risk to their own welfare.
Police refuse to save drowning man due to lack of training - Crime - News - London Evening Standard

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

But, the police are not operating in a war zone.

Our troops are out there fighting a war, during war things happen.
I'm with Retlaw on this.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Remember these gentlemen have 72 virgins and rivers of honey waiting for them in the afterlife as reward for their deeds:rolleyes:

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

I think that is a urban myth more than anything jaysay :)

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Do you know for sure he was not going to be a threat to the soldiers?
No, I will not say that what the germans or the japanese did to our soldiers was right...or for that matter any uniformed soldier in any other conflict.
But these are terrorist fighters..not in uniform, so they are not easy to determine whether they are part of taliban forces or whether they are civilians.
Did you know that once the poppy harvest is over village males go to fight for the taliban and get get the equivalent of ten dollars a day for doing so?
So a man who one day was a civilian, suddenly becomes a soldier, until he is perhaps captured and then he becomes a civilain again for his defence.
This conflict is not like WW1 or WW2...the lines of who the enemy is are blurred.
If this man is given a life sentence then shouldn't someone put Tony Blair into the dock too....for his war crimes?

I don't think I justified murder....I said that this man was as much a casualty of the conflict as those who are maimed, injured and killed.
I made an observation that he was killing them before they killed him...and I do not see that as a justification .....it is what happens in conflict.
I suppose it is alright that the taliban hung the body parts of British lads from trees...and before you tell me that two wrongs don't make a right...I know that , but if they want to use such tactics then they should be prepared to have them used agains them. The Geneva convention means nothing to them.
Isn't there a saying...All's fair in Love and War?

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

That is certainly what they believe will await them in their paradise.

Re: Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Those that duped so bad that they take thier own life for their cause must be promised something daft. Sad as it is that these weak exploitable people are out there.

The quoran is now available in English. One could read it and see if there is anything there about 70+ virgins

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Well its supposed to be in the Islamic good book about martyrs receiving these gifts on entering the afterlife

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Here you go Rob,

Allah’s Paradise

• Each Muslim is allotted 72 virgins (huris). [Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Abstinence, 39] who remain perpetually virginal, and they are full-breasted and free from menstruation or other eliminations. [Al Ghazzali, The Revival of the Religious Sciences, Vol. 4, Death and Subsequent Events, p. 430. See also Surah 56:35 and 78:33]
• The Garden is flowing with rivers of milk, honey, crystal-clear water, and wine. [Surah 47:15]
• Dwellers in Paradise are served on golden dishes and drink from golden goblets. [Surah 43:71]
• Dwellers recline on comfortable, soft couches; they are adorned with bracelets of gold and wear garments of fine silk and heavy brocade. [Surah 18:31]
• Trees will spread around them, and they feel neither the scorching heat nor the biting cold. [Surah 76:14]
• Even the dregs of their purest wine smells like musk. [83:26]

Sounds pretty good doesn't it? That is until you realize that when you ignited that explosive vest, your Gentlemens vegetables were vaporised & spread on the winds across the Uhlu! :D


Ain't life a Bitch? :rolleyes:

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Oh Son! I do like your turn of phrase.....'gentlemans vegetables'.
I am so glad I do not imbibe at my desk...but I have had to change my grunnies again...twice in one day...it isn't good is it?

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

If that is fetched from the internet then I wouldn't trust its source. If I had time I would have the audio book of the quoran and search for this....but really I am not that interested....That research can be saved for DtheP...

A friend of mine bought "A history of cannabis" poster off the internet and that stated that mohammmed said it was ok for muslims to smoke cannabis, but not drink alcohol. Now are we also to believe this ? :D

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

You didn't comment if you agreed with the Japs and what they did in WW2. They saw our compassion and humanity as a weekness. I see it as our greatest strength.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Reminds me of a line in "Apocalypse Now" .... goes something like this: Charging someone with murder in Afghanistan is like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500:rolleyes:

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

See my post above about the Japs in WW2, it's because we are better than them and if we drop to their murdering level then there is even less point to us being there.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Neil, we should never have been there in the first place.....it was political hubris that took us into that situation, a situation that many others had tried to control and had failed at.

No conflict can be civilised...it doesn't matter what level of compassion is shown by troops and the medical teams which accompany the forces.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

I agree

I agree again but you don't kill captured soldiers/terrorists/prisoners. They are soldiers not executioners. Our whole civilization relies on rules and justice. Sorry if I am naive but that's what I believe.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

I think that we expect too much of our troops ... Isn't it enough that they put themselves in harm's way for us? "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Or, as Orwell put it, "Those who abjure violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf." Support our troops/Appuyons nos troupes:alright:

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Yes Neil.....I can understand your views and your beliefs.
Life would be very boring if we all subscribed to the same views.
We only know what the media want to tell us.....we are not really in possession of all the information.
As I said previously, I feel for the soldier and his family......they have to live with the consequences of this action for the rest of their lives.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Isn't "japs" an offensive derogatory term? Bit confusing since Craig Charles uses it all the time on takechi castle "look at that happy clappy jappy chappy"

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

So do I, they must be going through hell

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Sorry, I am not very PC

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Yes we are, but on occasion there's a slip, something will push a trooper over the edge, causes him to act out of character. These lads have done numerous tours, constantly under threat of death or maiming either to themselves, their friends or allies, so is it any wonder when a lad goes rouge?

You're not likely to ever come close to seeing a fraction of the butchery, inhumanity & horror these lads (some of them still in their teens) have seen, even if you live to be 101. So, although it's not right, there was mitigation for the action of this Marine.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

DinG, you know how it is - if people haven't been there then they cannot understand just what the feelings are.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Very true, who are we to judge.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

I agree with you but if nothing was done because of his actions it would signal that it was ok to shoot prisoners willy nilly

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

I am not exactly sure that it would have that effect.
Sometimes what we might think will happen does not.

I cannot imagine that killing a human being is ever easy.Those who are in the presence of death become very aware of their own mortality.....this I learned from my own life experiences......and while I do appreciate that soldiering is different to nursing, certain inherent attitudes are ingrained with your training.
These attitudes...or perhaps a better word is 'values' are extremely hard to break....to break them you must have to be able to dissociate yourself from your current situation.
Maybe this soldier was in a dissociative state when he did what he did.

We are unlikely ever to know....but all I would hope is that his past exemplary record will be taken into consideration, and that he will not be made a sacrifice at the altar of political correctness.The man and his family need help....not castigation.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

It was though, he went through a court martial & was found guilty. Now, prior to sentencing the military should be looking at the circumstances, physical & mental state of the individual & his company, the prevailing situation at & leading up to the incident & the available support for these troops.

Then, when all of the above has been figured in, a certain amount of leniency should be applied to the final sentence. But & it's a big but, support & solutions should be found to help the individual concerned & hopefully be actioned to prevent a recurrence of the incident with another Trooper.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Oddly enough thats exactly how the Taliban see it too, it's why they place IED's near schools, killing and maiming their own, in the hope of drawing out our guys on the ground, so they can capture or kill them as they provide that compassion and humanity.

There is a time and place for compassion and humanity, and it ain't on a battlefield.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

If one takes this discussion a step further, then should not the sniper, or the Drone controller, sitting fat dumb and happy in the USA, who launches a missile at a "target" who happens to be in a village somewhere and kills not only the target but also other individuals - including children, be charged with murder?
I seem to remember in the mists of time our Yellow Cards - "you are only allowed to fire at someone who has a weapon and has fired at you". We were not even supposed to load our weapons when on guard duty - some hope, two clips and one up the spout was the way it was.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

What a stupid rule! At 1800 feet per second you'd have to be pretty quick to fire one back before his took your head off. Were your 'leaders' trying to save paying you a pension?
As for carrying an unloaded weapon on guard duty- why not just give you a white stick and stop pretending.
Only the British would have rules designed to get you killed in the interests of PC and human rights.I'll bet the USA and French don't.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

More a case of covering arses Gordon, the rules of engagement were to prevent expensive legal claims against the Soldier/M.O.D. Like Barry said, in a situation were it was warranted, the troops would be locked & loaded & screw the niceties.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

The yellow card figures quite highly in this episode of Panorama.

Combined, the trial of Marine A and that program are basically saying is that 40 years ago it was OK to fire upon and sometimes kill unarmed terrorists or civilians who look a bit like the terrorists as long as it was state sponsored, whereas now you issue a coup de grâce on an enemy combatant, you're guilty of murder.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Well ever since the do-gooding brigade took control of this country even terrorists have rights you know Studio:rolleyes: