Accrington Web

Accrington Web (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/index.php)
-   Questions and Answers (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f66/)
-   -   Old Pubs (https://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f66/old-pubs-53656.html)

Bob Dobson 12-08-2011 09:46

Re: Old Pubs
 
I read a 1929 Observer yesterday. The Chief Constable's report to the Brewster ( Licensing) Sessions.....There are 103 licensed premises in Acc :- 44 innkeepers,29 Beerhouses (on) , 21 beerhouses (off),5 others (off) Population is 43,595 which is one premises per 423 citizens. 38 prosecuted for various licensing offences such as drunk & disorderly. 22 registered clubs of which Spring Hill WMC had biggest membership -732

Only licence not renewed was the Oak Tree in Abbey St and a separate hearing took place in March to hear police objections.It was a Dutton's hoiuse, one of five they had in the immediate vicinity. They had owned it for 50yrs. 20yrs previously they had survived a police objection. Now police said it was in poor state of repair and sanitary arrangements were poor. .It had a bar parlour,tap room, snug,billiard room, 2 cellars, 2 club rooms and a piano room. It was selling 4 barrels (of 36 galls = 288pints)
The Red Lion was 31yds away Within 100yds there were 3 fully licensed houses, within 220 yards there were 9 fully licensed, 6 beer houses and 2 off-licences.
The licence was revoked and put forward for compensation. The tenant licensee was Mr Hamer, who had had it for less than a year.

jaysay 12-08-2011 09:50

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 925684)
no n it aint closed was in it a couple of weeks ago.

Was shut and empty last Wednesday:confused:

cashman 12-08-2011 09:53

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 925697)
Was shut and empty last Wednesday:confused:

they dont open wednesdays yeh dummy.:D:D

JEFF 12-08-2011 11:25

Re: Old Pubs
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 925586)
was Ken Cleggs, who used to be on Bull Bridge before Cryer took it oer i think, me cousin who is my age, has worked yon since he left school.


Nice picture here Cashy

Attachment 18216

cashman 12-08-2011 11:50

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JEFF (Post 925730)
Nice picture here Cashy

Attachment 18216

Cheers fer that Jeff, happy days.:)

Wynonie Harris 12-08-2011 12:22

Re: Old Pubs
 
Nice shot, Jeff. That brings back happy memories!

Retlaw 12-08-2011 13:11

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Dobson (Post 925432)
There was an Oak Tree in Acc as well as in Church. It was in Abbey St and closed down in 1929. I will dig up some info on it.

The Olde Black Bull ()its real name) was on King St, under the railway viaduct at the end of Hyndburn Rd It was Accrington's earliest pub, and the bridge over the river there is probably called Bull Bridge because it was close by the pub, whose name to locals would be shortened to The Bull. This spot was a main thoroughfare long before the turnpike was laid down and called Abbey St

The Oak Tree in may have closed down in 1929, BUT it was still operating as a pub in the 1930's & 40's.
I lived in Hargreaves St, and passed it practically every day, my best mate lived next door.
As for the Bull on Bull Bridge, IT WAS NOT UNDER THE VIADUCT, it was the only Coaching Inn, in the Old Hold of Accrington back in the 1600's, it was rebuilt in the 1700's.
The landlord in 1660 was Henry Emmot, he paid 6d in taxes to king Charles, on his restoration to the throne.
Retlaw

cashman 12-08-2011 13:13

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 925756)
The Oak Tree in may have closed down in 1929, BUT it was still operating as a pub in the 1930's & 40's.
I lived in Hargreaves St, and passed it practically every day, my best mate lived next door.
As for the Bull on Bull Bridge it was the only Coaching Inn, in the Old Hold of Accrington back in the 1600's, it was rebuilt in the 1700's.
The landlord in 1660 was Henry Emmot, he paid 6d in taxes to king Charles, on his restoration to the throne.
Retlaw

and they demolished it fer a useless friggin car park.:rolleyes:

Bob Dobson 12-08-2011 16:36

Re: Old Pubs
 
OK The Bull was not UNDER the viaduct but under its shadow in the evening sunshine.

Possible that Dutton's appealed the Oak Tree's 1929 closure and it got re-instated. The Oak Tree over Church way was a Liin house. It is unlikely, but not impossible, that there would have been two pubs of the same name in the town. I will enquire.

Tealeaf 12-08-2011 17:10

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 925756)
As for the Bull on Bull Bridge, IT WAS NOT UNDER THE VIADUCT, it was the only Coaching Inn, in the Old Hold of Accrington back in the 1600's, it was rebuilt in the 1700's.
The landlord in 1660 was Henry Emmot, he paid 6d in taxes to king Charles, on his restoration to the throne.
Retlaw

Err....I've alway's understood a Coaching Inn to be a place for a horse change, refreshment and possibly an overnight stop over. I'm not aware of any regular scheduled coach services running North/South or East/West in the 1600's. The pub was certainly there from the 1600's (and probably before) but other than that it's use would have been as a general boozer and occaisional stopover for any toffs travelling north/south (east-west would have gone Burnley-Clayton-Blackburn or Haslingden-Blackburn). I can't see exactly how it can be described as a coaching house for any regular service.

Certainly, the White Swan & the Red Lion could be described as coaching houses in the first few decades of the 19th century.

Retlaw 12-08-2011 19:11

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 925828)
Err....I've alway's understood a Coaching Inn to be a place for a horse change, refreshment and possibly an overnight stop over. I'm not aware of any regular scheduled coach services running North/South or East/West in the 1600's. The pub was certainly there from the 1600's (and probably before) but other than that it's use would have been as a general boozer and occaisional stopover for any toffs travelling north/south (east-west would have gone Burnley-Clayton-Blackburn or Haslingden-Blackburn). I can't see exactly how it can be described as a coaching house for any regular service.

Certainly, the White Swan & the Red Lion could be described as coaching houses in the first few decades of the 19th century.

Just because you have'nt found a regular coach run in the 1660's, doesn't mean that coaches didn't use it as such. There were 30 families paying taxes in the Old Hold of Accrington that year, I don't think the income from them, would have kept it running just as an ale house.
In those days a lot of people brewed there own ale, it would have been healthier than the local water supplies at the time.
The Red Lion didn't apppear until 1820's, the owner being Jacob Lang, the ratable value of the Red Lion was 56-5s-0d in 1828.
Retlaw.

Tealeaf 12-08-2011 19:45

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 925885)
Just because you have'nt found a regular coach run in the 1660's, doesn't mean that coaches didn't use it as such. There were 30 families paying taxes in the Old Hold of Accrington that year, I don't think the income from them, would have kept it running just as an ale house.
In those days a lot of people brewed there own ale, it would have been healthier than the local water supplies at the time.
The Red Lion didn't apppear until 1820's, the owner being Jacob Lang, the ratable value of the Red Lion was 56-5s-0d in 1828.
Retlaw.

But that's just it, Walter. I have alway's understood the term 'Coaching Inn' to refer to an Inn which offered a regular coach service by some timetable (however loose). I have no doubt that the country gentry would have used the pub as a stop over, but until we can see documentary evidence that this was used as a regular route stop by a public coach service, then I can't see how this can be referred to as a Coaching Inn.

But you've probably got it right about the number of tax paying families and those brewing their own ale. 'Small Ale' was the stuff that people drank in place of water - certainly before coffee and tea - but not everyone brewed it - many bought it. I suspect the Bull - a pub I hold dearly - would have had a multi-function 400 years ago, of which feeding passing horses and their cargo was only a small part

cashman 12-08-2011 20:30

Re: Old Pubs
 
i was always told in 60s the "Bull" was n old "Grain Court" whatever that was,:confused: twas the landlord Ken Green that told me, in recent times i have been told it was not, so aint a sodding clue.:confused:

Gordon Booth 12-08-2011 20:35

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 925408)
I wonder if the 'recipe' for Crystal Ale was kept after Matthew Brown/Lions was shut down. I assume it's the mixture of hops/malt but what exactly was it that gave it the gas? Was it the yeast? The brewing process? Whatever, it's a pint that's sorely missed and it would be nice to see one of the microbreweries resurrect the brew...some of the kids now don't know what they're missing.

I tried that Thwaites '3 C's' last weekend...a lovely brew. reminded me a bit of the old Boddingtons, before that got ruined.

Wasn't it called Crystal Ale because they used Crystal hops which was quite unusual? It certainly was a good pint.

Retlaw 12-08-2011 20:37

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 925902)
But that's just it, Walter. I have alway's understood the term 'Coaching Inn' to refer to an Inn which offered a regular coach service by some timetable (however loose). I have no doubt that the country gentry would have used the pub as a stop over, but until we can see documentary evidence that this was used as a regular route stop by a public coach service, then I can't see how this can be referred to as a Coaching Inn.

But you've probably got it right about the number of tax paying families and those brewing their own ale. 'Small Ale' was the stuff that people drank in place of water - certainly before coffee and tea - but not everyone brewed it - many bought it. I suspect the Bull - a pub I hold dearly - would have had a multi-function 400 years ago, of which feeding passing horses and their cargo was only a small part

Ee tharard wurk.
There were 3 ways into the Old Hold of Accrington in those days, which was used by travelers. From Burnley, down what later became Burnley Rd Circa 1828, from Whalley along what was later Whalley Rd, (built by Blind Jack o Knaresborough 1791/2) that route went down Milnshaw Lane, the other route came from Blackburn, and entered Accy along Allom Lane which came out facing the Bull.
Just because there weren't many regular coach services running into & out of Accy in those day, does'nt they couldn't up their prestige by advertising themselves as a coaching Inn.
Its surprising how many people moved round the country in those days.
Retlaw.

Retlaw 12-08-2011 20:47

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 925910)
i was always told in 60s the "Bull" was n old "Grain Court" whatever that was,:confused: twas the landlord Ken Green that told me, in recent times i have been told it was not, so aint a sodding clue.:confused:

Way back in the distant past, there was a building in Accy, now partly covered by the Clown Hall, it was known as Court Farm, where the de Lacy's held the annual Halmote Courts, 12 men formed a jury, led by de Lacy, or his representative, which tried all events crimes or misdemeanours, which had occured during the previous year. There used to be books in Accy library of these Halmote Courts. I think the first account is some time in the 1400's.
One episode still comes to mind, a woman was fined for sewing a shirt on a Sunday.

Retlaw

Bob Dobson 12-08-2011 20:56

Re: Old Pubs
 
I've never heard the term 'grain court' but it might have had something to do with the corn mill just across the road in Hyndburn Rd, then called Hagg Lane.

I too think that 'coaching inn' can be a term which takes in horse-drawn travel of any sort. It could have been the reason why a farrier /blacksmith was just around the corner from The Bull. I think that the name Bull Brtidge is still visible in the wall of the old bridge somewhere near the car park entrance, pout there buy the County Council c 1890, but it is likely, certainly possible, that there was a bridge there before that, and before a bridge there would be just a ford. It could be said that this was the very centre of Accrington in (say) 1700

cashman 12-08-2011 21:04

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Dobson (Post 925923)
I've never heard the term 'grain court' but it might have had something to do with the corn mill just across the road in Hyndburn Rd, then called Hagg Lane.

I too think that 'coaching inn' can be a term which takes in horse-drawn travel of any sort. It could have been the reason why a farrier /blacksmith was just around the corner from The Bull. I think that the name Bull Brtidge is still visible in the wall of the old bridge somewhere near the car park entrance, pout there buy the County Council c 1890, but it is likely, certainly possible, that there was a bridge there before that, and before a bridge there would be just a ford. It could be said that this was the very centre of Accrington in (say) 1700

always wondered how Haggs lodge got its name, now i know.:);)

DaveinGermany 12-08-2011 21:07

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth (Post 925915)
Wasn't it called Crystal Ale because they used Crystal hops which was quite unusual? It certainly was a good pint.

I think it more likely to be "Crystal Malt" rather than the hops. :)

Crystal Malt: The Definitive Guide To Using and Making It

Tealeaf 12-08-2011 21:15

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw (Post 925916)
Ee tharard wurk.
There were 3 ways into the Old Hold of Accrington in those days, which was used by travelers. From Burnley, down what later became Burnley Rd Circa 1828, from Whalley along what was later Whalley Rd, (built by Blind Jack o Knaresborough 1791/2) that route went down Milnshaw Lane, the other route came from Blackburn, and entered Accy along Allom Lane which came out facing the Bull.
Just because there weren't many regular coach services running into & out of Accy in those day, does'nt they couldn't up their prestige by advertising themselves as a coaching Inn.
Its surprising how many people moved round the country in those days.
Retlaw.

But that's exactly it, Walter - the dates. This stuff is all the later part of the 18C/early 19th - there is no evidence whatsoever about a coaching service in the 17th or even early 18th century. Logic would suggest that there would be a direct route south between Clitheroe and Manchester and a rough reconstruction of the topography of the time would suggest a route coming by Clayton and through Accy, but where exactly it would cross the river I don't know. But allowing for that, where is the evidence of a coach service?

I certainly don't buy an East/West route Accy-Blackburn, simply because of deep stream valleys to be crossed on the way - the Tinker, the Aspden and the Knuzden brooks. Thats's why Blackburn Rd was not laid down until after it was shown the canal could bridge the former two in the early 1820's

I have no doubt that wagons and private coaches stopped at and used the Bull; but my guess is their main travelling guests would have been sheep rovers and the like.

Retlaw 12-08-2011 22:34

Re: Old Pubs
 
[quote=Tealeaf;925932]But that's exactly it, Walter - the dates. This stuff is all the later part of the 18C/early 19th -
Those routes I quoted were the old routes into Old Accy. The dates I gave are when those old highways were eventually made into proper roads.
Those routes must have been well used for them to have been made up, practically every river has a ford or a bridge some where along its route.
Tha lives nearer to public record office than what I do, go and have a look.
Retlaw.

Retlaw 12-08-2011 22:44

Re: Old Pubs
 
I have no doubt that wagons and private coaches stopped at and used the Bull; but my guess is their main travelling guests would have been sheep rovers and the like.[/quote]
Cattle & sheep drovers were more likely to bed down near their stock, on common land, than stay in places like the Bull or the Bay Horse.

Retlaw.

anzac 12-08-2011 22:49

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Dobson (Post 925923)
I've never heard the term 'grain court' but it might have had something to do with the corn mill just across the road in Hyndburn Rd, then called Hagg Lane.

I too think that 'coaching inn' can be a term which takes in horse-drawn travel of any sort. It could have been the reason why a farrier /blacksmith was just around the corner from The Bull. I think that the name Bull Brtidge is still visible in the wall of the old bridge somewhere near the car park entrance, pout there buy the County Council c 1890, but it is likely, certainly possible, that there was a bridge there before that, and before a bridge there would be just a ford. It could be said that this was the very centre of Accrington in (say) 1700

I bought a fantastic book a few weeks ago in a Charity Shop called "The Accrington Old Water Corn Mill - it's History and Owners"

Really interesting read about the Corn Mill and it's surroundings

cashman 12-08-2011 22:50

Re: Old Pubs
 
now that does sound interesting anzac.

Tealeaf 12-08-2011 22:58

Re: Old Pubs
 
Talking about mills, this piccy cropped up the other day on the Homebase site. Am I the only one that sees an outline of a waterwheel on the old building on the right:

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...uct-10635.html

It's the piccy on the left...the links have gone to pot.

Retlaw 13-08-2011 00:07

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf (Post 926024)
Talking about mills, this piccy cropped up the other day on the Homebase site. Am I the only one that sees an outline of a waterwheel on the old building on the right:

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...uct-10635.html

It's the piccy on the left...the links have gone to pot.

Is this what your on about.
http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/s.../paperclip.gif were is this ? (http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/s.../multipage.gif 123456)
Retlaw.

jaysay 13-08-2011 08:16

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 925910)
i was always told in 60s the "Bull" was n old "Grain Court" whatever that was,:confused: twas the landlord Ken Green that told me, in recent times i have been told it was not, so aint a sodding clue.:confused:

Was he any relation to Ted Green who had what is now the Bees Knees cashy

cashman 13-08-2011 09:06

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysay (Post 926055)
Was he any relation to Ted Green who had what is now the Bees Knees cashy

Nah, dont reckon so, this guy was pretty clever.:D was a member of the "Magic Circle":D

jaysay 13-08-2011 09:25

Re: Old Pubs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 926078)
Nah, dont reckon so, this guy was pretty clever.:D was a member of the "Magic Circle":D

Ya mean he used to make your wage disappear every week cashy:D

Bob Dobson 14-08-2011 15:37

Re: Old Pubs
 
There are some cracking photos in the book 'Industry & Prudence' ; a lan for Accrington (1950) including ones of the Australian & the Olde Black Bull (p86) and The Warner Arms when it had a shop alongside it on the Church St side -now part of the pub. (p109) There's one which might have been taken from the front door of the Black Bull (p63) One just catches the Abbey (p52). I think there's one wjhch shows the side of the Arden and the name of the Blackburn Brewing Company(?) on it but I cannot now find it. There's also a drawing - very scarce this - of Bank Brewery (p18)

anzac 14-08-2011 15:59

Re: Old Pubs
 
That was another book I bought a couple of weeks ago in The British Heart Foundation Shop in Accrington - really interesting book full of wonderful old photographs


All times are GMT. The time now is 21:24.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
© 2003-2013 AccringtonWeb.com