Help with Security Light?
 

Anybody know anything about electrics - cos I dont, and I need to fit a security light in my back yard. Can any one help and earn a few bob.

Cheers
Craig

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

all you need to do is what we did and wire a plug on to it and plug it in hey presto a working security light and you dont need to mess with the electrics.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Thanks for that I will get on with the Job

:thepint:

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

I did the same. I fixed the lamp to the outside wall, drilled through the wall and passed the wire through it. I then attached a 3 pin plug to the wire.
All I had to do then is plug it into a timer which I already had plugged into a socket in my back bed room.
Before I fixed the lamp to the wall, I connected a length of wire to the lamp that I knew would reach the inside socket.

Tip:
Make sure the wire runs below the lamp and runs up to the hole as shown in the diagram.
The reason for this is that if any rain water gets on the wire the water will run to the bottom of the wire and drip off rather than it entering the lamp or the wall.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Thanks Len thats an excellent diagram and explanation. I have seen these lights with the cable running up the wall and thought that a good idea - especially to stop anybody cutting the cable. But on second thoughts and reflecting on your idea about the rain getting into the lamp I think its a good idea to have the cable running a little below the lamp.

Cheers all

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

A really good lot of help that lot of information was!

I know everyone meant well but actually if the light is of any quality at all, it will have come with instructions stating:-


Please follow those instructions too many people end up with disasters just because they follow friendly advice rather than having it installed properly.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Make sure you put a 3 amp fuse in the plug if your going to connect it to a socket using a normal 3 pin plug. Most have 13amp fuses fitted, which is stronger than the wire, the fuse is meant to be the weakest link, weaker than the the cable(flex), so that if anything goes wrong the fuse blows(melts), and not the cable (flex). Also don't try to use flat grey cable with a plug, thats the stiff stuff, get flexible stuff like on your vacumme cleaner, or kettle. 3 amp is up to 690 watt. 5 amp is 1150 watt. 13 amp is up to 2990watt

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

urmm ok.... this just goes to show why I submitted the post in the first place.... because I used a 13amp fuse also I have use the grey stiff cable (which was given to me). So should i change the fuse to 3 amp....
thanks

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

At the very least change the fuse to a 3 amp. most security lights are 500w and 3 amp goes up to 690 watt. There's lots of things can go wrong with a security light, or it can get vandalised or sabotaged, if it shorts out with a 13 amp fuse, the wiring will melt and may catch fire before the fuse blows. The main reason for not using grey cable (which is also available in white) is that its not flexible. When a plugs pulled out, the cable bends and eventually will break, but still connect, which will cause arcing and could cause a fire. The cable bits up to you to decide, do you unplug it very often.
Not relevant to your situation but household grey cable for fixed wiring has also changed it colour coding, It used to be red-live Black-Nuetral Green/yellow -earth, It's changed to Brown-live blue-nuetral Green/yellow-earth. Grey Black and Brown are live on three phase 415volt supplies, they used to be red blue and yellow. Also worth pointing out is that that grey cable shouldnt be used as extensions to connect christmas lights outside, It can go brittle over time in freezing temperatures, you should use blue coloured arctic flex for christmas lights.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Spot on Less.
Listen to Less's advice. If you don't know what you are doing leave it alone. Or the next thing you know we will be reading in the Observer about your house burning down with your kiddies in it.
I don't know which I think is more dangerous. Someone who admits to knowing nothing about electrical wiring or someone who thinks he does.

How can you make that comment when you don't know what size of cable he has used?

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Because the minimum uk size of grey'stiff'cable is 1mm , which is adequate for a 500 watt security flood, and the correct fuse for and grey fixed wiring cable with a 500 watt flood or less attached is 3 amp.
The stronger than the wire comment has nothing to do with what cable the above person has used, it's to do with the light fittings intenal connections between the terminal block, pir sensor, relay, and lamp connections. there is no way on earth a manufacturer is going to use 2.5mm unless the fitting is meant to run slave fittings. 500w works out at 2.17 amp

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

The fact that a 13 amp fuse was fitted makes less's advise scarily correct.Non of the above thought about that when saying fit a plug.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

I think I said enough in my last post.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Makes me wonder how safe all those houses smothered in christmas lights really are. Most of those people have kids. how do they connect them all up. bearing in mind that all plugs and sockets should be protected to at least splashproof ip44 ratings.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

I suppose the trouble these days is that people do attempt Basic DIY such as Electrical wiring, car maintenance, Plumbing, building and construction and I suppose even cooking and I’ve no doubt all of the above, plus others could be potentially life threatening if not done by qualified people. Yet people do insist on doing things them selves.
So what do you do? Do you help if asked or just sit back and watch them set fire to their homes potentially killing everyone inside knowing that if only they had fitted a different fuse for instance, things would have turned out differently.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

thanks for all the good advice I have now change the 13amp to a 3amp which makes me feel a whole lot better.
Cheers

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

People have been doing basic electrical wiring/car maintainence etc for years. In fact I'd venture to say it is less prevalant now than say 20 years ago as in them days people couldn't afford to get the spark/plumber/mechanic out. Nowadays people have more disposible income, are less likely to have learned how to do stuff or in the case of cars you can't do anything as you need computer X to be able to find out whats wrong.

My Dad taught me all sorts of stuff. I was rebuilding car and bike engines when I was 10, I can do basic electrical, plumbing, etc without any problems. I'm happy to have a go at most things as at the end of the day it is down to common sense. I also make sure I know about what I am doing so such as teh correct fuse rating I know that power = volts * amps. hence knowing a light is 500W I can easily work out that it will draw just over 2A.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Security lighting should be hard wired through a fused spur (preferably switched), taken from your ring main. Up to the spur the cable should be 2.5 mm twin & earth cable. After the spur and feeding the light the cable should be 1.5mm twin & earth.

Twin and earth cable should not, must not, be wired into a 13 amp plug! A 13 amp plug is designed to be used with flexible cable.

For your own and your families safety I will repeat:-

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Thanks Less that is a very good description complete with specifications as to how security lighting should be fitted. Hopefully anyone considering fitting their own security lighting may see your post and now think twice about doing it for them selves as it is not really for the DIYer.


Iam a bit of a DIY man. Hehe
And I also advise no one to copy what I do.

I myself opted to use a 3pin plug for my project because 1… I couldn’t be bothered having to start moving furniture, lifting carpets and floor boards to gain access to the ring main. 2 … my security lighting isn’t going to be constantly fully on for 12 or 13 hours, in that case it would defiantly, I think need hard wiring, it’s only intended to be on for a minute or two at a time and I think, in that amount of time drawing 2 or 3 amps while the lamp is on full wack the wiring and plug to the lamp shouldn’t get to hot if at all and hopefully the fuse will protect from short circuits due to moisture, water, semi conductor failure (triacs, thyristors not sure which?) etc. I was also aware that 3pin plugs can get very hot while drawing current, due to such things as, having loose connections between the male and the female brass connectors this causes arcing between both brass connectors (potential fire) plus heat can also be generated between the two brass connectors by their very own impedance (resistance) not as dangerous as arcing but left over long periods could also equal Fire.

The wire I acquired for my project, well to be honest I didn’t have a clue which to buy as I am not an electrician, I don’t know the names or the gauges of all the different wires. I knew it wasn’t bell wire or telephone wire. Hehe So I went down to my local electrical shop told them what I was doing and they kindly sorted me out with a couple of meters of, hopefully the correct wire for the job and at a cost of about 60p or so.
I know what I have done is risky but I would love to know if it's ok.

I have no doubt that there are many other things that could go wrong while wiring up your own lamps. Maybe it would be a good idea if we could point out what some of the dangers are.
I wonder if any professional electricians do actually stick a plug on the end of a wire similar as to what I have done above.
If one has done that for you then let us know.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Is that so we can recommend that no-one uses that elecetrician?

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

It can be done with a 13 amp plug & be safe if everything else is correct, but lets face it the light isn't going to be moved so it should be done as a permanent fixture wherever possible.

A little knowledge makes us all very dangerous, I understand the basics of how an airliner works but I wouldn't presume that I can fly a load of passengers safely.

Electricity can be a wonderful servant, but if you ignore it's basic needs it can turn on you in very lethal ways. Anyone that on their own admission says 'it's a bit risky' is a fool to themselves and all around them!

anyone can throw a bit of wire around and say that will do but a competent electrician saves many lives by ensuring that what he has fitted is safe and secure for the person the property & the environment that the device has to work in.

There are pages and pages of what should and should not be done I have only skimmed the surface, so if someone else comes on and says for example, "Ah yes Less but what about an R.C.D.? ETC.", then I apologise but college lecturers get more money than me so if you want to know more attend a course I'm not going to give anything else away for nothing!


Can I just get back to what I said in my first post on the subject:-

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Its true is that; cars today are so complicated you don’t even have enough room in the engine compartment to put a spanner in so that you can remove a particular part from the engine, so you will probably have to remove all its gadget and stuff one by one so that you can gain access to the part that your are after, or even have to remove the engine from the chase to gain access. So I don’t do cars. hehe
The only things I suppose the DIYer can do for himself on their car are things like servicing and perhaps wheels and break maintenance but even breaks are more complicated than what they used to be but I bet some still replace pads etc.

I used to own an old BSA C15, 250cc motorcycle back in the late 70’s, I had it for two years. I had loads of good fun with that bike, brilliant it was, never run right but very easy to work on/ play with. Spent most of it’s time in my garage. hehe

I’ll tell you what thou, I don’t know about disposable income. I think it’s a case of…. Pay your bill with credit card and pay it back later, bit by bit syndrome (Debt). I don’t think anyone really has any spare cash.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Well said Less.
Brilliantly put ….. and all true, one cannot say much to that.
Nice one.
:)

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

That’s right Neil hehe
My reason is...is so that I can do it for a tenner... or so.
:D

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

Nice to see that someone knows what they're talking about Although 1mm twin and earth would do for 500 watt. There are other ways, you could connect it to an existing lighting circuit, but you'd have to know its existing load its about 1200 watt on 5 amp but thats changed now its 230v, you could feed it back to the fuse box and put it on a new trip. I'd put it on a plug and have done, because that was the easiest way and cheapest, the alternative would be too costly to have been done. done right its nearly as safe as it being fixed, the weak point being the plug of course. With all that taking it out and putting it in things become loose. If you've got a plug that runs hot it needs changing straight away, its faulty, I've just changed one, the fuse in the plug was loose in its socket, it over heated, melted the plug, the brass pin, and the insides of the socket, I changed the lot and its fine now. The main reason for doing it yourself with a plug is of course your not supposed to do it the fixed way yourself , Electrical wiring is now covered by part p of the building regs, which means most work other than simple socket replacements and lampholder replacements require that the person doing the work is part p registered. All bathroom and kitchen work must be done by a person who is part p registered. which is basically another way of the government getting more money out of us. I'm not part p registered at the moment, I only did weekend electrics, I drive in the week 1500 miles a week so no time, based on that i cant justify paying the registration fee, although i hear most of the cowboys are now part p registered while most of the weekend sparkies, the old boys who did jobs cheap for granmas have given up.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

You mentioned “the old boys who did jobs cheap for granmas have given up.”

Well that is another reason why DIYers do it for them selves. Prices professionals charge these days are ridiculous, I’m not saying all professionals but I bet most. A friend of mine was doing his home up a couple of years ago and they wanted to have three double sockets fitted, basically in a row above their kitchen work surface. So they hired an electrician to do the job for them, which was fine he did a good job. He wired the three double sockets horizontally in a row as requested at a give distance covering an area of about 1.5M, my friend had also supplied the sockets because thy were of a particular fancy design. He ran the wire up the wall and tapped into the ring main under the floor boards and also protected the cable by covering it with a length of u shaped plastic/ steel covering because the wall was going to be re-plastered after.
It took him about three hours to finish. He had done a fantastic job, everything nice and level etc. he charged them around £150, not a bad price really but when you think, that’s probably half a weeks wage for most people and for what.... 3 hours work. Hmm

I myself would love to be able to call in a Sparky/Plumber/car mechanic /washing machine repair man/ joiner/ plasterer etc etc . At the drop of a hat to do my small miner repairs, alterations etc but seeing that I may have to dish up half a weeks wages, or more for simple jobs and to the professional doing that job they must be easy. I would rather attempt doing them for myself and I do, often with good results. The bigger jobs that crop up now and then, I have no choice, I have to involve the professional and pay like everyone else, through the nose, thank god for credit cards because with them I can now pay what they demand and pay off my credit card over many, many months.
There must be a lot of jobs out there that need doing, but because of high prices and low wages they don’t get done.
I bet if tradesman lowers their prices to a more reasonable and fair price, like they did in the old days then they would get more work.

I don’t know but these days, it seems to me that nobody really wants to have loads of work (busy). They want to make as much money as they can on as little work/jobs as possible and to do that they have to charge high prices, hence the DIYer. But if people were to lower prices and make jobs more affordable to everyone then they would get more work, which would equal more money. but as I say they dont seem to want more work.

Re: New Help with Security Light
 

What do you do as a job?

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Nowdays I drive a little van about delivering one off parcels, hazardous goods mostly,chemicals, acids explosives, bullets, shot gun cartridges, I've done that for about 8 years now in the week. We own a small transport company, mainly high cube transits. I'm lazy and its easier than doing electrics all work, plus I had a double hernia, which made it impossible to do full time, as full time means no picking and choosing which jobs I could do, during that time I've always took on odd jobs as favours for people. Mostly jobs for the oldies, a cooker, or a flourescent lamp changing, Before I started driving I had my own electrical company, I'm a qualified electrician, C&G236part 1a 1b part2 and 236 4 31 in electronics, bit old now and could do with being updated at college but I keep up with the new regs still. Theres a load of other qualifications in various things I did to help run the business too machine assembly and operating or something like that, IT courses, bookkeeping courses, non of which actually bring cash in . Now Ive had my op and recovered and get settled with someone again I might go back update the qualifications get part p registered and earn some decent cash.

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Does that mean I’ll be goosed if I come to sell my home because I have done the odd, odd electrical job for my self?

I suppose I will have to have my electrical wiring tested at some point?

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

I just found this.

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm

I suppose it will also cost a small fortune to have things tested. You can’t win no matter what you do. hehe

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Afraid so, and more so if it's a terraced property. Unless it has been rewired in the last 12 months chances are it will not comply with current regulations. There is nothing stopping you from rewiring the house yourself providing it is done to comply with the current regulations, but get the installation tested by a registered electrical contractor.
http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/partp.cfm

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Thanks for that park318, much appreciated a good contribution.

You know, you try and save yourself some dosh but no matter what you do you’re still going to get stung. Even thou I’ve done a good and a safe job; it’s still going to cost. I bet the electricians are now happy = more big money, £30 call out and £40 inspection.
******!

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

No theyre not happy, a lot are far from happy with, the cowboys have now got registered, once they're registered they get back on their horse and they're off again, but with a certificate that the public sees as a government approval that they aren't cowboys. The regs are a grey area, the iee wiring regs are now british standard, and any wiring should be to the regs, any electrician doing work to the regs is doing a good safe job even if not registered, the government in its wisdom has made it so you've got to be registered with the niceic or part p registered which again the main company is niceic, if i do any council work i have to be niceic, I even have to have a niceic electrician come in to test the supply I connect the christmas lights to, I cant do it, I'm not registered. Thats not part p registered its niceic registered, even if i got part p i still wouldnt be able to do it. Why is our government giving one company a monopoly.
The grey area is that your allowed to do basic non kitchen bathroom jobs, an extra socket, im not sure how an extra socket is basic cos i wouldnt class it as. but your allowed ye, its an addition with no test certificate, so how does that fit into it. then if you do bigger jobs the council building control is supposed to come out and inspect it, or thats the way i understand it, I suppose that means you'd have to pay for a test certificate first. Only problem is the council havent got the budget, the manpower or knowledge. Answer from the council is just doit, we dont wanna know. Then theres existing installations, how do they know when it was done. How do they know it was done after part p came into force or before when old colour cable is used.
SO what grounds have they got to insist on proof that works been done by a part p approved contractor when the house comes up for sale or other circumstances arise. You get the whole lot tested it passes or fails. What fails gets corrected.
Maybe I'm missing something but I just dont get what the point of it all is.

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Yes it's all supposed to make things harder for the cowboy but it is similar to the results that happened in the early 90's when portable appliance testing was introduced, I had to go on a course to learn the in's & out's (mainly paperwork), one of the rules is that portable appliance testing must be carried out by a 'competent' engineer we asked what they meant by competent & were told thereis no actual definition the person just had to be 'competent'!
I was in charge of all electrical & electronic equipment at the company because I was the workshop manager.
I was on staff so no overtime pay for me we had over a thousand items of equipment that needed to be tested and entered into a log over about 6 weekends.
Health & Safety called around on one of their visits and because it was a new law asked to see the log, they went away happy (yippee I'm competent), The managing director wanted a small extention building on the factory so had to apply to blackburn council for planning permission, their building inspector called and amongst other things wanted to see the Pat testing log, He then said because I wasn't NICEIC registered I wasn't competent to carry out the tests.
I showed him proof of the course I'd been on all my qualifications and the report from the Heath and safety stating that the log was satisfactory.
He just turned round and said as far as he was concerned because I wasn't NICEIC registered I wasn't competent, and if he found me doing anymore portable appliance work within the boundaries of Blackburn I and my employer would be fined.
My employer enquired to H&S they confirmed that I was competent so my boss cancelled his application for an extension and instead moved out of Blackburn, never to have that problem again!

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

So its not just me then. even If I had the latest Qualifications I still wouldnt be able to test that socket because I'm not niceic registered. Thing that I don't get is how can they insist on it. In your case it was proved you are competent, but they wont accept it, In my case I'm qualified so I'm competant but they wont accept it, and they insist on you belonging to a trade organisation. If you joined one of the other trade organisations you still wouldn't be competant. Who the hell gives these councils the right to choose which trade organisation being a member of means your competant, on our behalf. Thats taking my choice away

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

And if it goes to court who's right less, is the council or the H&S. I'd bet the court would go with H&S.
You know what else, I think if i did get niceic registered they'd still stop me doing it, cos they'd say id be biased in my test results because the test is for my lights socket. Infact thats probably why they didnt want you doing it, thought youd let things pass that shouldn't.

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

The whole idea is that the qualified person issues a 'Self Certification', which means that he is then responsible for any work carried out before and up to the work he has done anything added afterwards then tranfers the responsibility on to the next person.

So far as 'competent' is concerned however, at one factory I worked at recently they had a contractor in to do the portable appliance testing, we had a variable d.c. power supply for testing components, his description for that was 'transformer' because he didn't know what it was!

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

The NICEIC thing is a council requirement, that is they require any Electrical Contractor doing work for them to be NICEIC registered. Part "p" of the building regulations applies to electrical installations in houses only.
As for local building control, they rely on the "Test Certificate" being produced by the contractor.

A little more information
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1130907

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

I'll read up on it and bore myself to death. I read it all once and forgot it. I'm not sure it's even enforcable, and I'm not sure I want to register, Any sparkie that works for a firm thats niceic registered automatically is also and automatically is part p registered too. He may be on his first day at a new work placement on a college course for all you know. Also reading that any repairs or maintenance work doesnt need it, extra sockets don't apart from in a bathroom, kitchen or outside. A shed on a plug and socket doesn't, which is what people will end up doing.
I just can't see the benefits to us sparkies or to the customers.

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

can you get a security light with just a plug on just to plug it in

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Yes but the cable is not very long, how long do you want it?


(/me waits for "I want to keep it") :)

Re: Help with Security Light?
 

Not recommended to have an outdoor security light connected via an extension lead, better that it is installed by a skilled electrician with a 'P' certificate rating.