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slinky

24-02-2005 21:33

pope

The pope is very poorly in hospital, poor man. Don't think he will make it much longer.

Doug	24-02-2005 21:38

Re: pope

I was saying to someone tonight after seeing him on the news @ six. If we wheeled an old person out in his state and ask then to perform we would be had up for elder abuse.

My respects to the gentleman. I'm not decrying the Catholic Church but there comes a time to let go of traditions and allow this fine gentleman the peace and dignity in is final months he rightly deserves.

WillowTheWhisp

24-02-2005 21:43

Re: pope

I don't think the fine gentleman himself would expect any less than serving until death. That's just the way it is. Popes don't retire. He has looked frail for a long time. I remember when he was elected and buzzing about all over the place visiting places and people. I haven't seen him on the news today so don't know exactly what he's been doing or been "helped" to do. Was it a balcony appearance?

Margaret Pilkington

24-02-2005 21:43

Re: pope

He is a very sick man.....they have had to perform a tracheotomy to help him to breathe...like slinky I think he will soon be at peace.

vorlon24

24-02-2005 21:44

Re: pope

By all accounts he wants to keep going for as long as possible.

Maybe he gets good death in service benefits?

WillowTheWhisp

24-02-2005 21:45

Re: pope

It does sound very much like he's near the end from what you say.

I can understand where you are coming from Doug, in a time of serious/terminal illness you would expect a person to have privacy and peace.

Margaret Pilkington

24-02-2005 21:47

Re: pope

It would not surprise me if her were not here in the morning. Although the hospital officials said he came out of the tracheotomy very well.

slinky

24-02-2005 21:53

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

It would not surprise me if her were not here in the morning. Although the hospital officials said he came out of the tracheotomy very well.

Yes it is all good and well saying he did well in the op! but a man of his age is going to come up against more problems now ...pneumonia, skin break downs, proplonged recovery.....ect so I am not sure it is the right thing to be doing for the poor man. Not sure they would go to such legnths for JOE PUBLIC well I am sure they would'nt, I have seen elderly people suffer broken hips and they won't operate for the reasons I mentioned ^^^

Margaret Pilkington

24-02-2005 21:56

Re: pope

It does seem cruel to put him through surgery when he is so poorly.....but I suppose they feel they have to do everything they can. Doctors are not good at letting the elderly sick die...especially when they are as important as the pope.

WillowTheWhisp

24-02-2005 21:58

Re: pope

It almost brings us back to the dilemma of just how much do you interfere in a terminal illness of an elderly patient.

Margaret Pilkington

24-02-2005 22:01

Re: pope

That is a real thorny question......who knows, it might even be the popes own request that he be kept alive for as long as possible.

slinky

24-02-2005 22:02

Re: pope

I know this has nothing to do with the thread.....but the person who just sent me karma (no name suplied) thankyou:wave:

WillowTheWhisp

24-02-2005 22:02

Re: pope

Hmmmm. I'd have thought that as a man of God he would want to leave things in the hands of his maker.

West Ender

24-02-2005 22:05

Re: pope

Poor old man, they should let him go with some dignity. I haven't always agreed with everything he has said and done but I respected him.

I don't think it will be long before the white smoke is coming out of the Vatican chimney.

slinky

24-02-2005 22:05

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

That is a real thorny question......who knows, it might even be the popes own request that he be kept alive for as long as possible.

I agree margaret........it is a hard question, I think it comes down to you concience!! I know if I could help but did'nt that would couse me alot of sleepless nights.:(

chav1

24-02-2005 22:25

Re: pope

if he dies does the world end

just curious ive heard in mentioned on tv in the past :-)

WillowTheWhisp

24-02-2005 22:28

Re: pope

Well popes have died before without the world ending. They just elect a new pope.

slinky

24-02-2005 22:29

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by chav1

if he dies does the world end

just curious ive heard in mentioned on tv in the past :-)

Do you know it is funny you say that because no more than ten minutes ago my hubby said the exact same thing WEIRD!!!!!!!!!1

Doug	24-02-2005 22:32

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinky

Do you know it is funny you say that because no more than ten minutes ago my hubby said the exact same thing WEIRD!!!!!!!!!1

What are they smoking, do they share the same supplier. and when can we have some. I seem to remember that they went through 3 of them back in the 70s.

slinky

24-02-2005 22:36

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

What are they smoking, do they share the same supplier. and when can we have some. I seem to remember that they went through 3 of them back in the 70s.

Lmao doug hubby won't remember back then!! he addresses me ''LOVE'' not for a nice reason just because he can't remember my propper name.

Doug	24-02-2005 22:37

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinky

Lmao doug hubby won't remember back then!! he addresses me ''LOVE'' not for a nice reason just because he can't remember my propper name.

Thats because your always on here.......

slinky

24-02-2005 22:44

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

Thats because your always on here.......

Well he works long hours!! I could be up too worse things!!;)

Doug	24-02-2005 22:46

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinky

Well he works long hours!! I could be up too worse things!!;)

I'm not going to reply to that.................:eek:

chav1

24-02-2005 22:52

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinky

Well he works long hours!! I could be up too worse things!!;)

yeah i would be well pi**ed if i found out my woman was sneaking off to knitting classes behind my back :(

slinky

24-02-2005 22:58

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by chav1

yeah i would be well pi**ed if i found out my woman was sneaking off to knitting classes behind my back :(

see there you go!!!! got it in one what i was trying to say ...........tut tut doug:rolleyes:

Doug	24-02-2005 23:04

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinky

see there you go!!!! got it in one what i was trying to say ...........tut tut doug:rolleyes:

Me? :eek: You kinky little knitter. :p

chav1

24-02-2005 23:26

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

Me? :eek: You kinky little knitter. :p

its not the knitting that hurts

its where she keeps the needles that hurts :eek:

slinky

24-02-2005 23:28

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by chav1

its not the knitting that hurts

its where she keeps the needles that hurts :eek:

owwwwwwww I thought people liked where I keep my needles!!!! saving space.:up2someth

Doug	24-02-2005 23:40

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinky

owwwwwwww I thought people liked where I keep my needles!!!! saving space.:up2someth

Now steady, that not Kinky. Thats alittle bit painful if not a little sick.

slinky

24-02-2005 23:42

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

Now steady, that not Kinky. Thats alittle bit painful if not a little sick.

I meant in a little box under the bed saving space in the rest of the house!!!!!! now now doug what did you think I meant??:confused: :D

Doug	24-02-2005 23:45

Re: pope

:eek: Naughty slinky :o lol.

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 06:27

Re: pope

The death of the current incumbent in the Vatican will be followed by the election of two more popes, the last of which will usher in the end of the world. Though as you will be able to see from reading the linked article, prophecy is not an exact science.

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

garinda

25-02-2005 06:37

Re: pope

Will money shoot out of the cash machines when the world ends this time! l spent a very miserable millenium eve in south London with a roll of black bin bags, onl to return home sober, still poor & still living.

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 06:42

Re: pope

I've never really understood the logic of someone wanting loads of money if the world is coming to an end. Where were you going to spend it garinda? :D

Now somewhere I have a book which belonged to my late husband, entitled "The Last Pope" ...... maybe I should have a read of that.

On the subject of prophecy not being an exact science, didn't Old Mother Shipton say the world would end in 1984?

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 06:52

Re: pope

Interestingly it was reported a couple of weeks ago, when the Pope was last in hospital, that news media companies have been feverishly buying up properties in Rome that overlook St Peter's so that they can have vantage points for the televising of the funerary exequies of the current Pope and the election and coronation of his successor.

I now have little time for the religion I was brought up in, but I still take an interest in it's proceedings. As I think I mentioned in earlier threads, I quite like the theatrical aspect of it all.

The current speculation on the health of the Pope puts me in mind of that surrounding the last few weeks of the Queen Mother's life. It is a little distasteful. However distressing it may be for us to witness the decline in his health, and I agree he looked very poorly on television last evening, he may yet surprise us all. In any case, I am sure that, like the Queen, he will endeavor to carry out his duties to the very best of his abilities for as long as is humanly possible. He is a very courageous and determined man. Though I cannot agree with all that he has said and done during his Pontificate, I think that the world will be the poorer for his passing.

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 06:55

Re: pope

Thinking back to an earlier comment about him wanting to continue for as long as possible I wonder if he feels it his duty to defer the end of the world as long as he can in the light of those prophecies?

According to the news this morning he is "serene" but the hospital said they can't yet guarantee a full recovery.

garinda

25-02-2005 06:59

Re: pope

Like others l was shocked to see him on the news still doing his job when l'd want to be in bed if l was him. l suppose he understood when he got the top job that was part of his duties. Still amazes me that this is the man who advized catholics they can wear condoms as long as there's a hole in it, in regard to Aids prevention.
P.S. didn't really spend millenium eve with binbags, though l did feel a bit rubbish the next day!

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 07:09

Re: pope

The other interesting point concerning the Pope is his closeness to Sr. Lucia who died last week aged 97. Who is she? I hear you ask. She was the last surviving member of the three children who were granted a series of visions of the Mother of God at Fatima in Portugal during the First World War (1917?) The children were given three secrets which, the vision instructed, were to be given to the Pope. The first secret revealed the end of the war. the second was the rise of communism, but the third has never been revealed. It is commonly thought to reveal the manner and timing of the end of the world. Asked about the Third Secret of Fatima, the present Pope replied in very guarded terms, asking what good would it do to panic people. However during his Pontificate the Pope has maintained very close links with Fatima and with Sr. Lucia, unusually close, some might say.

garinda

25-02-2005 07:16

Re: pope

Don't know anythig about Sr. Lucia but in 1917 the end of the war could be said to be in sight, even though there were still lots of battles, & the Russian revolution was just starting. Perhaps they were just very intuative kids?
Children say the darndest things.....

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 07:19

Re: pope

I must admit that I'm intrigued by things like this ---- end of the world prophecies and such like. A few weeks ago we saw a man wandering round Blackburn wearing those boards proclaiming "The End of The World is Nigh". Hadn't seen one of those for ages.

Having said that, it's also probably a bit pointless trying to speculate because the Bible itself says "of that day and hour no man knoweth, only my Father which is in Heaven"

Doesn't stop me wanting to have a delve into it all though.

garinda

25-02-2005 07:26

Re: pope

l think most phrophesis were shown up to be mumbo jumbo when the millenium past off peacefully. l remember they said Nostradamus also predicted the end of the world then. The only shocking thing that happened was the Queen doesn't know to cross your hands when you do Old Ang Sine.

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 07:26

Re: pope

I must correct myself here, the third secret is available from the Vatican.

here: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...fatima_en.html

It is a lengthy read, but interesting.

garinda

25-02-2005 07:44

Re: pope

Just read the text, thanks for that. Bit dissapointing regarding the third secret though wasn't it?
l think there were special mushrooms growing in Fatima in 1917.

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 07:49

Re: pope

What do you mean "disappointing"? What were you expecting, direction by Steven Spielburg, full glorious technicolour and a cast of billions?.:D

garinda

25-02-2005 07:53

Re: pope

You must admit after nearly a century of trailers the main feature was a bit of a let down. They admitted that themselves. Reading it made me thankful not to be religous, l only worshop the ground l walk on.

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 08:02

Re: pope

I'll have to come back for a read of this when I have more time. Thanks for finding all these things A-b. I love 'em :)

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 08:23

Re: pope

Yes, I must agree. One always expects these things to be more sensational than in fact they are. But do you not agree that the publicity machine of the Vatican is astonishing? Especially considering, as you pointed out, that this is a story that has been trailed for 83 years. What would it be worth if it could be translated to Hollywood?

garinda

25-02-2005 08:52

Re: pope

The link was amazing in its professionalism, if only they spent a little of what they spend on spin, on poverty, much of it in Catholic countries, l'd be happier.
By the way anyone looking for same sex hook ups, the Vatican City is one of the most crusiest places on earth!

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 09:43

Re: pope

Hmmm, I had a friend who attended The Venerable English College in Rome. He reported much the same.

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 10:13

Re: pope

I've just come back home and read it and it is rather an anti-climax isn't it?

garinda

25-02-2005 10:46

Re: pope

It was an anti-climax, all that sealed envelopes & stuff, & then it really didn't say anything at all. Perhaps it relates to Charles/Camilla weddding- the church of England will collapse & we'll return to Rome.

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 10:51

Re: pope

You may not be far off the mark re the CofE - there's a schism (is that right?) according to the news this morning but it's not about Charles and Camilla it's about gay clergy. The Anglicans have asked the Americans and some other branch to disassociate themselves from what I could gather.

fireman

25-02-2005 12:10

Re: pope

I think the pope would take the view that if help is available to ease the sitoation then accept it, as when his maker calls him he will go willingly. God bless this lovely man.

stanerlee

25-02-2005 12:15

Re: pope

nothing against the pope, but what's with the vatican cover up on the state of his health?
he's an old man and we should face facts, but the vatican refuse to believe he's on his wayout. it's a shame because he did good in world war 2 as a young priest, a large number of poles owe their life to him.

Tinkerbelle

25-02-2005 12:18

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanerlee

nothing against the pope, but what's with the vatican cover up on the state of his health?
he's an old man and we should face facts, but the vatican refuse to believe he's on his wayout.

But wouldn't we still be criticising the Vatican if they released a statement saying the Pope won't be with us long?

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 12:21

Re: pope

How have they covered up? They have kept us informed of his hospital admissions and operation haven't they?

stanerlee

25-02-2005 12:21

Re: pope

you've got to realise that the vatican is more secretive than stalinist russia.
i like honesty from public bodies and i wouln't be bothered if they told us that he was on his way out

stanerlee

25-02-2005 12:23

Re: pope

[QUOTE]How have they covered up? They have kept us informed of his hospital admissions and operation haven't they?
yes willow, but they haven't been entirely honest about his true condition have they?

Tinkerbelle

25-02-2005 12:23

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanerlee

i like honesty from public bodies and i wouln't be bothered if they told us that he was on his way out

You might not be bothered but a statement released like that could and would upset many Catholic people

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 12:24

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanerlee

you've got to realise that the vatican is more secretive than stalinist russia.
i like honesty from public bodies and i wouln't be bothered if they told us that he was on his way out

We don't get told that other people are on their way out do we? We are usually informed when they are ill and eventually when they have passed away. In some cases we don't even realise famous people were ill until they've pegged it. I think it would sound a bit like hovering vultures to announce to the media that someone is on their last legs.

stanerlee

25-02-2005 12:26

Re: pope

[QUOTE]You might not be bothered but a statement released like that could and would upset many Catholic people.
you're implying that catholics haven't got a mind of their own, i can't see how it can hurt to point out the facts.
if your'e granny was terminal wouldn't you like to know

slinky

25-02-2005 12:27

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinkerbelle

You might not be bothered but a statement released like that could and would upset many Catholic people

It's gonna happen one day though............the only thing that is 100% hereditary is death.

fireman

25-02-2005 12:27

Re: pope

We are all as bad as the media discussing this mans passing before he actually does . Leave him in peace to pass on nayurally without all this speculation.

stanerlee

25-02-2005 12:29

Re: pope

[QUOTE]We don't get told that other people are on their way out do we? We are usually informed when they are ill and eventually when they have passed away. In some cases we don't even realise famous people were ill until they've pegged it. I think it would sound a bit like hovering vultures to announce to the media that someone is on their last legs.

willow you are right, but we did'nt bring the story to the media. but now it's here the truth would be nice.

Tinkerbelle

25-02-2005 12:31

Re: pope

[QUOTE=stanerlee]

Quote:

You might not be bothered but a statement released like that could and would upset many Catholic people.
you're implying that catholics haven't got a mind of their own, i can't see how it can hurt to point out the facts.
if your'e granny was terminal wouldn't you like to know

My Nan was terminally ill with cancer and even after she had slipped into coma i thought she would recover!! It's called denial!!!

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 12:33

Re: pope

Well maybe they are keeping us as informed as they can with the information they have from the doctors. I mean we know he's had a tracheotomy and we know he wasn't able to speak but we do know he had a "serene" night.

It sounds like the sort of thing hospitals tell you about your own loved ones:

"How is he?"
"Comfortable, well as can be expected."

I remember the late Queen Mother saying that her interpretation of the word "comfortable" and the hospital's were very far removed.

stanerlee

25-02-2005 12:35

Re: pope

people deal with grief in different ways. but facts are facts and the vatican bury these facts. not just about this but about loads of issues.

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 12:37

Re: pope

Like the 3rd secret of Fatima?

slinky

25-02-2005 12:38

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

Nurses are usually almost sure when someone is dying, it is just NOT good practise to actually say this to the family of the DYING person, because above all until that person is pronounced dead no-one knows for sure. I agree with the queen on this one.

stanerlee

25-02-2005 12:38

Re: pope

[QUOTE]Like the 3rd secret of Fatima?
please expand, i'm not aware of this one

Doug	25-02-2005 12:38

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinkerbelle

But wouldn't we still be criticising the Vatican if they released a statement saying the Pope won't be with us long?

I think we must be realistic and maintain our senses in this matter. This gentleman in indeed a lovely man and deserves to die with the grace of his stature and with dignity. He may himself wish to maintain oversight of his church until the end and he deserve credit for that, but to believe no matter how religious an individual maybe that this man will survive the spring let alone the year is stretching it. I have no doubt that the Vatican as set in motion it’s great wheels and the call among the bishops to identify their candidates for the next incumbent to the holy order.

This man is dieing of that their can be no uncertainty, what should now happen is that this gentle man’s life should be celebrated for like others have already said there is something worth celebrating irrespective of your religion. I myself was born into the Church of England and believe in god and an afterlife. I also have a bent towards witchcraft but maintain a healthy respect, understand and care toward all the worlds’ religions. Let this man rest in the knowledge that he holds something lost not only on his Church but on many previous Popes. And that is the love and respect of many peoples and religions throughout the world.

Tinkerbelle

25-02-2005 12:41

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

I think we must be realistic and maintain our senses in this matter. This gentleman in indeed a lovely man and deserves to die with the grace of his stature and with dignity.

I totally agree with you Doug

slinky

25-02-2005 12:42

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

Doug would you like TONY BLAIRS job because I'LL vote for you!!:D

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 12:43

Re: pope

I'll second that.

Tinkerbelle

25-02-2005 12:44

Re: pope

And my vote too Doug

WillowTheWhisp

25-02-2005 12:44

Re: pope

lol I was actually seconding Tinkerbelle's post ther Doug, not suggesting that you put yourself up for PM.

stanerlee

25-02-2005 12:45

Re: pope

i'll third it.
like i said earier the man done good in ww2 and saved a few lives

Doug	25-02-2005 12:51

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by slinky

Doug would you like TONY BLAIRS job because I'LL vote for you!!:D

Regretfully I must decline with grace; :) I’m too much of an irritant to be anything other than myself. :o But thank you anyway. If I had not being talking to such serine ladies I’d had just said Bo**ocks. :eek:

garinda

25-02-2005 13:32

Re: pope

l hope he's made comfortable too, like l said l was shocked seeing him on the news last night, obviously very ill, but made/ helped to perform his duties. He may have done good work as a preist in WW2, but he's dealt tragically with AIDS. His denial of advice as led to thousands of death, & millions living with HIV in Africa. Like l said yesterday, the Vatican issued a statement in the 80's saying if you must use a condon it had to have a hole in it!

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 13:38

Re: pope

>> I have no doubt that the Vatican as set in motion it’s great wheels and the call among the bishops to identify their candidates for the next incumbent to the holy order.<<

Point of order there Doug. The Pope is chosen by God, acting through the Holy Spirit, who inspires the choice of the College of Cardinals sitting in Conclave. The Bishops have no say in the matter. Canvassing for the Papacy, in the way that one would if one were seeking political office, is a mortal sin and is forbidden . Theoretically, any catholic man can be elected Pope, though it is more usual to select a Cardinal-Priest.

Doug	25-02-2005 13:47

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Point of order there Doug. The Pope is chosen by God, acting through the Holy Spirit, who inspires the choice of the College of Cardinals sitting in Conclave. The Bishops have no say in the matter. Canvassing for the Papacy, in the way that one would if one were seeking political office, is a mortal sin and is forbidden . Theoretically, any catholic man can be elected Pope, though it is more usual to select a Cardinal-Priest.

Accepted. My respects.

garinda

25-02-2005 13:48

Re: pope

Who sat on the College of Cardinals when Peter became the first Pope? Who could he not canvass, as there weren't any catholics?

Acrylic-bob

25-02-2005 13:51

Re: pope

Peter was chosen directly.. "Tu est Petrus"?

lettie

25-02-2005 15:08

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanerlee

if your'e granny was terminal wouldn't you like to know

It is obvious that his Holiness is a very sick man. Anybody who has watched the news lately can see that. As for the Vatican/media not telling the truth. Why should they? Is this man not entitled to the same amount of medical confidentiality afforded to us all? Just because he is a very important public figure does not entitle the world to know all of his medical details. If my granny was terminally ill then yes, I would like to know. It would however, be her choice who was told of her condition and not the choice of the medical/nursing staff, bishops, media or anybody else. :)

Sara	25-02-2005 17:00

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireman

We are all as bad as the media discussing this mans passing before he actually does . Leave him in peace to pass on nayurally without all this speculation.

Quite agree with you there fireman.

fireman

25-02-2005 17:24

Re: pope

thankyou Sara glad someone does. Certain topics should be left and not discussed until the time is right. Now I dont think is the time.!

Less	25-02-2005 20:08

Re: pope

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

the Vatican issued a statement in the 80's saying if you must use a condon it had to have a hole in it!

That seems sensible otherwise how could you put it on?

As to the main topic I hope he isn't suffering too much discomfort.
:(

garinda

25-02-2005 20:19

Re: pope

Touche! Although being as pure as the driven snow l can't offer you any further instruction.

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