Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

So there is talk of the minimum wage rising from the current £6.31 to £7 an hour by October 2015.

In principle this is great news, but at what cost? I don't think this will hit big business, it will hit small to medium business HARD, and it will have a knock on effect on unemployment.

Lets give an extreme example, a supermarket buys milk as cheaply as it can, the dairy farmer has to pay his labourers to get this milk, he can afford £6.50 an hour and make a small profit for himself, suddenly he's told he has to pay £7 by law and he begins to make a small loss...he asks the supermarket for more, they say no, we need to keep our prices down..farmer goes out of business, labourers become unemployed, milk becomes scarce and the price for consumers goes up.

Alternatively the farmer fires his English labourers and pays an EU agency, they ship in EU labourers and pay them £10-£40 a day, he keeps his small profit and stays in business, the agency creams the rest and British labourers become unemployed.

Only losers are British low paid.

Surely if the government truly cared for the low paid they would lower their tax rate or increase the threshold before you have to pay tax.

As a rough guide £7-20% = £5.60...£6.31-10% = £5.68

You know, the use of EU agencies is becoming more and more appealing to small businesses particularly those in the service industry, (restaurants, hotels, care, transport etc..), especially when you factor in the cost of the upcoming automatic pension enrolment in 2014/15.

Rambling a bit now but these service industries dominate our economy...we mess with them at our peril!

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

The last paragraph nails it,simple as. None of the parties give a stuff about the low paid, it aint sensible to do so,when yer owners/directors etc of some of these places, A case of i'm alright jack,stuff the low paid.;)

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I think the idea of lowering the tax threshold for low earners is the best one.
It gives the lower paid more money but not at the expense of the employer.

Ok, so the money is being taken out of the tax coffers, but if you earn more money then you spend more money on things that would put this money back. You are also likely to be helping the local exonomy.......fostering a work ethic is important too.
Work is not just something you do to earn your daily bread, you have social interaction with work colleagues...you gain more than money by working. You gain self esteem.

Benefits trap people. They stop them from achieving, they stop them believing that anything can be different.
After a long time out of the work place you doubt your ability to be able to do a job.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Having just voted and looking at the results of this poll, it seems like I am not the only one who thinks this way.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

i cant believe they have fiddled the rate of inflation to 2% ,but then i cant believe they have tried to cover up the long term youth unemployment figures either. in one breathe they are saying house prices are rising fast but inflation is 2%:confused:. i wonder what the time scale is for this rise in the nmw or how much will it rise for under 24s .

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

And no other government ever did this?
Fiddled the figures.
I have a cynical disregard for figures and statistics provided by ANY government.
They are there purely to bamboozle.

Anyway, that wasn't the question that was posed in this poll.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Perhaps at the next cabinet meeting you slide under the door to attend, you will be able to pose that question and tell us all.
I wait with baited breath.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

any government gives with one hand and takes with the other the only concern this lot have about how they do this is that it makes the poorer folk feel like they are getting something so they gettheir votes.

whichever way this is done the poor will continue to be screwed and wont be any better off

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

lowering the tax threshold & ring fencing would certainly assist the low paid worker but the missing revenue would have to resourced from the middle class or the rich and I think there is only one political party that would be in favour of implementing this option

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Accyman, I don't think this is necessarily true.

To give those lowest paid a hand by not taking money in taxes has got to give them a bit of a boost(then, how they spend it is their business - fags and booze will give it back to the chancellor).....perhaps another way would be to allow smaller businesses to benefit from paying less tax to employ people would help too.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

The missing revenue would be recouped in other ways. A really good way would be to close the tax loopholes that big businesses exploit.....Ok, it isn't illegal for them to make use of these loopholes, but it is immoral and the government knows about them so they should be closed.
If the company says it will relocate to somewhere else, then let them...it leaves a space in the market where some other company who is prepared to pay their way can get a footing.
Each business that screws HMRC is screwing the customer.

If someone is getting more money by working rather than by being paid benefits this has to be better for the worker and better for the country.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

if they made a poor family better off by £10 per week at the next budget they would be screwed out of £15 per week

like i said whatever they loose will be clawed back by eithe rincresing a tax or creating a new tax

closing tax loopholes would gain some of the loss but this is a government that takes people who owe millions in tax to lunch at our expense and beggs them to pay at least some of the money they owe instead of sending in the bailiffs

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

So then what is your solution?
There will always be poor people...and by that I mean that some people will remain poor whatever is done.
I have been poor and what this meant was that there was no money(not a red cent in my mothers purse) and no food. What is more there was absolutely no welfare to help us out of the hole. We didn't rob from others who were just like us. My mother pawned her wedding ring to put food on the table.

What this taught me was you have to rely on yourself. You have to do what you can to make your own life better.
There are always going to be those who are rich......that is how life is.....unless you live in China or some other communist country(and there is bribery and corruption in those societies too).......so come up with some better system.

Stop sending aid money overseas to countries that have despotic rulers, to countries that have space programs, to countries that have the lions share of all commercial markets(China)...spend the money on projects in this country that will give real work to jobless youngsters.
Stop paying those who are able bodied to stay at home and live off the tax payer.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

we could all vote ukip:D UKIP pledges to send homosexual couples to drought affected areas

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

What has that got to do with minimum wage?:confused:
You Muppet.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

If you have nothing sensible to add to the debate why don't you just go away?
You have demeaned a sensible thread with your inane post.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I am just off to put the flag up on the town hall Cmon has put a post on this thread without using ANY cut and paste!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry couldn't resist ) if you dont believe me its post five. As for the minimum wage conundrum its got to be the tax threshold to be altered , as pointed out by others small firms might struggle to pay the increase but its about time the fat cats started to pay their way in tax terms letting multi nationals and foreign firms slime their way out of millions in tax has to stop.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

sorry about that. but seriously i would be wondering what george osborne is up to. coming out with a statement raising the national minimum wage a year before the election. does he mean before the election or after the election:confused:

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

You are just too suspicious.
Anyway, ask him next time you see him...I'm sure he will tell you...you seem to be party to all the insider information.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Rather pleased to declare that 'something else' is an important option, but feel constrained by the immediately-apparent lack of essential insult - I'm losing it, it can be proposed.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

For those who care a fig, I pay my cleaner ten pounds an hour. That's not any hour, you understand - just those during which she attends for work. I'll upset a few here, perhaps - and jolly-dee if I do - when I so boldly indicate that my cleaner is female.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Not sensible, but quite interesting nonetheless.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

would you enlighten me as to why my suggestion is not sensible?
If someone posts a nonsensical post to sensible thread....how can it not be sensible to ask that person to go away?
Enlightenment is required..please.

And in the interest of reasoned debate you could also enlighten us as to what your 'something else' consists of too.

What you choose to pay your cleaner is your business......and I don't care what gender your cleaner is. What has it got to do with the minimum wage what the gender of your cleaner is?

You are usually so precise about not thread wandering...not like the lesser mortals on here who do it for fun.

Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I suspect, he meant c'mons post wasn't sensible not yours, but the way his mind works I can't be sure.
Something else just means he doesn't know what else.
Substituting carer for cleaner may be more accurate.
As for gender your right, we don't need to know. He is trying to boost his own self importance in this post as with his other posts.
As for thread wandering, he has already stated that rules don't apply to him only we foolish mortals.
He really should try to join the real virtual world once in a while.
:)

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Well Less, it was my post he quoted...so I it was a fair conclusion that he meant that it was my post which was not sensible.

Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Well, whoever he meant, his opinions aren't anything worthwhile.
:)

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Is it just me or is that bollox:confused::confused:

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Now then, now then, walkinman.

That's no way to comment on one of the profound, thought provoking pronouncements of Graham Hartley!

I'll have you know he has a cleaner. Not only that- it's a woman. Not only that-he pays her. No itinerant traveler, our Graham Hartley!

The way he states it suggests he feels it makes him a person of standing in the community. Deserving of your respect.

The fact that you thought, even for a moment, that one of his contributions might be 'bollox' may suggest to him a lack of intelligence and education on your part.

