Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Stanley fans,

Commiserations on the defeat. Written up some thoughts on the game - Cheltenham 3-0 Accrington: Four Things We Learnt | The Football Lab

Hadn't seen you since the final day game against Stevenage last year. From Coley's interviews, I get the sense performances have been better than results and opposing keepers are having worldies. Do you think results will turn around?

Good luck for the rest of the season.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

A very fair summary. Only two things I would note is that

1. It wasn't the ref who reacted to Rodak picking up Beccles' back pass, it was the crowd. The ref didn't do anything at first until the entire home crowd roared and the ref suddenly realised what had happened. If you watch the 'highights' (sic) there's a few seconds before the ref reacts.
2. I'm sure there are plenty of Stanley fans who'd dispute Brown's sending off, but I'd be very surprised if the club appeal and even more if they were successful in that appeal.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

An excellent analysis and I was not at the game. The analysis can be applied to most games Stanley have played. I call it the Coleman way. The big problem we have is the inability to change tactics in a game or getting substitutions right. We constantly play with one striker up front which is a terrible formation to attack with. It is easy to defend against. Your observations have echoed the thoughts of many on the forum. The question was asked a little while ago had the manager taken the team/club as far as he can. This question did provoke some deep and passionate debate. People are now seeing shortcomings that were not exposed as much last season simply because we were on a big run and promotion was in sight. The real problem is we are not good enough with the training and development. We have let some top players go and not replaced them with quality, we have just released players from the club that could and should have played a bigger part in strengthening the clubs position. Is this a case of the players from higher leagues not being managed properly. They have moved on and done well for their new clubs. Chris Eagles move to Portvale proved the point. He was allowed to play his game in his normal position and was credited with 3 assists in their 4-0 win. so is our management up to managing players from the higher leagues? this question keeps cropping up.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Maybe letting them play would be a good start.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

[QUOTE=Chrisr;1185416]An excellent analysis and I was not at the game. The analysis can be applied to most games Stanley have played. I call it the Coleman way. The big problem we have is the inability to change tactics in a game or getting substitutions right. We constantly play with one striker up front which is a terrible formation to attack with. It is easy to defend against. We have let some top players go and not replaced them with quality,

think we,ll live or die with the above especially the one man up front. i don,t like it and does anyone. will billy be played with another lad to help him out on a regular basis. something needs to happen quickly before it is too late.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

I think the criticism of JC are unwarranted he has performed wonders in keeping us in the league, being a manager with a small budget there is no money to attract top players or pay the wages they demand, at the end of every season the same scenario, if some players perform well we lose them to another club, then he has sorted through players which other clubs have rejected and build a team, I cannot see any other manager coming in and doing better than JC

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Cheers Chris, you make some interesting points. Do you think Coleman could become a victim of his own success? This season may be measured up to everything the club achieved last season, without possibly all of the better players except Kee.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

How is it unwarrented? i honestly think many managers could do better simply by changing tactics, Whilst players will always leave people are different n have different skills, but as has been pointed out MANY MANY times 1 up front does no-one any good. also as exile mentioned on the match thread, the way midfield mainly go round in circles rather than driving forward,

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

some how I can't see us improving by playing two up front
(Kee & Gornell) (Kee & McCartan) the truth is we havn't got a big strong Akinfenwa type player nor could we afford one

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Whats wrong with giving Kee @ Edwards a run of a few games? only a kid but certainly dont seem weak to me.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Playing with one up front is a valid tactic. However, it relies on the attacking midfielders getting forward and running beyond the front man. Or, the attacking midfielders running with the ball beyond the front man either through the centre or down the two wings. That's why it works better when Rommy plays because he does this all the time..........

Last season Windass and Piero were always getting forward and sometimes Crooks......

Our better players have moved on and we can't afford to bring in proven replacements, Coley brings in new unproven players who he hopes will get better and do a job but it's going to take time and may not work out until next season ...if it works at all..........hence we are stuck with one good season every five and we hope we survive league status in the other four seasons...........

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Have to disagree, hows it a valid tactic when yeh aint got the midfielders we had last season? that fact alone to me means try other stuff,

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Cashy I agree with what you are saying ........perhaps Coley is sticking with it because he believes it will come right?

However, I too have become frustrated watching the same things happening very week.

I think the bigger problem is our lack of goals. If we were scoring, with a greater chance of getting something out of the game then we wouldn't be discussing the best system or formation. Why our shots and headers aren't going in is mystifying..........maybe, as they only play one way, they could simply practice shooting ...and also set pieces as we very rarely get anything from corners and free kicks?

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

The lack of goals is the big problem in my view, to me that only comes from a midfield that play forward balls predominantly, and ours this season for whatever reason aint doing.;)

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Not if they sold him by the lb. (pound)

I think Coley has been let down by players who possess more quality than they've cared/dared to show. The main culprits being O'Sullivan, Clarke and Kee who have been profligate at best and absent at their worst. Don't get me started on McCartan who is light years away from the Ballon d'Or winner he thinks he is. I like Billy, and he can be excused to a degree owing to his injury problems, but he needs to dig deeper or adapt his game if he is to reach his best levels.
However I half agree as if something clearly isn't working (ie relying on skilled players to support a quality striker with chances and goals), you have to go back to basics and build the nice stuff up from there. We could go 4-4-2 but we don't have any natural wingers, and our forwards aren't exactly mobile. Formations are largely irrelevant but for me we need to find a way to get tight at the back first and foremost which includes getting the goalkeeping situation sorted; it has been one of the biggest but less mentioned problems this season.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

My own take on it Billy is a damn good player, needs support though he aint big enough to be a one man band, O sullivan aint been half the player this time around imho, have to disagree oer Clark though i rate him,

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Yeah your right Shaker, goalkeeping has been a problem. First Chapman with his shaky first game, then when Parish got a run in the side he has proved leaky at best, at the near post and under his body.......Chapman still doesn't command his area for a big lad and still looks shaky on occasions.......??..We can't judge the new lad after one game and meeting the team in the warm up. Just hoping he solves our keeper problem within the next couple of games and stays injury free........

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

I rate him, too. But that's kind of my point. He's played 30 games this season so far in all competitions but only scored 2 goals (0 in the league). A player of his talent should be providing much better output. Same with O'Sullivan. I'd like to see more direct players come in this month to shake up the current crop.

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Can't disagree shaker, but to me apart from injury, the difference is last season we had attacking midfielders which provided great assistance, this term as i have said before our midfield play predominantly sideways and back. why this has not been addressed is beyond my comprehension.thats what training should be all about to me.

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It does seem that we all seem to agree on the basic problems. perhaps the management should look at themselves and admit they are at a loss as to what to do. I do resent the implication that I am a Coley Hater as I am nothing of the sort. I am hoping and willing it to come right and I am aware of what he has done with the club. But if we want to progress then changes in personnel may have to happen. if it was a player they would have already been gone. I am surprised Andy has not expressed serious concern to JC about the results. The simple fact is there for all to see. we are not good enough at this moment. we have heard players named O'Sullivan at the last home game could have sat in the main stand and had a brew while waiting for a pass from the centre midfield who never seem to look up and spread the game wide. Piero had the same problem. have we learned. Nah.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Consensus seems to be that earlier/more direct balls forward is needed. Thoughts on the Beckles and Hughes partnership? Felt they did well yesterday until the sending off.

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Despite the scoreline on Saturday, I really don't think Stanley's problems are the back four.

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I agree completely.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

I think defence has been OK, keepers apart.


Too many creative players not cut the mustard this season:
ie. Mccarten, O'sullivan, Clarke, McConville, Gornell

No options due to sub-standard recruitment:
Eagles, Hery, GTF,

No creativity/drive in midfield; Seamus and Scott Brown too similar- neither provides any attacking thrust.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

'I think defence has been OK, keepers apart.


'Too many creative players not cut the mustard this season:
ie. Mccarten, O'sullivan, Clarke, McConville, Gornell

No options due to sub-standard recruitment:
Eagles, Hery, GTF,

No creativity/drive in midfield; Seamus and Scott Brown too similar- neither provides any attacking thrust.'

Forgot to add no leadership in midfield.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Glad to see that we are at last including our Captain in this critique !
Watching him , instead of the game !...I have noted that he seldom ,I if ever, makes the right space for himself and thus has little or no option but to play his now famous sideways/backwards pass !. This often negates any forward momentum which the team have going at that moment, and some enterprising opposition midfielder, having watched video highlights of Seamus in action, must be pleased to know that a quiet afternoon is in the offing.
He is not , in my opinion, a player of sufficient quality to play in, let alone skipper a Football League team ! .... am I getting hypercritical again ?

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

[QUOTE=cashman, have to disagree oer Clark though i rate him,[/QUOTE]

just don,t see what anyone can see in jordan clark apart from the goal at bradford. he,s like a lot we,ve had over the seasons, only in the game for short periods and never seems to do much either. as for the one up front lark was listening to radio tees on saturday as this was brought up by the guy commontating on hartlepools who also play the system. he said ot might work in the premier but at our level he would go for 2 upfront in every game. seems we,re not on our own.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Agree 100%, glad someone else is smelling the coffee.;)

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

I don't think any player is beyond reasoned criticism but Conneely did much better last season when he had Crooks as the more positive midfielder alongside him. Brown is a great 'terrier', breaker-up of play, but there's no-one looking to make the decisive pass forward*.
What puzzles me is that we have SIX midfield players but Davies, Hewitt, Lacey, and especially Hery rarely seem to feature. Is it because we have six players that are basically the same style?
For a brief spell at Leyton Orient, before he had to fill in at left back following McMarmite's dismissal, I thought Lacey was just starting to play a more positive part in midfield. But since then, it's been the Conneely-Brown pairing for the most part.
In Brown's enforced absence, will Professor Coleman act on his words about needing changes and bring in M.Hery so he can to show his erstwhile manager just what he can do? (I doubt it, somehow).

*of course, if there's no forward standing in or running into space, there's little option but to pass sideways/backwards.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Re Conneely,

I think he's missed Crooks as a partner in midfield big style as he gave us physicality/drive and could pick a forward pass.

In Crooks absence more is asked of Seamus and I think he's been found wanting.

I quite like him as a player but to give him a chance he needs a midfield partner who complements him more.

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Touche !

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

Last season Seamus Coneely was the 'Central Hub' around which most of our great play was generated. Yes, he had Crooks alongside and always available for the short pass sideways and forward. Crooks would then thrill us with his skills and unusual tactics. He also had Windass a little further in front to receive the 'incisive passes' forward which led to so many of our goals and entertaining play!
Those lads have gone now but consider the massive loss paricularly of Windass as Rangers now seem to be building their team around him! Crooks has been unlucky and is recovering slowly but I believe that he will get better too.
This season we simply do not have that creativity, skill and availability for the 'pass' from Coneely that we had last season. I also think that our midfield, Coneely in particular are having to play much deeper than last season.
When we lost Joyce to Carlisle, who was well liked by most around me in the Clayton End, Coneely came in and to me he was a significant improvement on Joyce who I felt always played far too deep. Luke is playing that deep role now at Carlisle but he still does not offer much creatively going forward from what I see on TV. It is just that Carlisle have other creative midfielders and plenty of goal scoring lads up front!
Now, Ironically, Coneely has been forced into the same deep role as Joyce played for us and now he is coming in for some criticism. I do though agree that some of it is justified and that Seamus must try to play a more advanced role and take more risks by playing further up the pitch and by trying to make those more incisive passes forward but really what is hampering him is the simply lack of quality in the players around and in front of him.
I think that Coley needs to include midfield players who have both the physicality and creativity around and in front of Coneely. In spite of the three goals conceded I do feel that the back four are quite a strong unit. The keeper position remains a problem too.
I have the simple view that if we play in our opponents half much more then we will win more games. Too often this season we have been forced to play in our own half! This does not mean that we adopt a 'Route 1' approach with the 'long ball' tactic but we must try to move the ball up field more quickly. Of course two good skilful wingers helps here too. Last season Pierro could carry the ball up the wings and attack his opponents much higher up the pitch.
Midfield players need be to scoring 6, 7 or 8 goals each in a season too like Pierro, Windass and Crooksy did last year.

KEEP THE FAITH:jimbo:
ON STANLEY ON:jimbo:
:alright:

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

We keep trying to pass our way out from the back through a crowded midfield.
Now that we all agree our midfield appears to be our weak point, why not by-pass it & make more use of the wide open spaces always available on the wing.
Clarke & O'Sullivan were used to good effect down the wings against Plymouth and all the goals at Woking came from simple crosses into the box, where Kee was waiting to pounce.
We need Billy Kee to be waiting in the penalty box, not surrounded by defenders on the half way line facing our goal.
Taking the pressure away from the centre would allow our forwards to look for the space in the box they need before any crosses come in.
Our most positive periods have always included fast, effective wingers like Piero & Gary Roberts.

Re: Neutral thoughts on the Cheltenham game
 

I keep harping on to friends that my favourite form of attacking play is to see wingers both right and left taking on their full back and getting to what I refer to as.......The 'Magic Spot'.... which is about 8 yards from the opponents goal post going out to the corner flag. From here the winger can cut the ball back towards the penalty spot thus causing mayhem for the opposing goal keeper and centre backs. When we have had classy wingers in the past with the speed and skill to do this I have been in raptures!
These days we never seem able to get the ball into this position..........
Its what Stanley Matthews used to do.......Simple!
It should be our No 1 priority IMHO !!!!:alright: