Ukraine
 

I am very surprised that there has been no debate about the goings on in the Ukraine.We really do need to stand up to Russia over this, otherwise where will it all end?

Re: Ukraine
 

Whilst it wouldn't shock me at all if Russias at the centre of this, i remain far from convinced.:eek:

Re: Ukraine
 

do they have oil and is there enough to go to war for ?

stillpaying £1.35 for diesil so obviously Iraqs oil wasnt worth fighting for..

im not saying we went to war for oil on the previous 2 occassions but it would be nice if in future government figured out the end cost before nodding its head and kissing americas arse

Re: Ukraine
 

I think the lack of comment here is due to people not being convinced by conflicting propaganda being spouted from opposing sides.

This scepticism is healthy sign that the population is aware that all governments lie - often!

The truth is seldom revealed so it is best to remain unbiased and indifferent and let them get on with all the spiel.
Unless you are there, you never know the truth.

Re: Ukraine
 

For starters it's a bit hypocritical that this Government in UK supports armed gangs rioting in the street - when if 5 people walked down the street in the UK with military outfits, shields and so on they would be apprehended immiediately by the Police. So why is it Ok for armed gangs to riot and destabilise a legit government?

Re: Ukraine
 

Nasty ruddy folk those Ukrainian 'freedom fighters'.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3yhiX-1gkCQ


And all the while in Bahrain, 13 protesters have been jailed for life for protesting 13 Bahrainis, teens among them, get life sentences for protest ? RT News.....


....Not even a murmur from our corrupt/evil government.....hmmm :rolleyes:

Re: Ukraine
 

I think the reason for the disinterest Jim is due to the fact that it's a faraway place & doesn't seem to directly affect your average bloke on the street in UK. Not our problem Guv' plus fatigue with military intervention in another foreign land isn't high on anyones list especially the politicoes.

I'd say Accy mans assumption is pretty close to the mark to my mind.

Re: Ukraine
 

there will be no proper sanctions, as most of london is owned by the russians . this is part of the reason why the working class are being pushed out of london pushing the prices through the roof . if i was in power i would have a surcharge tax on empty homes in london .

Re: Ukraine
 

The nation has already been conned by government oer standing up to people, once is a mistake any one can make, "TWICE" any "FOOL" can.:rolleyes:

Re: Ukraine
 

Chamberlain said all these platitudes in 1938 and look where it got us.My solution would be to invite Ukraine to join the Common Market and NATO and call the Russians bluff. Because that is all it is .Bluff.

Re: Ukraine
 

Well jim if yer solution is fer them to join the E.U. most people i talk to want outa the damn thing, there probably better off in sodding Russia.:rolleyes:

Re: Ukraine
 

The Russians tried to bluff the west in Cuba in the 1960s, but Kennedy stood up to them and they withdrew their missiles.We need to get tough with Putin and show him that we mean business.he will capitulate when he realises that the west stand together over his annexation plans.

Re: Ukraine
 

I believe that was how this all started,

Re: Ukraine
 

The world was a vastly different place in the 1960's.
World War three would be something no-one wants to contemplate...and this situation in the Ukraine could be the start of something so big and nasty.
Russia hold the gas supplies to many of the european countries...all he has to do is turn it off.......and I do believe Putin would do it.

Re: Ukraine
 

I don't think Russia is all that interested in taking over Ukraine, they just want to ensure that ethnic Russians/Russian speakers living there are protected. All the posturing, embargoes, sabre rattling etc. by the USA & UK (get rid of Hague!) is pointless and dangerous. Let's stay out of it.

Re: Ukraine
 

Maybe it's because we don't really care about it.

Re: Ukraine
 

That could certainly have a bearing on the situation.;)

Re: Ukraine
 

I despair sometimes about the attitude of little englanders.

Re: Ukraine
 

I despair about those who believe everything they are told.:rolleyes:

Re: Ukraine
 

I despair of those who think we should wet nurse the world...take in the hordes, whilst leaving our own poor to stuggle along.
We need to sort out the problems in our own back yard...not meddle in the back yards of others.
Wars solve nothing..they just make money for those who are already rich...and they take the sons(and daughters) from families.

Surely two world wars and the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq should have taught us that.
Only fools fail to learn from history.

Re: Ukraine
 

Nailed it in one.

Re: Ukraine
 

Bit scathing that Jim, just because some folk don't have any real strong opinion one way or another about Ukraine, doesn't make them little Englanders. Most folk have got concerns of their own which are far more pressing & closer at hand.

So what would you have us do then? Bearing in mind our Military have been pretty much involved in ongoing foreign conflicts since 1991 on & off while at the same time having their numbers & budgets cut.

Re: Ukraine
 

Well thats right n i know yeh will find this hard to believe, but i can do scathing also, "Its a Typical Little Tory Attitude";)

Re: Ukraine
 

Surely, the typical Little Englander approach is to go charging in there to sort out Johnny Foreigner?

Re: Ukraine
 

Why do you care if Russia want to retake over some country that they first took 231 years ago in 1783?
It only became part of Ukraine in 1953 and was all part of the Soviet Union then so it didn't really make any difference. Crimea is and autonomous republic anyway so elected it's own parliament so was as good as an independent country with the majority of it's population seeing themselves as Russian.

What do you see is wrong with what has happened and why should we do anything about it?

Why is it that in this and other western countries we always assume the under dog is correct and the big boys are the evil ones we should stop?

Re: Ukraine
 

Because Neil, it won't end with the Ukraine, it will be the Baltic States next, Latvia Lithuania etc. Putin is a bully who wants to protect Russia by having a buffer zone around his territory,so that his people are not tempted to ask why they are so poor when the west is so rich.Him and his rich oligarchs have carved Russia up to the detriment of his own people.As for turning off the gas as some people fear,he knows that he needs the wests money to shore up his evil empire. All bullies are afraid of being stood up to, Putin is no different.

Re: Ukraine
 

I think that Putin also knows that the UK has very little that would be a threat to him.
In fact most of Europe is in the same boat......and I don't think that the US has the stomach for such a conflict.

Putin is a little man who wants to appear big.
As for him not turning off the gas......he would do it in a heartbeat. How long do you think it would be before the countries who rely on Gazprom to capitulate?
My guess is not very long. So he would have no fear of losing money.

Re: Ukraine
 

Ah ... a new "domino theory" ... I don't think so. And from whom is this "buffer" zone going to protect Mother Russia? (This is the Russia that can't effectively contain Chechnya, whatever and wherever the place is.) This ain't the late 30s. The Wehrmacht is not massing on the frontiers of Eastern Europe. Since they bought Europe the Germans have become warm and fuzzy; the Teutonic Hordes are no more. There is only one super power in the world, and they have armed themselves into impotence. Not only that, the yanks, altho' they talk tough, really don't want to send their sons into battle again. They've had enough with Iraq ... a trillion dollar FUBAR if ever there was one ... and Afghanistan. And President Obama is in his second term ... he doesn't have to worry about re-election. He can afford to be called "weak on Russia"; he doesn't have to pander to fat, white, rich, NRA supporting, Republican males who are eager to fight to the last drop of blood and their guns are pulled from their cold dead hands:rolleyes: ... well, metaphorically anyway. The real blood will be shed by the poor sods who go into harms way ... usually poor kids with no political or dollar pull to keep then safe at home. Sorry about the rant;)

The problems in the Ukraine will be settled diplomatically and sort of peacefully. If I'm wrong, and the nuclear shiite hits the swiftly rotating object, I will just have to send my mouth way down south, and kiss my ass goodbye.

Oh, and I was going to point out that the unequal distribution of wealth in Russia is probably no worse than it is in the UK, the US, even here. Americans buy Premier League teams too.;)

Ukraine
 

How very strange, I live in the west, like many a good little englander I wouldn't consider myself rich enough to want to send someone else's son to fight the Russians.
Let them have a buffer zone, though if you object, anytime you want to go and chastise this so called bully I won't stop you.

Re: Ukraine
 

I am with Less on this. There is little to gain from all of this, Putin is flexing his power with an easy target, having visited Ukraine with work, Kiev, Donetsk and Mariupol, there is little evidence of any wealth there.
It looks just like any other ex Soviet state.
So we go in and Vlad the mad decides to use his SS25's, forcing us to use our Tridents.......

Somehow, like other Nuclear states, I cannot see us getting too involved

Re: Ukraine
 

Don't worry, Jim'll sort em out.:rolleyes:

Re: Ukraine
 

I doubt any of them mainstream press journalists are telling the whole truth about what is happening in Ukraine, pumping anti-Russian propaganda 24/7 as war becomes ever closer :rolleyes:

A few Interesting reads:
Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass
by Robert Parry
Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass | Common Dreams


Surprise deal reached on Ukraine crisis - Al Jazeera English

Re: Ukraine
 

Journalist @ the truth, should never be put in the same sentence.;)

Re: Ukraine
 

It could escalate out of control, here's a picture from inside one of the bunkers, All over the Country our top technicians are preparing the payloads, 'Just In Case'!

Re: Ukraine
 

Putin (the creepy [deleted])is playing a dangerous/stupid game which he needs a stop putting to it right now.
The USA, EU have 'jumped the shark', they messed this one up from the start....

....Nuclear fallout knows no boundaries :rolleyes:

Re: Ukraine
 

Why stupid? Putin knows as everyone knows, none of the so-called super powers dare not/will not attack each other, we have come way to far on the weaponry front fer that to happen, whist i can't stand the geezer n am well aware what a thug he is, thats life.

Re: Ukraine
 

Russia has weapons that could destroy both the USA and England (as they have that could destroy Russia)...Fair point C, let's hope your right and we've " come way to far on the weaponry front for that to happen".

Re: Ukraine
 

So has the USA, at the end of the day,none of em had the guts or stupidity (depends how yeh view it) to use em in the early 60s, when weapons were really in infancy,comparatively speaking? n in those days the yanks had a real fear/phobia about "Reds under the Bed";) only way i can see modern weaponry being fired is by real loonballs like Gadaffi was n people like that in tin-pot dictatorships.

Re: Ukraine
 

You may joke, but here are some of their Fleet and a Nuclear boomer, Missile Sub:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/att...an_ships_0.jpg

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/att...d_k-159_lg.jpg

Re: Ukraine
 

Thank you for permission to be slightly whimsical. :rolleyes:

Perhaps we could do an Easter Special with the trotters selling them some paint?
'This time next year, my son, we could be annihilated!'

http://www.ofah.net/blog/wp-content/...9/12/ep6.1.jpg

The Russians are Coming

Re: Ukraine
 

Is it just me or does Jim remind you of this guy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoATWN68IZA

Re: Ukraine
 

Slightly off topic but... What annoys me about the Russians is most of them are cheaters at multiplayer games. Going up against a bunch of them in Battlefield 4 is a joke GRRRR

Re: Ukraine
 

yeah them pesky ruskies ruined medal of honour too:mad:

Re: Ukraine
 

Definitely a reason for intercontinental ballistic nuclear war - we don't care about Russian gas because good old Lancashire shale gas will keep us warm and the electricity flowing for years while the radiation dies down on the Russian gas

Re: Ukraine
 

The US Government (namely Joe Biden) had the gall to say
"No nation should stoke instability in other countries".
Remarks to the Press by Vice President Joe Biden and Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk | The White House)

This is coming from the nation that has 'a history of stoking instability in other countries '.
Obviously, Joe doesn't do irony :rolleyes:

Re: Ukraine
 

Denmark, the Netherlands and the UK scrambled their fighter planes this week as Russian aircraft ventured further than usual into EU territory when they flew up to the Scottish coastline. Putin is definitely enjoying this game of cat and mouse. Would he have dared do that if Fylingdales was still operational?

Re: Ukraine
 

I think you're getting a bit mixed up there.
Flyfendales is part of the Balistic Missle Early Warning System, it's primary role is to detect incoming nuclear missiles and give a warning, so we can go kiss our a... goodbye.

Apparently the Russians were flying Tupolev 95s's (NATO code name Bear), a old propeller aircraft from the 1950's, not much of a match for our Typhoon's

Re: Ukraine
 

Not even a match for the Dutch F-16's they scrambled either BG.

U.K. Ministry of Defense in a statement. “The Russian military aircraft remained in international airspace at all times as they are perfectly entitled to do so. Russian military flights have never entered UK sovereign airspace without authorization.”

Read more at Russian Bombers Buzz British, Dutch Airspace, Fighters Scramble To Chase Them Off

A quiet newsday I reckon.

Re: Ukraine
 

150 US troops in Poland up against the Russian border right now undertaking 'military exercises' with the Polish army. 450 further US troops arriving.
Black Horizon: Tensions rise in Ukraine as US soldiers arrive in Poland

(I think) We're (for a choice of better words) goosed if America provokes a war with Russia. We depend on Russia and we should be doing more to create peace between us and Russia, not following the Yanks and trying to start a ruddy war.
I can foresee a reality check coming soon as gas prices go up even higher and more of our vulnerable pensioners die.
Ukraine isn't even in the ruddy EU. It's nothing to do with us and EVEN LESS to do with the Yanks. It's ex-Soviet territory so let them sort it out between themselves :rolleyes:.

:hidewall:

Re: Ukraine
 

A war between America n Russia??? perhaps its you needs a reality Check?:rolleyes:

Re: Ukraine
 

'Perhaps' your right C :D

Re: Ukraine
 

The main thing about Scotland is that it's where our North Sea wealth is, plus where we keep and maintain our nuclear submarines. Presumably Putin was having fun testing our reactions. One day somebody in the defence team is going to say "oh it's only the Ruskies having us on again" and will delay reaction times.

Putin has always let it be known that he wanted to resurrect the Soviet Union. The writing was on the wall for Ukraine when a majority of more than half of Ukrainians wanted their country to accede to the European Union, while only one third favoured joining a Moscow-led alliance

Re: Ukraine
 

Who convinced you of that ?

Have you confirmed it is true ?

Re: Ukraine
 

No I haven't visited the Ukraine to confirm the story. I believed the UK TV newsreels at the time. If I remember correctly, it was just after the vote that their President sherried off to Russia

Re: Ukraine
 

Why don't we (NATO), America and Russia just get together and bomb the shist out of China?
We don't really need them to produce tat, we have proved over the years we can all produce our own, destroy them and start building our own sock manufacturing towns, then at last we can live in harmonious self inflicted debt.

Re: Ukraine
 

I suggest you read this thread
http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ies-48617.html

It may make you a little more sceptical

Re: Ukraine
 

lol I've just seen images of the "bears" - I've never seen so many props stuck onto a dart before :-)

Re: Ukraine
 

Thanks for the link to the debate about CNN newsreels.

Watching the CNN news isn't something I normally do - maybe I should try it - for a laugh

Re: Ukraine
 

You obviously didn't read much of the thread.
CNN aren't the only ones doing it.
In fact, I think we could be hard pressed to find a news broadcaster who doesn't deceive.!!

Re: Ukraine
 

You're quite right - I skimmed through the four pages and didn't look at the full wiki article, nor chase other articles on other websites about the subject of false and/or lazy reporting.

My view on Ukraine is that ex KGB Putin wants to reassemble the Soviet Union and he'll probably outmanoeuvre "the West" whilst he's tricked us into looking the other way.

Re: Ukraine
 

So your view is based upon? Daily Mail? Telegraph? Independent? Gurniad? Sun? The bloke next door? Tory dogma? A straw poll of 4 year olds?

Or maybe you have some wondrous insight that doesn't require input from other sources..oh wait..you already stated you have no first hand experience..so by definition you pretty much base your opinion on hearsay and input from other sources. (Mainstream Murdoch media Tory bias perhaps?)

How do you know that the websites that Margaret refers to have false and/or lazy reporting as opposed to the ones you get your information from having factual and/or industrious reporting? You give no evidence whatsoever.

I always thought that to win a debate you had to destroy a proposal by giving an argument to disprove it, not by saying 'ya boo sucks, I'm right and you're wrong cos I say so regardless of anything you say'

Margaret offers evidence..you offer a personal view without any basis at all......ain't that hard to spot the Tory!

Re: Ukraine
 

Where is your evidence for this supposition?

Lots of people of all political persuasions will make their own judgements on news stories.

Many people believe what they are told in the newspapers and other media sources because they have no reason not to believe what they are told(they haven't looked below the surface)......They do not have the level of cynicism or perhaps the life experience of some members.

That, however, doesn not necessarily mean that they are 'Tory' in their thinking.
You could level the same criticism against me, but you would be wrong...oh so wrong!

Re: Ukraine
 

I must have missed the post where Lucysgirl said she had first hand experience.

Where do you draw your opinions from Guinness?
Don't you read or listen to media news reports? If you do...then how much of them do you believe and what do you base your beliefs on?
I am not being 'fly' here. I would genuinely like to know your thought processes when making your opinions...and what influences them.

You could go to the Ukraine and still not be in possession of all of the facts...(or those that were relevant to the conflict anyway) and we all know that you can only make choices based on the information you have in front of you.

Re: Ukraine
 

You can choose to regard all news as propaganda.
Unless you witness an event you can never know enough to 'take sides'.

Re: Ukraine
 

Guinness...I think you may have misinterpreted Lucysgirl's post.

I don't think she was accusing the links that MargaretR gave of 'false and/or lazy reporting'
She was just making the point that she had not looked at all of the links(relating to the subject of false/lazy reporting) that MargaretR had supplied.

I'm sure if it is me who has misinterpreted this post, there will be someone out there who slaps my wrist and tells me to behave.:)

Re: Ukraine
 

Yes Margaret.....that is how I view the news. I also look for underlying motives as to why I am being asked to believe this.
As you might know I am quite cynical in some respects.
Belief systems grow with us as we grow, they should develop as we develop....they change as we change.
It only takes the sharp frost of political lies to wipe out what we have grown over a number of years...and there have been a very large number of political lies that have come under the spotlight in recent times.
Politicians only tell us what they think we want to hear. There role is not to make life better for us, but to make life better for themselves.

Re: Ukraine
 

And even when you are there, you can only ever witness one bit of the event...you can only ever see it from your own perspective...in effect, your own life experience will make you see it in your own way...it can be no other way.

Re: Ukraine
 

In an earlier life, when we had a 3 mile limit around the UK, my pals and I were frequent visitors to the east coast sands. The fish were plentiful then and amongst the local trawlers was one which scarcely moved. It was a very different looking Russian "trawler" which stood out due to its shape and antennae.

Re: Ukraine
 

I'm not wanting to "win a debate", especially in troubled times like this. I don't actually read any newspaper these days, especially since the corner newsagent closed down recently.

I haven't been following the events in the Baltic States, excepting to note that a once handsome politician was suddenly rushed to an out of state hospital and later emerged with a pock marked face looking twice his age.

The next instance to hit my consciousness was the blonde female parliamentarian who won power and was then imprisoned for some reason.

Then Crimea hit the headline news and when one views an atlas and realises the Russians need security for their shipping in the Sea of Azos there's no wonder Putin didn't want the Ukraine to take the Crimea with it into Europe.

During the Soviet union there has to have been movement of Russian naval dockyard men and their families across to the Crimea and the same applies to the Ukrainian eastern border where it's evident that Russians have crossed over and settled.

France, the UK and other western European countries have laid down policies that everyone in their countries have to speak the national language if they want any benefits, work, etc. ONE tipping point in the current situation seems to have been that the Ukraine Parliament had also tried to insist that the Ukrainian language be taught in schools as a FIRST language, which annoyed the Russian speaking inhabitants.

Now - go back to the Atlas and see how easy it would be for NATO to contain Russian war ships at the entry to the Black Sea if the Ukraine signed up to join us in the west.

Oh - and you can congratulate me as I've just become a great grandma :dancedog:

Re: Ukraine
 

My word, you must have been having a really bad day!
No need at all for that ranting.
We all base our opinions on what we see, read, hear and experience, if you have a better way of forming an opinion you really must tell us.
We can only use our own judgement to decide if we trust and believe our sources.
Lucysgirl is merely expressing her opinions as we're still allowed to on here. Just because you don't like them doesn't make her wrong or you right.
As for making her a Tory- we all have personal views without any basis at all- start with religion.Does that make us all Tories? Even you?

Re: Ukraine
 

She didn't say she had first hand experience....and I didn't accuse her of that either, re-read my post. I was referring to her comment in post 54 where she said she had NO first hand experience.