So join the rest of us.:D

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

As if serious, I'll try pressing on. The 'something else' approach involves all who contribute to a common good receiving the same financial reward. I worked in the eighties in Wales for an organisation with some four hundred employees. It was proposed that we should all receive the same for our efforts. Arithmetic was done, and presented. The proposal was ultimately rejected by a majority who would lose the most.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

You have me right, Gordon Booth. I derive immense pleasure from any response to my remarks. For me, the worst that any here could do would be to ignore.

Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Allow me a copy and paste I'm sure it will save walkinman from repeating himself.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Sorry to confuse, Margaret. I meant to declare that the other chap's remark wasn't a sensible contribution to the matter.

I've described elsewhere what my favoured 'something else' would be.

There is a lingering attitude that cleaning is the work of women, and it was this view that I wanted to examine. I quite agree that it must not matter that a cleaner is a man or a woman.

I am not a supporter of the minimum wage, by reason of that name and also the rate. I couldn't survive if paid that amount, given the conveniences and choices I have grown firm in supporting. In practice, though, I do support it whenever I shop locally because the shop workers are paid at that level.

Thread-wander is quite common here and elsewhere, I've noticed.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Do your own then!

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

So if we were to adopt this, Footballers would be paid the same as Nurses.
Heart Surgeons would be paid the same as a Road Sweeper.
Airline Pilots would be paid the same as Bus Drivers.

I do believe the former USSR tried that, it failed.
You see the problem with ypur arguement Graham is quite simple, I studied for several years, spent tens of thousands of pounds to become a pilot. Twice a year I have the oportunity of losing my license by testing and a stringent medical. If i make a mistake 200 peopke will die.
If we were all paid the same, why would anyone strive to achive?

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Well, I thought the argument was worth essay. Are there not some achievements beyond, or in some other way separated from money? If none but me can think of any, perhaps I'm missing a great deal of what passes for ordinary, everyday enjoyment of life. In a further venture away from the topic, I have a cousin who is a retired airline pilot. He would agree with you, I feel sure.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I know men who are cleaners.
towards the end of his working life my father was a school caretaker - he cleaned the school.....he also did basic maintenance, but the major part of the job was cleaning the school.
Many jobs are less gender specific than at any time in the past.

I agree with Boeing guy.
During my career I was responsible for the health, safety and care of many thousands of women. I studied hard to get my qualifications. I was also responsible for the education and training of students under my care.
I was subject to yearly appraisal and every three years I could be asked to prove my continued education.
My salary was not great(when the responsibilities were considered)....but it was the job I chose to do. I knew what it entailed when I went into it.
Work is more than just a paypacket...it is what makes us get up each day and stir ourselves. It is an important part of daily life and that which keeps us sane...and builds confidence and self esteem. A feeling that your life is worthwhile...the you are worth something to the community in which you live.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I do as much as I can find the time to do. I think it right to help her, and she appears happy enough - and I am happier to pay her what I do than I would be if I paid her minimum wage.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Can't we make it that Nurses are paid the same as footballers? I don't think you would get many footballers prepared to play for a nurses salary.

I think that many of the values of society are badly skewed.....the wrong people are paid the most money...but then it is what those who wish to watch sportsmen are willing to pay...but ask those people to pay more for the upkeep of their local hospital services and watch them head for the door.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

But then, that is your choice.
If you are both happy with the situation then that is fine.....but some businesses do not have the luxury of the choice you make.
Businesses are in business to make a profit(I know that may sound a strange concept)...and many of the small businesses are only just making ends meet.
Our town centre is a testament to this.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I understand your logic and agree with most of it, Boeing Guy. A person SHOULD get compensated for the efforts they have made and for their achievements. My children spent years of study during which they went without a lot of the things their peers had (for obvious financial reasons - no income as such during that time) so I agree that they should now be receiving decent salaries, which they are, and that their efforts are being justly rewarded.

However, I don't think you should have compared footballers with nurses - nurses are far more important that footballers - maybe if footballers DID get the same as nurses then the latter would be better compensated, though I doubt it.

Don't be surprised to get a comment from Margaret P re this. I'll be disappointed if you don't!!!!

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Margaret - you beat me to it - you were posting your reply even while I was putting in my bob's worth. Good on you!

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Just as Firefighters and others who do so much more for their comunity and mankind.
It is wrong, but we are governed by market forces and in the case of the NHS....PFI!

My Grandmother was a Nurse, the NHS front line have saved my life, I had a car crash when I was 18, it is a shame we don't live in an ideal world.

Dotti, I have no problem with sports stars/ film stars etc earning huge sums of money, but your right, there are inequalities in this world. Nurses are woefully underpaid and I have nothing but the upmost respect for them. I appologise if my comments offended anyone.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Quote - Graham Hartley, I do as much as I can find the time to do. I think it right to help her, and she appears happy enough - and I am happier to pay her what I do than I would be if I paid her minimum wage.


Sorry, G.H. but I think if you stick around to help her and during this time you share some of the same type of comments we have grown accustomed to getting from you - and the poor woman has to listen to it all, then I think she deserves a raise.....

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

You can say that again, Boeing Guy. Do you know that a huge number of those brave courageous firefighters who have been fighting the horrific fires in this country lately (and still are) are volunteers - who receive no financial gain whatsoever....
...and thank goodness for them.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Yes, there are many here and elsewhere who can't stand my company and are most forthright in saying so. Such is not the case here. I'm at work when she attends, and I pay her via a third party. Indeed, she was chosen by a third party, such is the risk that misogyny will spoil the enterprise. The help I offer is financial - sorry to confuse.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Do either of you declare her earnings? Is she self employed or do you give her holiday pay? Is there a contract of employment between you? Will she get redundancy pay if you decide to move from the area?

It's pretty simple to give someone £10 an hour for doing a couple of hours a week...I pay a mechanic, a plumber, an electrician to do jobs for me.. and I don't have to be concerned about NI, business overheads, upkeep of premises, utility bills, rates, employment law, paperwork, 5.6 weeks paid holidays, pension schemes, incentives.. yada... yada.. yada..

There is a world of difference and major cost implication between paying someone to push the dyson and clean your crystal chandelier a couple of times a week and employing someone on a full time basis.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

As you may have read elsewhere, I pay via a third party so am somewhat insulated from the matters you raise. I can only agree that the differences between part-time and full-time employment are as you describe them.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I don't think you are very fair. It isn't that we do not like your company...you just do not go out of your way to be liked....but this again, is your choice.
You come across as a very curmudgeonly person.
That may be really who you are, or you may have developed this facade as some sort of shield.
I can get along with most folk who are prepared to be a bit courteous and kind....after all, we are all treading a stony uphill road.

Maybe you don't want to be liked, valued by other people. Maybe your attitude is like it or lump it....it isn't an endearing trait.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Yes, I think your interpretation largely accurate. I have no feeling that to be liked is important. Yet I see that I've attracted a Like - perhaps that was for others in the thread.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Graham Hartley – am I to take it from your posting 45 that you are a misogynist? I hope I misunderstood – though this might explain why you don’t always come across as intelligently as you would like to appear. Misogyny and intelligence do not belong together, and so say all of us (well, the women at least do).

The third party bit is very interesting and explains a lot….

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

You really are a strange man. You must have a very low esteem. You seem to deliberately set out to be disliked, almost wearing this dislike as if it were a badge of honour. A psychiatrist (or psychologist as the case may be) would have a field day with you. I have never yet met anyone who doesn't wish to be liked for something, whether for themselves, for what they have done or are doing - anything....

...but first of all you have to like yourself. Try doing that, G.H. It might open a whole new world for you.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I included the word to stir up feelings of any sort. Often, I speak to others with a touch of misandry and misogyny, depending on the audience. It can be said that I dislike most humans, the genders quite equally - though I don't have a way to measure that. If it might confirm some in their view, I am pleased to say that my favourite technical author is Mary L Boas. Thanks for commenting on the way I come across. I use such comments to influence changes in my persona here.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Aren't we in trouble for straying so far from the trodden thread? Thanks for this evening. One like! It will appear in my dreams.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

The forum is like a conversation in general.
Conversations meander, but often get back to the point in some strange way.
Like Dotti, I have never come across anyone who doesn't want to be liked for some part of what they do in their lives.
It is what motivates many to do the things they do....and become good at.
We learn this behaviour as children, and continue it because it makes us feel valued.

If you go out of your way to be disliked then I have to conclude that you are a very sad person(and I mean this in the emotional sense...rather than the insulting sense) and if this is the case I do feel really sorry for you.
You must have missed out on some of life's most wonderful and satisfying experiences.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I was almost starting to feel sorry for you, Graham H, but after your posting where you say you dislike most humans then I just think you are a sad, lonely man - but, perversely, getting some sort of kick out of being so. You do like to try to turn threads to which you subscribe to be all about Graham Hartley.

Maybe we should leave you be and get back to the subject of the thread.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

So in effect you pay an agent £10 an hour to source a suitable cleaner on your behalf.

Who is responsible for cleaning materials, overalls, gloves, etc.. Does this come out of the £10 or do you come home to notes like 'no domestos left' and 'mop head broke'? Do you provide step ladders so that she can reach the curtain rail or the top shelf in the cupboard without stretching? Is the electrical equipment she uses PAT tested? Is there a suitable fire escape plan in place? Do you have a lone worker risk assessment in place?

I'm not really looking for answers, just trying to show that the minimum wage cost to a small employer is already around the £9 an hour mark when you take overheads and legal compliance into account. That £9 rises significantly if you take training into account especially if this training needs to be refreshed annually.

This is why the only way to increase the minimum take home wage is via the tax threshold, unless you want more unemployment, fewer businesses or the rise of unscrupulous agencies.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Graham......

But you then contradict yourself a few posts later on......

So you pay an agency £10.00 an hour. She won't get that, I would have thought she will get minimum wage for that, after all an agency has to make a profit.
You really have no idea what she gets paid and your ramblings are getting tiresome.

I have now removed the Like I gave, simply because you contradict yourself, your £10 per hour is not a good deed but the going rate from the agency.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

[QUOTE=Boeing Guy;1091258


So you pay an agency £10.00 an hour. She won't get that, I would have thought she will get minimum wage for that, after all an agency has to make a profit.
You really have no idea what she gets paid and your ramblings are getting tiresome.


I have now removed the Like I gave, simply because you contradict yourself, your £10 per hour is not a good deed but the going rate from the agency.[/QUOTE]

Oh, come on dotti and BG. You're being hard on the man!
After all, he does have a woman cleaner, which for a misogynist is quite a sacrifice. But then, as a misandrist his choice is rather limited.
All right, he had to divorce himself from actually choosing a woman and he doesn't know(or appear to care) how much the agency actually pay her.
But he does make sure she only comes when he's at work- now there's an act of kindness!
There's something good in all of us, although in Graham Hartleys case it's proving difficult to find. Perhaps he's the exception?

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Thanks Less i wouldn't want Mr Hartley to think my education lacking , by replying to yet another post of which i have no comprehension. After all Mr Hartleys position is obviously one of lofty proportions he has a FEMALE cleaner for gods sake how can we poor mortals live with that.:confused:

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

That's one thing about Accyweb, walkinman.

Now and again we ordinary folk get to see how the other half live-and think.

Worrying, isn't it?

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

It is Gordon it is, no sleep for me again tonight:eek:

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

the government will save on working tax credits at the cost of employers.clever stuff?

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Thanks, Boeing, for removing the Like. That's an interesting function to allow in PHP or any other scripting language, innit. I feel that I'm relegated to the status deserved, and must feel only grateful.

For any who care - I've received a Notification (not my capitalisation) to the effect that the use of an apostrophe of omission is not an abbreviation. Now I thought I had some of you fooled and can do without such interference, which rather spoils my fun and so the reason I'm here.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

Gordon Booth, you have me right as ever. I'm assured by a number of associates elsewhere that there is no good in me - confirmation bias, perhaps.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

For someone who doesn`t care about being liked, you don`t half bang on about the fact that someone gave you a like for one of your posts.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

That's fakery. Lovely dog.

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

it always has two sides: good news for the workers, bad news for the businessmen

naked celebrities

Re: Minimum wage rise - good or bad?
 

I suggest you read the first post on this thread.

We all look forward to your insights on such a contentious issue