Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Coley gets a load of criticism about using subs.... or not using them.

Conventional wisdom seems to be you should be chucking on subs when you are ahead to close down the game, and chucking on subs when behind to chase the game and hurling on subs to break the deadlock if drawing.

I'd say that it takes a genius to go against conventional wisdom, ignore the doubters and the moaners and the whingers and succeed in doing so.

Coley, if i remember correctly, won league 2 on the shocking (to some) basis of generally making very few subs and sticking with the best players being on the pitch. In fact, he even took his motley crew of misfits into div 1, whereupon they more than held their own against clubs many times larger with this same strategy.

I don't remember the details and probably "don't have a brain cell" so it would be good if a comparative analysis were done of how well Stanley do (versus other clubs) in the last 45 mins compared to the first 45 mins. Presumably, given the amount of criticism he has at the moment, the stats would condemn him?

(We would also need to make an allowance that because Stanley have less strength in depth on the subs bench than other clubs. For example, presumably Sunderland are bound to do better in the second half because of their resources)

But if only someone were to do this analysis then that might prove whether Coley is indeed a genius or fool and the bickering might stop?

STOP PRESS!!!! Oh look, here's the figures and it's clear to see..... John Coleman Football Genius

https://www.thestatsdontlie.com/foot...2nd-half-goals

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

aye its clear to see. hes top alphabetically.:rolleyes:

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

'But if only someone were to do this analysis then that might prove whether Coley is indeed a genius or fool and the bickering might stop?'

TBF we all know he's a genius. Just one with an aversion to substitutions.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Substitutions?:idunno:.............What Substitutions?:hidewall:

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Theres a graph somewhere ontwitter that shows Coley as being something like 3rd in all 4 divisions for the impact his subs have made ...

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

And on another thread on here the other day there was a statistic that ‘proved’ that Ozzie was (at that time) a more effective goal scorer than Suarez and van Persie! ;)
That’s not a criticism of the manager or the player, but of statistics.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

We’ve got a distinctly average starting 11.
We’ve got distinctly lower than average options on the bench.
The issue is the quality of recruitment not subs.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

recruitment is simply down to what can be afforded nothing else.a player trained with us then went to a lower division last week, that says it all to me.

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How many other teams at our level received £2.3 mill in transfer fees then plead “we can’t afford it”
Embarrassing.

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thats your opinion, personally think its daft, but then you were not around in 1962 i bet.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

We've been on the back foot from the start of the season with the continued absence of our talisman Billy Kee.
Since which we appear to have lost almost half the squad with a catalogue of either short or long term injuries.
Most of the players who've warmed the bench all season are on loan from Championship clubs or above.
It's easy to criticise, but some have had little or no opportunity to prove their worth, eg.- Diallo (Wolves).
With so many of Coley's regular choices under performing, perhaps it's time to give these lads a chance.
Personally, I'd bring Rodgers back in at RB, move Johnson up to RMF with Opoku in CMF & give Diallo a start.
With the current injury crisis it's time to try something new, as the usual game plan clearly isn't working.
If we go for the same old selection at Burton, we may be in for another hiding.
Come on Professor Coleman, it's time for some brave choices.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Around as in born ? Yes. Around Accrington no.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Not top alphabetically, Cashy.
Think if you bothered to look you’ll see his policy of not using subs means we are about 4th overall in Teams that have done better in the second half.

I’m pretty sure, over the years I’ve watched, that his policy of not using subs has served us well in terms of results. It’s easy to remember those games where he didn’t make a sub and we didn’t win, but what about those where he made no sub and we still went on to win? I bet those are soon forgotten.

I don’t get why people want subs. It generally means replacing a good player with an inferior one.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Disagree with that.

Subs are now an important part of the game as players performance and peak fitness can make all the difference.
Football is about gaining small margins, fitness and fatigue are key in the modern game.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

it dont matter how good a player is, if he aint at the races then its better to change him imho.also he has won games not using a sub,its common sense that, as your printing facts, how many times have we actually got away doing that?

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

As we've lost more games than we've won, we all remember the former & not the latter.
All I know is that I see the top visiting teams make tactical substitutions in nearly every game.
Some of them have resulted in us losing the game when their sub scores the winner.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Do you remember the term ' impact player ' Lord S ?. It was said that every team used to have one on their Subs bench.. even Accrington Stanley !!.
Recently, when viewing the Subs at the Wham wandering up and down the touchline, to keep their body heat up and ligaments supple I suppose ?. One cannot envisage any of them having much of an impact upon, or affecting the play and ultimate result of the game being played.
Am I then the only one to hold the opinion that currently players in a Stanley squad chosen for a game either as first choice or substitution are all as equally poor as the rest and therefore making Substitutions at any point would make no difference whatsoever !. ( Unless of course an injury forces this decision on the Manager ! ).

Is the finger of fate moving and the writing appearing on the wall ?

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Blimey, so it would seem Yonmon.
Has the Professor been studying our post's for inspiration???
Diallo gets a start & has more shots on goal than anybody else.
Then hello, hello! Along come not 1 but 2 substitutions - AT THE SAME TIME!
Altogether now....'Things can only get better'....

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

I note that Burton, a team higher up the league and playing at home, made three subs. The first as early as the 55th minute.

Yet it made no difference.

The point is, that the above proves nothing. It is just one match.

But looking at stats over a longer period of time, whilst difficult to get a rock solid conclusion, still provides some reasonable evidence.

What you think you see with your own eyes is less reliable.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

I

Exactly what my Optometrist keeps telling me Lord D !..

But if , Statistically speaking, there is a 65 percent chance that the love of your life is having an affair. ...

Then perhaps one cannot be blamed for not placing ultimate faith in the statistics surrounding the using of Substitutes in League 1 Football matches !.. 🤔😎

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Lord D, who's to say it made no difference?
As Stanley had more possession & more shots on target, it may have ensured Burton didn't lose the game.
Likewise, substituting Diallo & Charles (our scorer) in the 80th minute, may have denied us scoring an injury time winner.
Alternately, it may have ensured we came away with a well earned point.
The whole thing is subjective & depends whether you feel substitutions can influence the outcome.
Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't.
It's a mystery wrapped up in an enigma.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

To anyone who doubts the the whole value of substitutes, here's a little reminder of what happened when we met Shrewsbury at the Wham earlier this season;
When Sam Ricketts (football genius?) made 2 substitutions on 79 minutes, it changed the game.
Within 10 minutes, both Udoh & Okenabirhie had scored the goals to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat
Well, Sam Ricketts did it again tonight in the FA Cup.
2-0 down against the World Champions & runaway Premier League leaders Liverpool, they looked down & out.
With 30 minutes left, Ricketts sends on Cummings & wham bam!.... jackpot replay at Anfield.
I rest my case.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Lord S - well exactly... it’s a bit like a golfer who never takes any risks. Just eases the ball foward and not very far, but always down the middle.
This golfer is criticised because he never birdies the par 5s and often drops a shot on a long par 3.

Then there’s the go for broke golfer who birdies all the par 5s and sometimes birdies that long par 3.

With my own eyes I see the apparent stupidity of the first golfer. But over the course of a year the first golfer’s average is miles better because he’s not getting the double and triple bogies of the risk taker.

Why ignore the stats? I mean, do you not even bother with the league table? That’s just stats.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Milord, I appreciate your golfing metaphor.
However, how boring it would be if, when watching the Masters at Augusta, all the pro's played safe & scored par at every hole - YAWN!
What spectators want is the hole in one!
Likewise in football, if all teams played safe & took no risks, every game would result in a 0-0 draw.
The Shrews didn't pull a rabbit from the hat tonight by playing slow & steady, they risked all on a gamble & it paid off.
Do you think the shrews fans are for or against the use of subs??????

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Can we get Cummings as a sub, please? ;)

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

“The definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple.”
Albert Einstein.

Nowt more simple than making no subs! Coley is a genius.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

im now convinced your on drugs lol

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Aren't we all ?? ����

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Drugs or not, I've got the stats on my side and Coley has his multiple promotions.

Wot you got? A few moaning mates on the terrace who share your bitter views?

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

my views are far from bitter, just never in my life been an arse kisser.unlike some.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Is it arse licking to point out the evidence, by way of statistics, that back up an argument?

Was Brian Clough a great manager?
Me: 2 european cups with a second rate club, won the league with 2 different clubs
You: too loyal to John McGovern and John O'Hare, stop arse licking

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

in a word YES, you were.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Come on chaps! We're all on the same side here.
Let's not allow a thread on the pro's & cons of substitutes to descend into a personal slanging match.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Well there is a common denominator .......

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

so are you suggesting people dont give there opinions and tell lies my Lord? its not slanging its my honest opinion.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Cashy, of course honest opinion is always welcome .
But I fail to see how some of the above 'opinions' could be deemed to be anything other than personal abuse.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Arbitration or Moderation needed ??. 😎

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

A win on Saturday might help! :rolleyes:

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

thats down to opinion again, i do not view owt Lord D or myself said as personal abuse, if yeh think thats abuse yeh never had any,:D:D:D:D

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

i don't think it's personal abuse either.... "arse licker" quite clearly thinks he means I lavish possibly unwarranted praise on Coley without hesitation and fail to acknowledge his failings.

I used the term "bitter views". that's not abuse either for the same reasons.

Both are quite valid in the context of the debate.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

END OF DAY Lord D, is a stanley fan. whilst we will disagree on certain issues, i have no intention of falling out with him, i think its very poor if some regard it as abuse, thats my view anyway.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

And on that reasonably contrite note ? 😐.. Can we assume that peace once again settles over this interesting ,nay fascinating thread relating to .. hmmm 🤔.. Oh yes, Substitutions !.

( For the time-being anyway .? ).

😎

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Of course... world would be a boring place if people didn’t argue.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Or just change ozzys name too CUMMINGS

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

No it would not ;)

:) :) :)

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Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Subs made appropriately and at the right time in my opinion against Wimbledon today.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

agreed was good to see, we were getting a bit weary, never seem to do good,when were down a man.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Further proof of Coley’s genius then. When Pritchard was sent off he kept his calm and did nowt until the time was right.
Pleased we are all eventually coming around to my way of thinking.

Re: Substitutions and the Football Genius
 

Just watched the highlights on Quest, sorry but no way was that a dive by Pritchard - very poor call by the ref :(