R & B and dance music
 

Over at this post, Wynonie said
I've also been disbelieved a couple of other times recently too, but that's OK, I don't mind being unbelievable! Yes, I know, that was an unbelievably bad joke too. But to get to the point.

I haven't listened to R & B since the 60s, except for what's come on TV, the juke box or radio so I probably don't know the difference between R & B and Rhythm & Blues - I always thought they were the same thing. I've heard stuff they call R & B from 90s onwards which I'd call urban soul because it isn't much like the R & B that Wynonie puts on here. Is this the difference you are referring too, Wynonie, or something else?

As for the 'unmitigated junk' I couldn't possibly like - well, I suppose I should thank you for crediting me with 'infinite good taste', but I happen to like that kind of dance music a lot. I was surprised by such a strong reaction, although when I posted it I guessed that some would not like it, hence I mentioned that. However it has everthing R & B has but in different measure. It has the repetitive beat that you get hooked on, but more so than R & B, it has soulful singing but sampled and not as forward in the mix as R & B, it stirs the emotions (but I don't mean the ones you got, W :D)

OK, so it's not played on 'real instruments' in 'real time' by 'real musicians' but before you get over-critical of that, note that many of these musicians do play it all live when they are touring and there is a real art to mixing and twiddling knobs. I say if the end result is great then does it matter if they are not 'real musicians'? I would also say critics should ask themselves if they could also create tunes/rhythms/melodies like the one I posted and have they ever tried? If they can answer Yes then fair enough, it's a good job we're not all the same.

Anyway, if anybody wants to debate it I'm willing to. If not and you still think I'm unbelievable, then thanks :D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Well, I had a listen and I have to say that it doesn't float my boat.
Music is very subjective. It awakens all kinds of emotions in us.......in a similar way that smells do.(ask any ICU nurse......bringing patients out of a coma...play their favourite music) I smell hyacinths and I am back in Amsterdam in 1967.........I hear a particular piece of violin music and I am 6 years old listening to my father playing the violin......The Beatles, they take me back to my teen years( I thought Paul was a dream boat).
I have very wide tastes in music. I am not fond of motown...it never really did anything for me way back then and it just grates on my nerves when I hear it now. I don't like rap or hiphop....it isn't really music to me
I like opera, and the popular classics...but I also like some of the current music...Elbow and Adele being my current favourites.
I am not sure if this is the kind of thing you were looking for Gobbiner.......but that is my contribution.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Like you, Margaret, I like all kinds of music. Also my musical tastes change. I liked some hip-hop in the 80's with conscious lyrics that you could understand but it really turns me off nowadays. I never used to like dub reggae but then one day I just fell in love with the simplicity of the rhythms and have loved it ever since.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

I like my music to be melodic...and if possible, to have words that mean something.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

R&B is a catchall term which covers any music that is popular with black American audiences and has been in use since the late 40's. It was originally short for rhythm & blues because that's what it was - basic 12-bar blues, but revved up with honking saxes, pounding pianos and a strong backbeat. Eventually white Americans nicked it and gave it a new name - rock'n'roll. Then came soul which again was called rhythm & blues but more so in America. Eventually as the years have gone by all the feeling, emotion and natural verve have been bled out of the music until you have the bland, gutless, antiseptic muzak that is modern R&B. Nobody even knows what the term stands for now, as there's certainly no blues in this neutered, shallow, colourless sound.

I genuinely did think you were winding us up when you posted that pile of junk as you appeared to have pretty good taste previously. I certainly can't detect any emotion in it - it sounds like a metronome, accompanied by various "found sounds" from the BBC Special Effects Library. Any emotion that the brief snatches of vocal might have conveyed are effectively drowned out by the barrage of burbling, beeping electronic noises.

And yes, it does matter whether or not music is played by real musicians in real time, instead of being a mad scientist's concotion of various tracks from here, there and everywhere. Musicians playing together vibe and react with each other to create a special ambience that manufactured sounds could never match. Just listen to that Billie Holiday track you posted with the jazz guys playing behind her and say it isn't so. That's why REAL rhythm & blues bands like Roomful of Blues, Sharon Jones & The Dapp Kings and Eli "Paperboy" Reed & The True Loves insist on recording their music this way.

I'm sure there'll be someone along to back you up on your allegiance to phoney, manufactured dance music (once they get in from whichever acid house rave they've been to) but the REAL music connoisseurs on Accyweb know where I'm coming from! ;)

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Thanks for the information about R&B, Wyn. You are very passionate about it and I am grateful for the musical examples that you post and I must check out the other names you mentioned. I agree with you that real musicians in real time react with each other in special ways to create something unique and that one or two men (it is very male dominated) will not have the same interactions as 4, 5, 6 or more, especially if it is recorded one instrument at a time. I also share your dislike of 'antiseptic muzak' and am aware of how the music industry steals from the originators, even the name 'R&B' in this case, and package their watered-down derivatives as the best thing around and get away with it through clever marketing and control of much of the mass media.

To say I am an ally of phoney, manufactured dance music, however, shows your limited knowledge of the genre called house music. No doubt the stuff you hear on TV and radio is mostly phoney and manufactured by music industry maffia who operate in every area of music. Quite possibly the musicians who make good house music have been influenced to some extent by this phoney stuff because there is so much exposure to it, but their real influences come from records played in clubs never heard on mainstream media, and also nowadays from the internet. Even acid house raves have been phoney since the late 80s taken over by gangsters and money makers, but lovers of good house music know the real from the fake just as much as you do.

As for emotion, I think you will agree that there has to be empathy by the listener to appreciate what the performer is trying to express. I think you will also agree with Margaret about how certain sounds, such as a violin, can stir up fond and strong memories. Well, in my opinion that's how house music works - the audience is 'up for it' just as you were when you were a teenager on a night out, so the joyful feelings are already in the audience and the music helps these go deeper. Certain drum beats and sounds trigger memories of deeper feelings, as do the synths when they come in, and the snatches of vocals etc. Discerning listeners detect subtle differences in the 'found sounds' as you call them and simply love these superb sounds being repeated over and over again. In many cases the interplay of rhythms works to take you on a journey into your emotions, whereas with your rhythm & blues it is usually the vocalist who takes you whilst the rhythms don't really go anywhere (perhaps you have examples to prove otherwise?)

I could say rhythm and blues is manufactured too, after all the same rhythms and the same blues are to be found on many tracks, so you could even say it is formula music. But I won't say that because the more I listen to it the more I can appreciate it and it comes for 'way down deep in our soul'. Believe it or not, good house music also comes from the same place.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

The drum beats that you mention do invoke primeval memories....they almost replicate the sounds that were listened to in our mothers womb....these sounds were reliable, rhythmic, hypnotic even...which is why they continue to hold us in their sway.
But I don't like house music :)

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Phoney, manufactured, plastic music made with synthesisers and a variety of electronic noises is phoney whether it's mainstream or underground - makes no difference. As for its popularity with rave-going audiences, that makes no difference to its lack of quality either. You can always find plenty of people to lap up junk - the state of prime time TV proves that.

As for proper rhythm & blues being formulaic, of course it was. Wynonie Harris wasn't out to make great art in the 50's - he wanted to make lots of that green stuff to blow on women, Cadillacs, Johnnie Walker Red Label and high living. The same with Wilson Pickett in the 60's. But that doesn't matter because along the way they made some great records which expressed the sheer joy of living and sometimes the sadder side too. You can never do that with the artificial sounds of house whether it's underground, overground or up a gumtree.

Jukebox regulars like me, Cashy, Al Gilmartin, Steeljack and others still listen to and love records we first heard 40-45 years ago, because they've stood the test of time. Today's rave/club goers won't be doing the same 40 years from now, because the records they listen to are disposable trash which will be viewed as a musical abberation in years to come.

But worry not, Gobbiner, help is at hand. We are going to guide you in the ways of righteousness on the true path to musical nirvana and one day you will see the light and take all your electronic beep records down to Oxfam. Your musical re-education starts here! ;)

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To be honest Wyn the only music I have is from the 60s and 70s with the odd 80s, but modernday no thanks

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Of course you don't have modern day music. Who in their right mind does? All modern music is crap. Everyone with the most tenous grasp on reality knows that!

Re: R & B and dance music
 

:) Now it's my turn not to believe you, Wyn!

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You probably don't at the moment, Gobbiner, but you are still a lost spirit wandering in a wilderness of electronic beeps and sampled click tracks.

Worry not, dear boy, for we are about to direct you towards a whole new musical paradise that will sooth your soul and enhance your wellbeing in ways you never thought possible!

Re: R & B and dance music
 

well i certainly aint got NO modern day stuff n sure as hell don't want any. though i do listen occasionally to new artists/groups n then i can honestly slag em.:D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Have a listen to what Gobbiner posted on the jukebox thread. Complete and utter unmitigated crap that offends the ears of any serious musical connoisseur. Every copy of this record and others like it should be trampled upon, smashed into a thousand pieces and thrown to the very pits of the deepest, darkest mineshaft.

What do you mean, it's a download? ;)

Re: R & B and dance music
 

i did listen to it, n decided not to comment cos it wasn't in the oer 18s.:D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

There was an Item this morning on BBC Breakfast about Dwayne Eddy Eddie, who is in this country and recording a new album, the first for 25 years, I must admit he was popular in the sixties and listening to the guy who has brought him over here to Sheffield made a statement that I can certainly agree with, hes probable one of the only guitarist who can be identified after just a few chords

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I think it is easy to fall into the trap of generalisation about modern music.
While I am not a great lover of some modern music I do have some up to date CD's.......Adele 21(I like Adele 19 too)is one of them....and while I don't rave about all her stuff, I would not say it was crap. I won't slavishly buy CD's because it is a particular artist. These days I am far more likely just to buy the tracks that I like......make my own playlist of stuff that does float my boat.

I think you have to have an open mind about modern stuff...but not so far open that your brain falls out

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The only present-day music worth listening to is that made by bands and singers who are performing in older musical traditions and recording music together in "real time" sometimes even with old 50's/60's valve equipment to give it that "warm" sound. The bands I've already mentioned and others whose names mean nothing to the average punter. All modern music in the true sense of the word is worthless garbage.

I can proudly say that I'm totally narrow-minded, musically speaking. I've narrowed it down to good music and consigned all the ephemeral junk to the dustbin of history, including the insult to good music that Gobbiner inflicted on us!

If that puts me in a minority of one, so be it. It won't be the first time! :s_whistl:

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Are you actually sure that was worth the title music Wyn:rolleyes:

Re: R & B and dance music
 

I was being polite, Jay. Like Cashy, if I used the words I really want to describe it, Neil and Mick would be down on me like a ton of bricks.

However, Gobbiner, don't let that put you off posting more electronic bleeps in future. It's a free country! ;)

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Made one of my rare visits to big city yesterday Wyn and its surprising just how things have changed really, considering I've only been in Accy Centre (for a look round) I was quite surprised, there's a music shop where E. J. Riley's shop was on Little Blackburn Road selling old vinyl records never went in but there looked to be some quite good stuff knocking about, I was a little disappointed though there were no drunks in front of the Market Hall and I couldn't get a T shirt "Rovers Till I die" which I wanted because the guy from giftprint had had the day off:rolleyes::D:D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Not got round to looking in the record shop, Jay. As for the bloke from Giftprint, he'd gone on the lash with the market hall lot. ;)

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Must be a regular event then Wyn, there was a notice in the window say closed all day wednesday:D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

I heard that the owner of Custard Cube record shop cleans his records with Pledge furniture polish. Don't know how much truth there is in that but be careful if you go buying records there. Most I've seen in there are in poor condition but I haven't been in for a long time.

Back to beeps, blues and rhythms...

Lee Perry is 75 years old, still performing live and recording as well as appearing live or sampled on lots of modern records. I don't know his whole history as I am not a music nerd but his name pops up time and time again and in general he produces some terrific reggae and dub. I'm not too sure about the dubstep (link below), some of it is good but some doesn't float my boat at all. The point is though that if Scratch uses electronic beeps, whistles and whatever in his recordings (for over 20 years now), then that surely is a good recommendation, or at least an indication that electronic music might have some gems amongst it.

I posted 3 reggae tunes on the Accyweb jukebox - Jacob Miller prod. King Tubby, Jolly Bros prod. Lee Perry, and Bim Sherman prod. Sherman/Tubby - each with the dub version at the end. In the 60s and 70s, unbeknown to most UK music lovers except perhaps some living in Brixton or West Indian communities, producers like Lee Scratch Perry, King Tubby, Bunny Lee and Niney Holness were producing hundreds of 7" singles with vocal on one side, dub on the other. The rest of us were listening to Steel Pulse, Specials, Selecter, Bob Marley and a few others as that was all we knew about (if any of you know different, I'd love to hear it!) These started coming to my attention in the 80s through Trojan I think (via Radio Lancs On The Wire program). There is lots of absolutely cracking stuff completely overlooked by the mainstream - the mainstream just plays the derivatives usually with a pop feel or some other genre mixed in to dilute it for radio and tv listeners ears. (BBC TV is totally disgusting in their treatment of the whole reggae genre, Reggae Britannia was so far off the mark it is untrue).

Anyway, in those dub versions you can hear the first signs of the recording engineer and mixing desk man stamping their influences on a record, with echo, reverb etc. This has developed into electronic beeps, samples and all kinds of sounds you never heard before being used. King Tubby's was a master and I don't think it gets better than his mixes, and OK they weren't electronic beeps as such. But he has influenced so many of today's mixologists such as Adrian Sherwood that they are producing stuff almost equally as good. Sherwood, like Perry, tastefully uses electronics and samples but there are still the traditional instruments laying the foundation on most records, although some are purely electronic and good in their own right. In general I prefer the ones with traditionally instrumented rhythms on them (you will be pleased to know Wyn :D

An example with a bit of electronics.

You may also be interested to know that about 30 or 40 7" singles per week are being released that are in the reggae, reggae dub, dubstep and ska genre, so I guess there is a big scene going on in London. I haven't bought any of these records, most seem to be re-releases of 60s and 70s stuff, as I don't have deep pockets and there are only so many hours in a day to listen.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

And what do you make of this?
Lee Perry’s “Blackboard Jungle”: From Dub to Dubstep The FADER

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Gobbiner, once again you are attempting to lead us into a veritable sonic wilderness. Dub reggae is the most boring form of music known to man. Reggae record companies were too poor/tight to put proper B sides on their records, so they just used the A side's backing track minus the vocal. Various individuals starting messing around with these, adding echo, reverb etc, but they can't disguise what they are - an empty-sounding backing track waiting for a vocal that never comes.

As for dubstep, a vile, unlistenable noise.

I had hoped that with time we might have been able to save you from the pits of the musical hell that you are descending into, but I fear that we are too late...far too late!

Re: R & B and dance music
 

I 100% agree every time it seems we get somewhere he slips back into the depths of the dark and bottomless pit that is **** music which these days seems to be getting deeper and darker.Having said that some modern artists are talented and good to listen too but they are few and far between,you just have to look at the GAGA what the hell is that all about? Am i just getting old ? But i just dont get it, compare her and her like to otis redding , tina turner, solomon burke, sam and dave, wilson picket frank sinartra, tony bennet, marvin gaye, james carr and of course elvis!!!! I know i rest my case no comparison.
Ok rant over:) i feel better now:D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

don't rant oer it mate, pity is more suitable.:D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

True, then again when its a lost cause its sometimes hard to feel any pity:D:D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Amen to that :D:D

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Oh Brothers stuck in the time warp of the 50s, 60s and 70s soul, rhythm and blues era, I have failed to get even the slightest hint you will open up your closed dark hearts to the bright light of modern music, not even stuff from your millennium never mind the millennium the rest of us are living in. Through a few fixed thoughts you have limited yourselves to a small fraction of the musical enjoyment you could be blessed with. If you could just move from 'never' to 'maybe', a whole new world of musical appreciation could open up before you.

The world of acid, trance, tribal, trip hop, jungle, breakbeats, downtempo, ambient, freestyle, gabber, garage, house, deep house, latin house, happy house, minimal, new age, new wave, speed garage, techno and electro and dub versions will give you a warm welcome if you would just say 'maybe' and listen out for the magic within the sound. Oh well, I do not pity you because you have found your limits and have learned to live within them, so long may you enjoy your R & B. My feelings are ones of astonishment, amazement and surprise rather than pity, but also deep gratitude and thanks for my good fortune to be able to appreciate the ever expanding world of music and to discover more sonic gems every day.

But perhaps we can share the same sentiment - "This isn't sometimes this is always. This isn't maybe, this is forever, this is love."
YouTube - ‪Waldeck - This Isn't Maybe (Eric Kupper's Deep Club Version) (2000)‬‏

Re: R & B and dance music
 

tripe, have listened to quite a lot of new groups/artists n far as i'm concerned 90% is crap. as fer magic within the sound- yep wish it would disappear.:D

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I agree about the 90%. Perhaps even 99%. But that 1% is superb but you haven't acquired the taste yet it seems.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

yeh but first time i ever heard "Blues"/ RocknRoll, Motown, etc i loved it, the fact ive heard quite a lot of the stuff yer advocating n still dislike speaks volumes imho.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

Of course, listening to MP3s doesn't help when it is the quality of the sounds that make such a big difference. Doesn't matter so much with R & B when the original recording quality wasn't that great. Makes me wonder whether today's young folk have ever heard a decent sound system when they walk around with earplugs attached to their phone or ipod all the time. By decent, I mean £100 turntable, about £250 for the amp, £200 for speakers, £200 for CD player with a good DAC, second hand at today's prices.

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Agree that most people seem to like the music they heard first or in their teens and this continues all their life. Wyn said dub reggae is atrocious and I thought this until one day when it 'clicked'. I've loved it ever since, it's the best part of any track. We are strange animals.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

yeh but i aint never been most people, when i first heard the early Stone Roses which me daughter was into, loved em right away, the same thing had occurred wi other groups/artists, not that many i concede, but i maintain yeh know pretty quickly in yer own opinion if summats good. if it takes time then it can't be that great.

Re: R & B and dance music
 

...yep, and proud of it! :alright: