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Greater Accrington Heroes.
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Finally after 25 years of searcing up and down the country, searcing in Public Record Offices, old news papers, Churches, Schools, Pubs, Clubs, Institute, Factories, an other places for Memorials & Rolls of Honour, several computers later, I've got my books back from the binders, what stated out as just names 127 pges its now 3 volumes over 900 pages a ream of paper, when you include the faces nigh on 2500 of them.
I've been tryin to add a picture of them fort best prt o 10 mins, had to give up. Now its done it twice. am givin up tu much bother |
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Well done Retlaw.....you deserve a medal!
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Wow.....that is beautiful.
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Well Deserved.;)
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(many times when int library's not by staff, who were always eager to help). photographing every article in the old news papers, Accrington's Blackburn, some Burnley, some Chorley, 1000's of pics, all to be downloaded an twiddled about, faces extracted touched up, and resized, printing em out tu read and trype into tother computer, which still runs on DOS6, hour on hour till me backside aches, often siting wi me nut in me aands, "what the ell am I doing this for,"an having to put up with my uncle Mycroft, urgin me on, Holmes's don't give up. Well ave done it, not proud, just relieved a can take mi time with my next project, I once down loaded whilst on Ancstry all the 11th East Lancs Medal Cards, over 4000 of them, now lining them up straight, resizing, cleaning them up entering missing details, arguing wi Kew Records, when the've wrongly indexed or misspelt um, an they can be right snotty buggers. Scrattin me ead again an again, why am I doing this, well John int Library thinks its good idea, an given me a load of index cards to stick em on. roll on 2918. |
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A truly magnificent effort Walter.
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I can see why you would be relieved. I would imagine it has been a mammoth task...a bit like eating an elephant with a mustard spoon......but now it is done you damn well should be proud. It is an amazing achievment and one which would have defeated a lesser man.
I don't know if anyone has ever thanked you for doing this research, but if they haven't then let me be the first to say 'Thank you Walter' may your legacy be recognised for the great achievement that it is. Oh and if you need any decipherin' doing...I'm your man. |
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Well done Walter, a mammoth task.
What a nice (and well deserved) medal. Dare I ask if there is an electronic version or ever will be? Many researchers use web based material more and more these days so perhaps the next task is to make it web based. |
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Remembering Our Heroes. July 1st 2016, 1st & 3rd Pictures Luke (grandson age 6) helping with the crosses of rememberance, the two Accrington Mascots at the Serre Memorial. and Luke receiving my medal from the Mayor of Bapaume
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It is very sad to think that Army Medics would do that......betray colleagues and deprive loved ones of their effects and the memories that those effects hold. |
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May I add my congratulations and admiration for the mammoth task you have completed Walter. You have done those heroes proud. Well done.
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Golly gosh my mate. You kept that quiet :-)
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Walter, I'm so glad you've decided to put all those years of work in print.
Now it will never be lost and no-one else can ever claim it for their own- you have claimed it in print! |
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Which means those brave lads will be remembered for their deeds and you will be remembered for your perseverance,patience and making it possible for those who came after to trace their menfolk.
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If you have it in print and have typed it in via your older PC then its in an electronic format already.
However your reticent to take it that step further and publish it online which I can see you have good reasons for. What are you planning on doing with this information now? Are these books going to be available for purchase? for view at any exhibitions? What about the accringtons past thing in the arndale? The Pals display in the town hall? It would be a shame if after all that hard work you did not either profit from it by selling some (I suspect that was not your intention) or let others know of it all. Still your choice. |
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(H.B.C. Had completely ingnored any reference to the Pals after the 50th Aniversay.) They did the same to me. I created a time line of the Pal for Bills 2006 exhibition at the Haworth, comparing what they we doing thro out the war, with other events taking place, walking thro the market one day just after its refurbishment, and there was my time line on board in one of the empty stalls, I blew my top, because I'd copyrighted it to Bill, they took it down. They don't have a copy of the Pals Casualty Book July 1st 1916, when my daughters took them to France they were under strict orders not to let any one see them, if they had those books would have been like oily rags wi thumb prints an wet finger marks of page turners, the only person who was allowed a preview was an old work mate of mine who lives in France, and is my eldests God father, she said there were tears in his eyes when he was looking at them, and was very reluctant to hand it back. I wouldn't trust that lot int clown hall with used toilet paper, individually they appear to be nice people, but collectively, nuff said. My copy of the 1916 disaster, and the other books the Greater Accrington Heroes, are printed on a special paper that the government uses to prevent photo copying, and its not cheap over £30 a ream, so if any one nicks my books they can't do owt with them. Please don't go an say for the people of Accrington, I spent nigh on 30 years at the Fire Station, and ruined my health for the people of Accrington, they've had enough out of me. |
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If your not going to share this wonderful tome of informations, can I ask what you are planning on doing with them then?
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hear all see all say nowt, Sup all eyt all pay nowt, an if tha ever does owt fur nowt do id fur thi sen. Id may be a Yorkshire sayin bud ids a gudun |
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I hope that your grandson realises the trust you have invested in him, and that he follows your wishes, but the truth is, after you are gone you can do nothing and will not care.
If the books are copyrighted then they are yours even if they are held by someone else. It remains your intellectual property and no one else can put their name to it |
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Copy right on books these days is very hard to prove, as to where the robber got it from, you get a reminder of it in practically every book you buy, or borrow from the library, but that doesn't stop folk photo copying what they want, without thought of all the hours authors have put in creating the work, I've never heard of a case going to court, an it could be dammed expensive if you lose. |
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Well, I am not sure about your concern regarding copyright of intellectual property.
There have been recent big court cases with regards to who wrote what song(and yes, I know it isn't quite the same....but it is still written work) with those found guilty being made to pay eye watering damages. I know that isn't really your concern, but it just seems a shame if the work you have done cannot be accessed in a controlled way. There must be some organisation out there that would be trustworthy in ensuring that your work was available to view, but without the possibility of it being stolen or mistreated. |
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I agree, there are ways to prevent the IP theft AND share the information with the rest of the people who lost family etc.
I am sure that there are many who are trying to trace their family history that would be very keen on this information. You could even license it perhaps to the ancestry organisations or the National Archives etc. I note that there is already a lot of information at http://www.pals.org.uk/ |
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We have been researching our family history for quite some time and archived information has been the only way we have been able to piece it together. I appreciate that you do not want to publish all of your research but there is a lot of inaccurate information out there. Not correcting the inaccuracies will simply lead to people, who are researching in the future, quoting the wrong information which will get further corrupted if there is no definitive work, such as yours, which contains the correct painstakingly researched truth. Now your research is in book form, the custodians of the work can easily direct anyone claiming the research as their own, to your published work.
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Have you ever read Bill Turners works on the Accrington Pals, a work of that magintude could only have been done by some one who is retired with over 3 years of researching up and down the country hours and hours of writing and typing, no computer, Bill didn't like them. Starting at page 212 is a list of names & service numbers for the 11th supplied by Fergus Read, when Bill gave me a copy of his book, I indexed all those numbers in a database, & didn't like what I saw, so Bill & I spent every Thursday at Fulwood in 1990 going thro the 35mm films of the East Lancs records which had just become available, we found 41 had never served in the 11th E.L. 67 had been missed, several men with two entries on differnt pages who had been renumbered, after a stay in hospital and were retrained,. Bill & I met up with Fergus again, and Fergus gave me his original notes, which I still have in a folder. The owner of that web site will not answer my question where did he get his numbers from, when at that time only those 2 sources were available there are a heck of a lot of original Pals missing, several who never served with them. Starting in 1999 Bill and I started going down to Kew Record office again spending several days at a time twice a year till 2003, going thro records & other documents looking for more info on the Pals. Since Bill died my research has found a further 527 men who served in the 11th, and whilst on Ancestry I down loaded over 1000 sets of service records & practically all there Medal Cards, which I am now sorting, cleaniing up and printing on them, who they were and how long they served with the 11th, and the state they are in on Ancestry, means I've got at least another 12 months work ahead before they are finished. Before Bill died we signed a document with the library staff, in which al Bills collection would be kept under lock an key, only two people to have keys, the head librarian & Me, along with a list of those to be denied access, only the librarian knows where their keys are kept, so the temp staff on duty can't be conned into openin Bills & my cabinets, and if the library is to close those cabinets will be coming here, if I've turned my toes up my youngsest says she will take them. |
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So your determined to keep the information all to yourself, sat on a shelf doing no one any good.
OK if that's what you want, if you don't want others to be able to have accurate information and to leave them to the inaccurate info that's on the sites you mention then so be it, totally your choice. I think it's a shame though. |
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I am at a loss as to why a lot of time effort and no doubt expense went towards research which will never be published into the public domain. All those errors will still be there long after we are all gone, I think we owe it to the lads who gave their lives for us, to ensure the documents marking their sacrifice are at least accurate.
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I took on the task because to me a bloke with out a hobby is gonna die an early death, and I've always had hobbies since I were a kid, sat ont kerb edge carving Spitfires an Huricanes out of lumps of fire wood, Its a hobby and keeps me occupied, just as I'm at present with all the 11th East Lancs medal cards sorting them out making them presentable with their full name rank and number. |
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This is the very reason why something like this would IMHO be best published online.
There are organizations that would do this for you from the data that you have, you have said you did it on a computer, well that puts it in an electronic format that can be converted into whatever form is needed to make a copyrighted web based document. Of course there is always the possibility that bits of data will be pinched by others, that's why going with a big organization is best as they have the ability to get it removed from other sites if copyright is breached. No one uses paper versions these days, it's all electronic. Walter, please don't think that we are having a go at you about this, we salute your hard work however some of us also think that if it were us - we would damn well make sure that others had access to this work too. Share it, take the credit. Then anyone that does copy it their host can be pointed to the correct copyrighted site so they are removed. Well done on it, just please consider thinking outside the box a little more, don't just rely on experiences from ages ago and consider the relatives of the hundreds of the Accrington lads that you have data on. I know what I would be doing with this, I wuld be sharing the knowledge. :) |
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As for the Medal Cards, I've told John in the Library they are for the William (Bill) Turner collection, and will help John with queries, though when you know there are over 4000 men who served in the 11th, where are all the descendants, none of them are clamouring. most of those asking int Libray and Haworth would love to clain an Accy Pal, and get really upset when told they are not. One woman got real mad at me when they put my banner up on Broadway, I was stood there and she pointed and said thats my Grandad, I asked his name, sorry he is not on that picture, he didnt serve with them. |
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I don't really think people are preaching to you Walter, they probably think, like us, that it is a great shame that such diligent work should be kept locked away from future researchers. I am sure the people you have helped trace ancestors on here are very grateful for your assistance but how are future generations going to find their information.
There is a small army of people currently entering data into the national BMD indexes. They are doing this both as a hobby and to assist future generations with their research. Without that index and other sources, we would not have been able to carry out a lot of our research. |
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Thing is simple to me, the dirty tricks thats been played on Walter by various people, which some of these tricks have been mentioned by him on here, i can fully understand hom taking this position, its fine for those who dont know or dont remember to pontificate.:rolleyes:
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I can understand entirely that Walter has been let down before.
It is entirely up to him what he chooses to do with this information, but like others I feel that it is a shame that people who want to know if their grandad or uncle was among these brave lads may have a fruitless search. They may be led astray by the misinformation that Walter tells us is out there masquerading as fact. They may never get the truth. There must be some way to allow access to the information, while keeping the research safe. In the end there is only one person who can decide right now. That is Walter. |
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Cahy fully understands my problem wi the x spurts (drips under pressure) Margaret thanks for your responce I don't think future researachers will find any more info than I've, infact a lot om my sources such as Churches, clubs, pubs an Institiutions have vanished either discarded, lost or been stolen, before I could save them,Just think how many Schools, Institutes an Pubs Working Mens Clubs that were in existence in the old days that have vanished in the past 20 years, I did manged to photo most of them, others copied by hand, but I got em. |
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To name a few I couldn't get at, Wesley Chapel in Abbey St, Wesley Chapel in Union St, Oak St Congies, Woodnook Baptists, some of the more obscure religious houses in Avenue Parade & Whalley Rd.
One R-O-Hnr which has led me a dance is the Swedenborgs in Abbey St they have a R-O-Hr but reading it and the info, you would think the war would have been lost without them, luckly for me when I was on Ancestry I managed to download near 3000 sets of Servive Records and 1000's of Medal Cards, and they give a completely different picture. I also indexed all the 1918 Absent Voters lists, the powers that be would have us believe the soldiers themselves provided the information, what a laugh, there are 100's of errors, wrong servive numbers, wrong regiments, and even wrong addresses, I've also got 2 who died at the battle of the Somme in 1916, who filled in their forms, who filled in the forms for P.O.W's jerry ?. Some of the worst tripe came from the Acc Gazette, sometimes 6 - 12 months late with casualty reports an then full of errors witb mens rank and number, luckily I was able to aquire most of the East Lancs Rolls when I worked at Fulwood, approx 32500 entries. All those errors in different sources is probably one of the reasons it took so long, checkin, checkin & more checking. Some of the other things I've had as well from people, My Grandad was a pal at the Somme, no such bloody thing, I'f all those had been Accrington Pals, the Pals could have savaged jerry to a standstill on there own. |
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Cum un ev a luk, if tha dusnd lyk id, tha con alus wipe id off.:) Si thi Freddy Kruger. |
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Walter, I am sure that your FB page would get quite a bit of traffic from those of us who remember the lanky dialect. I have great respect for you, but I will not be going on FB at any price. I think I might be allergic to it.
Keep up the good work. |
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I can understand and appreciate that, (I think that if you are publishing factual research, it is generally accepted that any resources used are mentioned and the authors of such research have their input recognised by attribution. I am sure if I have got the wrong end of this stick there will be someone along in a minute to rectify my ignorance)but it still seems a shame that there is no one the Walter trusts enough to be a caretaker of this research when he is no longer able to do it himself.
I know he is going to trust family members, but the further down the line you go the less it will really mean to them, as they didn't put the britches ar$e steam into the foot slogging work that this research has entailed. Anyone who has done any research of any description knows that is a lot of sifting the wheat from the chaff and Walter has done that with the advantage of a lot of background knowledge. |
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If it were my work, I would want to share it.
Allow others who have an interest to access the information. (As Walter has said this information is only of interest to a very small group of people. Which is why his books are not a commercial print proposition)If they wanted to reproducece it then they would have to ask for permission and attribute the information to my research. Walter has made his decision and that is how he wants it to be. That has to be respected, whatever any of us think. |
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Most of my sources, all the ones beging with WO3 are down at Kew, hours an hours sat searching, some of the names seemed to jump ot of the page at me, appen it was because me nut wer full o nowt but names an numbers. I can't see many being cvered by copy right, and as for the ones at Kew the are not theirs, they are just supposed to bve looking after them. Public Record Offices
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Walter, I really don't know how your patience held out.
It was a labour of love and no mistake. I did only a little genealogy and it fried my brains and boggled my mind. |
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Some time ago Retlaw you gave me information that answered a query for me and made sense of some family research I was doing. I was very grateful and I was most impressed with your knowledge then. I am absolutely blown away now with what you have achieved with your Accrington Pals research. Huge congratulations on a job well done and books printed.
Over the years so many good men and women have fought for their country, far too many paying the supreme sacrifice, but as time goes by they are often forgotten, except by their families. Walter, by devoting your time and effort into this very worthwhile project you have ensured that at least the ones who were the Pals are remembered, that their names will live on in perpetuity in your books. You have a right to do with it all as you wish of course and on the one hand I can definitely understand your reluctance to give public access to this information knowing what some people with no scruples or morals have done in the past in claiming your work as their own. However, on the other hand I think it is such a shame that the names and information of those gallant Pals should be hidden away again after all the painstaking hours you have spent bringing them to light. |
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Eric have a slug of your favourite brew on me. |
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No Eric, you're getting the wrong end of the stick.
For starters it's not an argument, there are several people here pointing out to Walter that now that he has compiled such a great source of corrected information it would be a shame to keep that information secret, hidden from public, private - call it what you will - as has I think been said by others, not letting the relatives of all the the accy heroes have access to corrected information leaves them with the incorrect info. If we did get down to the library would we get the more accurate information that Walter has? Not according to what Walter has been saying. So people will still think that their grandpappy was part of something that he wasn't etc. It's all down to Walters choice, and if he has chosen to not let anyone else know the content unless they ask him (and how are they going to know to do that?) then some of us think it's a shame. We are not arguing, we are not calling Walter in any way as he has done great work with this, we would just encourage him to reconsider maybe releasing this corrected information at some point so that those that are seeking it can find it. That's all, no smelly equine stuff involved. |
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I think eric is 100% correct,and as for how would they know how to ask him, thats ridiculous, i did a few years back on behalf of my missus,and i dont know him, in fact to my best knowledge,we have never met,:rolleyes: he went out of his way to help, and this was WW2 which he aint researched like WW1. in fact he found out for us were her uncle was buried in france and even the grave, which enabled us to go oer and pay our respects, so to say how would people know how to contact him is ridiculous.:rolleyes:
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Retlaw also gave me information, for which i was truly grateful, of both of my Grandfathers, one of whom i never saw, he was killed when my mother was only three years old.
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Cashy,
How is asking how people would know to contact Walter ridiculous? Would you care to advise how the average relative that is not part of this forum so does not know Walter is supposed to know to contact him? Searching for the Pals brings up several hits, although some mention Walter the website I mentioned above is more prominent as it the national archives. It's not ridiculous its just a plain fact that if Walter is not "out there " as the other sites are then he is not going to be the no1 source that he obviously is now. Some of you are being way too closed minded about this and not thinking outside of the cliche that exists here. Great job Walter, keep it up. |
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If they aint members then probably dont know anyway, if not and they are interested they would no doubt ask at the library , they would get info yon, and it is ridiculous not knowing that fact, if yeh were interested in getting info, or is that too much to expect?:rolleyes:
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Any one with any grey matter & with a knowledge of Accrington would contact the Library, or if they've even more grey matter the Haworth or Ossy Mills, which both have displays of Accrington Lads. Some even have the sense to contact the East Lancs museum at Fulwood, all of them will contact me. So where's the problem.
I'm protecting my work from those I know would rip it off with no hesitation, to prop up their own ego's, You are a comparative newcomer to all this, which has been going on for years. Ask your self Why would Bill Turner have all his collection locked away, and a list of those ego trippers not allowed in a file. Even Bill knew them then and he died in 2007. |
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And it is an "argument." I select my words carefully. Out of the approx. 600, 000 words in this most beautiful language of ours, I came up with this one. And I'll stick with it. I understand Walter's position because I, myself, have done some serious research I know the work ... most of it boring, some little of it fascinating, even less of it appreciated ... that goes into such a task. The rewards are few ... I got ten useless letters to stick after my name, and a couple more to stick in front of it:D Walter owns none of the information he possesses ... it's all in public domain. What he does own ... ok, let's use a cliche ... are the fruits of his labours. What he has assembled is a mine of information. And we have no right to criticize him for standing guard at the adit. An aside: I remember the bloke in my avatar taking me to Mercer Park one summer afternoon. When I asked him what the angel on the memorial was pointing at, he told me that she was showing the soldier the way to the bog. Now, some may consider that this was showing disrespect for the fallen. Maybe. But he fought at Passchendael. I think this gave him the right to amuse his grandson. He was my hero.:alright: |
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Walter, when you are no longer able to supply the information which has been painstakingly gathered over the years, the only source of reference will be the website you loathe so much. Visitors will assume that the information contained on there is accurate and will mislead researchers for years to come.
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That angel is still there. If you followed her finger to find the bog you would have to pee in the canal....But yes, you are right. He had earned the right to poke fun at the statue...and anyway you (even then) would be wise enough to know that he was jesting.
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Now, why does that not surprise me Eric :)
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Hello Walter,
Would you mind looking this up for me? Thomas James Lingard was my G.Grandad's brother. I have conflicting info saying he was in the 12th bn East Lancs AND the 11th bn. Can you clear this up? Thanks. Steve |
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Thomas James Lingard enlisted 19th Sept 1914, age 19/6, into the 11th East Lancs as Pte. 15512. N.O.K. Emily Walker (mother) 109 Charter St. As a result of a medical condition he was transferred to R.Coy 12th East Lancs. Thomas was then discharged not fit for Military or light duties. Discharged at Chadderton Camp 9-10-1915. S.W.B. 103283. Awarded a gratuity of £25. What was his brothers name, did he serve. |
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Yes, you could be right, but I would hazard a guess that even way back then. You were an inquisitive boy. Yes,it may have provoked more questions. Questions that perhaps he did not want to go into.
My grandfather fought in WW1 and even when he had had a few gills(he couldn't hold ale) he could not be drawn on any of the things he saw or experienced. He used to say 'that's for me to know and thee to wonder about'. As children we didn't need to be saddled with this information. (That does not mean we should ever forget.) |
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His brother (my G Granddad) was born in 1901 so was too young to join up. Thomas was born in 1898 so he was only 16. |
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Your Great Uncle, was just many of the young lads round here who enlisted under age. many were copped by there parents and they'd to prove it with a birth certificate, many got away with it by a false name or enlisting elswhere, & giving a false adddress. Can you blame them. starting work under the age of 12, only Sunday's off, and looking round their work place, seeing men in their late 30's looking nearer 60. Many of these young lads ended up wounded well before their 17th birthday, only then was their true age revealed, they were then posted to base until 18, they could then be posted to any regiment any where from Ireland to Mesop. |
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Just finished ruutin thro my Greater Accrington Heroes for them as won a medal, sumat our Rusty, the eldest doughter wanted tu know.
234 won a medal, of them 40 got the D.C.M. 17 of them got the M.M. as well, and 1 man got the D.C.M. the M.M. and a bar to his M.M. Most of em didn't like talking about what they did. Now them are lads you don't argue with. |
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Just finished ruutin thro my Greater Accrington Heroes for them as won a medal, sumat our Rusty, the eldest doughter wanted tu know.
234 won a medal, of them 40 got the D.C.M. 17 of them got the M.M. as well, and 1 man got the D.C.M. the M.M. and a bar to his M.M. Most of em didn't like talking about what they did. One of them, his mates were being hampered wi jerry snipers, so he crept out wi a few grenades, and his trusty rifle, killed all three. Now them are lads you don't argue with. |
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What is this about excuses?
Walter has stated quite clearly that his work will not be made public so when he is no longer able to provide answers, the source will no longer be accessible. |
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I did all this for my entertainment as a HOBBY, how many times do I have to say it, hobby, I'm inquisitive and I wanted to know, not because you wanted to know, I have to solve puzzles and find answers. End off. |
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Can I just add, Walter no-one has any desire on you popping your clogs or meeting any makers, long may you enjoy your hobby.
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Walter....when I get where you are going, can I please be your apprentice?
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