I didn't claim that I don't draw conclusions from what I read, nor did I claim my thought processes were different than anyone else..again re-read my post...I stated that she pretty much ignored a researched argument with a wave of the hand, whilst giving a contrary opinion without offering any evidence at all.

Re: Ukraine
 

My apologies for misreading your post.
It was something of a rant though(and more that a little scathing)...and you make no mention of whether you misinterpreted what Lucysgirl was saying about the links which Margaret provided.

I am afraid that I am guilty of sometimes doing that.....I will read some links, but perhaps not others....and you have to be just as cynical about some of the links that are posted on Accyweb(though this is not a slur against MargaretR).
You make your choices about what to believe based on the information you have at hand at the time.. and on your own life experiences...they must colour your beliefs in some way

Also, you did imply that Lucysgirls post was an indication of Tory thought processes without giving a reason why you made this assumption.
I am not the only person who has interpreted the post in this way.....and yes I know the internet is not a good way to get subtle nuances across...so maybe we all got it wrong.

I hope we can still be friends.....I do enjoy your posts.

Re: Ukraine
 

Yup..guilty as charged..it was a rant. But in my defence, I get a tad irritated when someone dismisses an argument as irrelevant without disproving it.

Anyway Lucysgirl gave a fairly coherent response to my harangue :), and fair play to her for doing it without ranting back.

The 'typical tory' was a bit below the belt..but..meh, I'll take any opportunity to attack a tory no matter how tenuous :p

As for us falling out over a forum post...ain't never gonna happen

Re: Ukraine
 

Now why would he wish to do something stupid like this? I might agree that Putin wants a stronger Russia, probably so that he can cut a more dashing figure on the world stage, but not something that has proved unworkable first time around. Folks tend to talk about US, or Russian, or Chinese military might but it exists only in the minds of armchair strategists. America's last successful military adventure was, let me think, .... oh, yes, Grenada. And for Russia's one has to go back to about 1945. In Afghanistan, the Soviet Union employed massive military force, without the niceties of "rules of engagement", and they made an even more dismal showing than did NATO.

But beware! Grand Fenwick is mobilizing.;)

Re: Ukraine
 

I haven't the foggiest. Maybe he's got a crystal ball and wanted to keep intact as much of the old Union as possible which could match the size/strength of the Yellow Peril?

Re: Ukraine
 

And the USSR should be a summary lesson to all those who want a yoked United States of Europe. It doesn't work....it causes lots of problems and inequalities that cause serious resentment.

As for your rant Guinness...it is allowed once in a while......except I didn't have you down as the 'ranting' type(whatever that is).
Normally your posts are measured and well reasoned.

Pleased to hear that my'specsavers' moment can be overlooked(or at least forgiven).

Re: Ukraine
 

I believe you may be referring to my post where I said that I'd followed her link to the three year old thread concerning misleading news (and incidentally saw some interesting research had been done) but admitted to MargaretR that I hadn't fully read all the four pages or followed all the pertinent links contained in those pages in detail. I whole heartedly agree with her about not jumping to conclusions about official propaganda that's put about.

I'm sorry you feel I dismissed the point she made but I can assure you I am in accord with everything MargaretR said about not believing everything one sees or hears. Ultimately, this could mean that when I sort the chaff from the wheat to my own satisfaction, I might just be at odds with others on a subject :)

Re: Ukraine
 

I don't understand how an illegal 'government' in Kiev can claim that a referendum in Eastern Ukraine is illegal. I think this will lead to a peaceful partition of Ukraine or (more likely) a civil war resulting in partition.

Re: Ukraine
 

Civil war it is then! And Obama ramping up the pressure with additional military in E. Europe. Doesn't he realise Putin is NOT Sadam & he really does have WMD?

Re: Ukraine
 

I think it's going to be a long hard haul to settle the situation. From the BBC website which lists a timeline from 1917 it's evident that the ethnic people have been battered between pillar and post and even taking a pinch of salt whilst reading the wikepedia site it's even more entangled the further back in history you go.

BBC News - Ukraine profile - Timeline

Russians in Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess it will be a case of "softly, softly, catchy monkey"?