Battle of Orgreave
 

'Battle of Orgreave': Probe into 1984 miners' clash policing ruled out - BBC News

And they accuse unions of having a closed shop!!!

Funny isn’t it how the ‘passage of time’ defence doesn’t count with 30 year old+, historical high profile criminal or abuse cases that the police relentlessly pursue yet, magically, it’s used when pursuing the alleged guardians of the law themselves.

‘Some of the officers are retired’….hey, so were Klaus Barbie and Adolf Eichmann…hell Jimmy Saville and Cyril Smith were dead!! Didn’t stop ‘due process’ did it?

Passage of time didn’t stop them chasing Ronnie Biggs for 30+ years.

This is a disgraceful decision, especially as there is adequate documentary and visual evidence to at least open a public enquiry.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Have South Yorkshire police ever got anything right, seems to be a catalogue of inadequacy

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

The problem wi it is Guiness the party that was in power then, is in power now.:rolleyes: An enquiry should be the minimum into Orgreave, no question.:mad:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I was watching footage of the police assault on the miners on TV yesterday and it was worse than I remember. The violence to the miners was well over the top, they went steaming in smashing skulls indiscriminately. The government were determined to destroy the mining industry and crush the unions at all costs. It was barbaric. This is one piece of history today's government will want to keep buried. Thatcher had total contempt for the working class, I doubt she lost any sleep over it!

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I witnessed women wi broken arms, head bandages oer in Yorkshire, the previous day the police had been yon n smashed up a soup kitchen n truncheon ed the lasses. can never recall the news showing that .:mad:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

That's terrible but doesn't surprise me, it's about time Thatchers government and the police at that time were brought to account. It'll be a big whitewash though.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

To be sure there was good n bad on both sides during the strike, But the point is workers were brought too account. The police Never were, never will be imho.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Perhaps we should also have an inquiry into the Peterloo Massacre if we are prepared to spend incredible amounts of money on inquiries into historical events:rolleyes:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Yer losing the plot Barrie, should lawbreakers get away wi it, if it was 30/40 yrs ago? still i expect yeh to defend what thatcher did.:D

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

If you insist on dragging up shiite that isn't within living memory, why not go back to the Harrying of the North?:rolleyes: That gets us back to the eleventh century. Which, come to think of it, is where George Osborne seems to get most of his ideas on economics.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

And what time limit do you put on it Cashy - 30, 40, 50, 100 years, where do you draw the line?
What is achieved except a great deal of expenditure of time and money - the perpetrators will be in their dotage or dead.
The way the Yorkshire Police acted was no doubt criminal, but so were some of the actions of the miners and the print workers in their strike.
Scargill's intention was to bring down the government, Thatcher's intent was to break the Union bully boys tactics. He carried on building Arthur's Seat while they were on strike and his members were selling off their coal rations - I witnessed the Notts miners who were still getting there allowance and selling it on - I was one of their customers on Friday evenings in the pub in Flintham Village

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

So what is your time limit?
Whatever number you pull out of your head you will still exclude those who have grievances abount earlier incidents

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

How about within living memory, as described by Eric? What time limit would you put on pursuing peadophiles?

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Thats about the size of it to me, Probably thats too long if yeh wanted to let the "NAZIs" off.:rolleyes:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I doubt fer a min, if Barrie would agree to letting those off? but to select who yeh think should get off,is the thin end of the wedge, do that n clever lawyers these days would easily argue even Nazis should be freed.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

One could impose a limit dictated by common sense.

Of course, when one goes back even to 1819, which is not really all that long ago, one has to strip Peterloo of most of its historical context. Trouble is, it then loses most of its impact as argument and becomes mere rhetoric, such as "Remember the Maine. Fortunately, regression isn't infinite. Eventually, one has to bump into the Big Bang ... not a good idea ... when time itself was created.

And I doubt whether many still have grievances about the Harrying of the North, or the Peasants Revolt, or even the fierce, often violent, struggle to establish unions in the first place.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

The Police, of course, are totally innocent of any wrongdoing during the miners dispute. Even those amongst them who were earning so much in overtime payments they felt obliged to sellotape their payslips to their riot shields in order to provoke the striking pit workers.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Was 2 bragging about how much overtime they were earning in a pub doorway frequented by miners in Burnley also.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I'm still not too happy about the hard times the Normans gave us English.
Adding insult to injury- they were French!

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I think that you will find that the only people who received the colliery fuel allowance were members of the UDM. By the way it did not prick your conscience that you were buying very cheap coal at the time did it. I bet you didn't say to the guys you were buying it from, No thanks ( Because you were getting it damn nearly free.)

All you read below is FACT. I know because I was part of the management team running a coal mine in the Midlands. I was also part of B.A.C.M who run the mines.
Also if it wasn't for members of the Mine Deputies union. NACODS. Your poxy government would have closed all the mines earlier anyway. All the mines that had no members of the NUM working, always had a mining official underground ( Deputy) 24/7. That way the integrity of the mine was always maintained.
So its not Just about the NUM. It was about the whole communities that surrounded the mining industry. I spent 31 years in the mines, Bankhall, Hapton Valley, Huncoat and Coventry Mine.
Reading things about mining by somebody who hasn't got a clue makes me laugh because you are so ignorant of the facts.
200 police surrounded Coventry Mine. 25 pickets stood in a peaceful and silent protest. I would not allow the police onto the mine premises has I had seen them earlier waving pay packets the the pickets.
Every one of them were from the Met. You haven't a clue mate.

The government and National Coal Board always claimed that only 20 or so Collieries were to be closed. The NUM knew the number was far higher despite its vehement denial by MacGregor and Thatcher. Today shows just how little regard was actually given to the people of the country who were deliberately misled by senior politicians and civil servants.

The painting of the miners as the aggressors and the out and out denial of a secret hit list of more than 70 collieries earmarked for closure are now proven as lies. Mrs Thatcher was involved in the wilful destruction of the coal industry and micro managed the government’s side of the strike, prepared to use any possible measures to win – whilst lying to the country about the scale of the closures programme and simultaneously scheming, no not even scheming to use the armed forces, she did use them to ensure victory.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Well said, Mog. Some people make a habit of spouting off without getting their facts right.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Normally Tories.:rolleyes:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Yes you are right there Cashy, They stick out a mile mate.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

It's funny, it's much harder to identify Labourites. Mind you I don't suppose there are many of them left now;)

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I dont suppose there is, but Tories stick out like a sore thumb.:rolleyes:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Of course they do!
When you know right is on your side you have to stand up and be proud!:D

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

There is nothing about "mining" in my post, only the action of some miners, perhaps you should take a little more care in reading it.
No I didn't have any attack of conscience when buying coal from them - I had a wife, three children and an ailing mother to provide for in a house that only had solid fuel heating.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Yes and so did loads of other people have families to support, that's why they went on strike to fight for their jobs and to stop the closures of the coal mines.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

To be honest in my view those that supported the action Thatcher took, I have wiped better off the sole of my shoe.:(

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

You have such a picturesque way with words!

Let's put aside the emotion and remember a few facts.

Arthur Scargill. Started life as a Communist, like his father. Although of course he ended up Labour, presumably knowing Communism wouldn't give him the power he wanted in the UK.
Spent some happy times in the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
Brought down one democratically elected Government in 1974.
Decided it would be good to bring down another in the interests of 'political militancy'.
Good at stirring speeches, I always expected him to shout 'Sieg Heil' at the end.
Made four mistakes- a megalomaniac can't afford that many-

1- Lost three pro strike ballots (one by a 60% no strike majority) so decided to bring the minors out without a ballot. That divided the miners and weakened his support.

2- Gave the government plenty of warning of his plans to shut down the whole country, not just the pits. The Government had time to take precautionary action.

3-Called the strike in Summer, worst time for a coal strike.

4- Miscalculated his opponent, Thatcher was as bloody minded as him.

The Miners strike wasn't just a strike, it was a class war to bring down a democratically elected Government. Both sides knew whoever lost was finished so both sides fought hard and dirty- that's war.

He lost and was finished, Thatcher got re-elected and stayed on until she also became a megalomaniac.

It was good to see how well he survived the disaster he caused though, kept his free cars(didn't he like Jags?) and his free £34,000 a year rented second home in London.

Also nice to know he didn't disagree with everything Thatcher did. He tried to buy his free flat, at a discount, using her Right to Buy scheme. Missed a million or two there. Sad.

Now there's someone I wouldn't like on the sole of my shoe.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Very politely put Gordon - of course the people who are continually stepping on crap find that it is usually their own overflow as they are so full of it.

A couple of points that I must look up:
1. How many died at during the miner's strike as a result of Thatcher's actions?
2. How many died in Iraq through Blair taking us into an illegal war?

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Pathetic comparison, everyone who has been on here awhile, know damn well i have slagged Blair oer that n even gave up voting labour cos of him, so its you thats talking crap, used to think yeh were reasonably bright, sorry for the mistake.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Strange, that, I found a photo of him giving the Fascist/ Nazi salute.
Must have been having a forgetful moment.

The Morning Star,a paper somewhat left of left, reported that the NUM received $1.1 million from its 'Soviet Comrades'. Stalin would have been proud.

Another fact-Harold Wilson closed 290 mines losing about 330,000 jobs.
Thatcher closed 160.

Careful, cashman, don't step in a Harold Wilson.:D

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

That's just the way we Tories are, Barrie.
Another reason why we stand out like a sore thumb;)

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

As your by line says - I wouldn't dream of arguing with you:rolleyes:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

What happened under Wilson is nothing to do, or nothing like what we are talking about at Orgreave,:rolleyes: but if yer gonna use pathetic distractions, Beeching destroyed the Railways before that, and he did that to line his own "Road Haulage" pockets,:rolleyes: aint just tories that can dig up the past, decent people can as well.:rolleyes:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I fail to see what any of the current discussion has to do with the OP?

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Well it was a tory government who decided to deploy excessive police force and turn a blind eye to the violence and intimidation……and a tory government presiding over those who decided that the thugs dressed in police uniforms who used this excessive force to maim, manhandle and have a ‘grand day out kicking the crud out of the northerners’, and anyone else within reach had no case to answer.

The ‘ten bob tory millionaires’ using words like ‘scargill’, and ‘loony left’ to go off on a tangent and derail the simple fact that the police were out of control on this particular occasion are typical of the ‘I’m alright jack, stuff you, loadsamoney’ thatcherite yuppies of the day.

For the one who used to be in the RAF, which pre-‘this tory lot’ was a force to be reckoned with….now it would have real difficulty shooting down a paper plane made by a 5 year old, the other..well..meh!..just wait until you need the NHS or LCC care services for a loved one……

But hey…hale and healthy…decent pension or job…you can afford to be a tory…it’s only when things go wrong that you say….’Oops!’

The most diehard new labour supporters agree that Blair was a warmongering criminal…..it’s about time that the most diehard Tories agreed with the evidence that is abundant on the internet and by eye witness accounts, that there is a case to be answered here.

Oh and Barrie…in answer to how long do you go back…..it’s simple…as long as there are eye witnesses who can give evidence!

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Unfortunately, as this thread shows, when some people get over excited they can become rude, offensive, personal and abusive.
In a face to face confrontation this can turn to physical violence. With 10,000 miners facing 5,000 police at Orgreave that's obviously what happened. As cashman said there was good and bad on both sides, none of it acceptable.

As it happens I do rely a lot on the NHS for the care of a loved one- it's very good.
Relax, the terrible Tories haven't destroyed it yet.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Which brings us back to the opening post that there should be a public inquiry. This thread only became "over excited", as you put it, when a reference was made to the Peterloo Massacre.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Not to mention condescending and patronising….

You know the difference between a socialist and a thatcherite?

A socialist will readily accept that their leadership screw up from time to time, and don’t mind admitting it….whereas the thatcherite will always glorify, excuse or divert the argument away from hard facts, documentary and eye witness evidence.

And still after 3 pages of posts not one single tory has actually said that the decision to not pursue criminal actions by the police because of ‘passage of time’ is fair and just!

Paraphrasing Burke… bad guys can only win when the good guys let them….

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I can't really comment on this as I don't know anything about it. Would you say the Wiki page is accurate as to what happened?

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Orgreave

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Dunno if its 100% accurate. but its fact that pickets were escorted by police into position, anyone that knows anything about industrial actions, knows full well that normally pickets were "Prevented" from joining. it don't take a brain surgeon to figure it out.;)

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

We've never met but you've obviously worked out I'm a healthy, wealthy retired banker or similar. Clever of you!
If only.
We have a Tory Government so it's obvious not all Tory voters are healthy, wealthy retired bankers, just ordinary people who couldn't risk another disastrous Labour Government.
If 3 Labour Governments hadn't borrowed past the hilt and let the bankers go wild we could still afford a decent RAF.
By the way, only you have mentioned the 'loony left'.

I checked my posts, I simply quoted facts which I checked out and no one has disputed them so far.
Facts can't be condescending or patronising, they're just facts even if you don't like them.
As for attitude problems- look in a mirror.

If three separate Labour Governments didn't feel the need for an enquiry or to pursue criminal actions against the police , why should this Government, or you or I, feel a Labour Government got it wrong?

It ties in with most of the info, Neil, although you'll find different figures for the numbers involved. I saw 10,000 miners, 5,000 police but it varies.
Interestingly the only quote from anyone who was actually there is from a member of the 'Women Against Pit Closures' group. No bias intended I'm sure and she was lucky not to get a real crack on the head.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

It was the Independent Police Complaints Commission who rejected the call for an inquiry, so what have previous Labour governments got to do with this?

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

They were Governments, they could call any public inquiry they wished to. You'll notice this is what the campaigners are now calling for.
The IPCC investigates miscarriages of justice and criminal actions etc. by the police with a view to prosecutions or disciplinary action.

So nothing was in the way of a Labour public inquiry.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Its not about which party refused n inquiry,:rolleyes: Its about what actually happened n the simple fact NO Tory i'm aware of. has commented what Thatcher did was wrong. simple as, it speaks volumes to me.:(

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

OK, simple question, Gordon: do you think there should be an inquiry? Yes or no?

We know Barrie thinks not because it's comparible to the Peterloo Massacre.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Well at least Barrie gave a good reason.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Perhaps it's because they don't agree with you?
I say they, there are two of us I think but don't forget the silent majority.;)

[QUOTE=Michael1954;1143069]OK, simple question, Gordon: do you think there should be an inquiry? Yes or no?
/QUOTE]

An IPPC investigation- definitely not.
After 30 years no miner could stand in court and say 'That man is the policeman who broke my arm with his baton'. Or 'That's the man who rode me down with his horse'.
Just as no policeman could say 'That man hit me with a brick' or 'Those are the men who emptied a scrapyard on our heads'.
There were at least 10,000, maybe 15,000 people involved. No one knew who did what to who, it just all happened. So an IPPC investigation would get nowhere.

A public inquiry?
Well, I assume the Labourites on here were quite happy when 3 Labour Governments never mentioned starting one, it's never been brought up on here before.
So why the sudden fervour now after 30 years?
Oh, I see, it's a Tory Government.
Well, we all accepted no inquiry under 3 Labour Governments, we should accept it under a Tory one.
Seems fair?:D

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

An inquiry has nothing to do with there being a Tory Government in power. The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) received a referral from South Yorkshire Police in 2012 containing allegations of assault, perjury, perverting the court of justice and misconduct in a public office. This referral was made following a BBC documentary, which claimed officers may have colluded in writing court statements, using excessive force, and giving false evidence in court. The IPCC spent three years before coming to the decision the allegations could not be pursued because of the passage of time. According to a BBC report, South Yorkshire's Police and Crime Commissioner Alan Billings described the decision as a missed opportunity that did "disservice" to former miners, police and the IPCC.

This is what this thread is all about, as stated by the thread starter. Arguments about Labour Governments or Tory Governments are irrelevant. The discussion arose because of the IPCC's decision not to pursue this.

Does that answer your question about why the sudden fervour after thirty years?

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Notice Gordon has declined to answer yer original question, musta been too difficult.?:rolleyes: Plus he says its never been mentioned on here before, i say bull it has, on some thread years ago.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Fair enough, we'll leave the question of a Government inquiry by any party, you say that's not the question so you must be happy without one.
The IPCC , as you say, have had a three year inquiry and reached their conclusions so that's the end of that.
PCC Alan Billings- the successful Labour candidate for PCC and a noted anti- Thatcherite in his time( see Faith in the City, called 'pure Marxist theology' by a Cabinet Minister). Politics does keep coming up, doesn't it?
So one inquiry you don't require and one three year inquiry you've had.
That's it, isn't it?
Don't say 'No', this thread is getting boring.:eek:

I'm sorry, cashman, as far as I can see I have.:confused:
If you say this subject has been raised before I accept that. It must have been before I joined and life's too short to check back to 2004.

One thing we can all agree on is that we'll never agree so rather than us go on forever I'll call it a day on this thread.
As I said, life's too short.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

The question was n inquiry, not of any particular kind, as i'm sure yer well aware? cos whatever yeh are, stupid aint one of em.:rolleyes:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I didn't say I would be happy without a Government enquiry. The point I was making is it's irrelevant to argue about previous Labour Governments or the present Tory Government. If Labour had won the last election, I would still say that a Public Inquiry was now justified. The IPCC have taken three years to decide that they can't pursue this because of the passage of time. If that is a reasonable argument then we wouldn't have had the Hillsborough Inquiry, would we? I don't keep bringing politics up, but you do. For your information I voted Conservative in the last election, but so what? At no point in this thread have I made this a political issue, but at every turn you have gone on about three Labour Governments versus the present Tory one.

If you find this thread boring, then don't contribute to it. But if you are going to contribute to it, you must expect, and allow, people of a different viewpoint to express their opinion.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

How did you learn to write without learning to read?;)

I just had to ask.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I could ask the same question of you. At no time in my posts did I say or imply that I would be happy without a Public Inquiry, but you made the assumption that I had.

You mentioned earlier that people can be become rude, offensive, personal and abusive when they get over excited. I didn't realise you were talking about yourself. Try to calm down.

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

I do apologise!
I assumed as you voted Tory you might have a sense of humour.
Wrong again:eek:

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Silly man, I wrote my last paragraph with a smile on my face! Cutting repartee and all that!

Re: Battle of Orgreave
 

Really? You live and learn, even at my age.
Obviously too subtle for me!
I said I'd call it a day on this thread and I meant it until you tempted me.
So unless I think of some 'cutting repartee' or you tempt me again that's it.