Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

I cannot believe what I am reading ... that the Council are offering our Market Hall to be SOLD - they intend to keep the freehold but give a lease of 125 years to an "investment partner"
JUST WHAT IS GOING ON AT HYNDBURN COUNCIL??????

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

I've heard they are going to lease it to a graffiti collective.....sorry, had to do it! ;-)

Seriously - "HBC is the envy of many councils" - Britcliffe. Which councils pray tell - downtown Baghdad, shanty town Johannesburg...Burnley...ahem. The borough's finances are obviously not in the great shape that we are told they are.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

What else do you do when you are strapped for cash - but sell off the family silver?
This is yet another example of Britcliffe and his cronies getting their snouts in the trough. It can hardly come as a surprise that this announcement follows the annoucement last week that Britcliffe had awarded himself a payrise - to £16,000 per year (plus expenses, and you can bet he won't scrimp on those!).

And wouldn't it be a fabulous coincidence, if, when this "Investment Partner" turns up, that there just happened to be places on the board for P. Britcliffe and N. Rix?

Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

The newspaper article says advertisements are due to be placed in the national press inviting bids for the Market Hall, which was built in 1869. It also says that "Hyndburn Council has over spent by nearly half-a-million pounds so far this year. It was also announced this week that the council is taking stock of its parks and open spaces so it can decide if some should be sold.
This is very serious stuff - can this be allowed to happen?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

I'd like to think there is some way it could be stopped - but how?

Once they've sold off the market hall they will lose the income from the stall rents won't they? So doesn't that mean that in subsequent years they'll be even worse off?

How did these people get on the council? Did I vote for anybody who thinks this is a good idea? I hope not.

Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Let's boot all the bad councillors off the council and put some of our Accywebbers on instead. We certainly seem to have more sense!

(Seriously, how can we get rid of the bad ones - I know a "good guy" he could help to sort it all out).

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Fight back. Pressure Groups and a united front in the National Press and a determined assault on the local arena. Find out where the moneys gone and promote a vote of no confidence in the local press. Strength in Numbers.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Probably rent increases for small businesses ie stall holders, then when they have gone under they can lease it out to the big boys and when in a few years we have all gone the young kids will be our age and asking what ever happened to the old market hall?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Needs somebody to organise that. Who's a good organiser?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

I was referring to Doug's post.

I can forsee those stall rent rises to Basf. It doesn't bode well does it?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Too bloody true my friend.........

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

I'm sure Baz understood that willow.....
I would suggest that you canvas those on the site who would be interested in being involved in putting an end to this nonsense, then hold a meeting to see how this situation can be expressed on the local population the need to take action and how they can help and then try to bring in business interests who would be prepared to sponsor or fund your action.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Maybe tomorrow ............... I should be asleep now.

We didn't get very far with the Arndale Clock did we in spite of it making page one of Accy Observer as if it was already saved?

Maybe I'm just feeling cynical because it's late and I should be in bed - got an early start tomorrow for a business meeting.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Good luck Willow. Nobody can say that you didn't try with the clock and I'm sure you and those others involved hold the respect of the rest of us.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Right troops, If you are as p*ssed off with all this nonsense as I am then here is the first thing that we must all do.

Write to your councillor, tell him/her that you are aware of the proposals to sell off council assets, tell them that you object to the proposals. If you are stuck for words feel free to help yourself to any of the ideas expressed by me in various threads here .

Make two copies of the letter send one to your councillor and one to the Editor of the Observer.

Do it now! Time is of the essence and delay will only make matters worse.

From reading various reports on the HBC website, it seems clear that this scheme has it's origin within Scaitcliffe House and Hyndburn First. It strikes me that the time has come for a public call for resignations.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Count me in on that. I shall be writing to both today.

As for the clock - Kipax deserves a lot of credit for the way he tackled the Arndale centre etc, and I still think we shouldn't let that drop either.

This is our town but our views are being ignored. :mad:

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

I quite agree on all those points Willow.
I think we need some sort of list of grievances/mistakes/bungling.

BTW do you know if Nigel Rix ever responded to Kipax's letter?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

I have just joind and have been reading all the previous postings and as a Stall holder all my working life in the Market Hall I am not giving in so easy.
I am attending an invited meeting on Tuesday comming and have been involved in many other meetingd previously. I will report back with what has actually been said at the meeting and not what the chinese wispers say.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Thanks Baconman. We'd love to know what happens from a first hand report.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Hi all.
Just got back from the Market and Council meeting.
As I have been involved in many meetings in the past 10years I was awear that the Council has been low on funds (if any) for sometime.
What I can tell you is that MR Britcliff said....They ARE NOT selling off the Market Hall they are looking into planning for the future and one of the ways is to invite investors/partners to put forward plans to finance this.
Adverts will be placed in / Around November 04 for investors / partners to come on board to refurbish and Possibly take on the management of the market hall in a leaseing capacity.Though the management would be optional.
The off shot of the meeting is that a sub committee of 2 tennents, 2 council officers and 2 chamber of Trade members will meet when all the tenders are in , they will consult with all involved to see if any inverstor comes up with a good and forward moving business plan to improve the Market Hall and therefore secure our Trades in the Market Hall.
We have been informed that out tenancies are secure.um! Rents may be another matter, we will see. By Jan/ feb 05 start looking at narrowing down the list of investors.Then Looking at possibly late 05/early 06 for work to commence on improving the Market Hall.
This all bearing in mind if we get any investors.

The general feel of the Traders was that we do need improvment desperatly and this is one way to look at improving matters. They are most concerned that they are consulted all the way along and not taken for granted.
I personally am cautious but see the need to move forward and improve the Market Hall. I am also not stupid and am not fully taken in by promises until they are written instone.No business can stand still, and with all the supermarkets around we need to make it an attraction to welcome people into the town again.The only other way is sell up and My family have been here for over 80 years, so with caution I will go forward.
Britcliff did admit though that they never claimed to be good managers running the Market and on that we agree.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Hi Baconman. Thanks very much for the report. My initial reaction is that investors will expect some kind of return on their investment - where would this be expected to come from?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

We were informed that the council will be paying them back from a portion of the revenue from the tennents. Hence my rent rise comment

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Thanks for the feedback from the meeting Baconman. Personally I would not trust one word that the council says. They are up to summat! I agree with willow, anyone considering investing would be unlikley to do it from the goodness of their heart. They will want a return on the investment of at least double the base lending rate, otherwise what is the point, might as well keep it on the stock market. Who will be squeezed to produce this return I will leave you to work out.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Thanks Baconman. A-Bob is probably right on his assumptions. I would not trust HBC one bit.

I also agree with you that the Market Hall needs improvements and capital investment, but by attempting to get a sort of partnership is a side-step into being redeveloped or taken-over completely. It use to have stalls upstairs when I woz a kid, there must be some way of extending the upper level as well.

If rents were raised to such an extent that a lot of traders had to move out, the investing company could claim that it was operating at a loss and close it down or turn it into something completely different (say a nightclub? Arena? something that would make quick money?). What is needed is for HBC to keep their nasty hands off the Market Hall.

Is there a Preservation order on it? A Listed Building or so? Something that would assure its continuation as a trading hall would be essential before any joint venture is made.

As you already say...not until it's written in stone!

I love the Market Hall...been going in it since I was a little kid. My auntie Ruby worked on Trickets Ice Cream Stall for 40 years.....It is Accrington....Let's not loose it!!

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

I have a feeling that if the upper level were to have stalls nowadays there would probably have to be a lift for disabled access.

Just imagine - if some of the stalls were upstairs there could be room downstairs for the (ex)Arndale Clock! Now that could solve two problems in one.

I'd hate to see the indoor market go the way of the outdoor stalls. I feel sorry for the outdoor stallholders these days because it's not half as user friendly as the previous covered market which had wider aisles and more protection from the elements. It's only going to get worse as Winter sets in too.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

but also. were will the fish market go? its the best. i think if this is to happen we must act fast we cant let our heritage go to the pockets of britcliffe. this is a disgrace everybody, get involved now.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

>>If rents were raised to such an extent that a lot of traders had to move out, the investing company could claim that it was operating at a loss and close it down or turn it into something completely different (say a nightclub? Arena? something that would make quick money?).<<

HBC's response to falling rental revenues is one of the main reasons that the old outdoor market failed so spectacularly. The reason there were, and still are, empty stalls on the market is, plainly and simply, that the rents are too high. Further increases in site rents to generate profit for an investment company will kill the Market Hall altogether. I would have thought that a full Market Hall paying reasonable rents was preferable to a half empty one paying exhorbitant rents. Cheap site rentals would have traders clamouring to get a space. More traders = more choice = more customers. And hey presto! the market comes back to life!


If we can see this, and the traders can see this, why can HBC not see this?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Perhaps they do see it, but have a hidden agenda! I'm absolutely sure it's a plot to raise more income for HBC. Just what are the other councillors doing? Nothing I suppose!

What is needed is to get Rix and Britcliffe to put their heads on the line!!! Better still.... just sack 'em!!

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Turnover/supply and demand/profit margins - It's just the simple rules of economics but maybe it's expecting a lot of Messrs Rix and Britcliffe to understand economics - with a financial deficit like HBC has.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

What's the financial effect of Britcliffe's scheme as far as the market hall tenants are concerned? Here's a back-of-an-envelope calculation that the accountants on here may wish to comment on. I know there's umpteen ways of calculating an ROI, so I'll keep it as simple as possible


Assuming that the repairs and upgrade of the building will cost £1m, depreciated straight line over 10 years, that there is a seperate management fee of say, net £100K and that the management co are looking for a 15% ROI and assuming that there are 30 tenants within the market hall.

Management co will be looking to recover the initial investment by increasing total rental income by £115K per annum; in addition, it will seek to pass on the net management fee of £100K per annum. Total additional rent recoverable from tenants, per annum, £215K. Average increase of rent per annum, 215/30 = £7,166pds per market stall.

Obviously, there are alot of simple assumptions here...the market stalls are all different in size, the capital upgrade cost may be £500,000 or it may be £5m, the depreciation may be over 7 years or over 25years......any comments, anyone?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Interesting figures, you might also add tax, insurance and other administrative overheads to the total. Whichever way you look at it Tealeaf, it is a really BAD idea and one that will destroy the current make up of the Market Hall traders. When it comes to the point where they are in business just to pay the rent, what will be the point of carrying on?

They will do what many traders have done before them and take their business elsewhere.
This ridiculous scheme is going to be the ruin of our town centre

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Just look at Burnley Market, went Private 5yrs ago, now nearly empty...........

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Precisely, the rents there are ridiculous, which is bad enough, but there are also restrictions on the kind of businesses that they will permit.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

If all our assumptions are correct, and T's numbers make sense. Just what do HBC get out of it?

I think the answer is the last 4 words of the last sentence! And they would have another burden lifted from their overburdened budget!

Never mind the people....they don't count!

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Here's from tonight's Telegraph...

Ambitious plans for market hall

Councillor Peter Britcliffe revealed plans that could see the upper floors of the Victorian hall opened to the public. And flood lighting could one day be used to show off the architecture of the building.

The council are hoping to attract an investment partner to shoulder the financial burden of upgrading the town centre building.

Now Coun Britliffe is inviting investors to come forward with plans, to be considered by refurbishments to the market hall without outside investment.

The market hall makes the council the council.

He said: "It's a wonderful opportunity with the market hall. We have got this absolutely fantastic market building.

"We could do wonderful things with flood lighting and stone cleaning.

"There are also the balcony areas, and a chance of creating art work or a public restaurant. There is so much possibility there that it could be a real draw for Accrington."

But Coun Britcliffe today revealed the council would be unable to carry out any major a profit each year, but the cash-strapped authority, which could be facing another cash crisis this year, does not have the funds to carry out the much-needed work on the building.

Coun Britcliffe met with traders this week to discuss the plans.

He said: "We would love to put a million pounds in but I don't think the council tax payer would appreciate the 33 per cent hike in tax that would go with it.

"We could make this market hall a great attraction for this borough. We are saying come forward with your ideas -- what could you do for this building to make sure it is a success in the 21st century?"

But market traders have revealed they are sceptical, and will consider campaigning against the move.


Well, I said a million last night and now it looks like that's the investment that Britcliffes talking about. For the benefit of any market traders on here, I stand by the rest of the figures, re:rent increases. Stay sceptical lads, and make sure this scheme does not go ahead in this PFI - style format. There are other, more effective ways of undertaking the neccessary redevelopment of the Market Hall.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

On walking through the Market Hall today, I noticed a lot of the stalls had posters up protesting against the sell off.


According to press releases from the Council the stall holders are all for the Market Hall being sold off.


Someones not telling the truth.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Apparently, the stall holders, to a man, object to the selling off of the Market Hall. They held a meeting and even the most staunch Conservative supporters amongst them said that they would never vote for a Conservative local Councillor again! They feel like they've been sold out and they are very unhappy.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Will the council never learn? If they sell the Market Hall that is another bit of whats left of Accy down the drain. What is it with HBC and its selling craze its as though they want to sell everything. What will be next the Town Hall and the council its self up for sale. Mind you HBC could try and sell its self on Ebay and get no bids as they seem to be worthless.

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

According to this week's Observer, HBC have done a complete U-turn and aren't selling off the Market Hall.

Hurrah for common sense.:)

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

Something doesn't make sense, because our market(open air, in the square) was recently taken over by a private managment company. since then it's gone even further down hill.
Why do these companies buy in, then just let the market loose all it's trade and stalls. ?

Re: Our Market Hall up for grabs.
 

By the way that market hall is beautiful and is the best looking market hall I've ever seen, it should be full of life, should have a cafe like the arndale and that clock should be in there. It should already be uplit, its one of your best buildings, that should come under tourism and leisure. Can't you get sponsorship for lighting a cafe and to fit the clock? don't the companies sponsor anything there, Whats about that catalogue company?. most of our projects are funded by the public donating, businesses donating or town council, thas the lowest local level of council with the least budget.