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Browser Woes?
Since I ditched Explorer for Opera, 2 years ago, I haven't had one instance of homepage hijacking, unwanted popups, unwanted diallers or anything.
Plus I haven't had to download security patches ever few weeks. More info at http://browsehappy.com Give those alternative web browsers a go, you'll never look back :) Gary |
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Firefox, Opera, Mozilla, Konqueror, lynx, Galeon. Epiphany are what I can choose from on my laptop, :)
Ian |
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My one grumble with Mozilla was that it didn't show true fonts which was a shame in cases where a web site or message board owner had gone to great length to create something unique.
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The WWW is for everyone.. not just PC owning Microsoft users :) |
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:mad: People gotta start somewhere. I wanted to do one but no idea how. All credit to somebody who can make a start. Then you come along and say they shouldn't be doin it if they are not perfect.
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I said if they made an effort to make it only work on one browser...if they went to any lengths to make it only work on one type of browser.. then they shouldnt be doing it Have the decency to read my posts before complaining about them please. |
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The website owner I was referring to hadn't intended it only to look good on Internet Explorer. He had used IE when creating it and when viewed via Mozilla it didn't look the same. The fonts were not the ones he'd chosen to use. They showed up as something else.
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Legally the site owner has to make the site accessible for all.
IE is well known for being broken on many of the W3C standards. IIRC there is a checker somewhere that checks how well a browser performs. IE5 gets 0/12, IE6 gets 1/12, Mozilla gets 12, so does opera. A site should be tested in at minimum IE, Mozilla(Netscape) & Opera. If it doesn't work equally well in these then you have not done the job right. |
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And I'd definately add Safari for the mac to the minimum list of browsers to check in. Looks like I'm preaching to the converted here :) I was hoping to try and get people to give the alternative browsers a whirl. |
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<html> <head> <title>title of your webpage</title> </head> <body> The contents of your web page goes here </body> </html> Then you spend several years learning about 'Doctypes' 'Cascading stylesheets' 'semantic markup' 'validation' etc, etc, (during which time you can guarantee that half your hair will fall out due to stress ) But it is worth it, it just takes determination and a bit of what I call 'The Meccano Mentality' :) :D |
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Firefox is the one! everyone get down to http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ - this is currently the best browser out there (in my opinion). Especially if you are on 56k dialup, it renders the screen a lot quicker than evil IE. And accyweb works perfectly in it!!
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How about the Browsehappy link on your site Roy? Let the punters know that they don't have to put up with IE any longer?
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just a thought :)
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If the designer has gone to the length of making a website then they shouldn't make it so that it can only be good on one type of browser. If they can't do that then they shouldnt be making a website. That was just how it seemed to me that you were saying. What I was thinking was maybe thats all they know how to do by using the one they got and dont know yet how to make it work on others so just give em a chnace to start off learning and working with what they got and then they can learn how to do with others. I bet some people never even heard of other browsers never mind know how to get and use. You just get internet and go with what you get like when you sign up on AOL or something you get the Internet Explorer that comes with it. I never knew there was more of em. Anyway I was thinking better to let somebody start with what they know and learn going along than say they shouldn't be doing it at all. Thats all. No big deal. :) |
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FFS I really dont know why I bother some days :(
My comments where perfectly harmless and I was making a point that I stand by.. I DID NOT bellitle anyones first time eforts.. I wasn't even talking about first timers... YOU GOT IT WRONG. But hey.. no big deal so long as your OK eh ? sigh............ |
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Calm down Kipax. I only explained how I read it and so explained why I replied what I did. You write something and read it how you wrote but sometimes think that for someone else it might not come over exactly same way.
Things written can be read different. Its not like talking face to face. I took patience to explain that I misunderstood your meaning and told you how I read it. Now you taking offence at that. Who is the one here with no patience for others? Do you even realise that some people dont know what a browser is and dont realise they can have different? They get AOL and Internet Explorer is with it and all they use is AOL cos they dont know there is anything even Internet Explorer. Maybe I dont explain myself very well but Im not going to get offended because somebody maybe doesnt understand first. I will try again to explain. |
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Oh right. So now you have decided I am upset and need to calm down.. your telling everyone who can read this message that I should calm down... ?? I dont need to calm down because I am calm... but thanks for telling the rest of the forum that I need to ... charming.. Any more insults you want to pass my way for posting a message you couldnt understand?
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Ifty
To publish your site on the 'Internet' you need to put it on a webserver. To do this you ftp the HTML files and any dependants(images, stylesheets etc) to your webspace. Most webspace comes pretty much pre-configured. You can run your own web server if you like although you need Broadband at least and a static/sticky IP address. If you want to have a play without it costing you anything I can set you up a play area on my server at home. Not for commercial use, you understand and anything I don't like will be pulled. Ian |
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I think the answer is FTP
Ifty needs to look for an FTP program as he seems to know about web space FTP = File Transfer Protocol (spello?) Its a program that in simple terms will open two windows... Window A will show contents of your hard drive Window B will show contents of your web space. You enter the webspace name and your username and password as allocated by whoever gives you webspace... Then you simply copy your files over just like you would while moving files around your own HD Files will instantly show up on your webspace |
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I must admit that I know very little on the subject and have simply gone along with the IE6 (I think) which came along with my PC. |
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I also use Opera for when I am out and about with the laptop.. Its one click to make it not show pictures and thus speed up the pages which is needed when using a mobile phone... I also have other browsers for testing my work on (no I dont make websites) But my everyday browser of choice is always IE 3/4/5 and now 6 |
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Do you have more than one browser on the same PC? I was wondering about possible compatibility problems and if any of them are likely to cause difficulties with AOL.
Don't tell me to ditch AOL lol because I actually like it although I have had other people tell me that alternatives are better. I like the new features on AOL9 and admit to enjoying the quiz rooms. |
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All browsers on same PC .. it doesnt matter.. just like you can have more than one of any software.
Can't say I like AOL but each to his own.. if it works for you then keep it.. thats the general rule :) Like I say.. nowt wrong with IE .. its mostly people who hate Microsoft who are against it..... I dont use outlook or any MS email client or anythign so they cant integrate and hackers cant get at my email lists or owt :) |
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I've never used outlook express. Just a bit wary of AOL crashing if I download an alternative browser.
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why would you want to? Most of the internet uses IE any slight differences in output would be minor and not much point... Unless you ahve a real need for other browsers (as I ahve) then stick with what works is my advice..
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Just looking at the post which says it's a legal requirement for the site to be accessible to all.
Without the other browsers to check it through - how do you know? I've got this silly little thing about the Arndale Clock but it's only created on AOL so I don't even know what, if anything, can be viewed by other browsers. |
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First off there are over a hundred different browsers... Theres browsers on set-top tvs, browsers on mobile phones and palm pilots.. browsers on atari and amiga and mac and other computers.... each have lots of different browsers to choose from
You dont check them.. you dont need to.. You make your website correctly and it will work on all. You use validation software or websites to find if its fully accesible.. ie http://validator.w3.org It is NOTa legal requirement to ahve your website work in all browsers. |
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It basically means a person who is say blind.. should have the same acess to any service you are offering as a non blind person would have.. This means a blind persons browser that speaks the contents to him must be able to read your page.. People who use things like FLASH for there websites will be in big trouble at this point as accesibility is about 1 on a scale of 1-10 :) But.. Its not really going to effect anyone unless your offering a service and a disabled person makes a complaint and that complaint is upheld.. which beleive me it wouldnt be in your case and most other websites.... BT, British Rail and companies like that however are going to find themselves with lots of complaints.. |
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Ok I am going to ask because I genuinly want to know an answer.
That validating site doesn't validate the animated gif emoticons here. So what happens if a blind person wants to post on here? Do you mean they can do it but can't use emoticons? Does that mean they can complain? Also if it has to be accessible by everyone how about private pages such as photo album and journal which can now be private or public? I just realised Willow that is a link to your Arndale Clock. |
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Thats why they have an ALT tag for people who cant see or dont want to see pictures. Therefore the ALT tag replaces the picture and nothing to complain about.
Just because it didn't validate doesn't mean it wouldn't work.. only that the chances are it wont work on all browsers.. |
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IE5.5 W3C DOM Conformance Test Level 1 Core/HTML Interfaces FAIL Level 1 Core/XML Interfaces FAIL Level 2 Core Interfaces FAIL Level 2 HTML Interfaces FAIL Level 2 XML Interfaces FAIL Abstract View Interface FAIL Generic Style Sheet Traversal FAIL CSS Styles [Views] FAIL CSS2 Properties Interface [CSS] FAIL Event Handling Infrastructure FAIL User Interface Events [Events, Views] FAIL Mouse Events [UIEvents] FAIL HTML Events [Events] FAIL Document Mutation Events [Events] FAIL Document Range Interfaces FAIL Document Traversal Interfaces FAIL Your browser passed 0 of 16 tests. I believe IE6 managed to pass 1 test. Whereas Konqueror Level 1 Core/HTML Interfaces PASS > Level 1 Core/XML Interfaces PASS > Level 2 Core Interfaces PASS > Level 2 HTML Interfaces PASS > Level 2 XML Interfaces PASS > Abstract View Interface FAIL > Generic Style Sheet Traversal FAIL > CSS Styles [Views] FAIL > CSS2 Properties Interface [CSS] FAIL > Event Handling Infrastructure PASS > User Interface Events [Events, Views] PASS > Mouse Events [UIEvents] PASS > HTML Events [Events] PASS > Document Mutation Events [Events] PASS > Document Range Interfaces FAIL > Document Traversal Interfaces FAIL > > Your browser passed 10 of 16 tests. ------------------------------------- > Mozilla: > ------------------------------------- > Level 1 Core/HTML Interfaces PASS > Level 1 Core/XML Interfaces PASS > Level 2 Core Interfaces PASS > Level 2 HTML Interfaces PASS > Level 2 XML Interfaces PASS > Abstract View Interface PASS > Generic Style Sheet Traversal PASS > CSS Styles [Views] PASS > CSS2 Properties Interface [CSS] PASS > Event Handling Infrastructure PASS > User Interface Events [Events, Views] FAIL > Mouse Events [UIEvents] PASS > HTML Events [Events] PASS > Document Mutation Events [Events] FAIL > Document Range Interfaces PASS > Document Traversal Interfaces FAIL > > Your browser passed 13 of 16 tests. > ---------------------------------------- > > Seems to suggest that IE does have the odd thing or 15 wrong with it :) Ian |
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Found the URL ( site has been taken down but Google cache is your friend)
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...nce_test&hl=en Ian |
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You can have all the tests you want... IE works OK and always has. However there are a lot of MS haters around who would like to prove otherwise... Sorry but the proof is in the pudding. IE works
Hands up everyone who is ditching IE and getting another browser based on the above test....... Hmmmmm no one ? |
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To the uninitiated can you please explain what a mouse event is?
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I changed to Mozilla a while ago and will not be going back to IE not due to any test's but just due to IE allowing my computer to be filled with things I DONT want, and Mozilla does not and seem's better thought out :)
I am a computer novice so that is why i have done the above, I am sure you can (if you know what you are doing) set up IE to work how you want it to, I could not but Mozilla does it automatically.;) |
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Standards are there for a reason. How many people would like it if VW suddenly deceided that the accelerator should be on the left and the clutch on the right. Me thinks their market share would drop rather rapidly. If you build web sites/apps for a living then it is a real pain making sure your site looks right in IE despite it having passed W3c Validators. More importantly it costs TIME & MONEY. IIRC the latest stats showed Mozilla gained over 10% market share back in the last 6 months. I have nothing directly against Microsoft. If their product worked, was decent value for money and didn't compromise my system then I will happily use it. Unfortunately most of their software is lucky to fit one of the above. My 2p anyway. Ian |
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I've got built in Google and pop up stopper.
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As for mozila getting an extra 10% of the market.. well according to most stats they dont even have 10% let alone an extra 10% Your not even talking a good argument... the only facts you show are pretty useless and even you admit no one would change browsers after reading them. Millions upon millions of people us IE and it works great... most internet users are using it.... If you spend the rest of your life trying to convince them it doesnt work (when they can see it does) then your still not going to convince enough people to make the slightest difference because for every one person you convince... thousand more start using it.. When it doesn't work then i will stop using it.. not when someone tries to convince me with figures that it doesnt work.. |
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Ok guys I think we are getting confused a bit. The reason IE ends up having it's home page changed etc. is simple and also the same reason that MS OS's are seen to be insecure. Hackers go for MS. That's it if the same hackers went at Mac, LINUX, or different browsers then they would probablt get an equal amount of problems. This put's MS in a tough position a victim of their own success. Apprently Mozilla based browsers now take up 15% of webusers as this increases so will the 'problems', currently it's just not worth the hassle when you can go for MS and get 70% of browsers. I have tried these other browsers but find sites that don't render (yes lazt developers) but I never have a problem with IE ,so I end up going back.
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I tend to do everything through AOL anyway. If the IE homepage has changed it has only ever been when one of the kids has clicked "make this your homepage" when they've been on a site and it's simple enough to get back to the default page I had in the beginning.
Occasionally I minimise AOL and go direct through IE but that's rare. I'm one of those people who likes to have loads of things going at once - Busman will tell you I have far too many windows open and programs running. |
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As for all this about mizlla getting 15% of the market... take a look at the AUG stats for a certain website I run MS Internet Explorer 604808 92.3 % Unknown 24658 3.7 % Mozilla 16113 2.4 % Safari 3164 0.4 % Netscape 3152 0.4 % Opera 2193 0.3 % Firebird 334 0 % Konqueror 93 0 % ANT Fresco 90 0 % Links 90 0 % 92% MS IE and 8% covers the rest put together.... They are real figures from a real website |
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Isn't it a strange fact that despite the majority of web sites are being hosted on Linux by far the majority of attacks are directed at IIS. I have the logs to prove it. Microsoft believe in security through obscurity. This clearly does not work. *nix was built on model where users are seperated from system. Microsoft seem to be happy for everyone to be admin. Until Microsoft seperate these two there will always be problems. That is why the current figure quoted for the time taken for an unprotected windows box visible on the internet to become a spam zombie riddled with viruses is less than 10 minutes! If you'd like to try the same on my Linux server I'll happily turn off the firewall adn give you the IP. Lets see if you can alter a sample page on my web server ,tell the name of a file on the filesystem in a pre determined place, or send an email from my box. PS your figure of 93 for Konqueror must be wrong, I'm on here far more than that :) Ian |
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So whose site were you quoting? One thing I also forgot until I had hit submit was that your stats show what the browsers report. There are numerous sites that do not work correctly unless your browser identifies as IE5.5 or higher. That is why most decent browser allows you to change what is presented. I use a couple of MSN forums and have my browser identify me as IE6 on XP(rather than the Konqueror on Gentoo Linux) as this makes the site more useable. Unfortunately it screws that stats as well.
You seem to believe that IE is a good browser, I am really sorry for you. Yes it works in that it displays sites, slow and clunky but yes it does work. Not to standards and this then encourages lazy developers which then causes other problems. If we carry on accepting this shoddy workmanship then MIcrosoft will continue to produce it. Look at SP2 as an example. It took over 6 months fot some vunerabilities to be patched. And then in patching these it breaks other quite fundamental things. In the open source community vunerabilities are patched usually the same day. MY system needs next to zero maintainance with a simple cron job that updates overnight. Our job as responsible techies it to promote standards and choice. The more people that try Firefox et al the better. Even if this means that Microsoft pull their finger out and produce decent software. I spend far too much time fixing other peoples PCs because they have fallen victim to scams/viruses/spyware/malware. Slowly but surely they try the alternatives and my worries cease. I wish you well with your browser, may you live happily ever after( though I doubt that will be the case :) ) Ian |
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Lazy developers are just that.. the industry is riddled with them and isnt this where I came in? By saying if people go to lengths to make a website that only wors on one browser??? Its not the browsers fault.. its the lazy programmer and you cant blame IE for that... Thats why I ahve NS installed.. its always been better for developing because it renders the page after it gets the code and not while its getting it... for example a table with no ending will be shown on ie while its loading... sloppy... but on NS it will not be shown because its still looking for end table.. the above is best for a developer... BUT for an end user like most people on here... IE is better because it shows the info they want to see rather than leave them with a blank page..its sloppy and bad practice but it means the user gets to see the web page Quote:
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Re: Browser Woes?
Yes, IE is the browser being used at the moment. It wasn't always like that though and with a bit of help it may soon be back on a more even keel. Personally I would love to see a 3 way split between IE, Mozilla and Opera with others taking a nice 10% or so share.
Who said I charge to fix PC's? I don't , I do it for friends because they are exactly that. They help me when I need something. If you would like to see a fast rendering browser have a look at Dillo. OK, not very featureful as yet but geesh it flies! Oh and never fight trolls, they go away on their own. Or am I eating my own medicine here :) Lazy developers get away with being that because of IE. If you ran a site and people couldn't see it because you coded it incorrectly then you wouldn't get any customers. If IE met these standards then the world would be a brave new place. More often than not it is down to the people who design the sites(not necessarily those who code it) that just don't understand what the requirements are. Ian |
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Coming back to the website designers and something Ifty said a while back. Could it not simply be that some people are learning and not that they are lazy? To learn they have to start somewhere and as the most likely have IE then they will see what they have created via IE ( as will the majority of people viewing it). Perhaps (like my little AOL hometown offering) they are not out to reach vast armies of customers but merely learning how to do something by hands on experience. I know that the only way I learn anything is by attempting to do it. I could read any number of instructions but they go straight through my brain, however if I do something then I stand a better chance of remembering how it's done. (as with emoticon creation which is something I enjoy doing) As they learn more then they will become more skilled and more aware of others browsers and how things are seen via them.
When I did a teacher training course I remember it being illustrated that people immediately absorb about 10% of what you tell them if you simply speak to them, about 20% of it if they are involved in discussion, but 80% if there is practical hands on experience. Oh drat, there go statististics again! |
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We are talking about profesionals.. or so called profesionals who pretend to know what there doing and produce a website that only works on some browsers.. thats lazy when with a bit more effort they could produce a website that works on all browsers..
Thats why we are reffering to them as developers... we aint really on about personal sites made with a wysiwyg toy :) Also the point quite rightly being made by the other side is that if IE was to conform to the rules then you would find it harder to make a bad website because IE lets you produce a bad one while browsers like netscape doesnt.. hence why i use netscape for development |
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I realise AOLhometown is a WYSIWYG "toy" as you put it - used simply because it's:
a) there b) quick c) easy but that doesn't mean that someone like me wouldn't prefer to create something more customised and specific. The main reason why I never get round to it is lack of time, and the more I post on Accyweb the less time I have.;) It's a case of stepping stones. Each one leading to a more ambitious one. |
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eeerm I know....
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In the case of certain browsers suffering more from viruses it boils down to the barn door syndrome. The bigger it is, the easier it is to hit.
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