Hows this for law and order?
 

I know this is not Hyndburn but it must serve as a warning to good do'ers

Teen Responsible For 38 Per Cent Of Towns Crime (from Lancashire Telegraph)

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One nut case doesn't mean we should expect an epidmic.

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The point is that if this problem is not dealt with properly and with the full force of the law it will become endemic.
The epidemic is already with us.

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What a pathetic punishment for everything he did. They should have banged him up for a couple of years. He wont stop I don't suppose so he will be locked up soon enough. Why didn't the courts same themselves the trouble ( and his next victims ) and just do it the first time.

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The problem is that asbo's for teenagers like this can be seen as an honour within their groups. Its something they gloat about, they aren't ashamed of it.

Also one researcher said a huge mistake is with calling troublesome groups 'gangs' as it gives them a much bigger status, which gives them more reason to live up to the label.

Asbo's dont solve anything in my opinion. Teachers who have to deal with pupils like this in the most extreme circumstances have the ability to inform the police of the threatening behaviour and it is often with lads like this, an assault, to treat teachers in such a way. I always wonder why teachers don't just enforce their rights more often in this manner, if the police dont take it seriously i'm sure teachers can inform education boards and their trade unions on how to deal with such a matter and if needs be their solicitors?

Anyway he obviously wasn't dealt with soon enough so he was allowed to get away with doing the damage, which should've been stopped sooner. Why should he feel threatened by an asbo when he's obviously been breaking the law for ages? Breaking his asbo isnt exactly that much different other than being punished even more.

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what they need is a good hiding!:D
i wouldnt have dared do anything like that in my teens!

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Surely the first step should be to work with the young man to find out WHY he is behaving in this way and WHY he feels his eahviour is acceptabl. We might then be able to address these issues effectively rather than simply criminalising him and dumping him, and I might add, any future offspring on the scrapheap.

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:(
But that isn't allowed these days.

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Cor.. sounds like a proper villian.. breaking park benches, banned from Tesco..Ron and Reggie Kray watch out!!

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Would the asbo have been his first offence ? I guess they would have already gone through the soft touch process.

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Nothing to do with 'soft touch' its about wanting to actually deal with the cause of the behaviour as there are always causes- to do otherwise is to fail and that failure impacts on everyone.

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Thank god!

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they what to have big fines and see if there mum and dad,s pay it for them

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Don't bring God into this.
If he had received a few clips round the ear by the local bobby maybe he would not had ended up that bad.

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And maybe he would- never seen any logic in this "in the good old days" type of argument- we are living now not then.

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But now was informed by then, we would not be here now if it wasnt for what happened then. Then, then, has a lot to answer for.

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just curious , since the miscreant is still 'under-age' what compensation for car repairs/damage etc. is available to the victims of his actions , i.e. all the cars he vandalised , can the owners sue his parents ? since it appears he was still living at home do they the parents have any responsibility to pay up ?
Since parents are usually required to pay for errant footballs breaking windows will this young lads parents be held to the same standard ?
Or is there a scheme available for crime victims to make a claim to some 'criminal injuries board' for recompense ?
thanks :confused: :confused:

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Where did you get that gem of philosophy from? A Christmas cracker? "Then" was better in the sense that there wasn't the epidemic of crime we suffer from now and a nasty, vicious little sod like this would have been slapped down.

Unfortunately, lunatics like you have taken over the asylum and this is why we have arrived at this sorry state of affairs. :(

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wyn i couldn't have put it better.;) sorry am unable to give ya karma.lol

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i say bring back corporal punishment, the reasons why kids are like they are today is because they can do what they want and dont have to worry about the consequences, they get away with it and they know it!

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Well said Wynonie (karma given).

Brian

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Rubbish!
On what are you basing the 'epidemic of crime' certainly not in reported crime stats or British Crime Survey- or is it just an opinion?
Advocating violence against anyone including a 'nasty vicious little sod' as you put it, is pathetic.
As for the 'sorry state of affairs' we are in- emigrate then if you have such a problem with it.
I have not descended to the level of name calling ignorance you seem so ready to lapse into as you have done on previous occasions- an education is such a marvellous thing- (sarcasm is much better)
Have a nice day!

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No of course you couldnt because original thought is not really your thing is it.

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So you're saying that crime is no worse than it was 40/50 years ago? As you know so much more than the rest of us about it, perhaps you'd like to produce statistics to back this up?

When I said "slapped down", I was speaking metaphorically. What I meant was that he should be locked up for a long period of time in extremely spartan conditions to protect the public from his appalling behaviour. Doubtless, you will be recoiling in horror at this prospect as I'm sure in your eyes, he is just a poor, misguided youth who needs a little understanding.

Yes, I must admit emigration does seem tempting when confronted by you and your like, because I know that your softly softly approach to criminality has made this country a much worse place to live in over the years. But at the end of the day, I would prefer to stay and fight my ground in the hope that one day the will of the silent majority of ordinary, decent people may prevail and criminals will receive their just desserts.

Finally, I have to say that I very rarely resort to name calling on this forum; however, for you I will make an exception - you, sir, are a sanctimonious, arrogant prig.

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oh of coarse,you still have not come up with your answer on how to deal with these cretins. you remind me of Humpty Dumpty.

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Yes crime has increased in the half century time frame you identify. Society is much changed also with differing pressures, differing influences and differing problems.
You classically assume that the alternative to your 'hang em and flog em' brigade is to leap to the opposite end of the spectrum ie 'the softly softly' approach. You seem to suggest that locking people up in spartan conditions for a long time is the answer- again not backed up with evidence. We have more people in prison than ever before and you feel that we still have major problems- you cant have it both ways surely.

'Sanctimonious, arrogant prig'? The stock response of the undereducated when faced with anything outside their narrow frame of reference. Its not arrogance its intelligence. (Now thats arrogance!)

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theres many with intelligence,few with common sense.

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A custodial sentence would clearly be right in this case BUT it will resolve anything. His behaviour will not be challenged, his cognitive processes will not be addressed and he will not be rehabilitated. The sollution I would argue for is a well resourced, well funded altertnative secure estate that would enable this work to be undertaken on a longer term basis. Sadly whilst politicians are scared of being innovative due to the blinkered views of you and your ilk we are a long way from this sollution.
We will get there without you its just sad that it will take longer and the problems will get worse. Sadly what you cant even see is that you are part of that problem- why not be part of the sollution for a change.

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What??
A degree from the University of street smarts doesnt go down well on a job application though does it.

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gee it must be great to be as smart as you, what you suggest is great on paper, but in the real world we all know these funds will NOT be available,much as you would hope,its you who are blinkered if you think they will,so people have to cope as life is,NOT as how you wish it,me and my ilk may be part of the problem, but rosebud YOU and your ILK ARE the problem.

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Forget all the flannel; in other words, you admit crime HAS gone up. Well, in my view, crime has gone up because of do-gooders like yourself who have advocated a kidglove treatment to criminals and have, in fact, placed the needs of criminals above those of their victims. And just how much of a deterrent is prison these days with TVs, computer games and other facilities? Perhaps if prisoners were kept in harsher conditions, they would think twice about getting themselves locked up again.

But what the heck would I know? After all. I'm just a poor, undereducated soul with a narrow frame of reference. It must be wonderful to have your masterful insight and keen, probing mind, Rosebud!

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There should be a comma, after uneducated.;)

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Oh, by the way, Rosebud, solution has one l not two. Obviously. English wasn't part of this wonderful education you had! :D

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Surprise surprise I disagree.
The reformed Criminal Justice an Immigration Bill goes soem way to starting to address these issues and begin the process of this change- in quite major ways in the youth criminal justice system. Expected time frame to this being passed by Parliament- probably by end 2008.
Also the Youth Justice Baord has this year undertaken a massive amount of work in challenging the manner and nature of juvenile incarceration.
The ball is rolling.
If you feel, truly feel, that its 'great on paper'- dont settle for our society not pursuing this standard just beacuse its the harder path. We dont have to 'cope' with life as it is we have the capacity to change it for the better. The glass is half full.
We live in an amazing country with amazing history and with an amazing capacity to adapt and change- why sell ourselves short?

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Crime has gone uo in the 50 YEAR!! time frame you initially asked about but has fallen over the last 5 years. Are you seriously comparing Britain 2007 with 1957?
You have NO idea about the treatment I would advoctae of offenders so how can you possibly criticise it?

Yes it is good to have a probing mind.

Finally- apologies for the spelling errors and dodgy punctuation- clearly this bothers you- I am not great at typing and tend to rush- ah well none of us is perfect

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the standard you speak of can never be attained,money or no money,unless these offenders are taught to RESPECT, its that simple is the answer, not simple to attain,but nevertheless its a must.

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No there shouldn't.

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Sadly, this is the sort of waffle that is all too common amongst the great and the good, living in their ivory towers...meanwhile the rest of us out in the real world are having to cope with the consequences of criminality.

(By the way, Rosebud, there should be an apostrophe in don't and there a few other errors I would like to have a word about...).

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No man who worships education has got the best out of education.... Without a gentle contempt for education no man's education is complete.

~G.K. Chesterton

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But yes it can - RESPECT as you very very rightly say can be the cornerstone of this new system. The 'Respect agenda' in schools and local communities has gone some way to start and achieve this.
I agree offenders should be taught to respect- respect others, respect communities, respect property, authority, the law and themselves- what I am saying is that throwing them in a cell isn't doing this- despite the luxurious picture Wyn paints of prison life.
So lets have prisons of course- lets lock people who are a threat up but for christ's sake lets then make sure that we dont have ten times the problem coming out at the other end.

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You're the one who keeps banging on about your education, so you've only got yourself to blame!

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Some of them are already learning skills in prison they can use on their release. Sewing, drug dealing, and buggery, spring to mind.

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Forget the petulance and have an adult debate-
What do you identify as waffle? You might not agree with the content but it is a perfectly coherent argument.

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Not a great deal of call for drug dealing buggers who can cross stitch though.
It would make for an interesting CV though

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ah good we agree on summat,where i cannot agree though is how its progressing in schools,while the teachers may be trying hard they are on a no-win situation cos they are toothless, since the do-good brigade interfered.

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What planet are you living on? This was just another spin-doctored, headline-grabbing gimmick from the Blair government. I haven't seen any sign of increased respect out on the streets or amongst school kids. Back to the sociology textbooks, Rosebud!

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The Parisian houses of haute couture are full of them, and would provide a willing opening for any old lag.

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THAT'S what I class as "waffle". Mundane, cliched psychobabble of the sort that politicians come out with when they're trying to get our votes.

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Lets face it, most, not all, young people are less respectful to the rest of society, than they were fifty years ago. Fact.

They have nothing to be afraid of if they are caught doing wrong. The worst that can happen is a rare custodial sentence, and to most of those chavs that's just a nice little holiday, but with cleaner sheets and better food.

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I have some symapthy with this - we are a long way off achieving it I agree but it certainly has started. I dont think teachers are toothless- I think they have an excetionally difficult job and face a tremendous amount of red tape but still make a huge difference.

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Custody for juveniles in Britain is not rare comparatively with the rest of the world.
Secure Units and Young Offenders Institutues are not holiday camps- can i ask what you are basing this assessment on?

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My past criminal history.

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The difference is I mean it- passionately. Its sad that you see it as waffle and lack the vision and drive to improve things. Never mind we 'do-gooders' will do it for you and just let you know what has happened when we have finished.

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have to agree with you on one point cashy and that is RESPECT is at the centre of it all...

where I will disagree is that it IS progressing in some schools... but of course I can only talk of my two son's school...I am amazed at the respect that is shown by the pupils at the school and also that also includes the teachers giving the kids respect too...

don't get me wrong there will always be issues, but I do believe this school has the balance right between discipline and education.. my youngest son was disciplined recently for what was classed as a very minor thing in many people's eyes, yet he was punished quite severely.

Hooray I say...yes it was a bit overkill but he learnt from it

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Thanks awfully, but we'd rather you didn't.

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I suspect that you have not spent time recently in a YOI or prison- I have. They are not holidaty camps I can assure you. Unless Butlins has also now developed an incredibly high suicide rate.

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We'd much rather you stick to unmasking BNP hotspots.

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the teachers i know think they are toothless rosebud, addmitedly i only know 3, but they teach at differant schools,yes they have an extremly difficult job and do make a differance be it small- their words not mine.as an aside my son is a teacher of degree level and has very little trouble,but then they are older at uni and in the main WANT to acheive, i think thats a crucial differance.

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Don't be so cynical Willow- the majority of kids accept eductaion with open arms. Yes there are challenges within this for certian children but surely we have to keep trying. If we fail a thousand times lets try again.

The answer- and it must be long term does not lay in the hands of any one institution- there must be concerted efforts to work more closely in partnership from schools, police, children, Governmnet (local and national) and PARENTS.
I know this is not easy but a tremendous amount of good work has been done and continues to be done but it needs a concerted effort from everyone if we are going to achieve it.

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thats heartening red, nice to hear, i take your word gladly cos you are not anonymus.;):)

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Clearly there is too high a level of disenchantment amongst Teachers- I too have friends who taech and am aware of their huge frustrations about their work. What never ceases to impress me though is that despite all of this they never resign themselves to just ticking over- they keep on because of their belief in children and young people.
We need to support and do whatever is in our individual and collective power to address what is wrong with the system- standing back from it and slagging it off isn't going to work- we need to get involved.

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i think the people that should be getting involved in the main are PARENTS, theres some damn good uns on here n they do, but too many dont give a monkeys slong as the kids are out of the way,it all comes back to that word RESPECT, if kids start school without a semblance of it, the teachers job is a damn sight harder,how do you change the mindset of THOSE parents? my kids are grown n long gone,my late missus n i got involved big time with there schooling, it wasn't for brownie points it was OUR DUTY.

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Hit the nail right on the head, Willow. The minority of yobs who make life difficult for the decent kids who want to learn seem to be untouchable, thanks to the efforts of Rosebud and his do-gooder chums...but, then again, we mustn't be judgemental, must we? :rolleyes: