Diving Divas
 

I have watched football since 1946 when I saw my first match at Peel Park and like most kids of my era played football in the street, on some spare ground or at school in inter form matches and even inter school matches. Followed by whilst in the navy and for the works team after being demobbed.

My first allegiance was to Accrington Stanley until one day I saw the Busby Babes in action and I switched immediately, although I have always had a soft spot for the Stanley.

That preview is to establish my football credentials so that I can lay some claim to knowing something about football gleaned from over 60 years association with the game. Although my viewing is limited to the TV these days with the odd foray to watch Accrington Stanley.

In recent years diving has taken a hold and a penalty awarded to a diver has altered the overall the outcome of a match. Conversely an obvious penalty not awarded has also altered the overall outcome of a match. Today a match won or lost that could have had a different outcome but for a penalty incident, could cost a club dear. From being relegated to not winning the league or attaining a lower place in the league. In other words it could cost a club several millions of pounds. The other side of the coin being - winning the league or not being relegated and attaining a higher place in the league thus gaining money under false pretences.

I accept that referees and their assistants can only judge what they see and an incident can look different from another angle. I also accept that, contrary to some opinions, referees and their assistants are human and under pressure humans make mistakes. Heck they even make mistakes when not under pressure.

But nonetheless the FA and FIFA should address the problem because football is rapidly deteriorating into a farce.

The solution is blindingly obvious. Use the TV replays and slow-mo to make a better judgement on alleged diving incidents in the penalty area. However football is a game that flows and is only disrupted by infringements so to interrupt a match whilst someone pours over a TV replay wouldn’t be practical or desirable. Yet the TV cameras capture the incident from several angles and should be used to decide – dive or no dive, penalty or no penalty.

I would suggest that three retired referees at a match view the replays for alleged diving and also for disputes about a penalty not being awarded when in fact a foul had been committed and make a decision.
If they decide that a player dived, a penalty was awarded and a goal was scored direct from the penalty or from an immediate ‘follow up’ – the goal would be scrubbed and the diver would be awarded a RED CARD and be charged with ‘bringing the game into disrepute’.
If no goal were scored direct from the penalty or from an immediate ‘follow up’ the diver would still be charged with ‘bringing the game into disrepute’.
If they decide that the challenge was fair yet a penalty was awarded, a goal was scored direct from the penalty or from an immediate ‘follow up’ – the goal would be scrubbed.
If they decide that a player was fouled in the ‘box’ but was not awarded a penalty, that penalty could be taken at the end of the half during which the incident took place.

The question is would the FA be able to find 3 retired referees for each match that is being televised and would the FA be prepared to go the expense? Unlikely!

In that case there could be a panel of 5 recently retired referees who could view penalty decisions from all televised matches during the following day/s. Much like there is a panel to decide the outcome of matches that have been postponed due to bad weather to aid the football pools.

If a manager of a team is of the opinion that the referee made the wrong decision about a penalty incident he could lodge an appeal with the fourth official.

The referee panel could view the incident and decide what the outcome should have been.
If a team were wrongly awarded a penalty from which a goal was scored direct from the penalty or from an immediate ‘follow up’ that goal would be scrubbed from the final score and if it were a diving incident the diver would be awarded a RED CARD and be charged with ‘bringing the game into disrepute’.
If a team was NOT AWARDED a penalty but the panel decides a penalty was due, then one goal should be awarded to that team.

Any panel decision that goes against what the referee awarded should not be seen as a criticism of that referee. After all he can only make a judgement on what he sees. He could have actually blinked at the crucial split second and everyone blinks all the time. His view could have been obscured by a player at the crucial moment.

No doubt someone will immediately think ‘what a crackpot idea’ but if they really thought things through my suggestion is A solution to the ‘it was a penalty – no it wasn’t’ problem. Not necessarily THE solution but one to be discussed.

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If a team was NOT AWARDED a penalty but the panel decides a penalty was due, then one goal should be awarded to that team. -----its a problem that needs much study! clubs whole futures can depend on correct descisions, but that idea is not for me. many penalties are missed as well as scored, so to award a goal for not being awarded a penalty, defeats the object.

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I would suggest that the whole thing should be looked at, not by ex referees', but by ex footballers.

:D

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Yeah I agree it does defeat the object Cashie.When all said and done over a season it usually balances itself out anyway,your team not getting a penalty or the other team getting one in dodgy circumstances.Not only that what would we have to talk about over a pint:) It would take all the debate side of the game away.I think its all the fun of being into footie having a good old post match chin wag:D

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Sounds a bit iffy to me... some of the things suggested could leave supports leaving at the end of games on Saturday, not knowing if they had won, drawn or lost because the score could be altered by a panel on Tuesday!

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I'm all for players being brough to task for cheating using video evidence after a game. They already do that if a player hits somebody and it's missed by the referee.

Perisitent offenders should first of all be banned and then the clubs concerned docked points.

Don't run with the idea of penalties being given after a game.

Oh and one question .. What is a penalty ? :rolleyes:

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Then it puts the onus of a judgement before the game ends and a penalty is taken at the end of the half.

Have you a better solution to what is an obvious penalty to the majority of the crowd but unseen by any of the officials?

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There's no logical and practical way to stop diving. It's now sadly a big part of football. Give it time and refs will get more experience with diving and will be able to make better judgements. Afterall diving has only become a widespread problem in English football in the 21st Century.

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I would totally disagree about footballers being experts at laws of the game, I would say 99% of them haven't a clue, which is about the same percentage of the number of football fans who haven't a clue as well.

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But the ex players know the little tricks that go on that ref's dont see.

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So because it is thought that over a season things USUALLY balance out it is OK to carry on as we are doing? USUALLY isn’t good enough today! Imagine if that attitude applied to other walks of life. You get short changed in a shop but the shopkeeper comes back with “It’ll balance out over the year because another shop might give you more change than you should have got.” There are no concrete statistics to verify the “it’ll balance out over a season” claim. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that some big clubs like Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal etc are more likely to get a penalty when playing at home than the opposition.

On Saturday Watford got their first penalty of the season and you can bet your sweet life they had many un-rewarded legitimate claims in previous games.

Because you and your mates will not have anything to talk about after a match is a pretty lame excuse for not doing something positive about ‘penalties’.

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So to me it sounds like you want to start americanising our beautiful game,shall we have the halves made into quarters to to raise a bit more revenue on advertisements.Just like what Sky have done 'Glazer' at my club and probably what 'Gillett' will do at Anfield.It will Kill off for good our game.:(

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Whether diving is a recent or long standing problem isn’t the issue. The issue is should it be allowed to continue and if not how to prevent it or at least punish the offenders to the advantage of the team offended against.

I have put forward A COUPLE OF SOLUTIONS but not THE SOLUTION. Can anyone come up with something better?

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It's a game, not a political process.
I don't think any new dynamic actions should be brought in.
Like I said before there is no practical solution to diving. It'll just take time and developing experience.

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Why can't the forth official watch the game from 2 different angle on a split screen monitor? We already know that they are in contact with the ref via an earpiece & mircophone, so they could inform the ref is they see something different. After an incident takes place, there is usually about 30-60 seconds of moaning, why can't this time be used to look at a replay?

:confused:

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Now you are being facetious! Just where in all my comments have I stated anything at all about altering the game except in the decision making with regard to penalty area incidents?

In any case a match is already broken up into small sections with the ball going out of play for one reason or another many, many times during a match.

Next time that you go to a live match or see a full match on telly have a stopwatch with you. Start the watch every time that the ball is not in play and stop it when play resumes then re-start it at the next out of play. I know that throw ins, corners, free kicks etc are all part and parcel of a football match’s 90 minutes duration but it might surprise you to discover that on average the ball is out of play for 20 minutes during a 90 minutes match.

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No sorry,I wasn't being facetious,just stating fact.Because of certain issues thats why I'm not watching premiership football anymore,well not 'paying' to go and watch it.I am happilly watching north west counties and next season whats looking like Unibond.There are no premadonnas in there..........Wonder how long it will be before the Anfield faithfull break ranks and do what we have at Old Trafford/Gigg lane?

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Interesting suggestion but is it practical. Can a person view a split screen like you suggest and determine with any degree of accuracy what he saw?

I think that all that would do is break up the ‘flow’ of the game. But it is worth a shot in the absence of any other ideas.

I’m trying to find a way of keeping the game flowing and also punishing the cheats so that their cheating does not affect the outcome of the match.

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Not only that he's supposed to be keeping an eye on each of the teams benches,and making sure no manager or member of coaching staff are doing anything wrong.

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If you were to punish the cheats by way of video evidence after the match, you could do as follows:

1st offence - 1 game ban.
2nd offence - 2 game ban.
3rd offence - 4 match ban.
4th offence - 8 match ban.

etc etc.

Each offence doubles from the previous one. I think a lot of managers would soon get fed up with the so called star strikers, if they were continually diving, & therefore missing a large part of the season.

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How about a 5th official then? Or a video monitor observer?

:confused:

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Like I said I was stating fact.Sky started the demise with giving more money to the rich clubs.Then came 'The Russian' at Chelski,then 'The Gnome'at Old Trafford and another 'Yank' at Anfield with Gillett.I feel slowly but surely our game is being slowly choked by foreign investment.:mad: :mad: :mad:

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I understand that it may seem like this. But, to just sit back & accept it as it is now is silly. Something has to be done, maybe a little bit at a time.

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The fourth official is told by the referee how much time to add on.

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Another interesting suggestion but it doesn’t really address the team being sinned against.

For example a player dives in the box gets a penalty and a goal is scored and the team go on to win by that goal. So the diver gets banned for a while and that may affect a result against future teams that his team plays. In the meantime the team that had the ‘illegal’ goal scored against them gets no retribution at all. Not fair to them is it?

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No Jambutty but it will be 'swings and roundabouts' plus if this sort of thing came in to force it would limit the number of divers long term until it wasn't so much an issue.

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No, it's not fair to them. But maybe you're team could be playing against somebody whose main goal threat is banned for diving. Thus tipping the balance in your favour slightly.

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Where are all these ex-referees going to come from ? There is already one ex-referee at each game as an assessor.

In a few years time they will be lucky to have enough referees for all levels of senior football in this country.The number of games without referees at grass roots level is already over 20% every weekend now. The constant abuse they get and video scrutiny will only increase that percentage, eventually upper levels of the game will feel the knock on from this.

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You should put yourself forward Dave:D Do you recon you could put up with it again?:D

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I'm afraid the moderators clamp down on bad language has made sure that my answer to that is not printable :D

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You say where will this money come from, but have we not just had an announcement from Sky that they are putting even more money into the game? Some of this money shoud therefore be given to the referees in their pay packet. In most other occupations, if you do a demanding job, you get a decent wage for it. This could act as an incentive to get more referees at the grass roots level.

:)

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It would make a change you getting a RED card for foul and abusive language than giving them out.:D

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Most people will agree that there is too much cheating going on in the game today. I don’t mean just fouling a player but the underhand stuff like pulling a shirt, pushing a player out of the way rather than a fair shoulder charge, diving in the box as well as elsewhere and not forgetting the ubiquitous flailing arms when jumping to head a ball. What about holding out an arm to prevent an opponent from getting near the ball.

I accept that it is difficult not to raise both arms when jumping to head a ball, but watch a player doing so when not challenged by another. The arms don’t go up anywhere as near as much.

I see nothing exciting about my team losing to the only goal that has been gained by a player diving in the box. In fact all that does is create bad blood.

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In some circumstances the arms go up naturally to protect ones self aswell.Wouldn't fancy challenging for a ball with Vidic,he doesnt use his arms just thunders in like a bull ready to gore the matador.:)

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Well there you are then. I always thought that it was the fourth official who determined how much time to add on after consulting with the referee.

We live and learn all the time.

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No Jambutty but it will be 'swings and roundabouts'

“Swings and roundabouts” Gayle means there will be winners and losers. Would anyone like to be a loser if they were cheated into being a loser?

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plus if this sort of thing came in to force it would limit the number of divers long term until it wasn't so much an issue.

That’s the idea! Stop the divers whilst at the same time rewarding the team for being sinned against!

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That’s almost advocating it all balances out in a season – but we know that it doesn’t.

The result of a match is the important bit and cheating should not be allowed to influence that result.

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the whole concept of "diving" could be eradicated over time by coming down hard on the manager/as well as the player. some high profile managers always(never see the incident) to me that encourages certain players to dive.;)

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Very true. I think that a directive needs to be put in place from FIFA.

:)

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Agreed cashman but you still have to establish who is diving and when before you can crack down on them. Until that happens managers will continue to hint to their players to take a pecuniary advantage whenever they can and players will do so anyway without encouragement from their manager.

The name of the game is to win a match and if a team can do so by bending the rules they will. Well most of them will.

A FIFA, EUFA or FA directive is only as good as the teeth behind it AccyJay but it is they who must set things in motion instead of just paying lip service to the problem.

Heavy club and individual fines and points deduction have been put forward as a means of punishing the cheats but first you have to prove the case.

I have outlined two ways of doing so and maybe there are other ways but no has come up with any so far.

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I do not like the idea of videos/cameras deciding the result of a football match..jambutty I'll bet after you watched the busby babes in action the notion of having a stewards enquiry at half time or full time, and then another enquiry a few days later would have been blasphemy!.... why should we let telivision and technology change our game?

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nobody would be diving jambutty,if it was eradicated, prevention is better than cure. springs to my mind.;)

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Blasphemy is reserved for religious issues. In spite of some people claiming otherwise, football never has been, nor is it now a religion. It’s a game that has got above itself and turned into big business.

If the Busby Babes lost a match due to the opposition diving in the penalty area and scoring from a penalty I would not be happy. I would be equally unhappy if the said Busby Babes won a match due to a dive in the penalty area – not that any of them would do that.

Diving to gain a pecuniary advantage is CHEATING – plain and simple.

Most people agree that diving is bringing the game into disrepute and debate and moan to each other about the unfairness. Some try to console themselves and even excuse diving by suggesting that the wrongs even themselves out over a season. But that is absolute nonsense.

If you don’t like the idea of using TV retrospectively then come up with an alternative to stop diving and other cheating ways.

It is time that every avenue is explored to get rid of the cheats and if that means use TV then so be it.

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It’s all too easy to glibly state, “Eradicate diving”.

My question is HOW?

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thought i answered that in post 51. thats my solution.

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How do you propose to come down hard on managers and players?

Threaten the wrong doers with fines, suspensions or points deductions?

Fine but how does the FA prove their allegation? It’s great if the ref or either of the assistants sees the incident, but what about all those incidents that go unseen by no one, except the manager of the wronged team and the team’s supporters?

It’s all very well introducing rules but they are waste of time if they are not enforced, rigorously. And right now too many divers get away with their cheating.

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It’s all very well introducing rules but they are waste of time if they are not enforced, rigorously. And right now too many divers get away with their cheating.--- that statement is beyond any doubt.but my suggestion of(come down hard) on managers and players, certainly would not mean fining them,of which fines mean nothing to these overpaid prima-donnas,as for exact form of punishment,i would prefer to let the authorities sort that one,though my favourite personally would be points-deduction.

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Players get away with cheating (and many are probably encouraged by their managers) because the match officials do not always see the incident, whereas many spectators and the TV cameras do. In any case spectators and managers (apart from the odd one) have selective eyesight and view an incident with bias so all that leaves is the impartial, see it as it is, TV cameras.

I agree that deduction of points would be an effective deterrent but before the FA can deduct any points they have to prove their case. The only way that the FA can prove the case is with visual evidence and that can only be supplied by TV cameras. The TV camera evidence precedent has already been set with players being punished for violent conduct unseen by the match officials.

The sticking point seems to be WHEN that evidence is viewed. During a match or after? The TV pundits manage to review incidents at half time and after full time so there is no real reason why a bunch of accredited officials couldn’t do the same and even during play. After all we get to see a goal, off side or foul from many different angles during play. The technology is already in place and it could be used to stamp out cheating retrospectively.

In last night’s match, Bolton v Arsenal, the TV showed quite clearly that one penalty should not have been given. Fortunately the spot kick was blazed over the bar so the circle was squared so to speak.

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i think visual evidence is the key, as to when it is viewed,that would be irrelavant if it was a points deduction. i think preferably after in the cold light of day may be best. to do it instantly would probably incite the cretins and cause mayhem?

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On the face of it, it might seem like a points deduction for diving in the penalty area would be the right approach. But isn’t a 3 points deduction the same as the team losing a match? If a team loses a match then by definition it means that some team has won. What about the team sinned against? What do they get out of it? Nothing!

Team “A” wins a match against team “B” by the odd goal, which was gained by being awarded a penalty after a diving incident. The team “B” manager lodges a complaint with the fourth official and the incident is pondered over by a panel of ‘experts’ during the next day or two. They decide that the team “A” player did dive and deduct 3 points from team “A”.

But for that penalty, team “B” would have drawn the match and gained a point for the draw but they still end up with nothing.

You can play around with all sorts of combinations of scores where a diving penalty is involved and in the main the sinned against team will also be the loser. That can’t be fair.

It’s all very well punishing the miscreants but the ‘victim’ should also have the wrong put right, if at all possible. That is the flaw in a points deduction. Both teams (the sinner and the sinned against) are adversely affected and that cannot be right or fair.

It could be argued that if a team is deducted points for a penalty area diving incident, any points deduction should then have those same points awarded to the other team. But that wouldn’t be fair either if the sinned against team lost the game, especially if that team lost by more than the odd goal scored from that ‘penalty’. If points are taken from one team and given to their opponents that is in effect reversing the actual result.

So on reflection deducting points is not the answer to the diving problem.

There is only one fair way of punishing a diver that I can see.
If the ref judges that a player has dived and thus no penalty is given, that player gets a yellow card for ‘simulation’ as they call it now. Of course there is the ‘grey’ area of a player losing his balance in avoiding accidentally kicking someone or slipping. That is for the referee to decide on the spot. That’s what he is there for.

If a penalty is awarded for a dive there can only be one of two outcomes. Either a goal is scored or it isn’t.
If no goal is scored from the penalty or an immediate follow up that is the end of the matter. Poetic justice for cheating!

However if a goal is scored from the penalty or an immediate follow up then the manager can lodge an appeal.
If the appeal is successful, the goal is wiped out and whatever the result after the goal deduction - it stands. Thus a team winning 4 – 1 would still win but only 3 – 1. In a draw scenario the other team would end up winning. A team losing 1 – 2 would lose 0 – 2. In all cases both team’s goal difference would be affected. The cheats to the bad and the sinned against to the good.
The diver gets a 5 matches ban.

It has been argued in an earlier post that supporters would go home not knowing what the end result might be. Well the same applies to a points deduction. So what is the problem?

However when it comes to the other side of the coin - that being what happens if a penalty is NOT awarded when TV replays show that it should have been, that is a whole new can of worms.

IF A JUDGMENT CAN BE MADE DURING THE GAME (and there is no real reason why it could not) then the sinned against team should be awarded that penalty at the end of the half.

If the governing body cannot or does not want to go to the expense of hiring 2 ex-referees and 1 ex-player for each match to act as the judgement panel, then the issue can only be resolved after the event – that is the next day, with a panel of say 3 ex-referees and 2 ex-players. If this ‘after the match panel’ decides that a penalty should have been awarded then considering that some 90% of all penalties end up as a goal, a goal should be awarded to that team and the match result adjusted accordingly.

In all cases it would be up to the manager of the wronged team to lodge an appeal about a penalty area incident and thus invoking the use of the ‘panel’. To prevent frivolous appeals, and there are bound to be some lodged in hope rather than a genuine opinion, an appeal that is turned down would attract a fine of half the match takings. This might just open manager’s eyes to see what is happening and not be selective about it.

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the sinner gets the deduction, thats the punishment.and that to me is where it must end. as for the victim like in a court of law, if somebody robs you,and is caught, they get the sentance, the victim gets nowt,apart from seeing justice done.its not perfect i know.

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You may be prepared to accept an injustice and it is an injustice when the victim doesn’t get any retribution cashman but I am not.

I’ve just finished watching the Arsenal v Blackburn cup tie and there is no doubt in my mind that Arsenal were robbed of a penalty late on. The TV pundits were of the same opinion.

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thought the object was to eradicate diving divas? to me a points deduction would, then it wouldn,t be an injustice. p.s. agree about the penalty, but we have had a good few denied this season n i aint crying about em.

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Perhaps it shouldn't be against the team because as you so rightly point out Jambutty, it would be hard to manage within the match.

Perhaps it should be a yellow card and a months wages docked against the player. It might take a season to really take effect but if the referees and officials were strict I'm pretty sure that it would eventually hit home and would hopefully, eradicate it out of the game.

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Thanks for that Gayle.

One thing is for sure - the issue should not just be ignored. It should be discussed, ideas thrown about, argued around and talked over again. There has to be a solution to counter the cheats in football otherwise the whole sport is likely to fall into disrepute.

Then the pundits can argue over the demise and how it happened.

I’ve just bethought myself, an idea that has been languishing at the back of my brain cell for many years has just pushed its way to the front. Dare I put it forward and risk being vilified, called names etc? Yes I do dare. But it has to be another thread.