None stick pans
 

07 Jun 2005, 03:46:00 PM




The sizzle of food in your frypan, it always smells so good but be careful what you breathe in.

Who would have guessed that the fumes from this non-stick frypan in most Australian households, might give you the flu, dangerous chemicals linked to cancer, infertility, thyroid and immune problems in laboratory animals and they can even kill birds.

Bob Symons is a scientist at the National Measurement Institute. He says these chemicals or perfluorinated compounds, that come off over-heated frypans are in the blood of 95 percent of Americans. He wants to study our population's blood and research levels in food and the environment.

"Because these compounds are very persistent it takes a long time for them to break down and the more were exposed the greater levels they're going to be in our blood… The longer they stay in the blood in our bodies the more chance they have to interact with ourselves and different organs."

The dangerous chemicals start coming off the pan when reaching temperatures between 315 and 350 degrees. After this you may get the flu. Let's see how quickly it gets to the danger point without any food in it. Bob uses an infrared thermometer... and guess what? It only took 2 minutes and 45 seconds.

Mother of two Moa Alfven was shocked at this result in her own kitchen.

Now lets test the temperature while cooking bacon. This time it took 4 minutes 21 to reach the dangerous levels - a minute and a half longer.

Go and buy a non-stick frypan and you wont find a health warning anywhere, however they do caution against cooking over 260 degrees celsius but don't say why. But go to Dupont's teflon website and eventually you will find a warning of "flu-like symptoms, chills, fever and sore throat from vapors emitted during hot cooking buried in the fine print.

"They haven't put a warning on the pans because thats where the people would see it and it would stop people from buying the pans." Tim Cropp is a senior scientist with the environmental working group, an association in the US that is calling for a consumer warning of all non-stick frypans. "There's no requirement for anyone to be notified of the problems with these pans because most of it falls under consumer safety and because consumers aren't able to complain about this because they don't even know when they've been harmed, theres no action."

"We may not kill ourselves directly we may not even feel the acute effects of this chemical soup we live in, but what we do is impact on the future generations of our children growing up." Dr Marianne Lloyd-Smith is national coordinator of the National Toxics Network. She says its not just the flu we should worry about... lab animal studies have uncovered severe health problems. "They've been shown by research from some of the manufacturers to cause cancer, to cause liver disease, reproductive problems and a whole load of developmental problems as well."

The fumes are also known to kill birds. Carly McGee was boiling meat for 90 minutes on high heats, in a non-stick saucepan, with her healthy young peach faced parrot in the kitchen. "Two hours after we cooked he got a little uncordinated and dizzy and so we put him back in the cage didn't know what was up then I looked up and he was actually dead in the bottom of the cage."

Carly pondered why her bird died but after searching the web she found 47,000 sites about over heated non-stick pans killing birds. She's now concerned for her unborn child and now only cooks using stainless steel. "I don't even like to breathe in say the cleaning products that I clean with, or somebody smoking a cigarette, let alone something that can kill a bird, but if you smoke a cigarette around a bird, he doesn't drop dead in a cage."

But don't think its just non-stick frypans...these chemicals are in many other products. Bob looks around Moa's house - pointing out where they hide. "The carpet has stain resistant coatings that have perfluorinated compounds… your chairs and potentially your couch could have stain resistant coatings… and maybe even the leather jacket your wearing. The sandwich maker here has the teflon on both sides non stick coating and probably in your drawer here you've probably got utensils here with teflon coating."

Obviously you don't heat the carpet or couch up so how are they emitted?

"The compounds are volatile enough to get into the air, then they breakdown to the more resistant perfluroinated compounds."

Millions of us around the world have been using non-stick cookware blissfully ignorant for 70 years but its now emerging that Dupont may have known about these worrying health implications for the past 20 years, including birth defects in the babies of some Dupont factory workers. Now the US environmental protection agency is taking legal action against Dupont on this hidden knowledge but Dupon deny any wrong doing.

"We believe we are in the clear, were cooperating totally with the EPA, we've given them all the information, we don't believe there's a health effect from PFOA, human health effects." Leo Hide is Dupont's Australian research and development manager. He says only factory workers have reported flu-like symptoms due to higher exposure levels. "If you get above 350-400 the coating will start to decompose but the levels are so low that the probability of anyone getting fume fever from cookware to the best of our knowledge we haven't had a case in this country."

He says because Dupont doesn't make the cookware, only the teflon coating, they can't warn consumers on the products.

Why not put it on the teflon seal? "We put out a series of brochures which we send out tens of thousands every year, this is in Australia specifically, with warnings on those brochures" answers Leo.

But Dupont's critics aren't convinced, even the Federal US Dept of Justice has subpoenaed Dupont on more information on the health effects.

"This is a very large public health problem, you have a chemical that never breaks down, that's in everyones blood that causes many types of health effects that is the most serious problem, you're ever going to encounter with a chemical."

"I just think that people should be made aware, knowledge is your best bet, if you can arm yourself with knowledge then maybe you make different decisions" says Carli.

Re: None stick pans
 

thats a new one, but when frying how the heck do you know when you are reaching critical temp??

Re: None stick pans
 

Stick yer finger in the pan and you'll find out.

Re: None stick pans
 

I was told a number of years ago when I bought a cockateal not to burn non stick pans as the fumes could kill it. But I didn't think it applied to humans.

Re: None stick pans
 

well, my non stick pans never stay non stick for long.......at least i'm honest

Re: None stick pans
 

ime safe

pixie cremates anything she trys to cook not even the most stubborn chemicals could survive her cooking :D

Re: None stick pans
 

if we beleived everything that is said about what we eat and drink and how we do things with food etc etc ......WE WOULD BE DEAD because we wouldnt risk eating or drinking anything ....ive been eating fry ups bbq sauce and all that malarky for years and im ok (well im a bit numb in the head but i cant blame food for that ..lol)

Re: None stick pans
 

Funnily enough, there was a few of us from on here talking about something similar in the Stag on sunday afternoon. The question was: "How do you clean a Big George Grill? (one that has had quite a bit of use)

Those of you who pocess such a kitchen implement know that you can't just sling the whole lot into a tub of hot soapy water; the manufacturer recomends rubbing down with oil, while hot. However, I invariably end up burning my hands. Does anyone know of any good method?

Re: None stick pans
 

Get someone else to do it and let them burn their hands instead!

Re: None stick pans
 

i use a pad not a scourer and just wipe it down when its cooling off,then wipe over with a tea-towel, thats after i have cooked on it about eight times first though trying to build my anti-bodies up.

Re: None stick pans
 

You get flu from a virus, not from a pan, but ...

Non-stick pans are useless. They do stick, and every time you clean them a bit more of the non-stick comes off. Best of all is heavy duty stainless steel - they cost more, but last a lifetime, and you can scrub them with a brillo pad without doing any damage.

Tea - try coating your grill with ordinary kitchen salt, letting it cool a bit, then rubbing down with an oil-soaked soft cloth. That should clean it off, and leave a good cooking surface for next time.

Re: None stick pans
 

Dead easy, you suddenly fall forward in a faint, and when you come round half your face is missing and the other half is proving that the pan is no longer none stick!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14/14_6_1.gif

Re: None stick pans
 

I use a pad, too....the problem is I'm usually eating what I 've just cooked on there while the hotplates are cooling off. And I've usually had a couple of jars. So I've got to let it go cold then come back and heat it up again later, by which time the greasy bits have congealed and are a bu**ar to get off.

Re: None stick pans
 

too much salt gives you heart problems pendy!tea is better off not washing it and let it build his anti-bodies up, or better still go around to your gaff and let you cook and wash up.....lol:p

Re: None stick pans
 

Whatever next!!! It seems that we can't eat, drink or ingest anything without there being some kind of health warning these days. Can anyone explain to me why even though I don't have a non-stick pan anyway, I still feel ill all of the time....:D

Tealeaf, forget the George grilling machine and get a takeaway, no more washing up..;)

Re: None stick pans
 

I use my none stick frying pan most mornings while making myself bacon butts before I go to work. I also like my bacon crispy, more flavour that way I reackon but I wouldn’t say that I have the heat turned up to much (Gas) although there has been the odd occasion (plenty) when I have filled the kitchen with smoke fumes.
I’ll tell you what thou, I do seem to have some sort of full time cold these days. Just maybe this could be the reason, or is it perhaps I’m just Allergic to work. hehe

Re: None stick pans
 

my missus frys my breakfast every morning and aint got a cold,lol

Re: None stick pans
 

WARNING

breathing air can cause cancer

picking your nose can cause brain hemerages

water will make your hair fall out


i think ive got the next 3 months or so health scares covered there :D

Re: None stick pans
 

Re: None stick pans
 

No one has pointed out that the Convicts have different season times to us, I think its winter down there now, could it be April 1st as well?

Re: None stick pans
 

Start grilling your bacon and see if your cold goes.
We will know the truth then.
It will be about as scientific as Brainiacs on Sky One.

Re: None stick pans
 

Re: None stick pans
 

All new-born babies should be issued with an indestructible card which reads:

Warning. Living is dangerous to your health. It is invariably fatal.

That's got that covered, then.

Re: None stick pans
 

Re: None stick pans
 

Len,



I work for a major plastic manufacturer in the R&D department. What's been mentioned is known in the trade a polymer fume fever. It usually affects you at least five hours after you’ve breathed in a sufficient dose of degraded polymer fume. Symptoms are a heavy flu like feeling and shaking like the proverbial sh*tt^£g dog! but they usually last for approx 10 Hrs. I would be surprised if your pan is giving off enough fumes for it to be a problem every time - you do need to be almost setting fire to the Teflon coating for heavy degradation. Your GP would be able to provide a blood test to look for traces of the degradation chemicals if its a major concern.

Re: None stick pans
 

Mr Smith, i have never heard as much nonsense in my life. I think you should stick to messing with your little bits of plastic and let the doctors get on with their medical matters. You don't phone a chef when your toilets leaking! REALLY!

Re: None stick pans
 

i do as i find their call out charges are more reasonable :D

Re: None stick pans
 

Your right special powers, perhaps if you’re a doctor you’d like to have a look at the relevance of this??

(If this is you Gem Bob – I knew it was!!!!) ;)


Some fume will be generated even at the temperatures
reached during the normal hot processing of fluoropolymers such as Teflon
and it is necessary to assume that the resulting fume
will present a potential health hazard. It is essential that
adequate ventilation is provided to prevent exposure in the
workplace. The consequence of overexposure
to the fumes from fluoropolymers decomposing
under these conditions is “Polymer Fume Fever” also
known as “The Shakes”.This is a temporary, influenza like
illness with fever, chills and sometimes a cough.
The illness is also associated with exposure to the decomposition
products produced by smoking tobacco products,
such as cigarettes, which have become contaminated by
fluoropolymer resins, even by trace quantities. It is essential
that smoking and tobacco products be banned in work
areas where fluoropolymer resins are handled.
The three main types of product formed in the decomposition
of fluoropolymers are fluoroalkenes, oxidation products
and low molecular weight fluoropolymer particulates.
In the case of PTFE there are many studies in the published
literature and these report a wide variety of results
for the reasons outlined above.The general pattern, however,
is that the monomer, tetrafluoroethylene, is the principal
gaseous product at the gel point of the polymer
(330°C).As the temperature increases to around 450°C, in
the presence of air, carbonyl fluoride and hydrogen fluoride
become the main products. Also some carbon
monoxide may be formed. Carbonyl fluoride hydrolyses
rapidly in the presence of moist air to hydrogen fluoride
and carbon dioxide. Small amounts of hexafluoropropylene
may also be found at these temperatures.The highly
toxic perfluoroisobutylene has been detected as a minor
product at temperatures above 475°C.When the temperature
reaches about 800°C tetrafluoromethane begins to
form.
There is a similar decomposition pattern for other fluoropolymers.
Decomposition products tend to form at
lower temperatures to a degree which depends on the type
and amount of comonomer in the fluoropolymer. Health
hazards of these products are as follows:
Hydrogen fluoride:The odour threshold of hydrogen fluoride
is significantly less than the occupational exposure
limits which are typically of the order of 1ppm. Inhalation
of hydrogen fluoride at higher concentration will give rise
to symptoms of choking, coughing and severe eye, nose
and throat irritation. In severe cases, and possibly following
a symptomless period, fever, chills, difficulty in breathing,
cyanosis, and pulmonary oedema may develop which may
lead to death. Acute overexposure to hydrogen fluoride
can result in injury to the liver and kidneys.
Carbonyl fluoride: Effects following inhalation, ingestion,
or skin or eye contact with carbonyl fluoride may initially
include: skin irritation with discomfort or rash; eye
corrosion with corneal or conjunctival ulceration; irritation of the upper respiratory passages; or temporary lung
irritation effects with cough, discomfort, difficulty in
breathing, or shortness of breath. Respiratory symptoms
may be delayed for several hours.
Carbon monoxide: An odourless gas which reduces the
oxygen carrying capacity of the blood, resulting in a
decreased capacity for exertion, increased load on the heart
and with severe exposure, unconsciousness and death.
PFIB (perfluoroisobutylene): PFIB is highly toxic by acute
inhalation, and exposure to concentrations above 1ppm
for any significant period can be fatal.
TFE (tetrafluoroethylene): Tetrafluoroethylene is a colourless,
odourless and flammable gas that is very poorly
soluble in water. Tetrafluoroethylene has a very low
toxicity after acute exposure and has no cardiac sensitisation
potential and it has no genotoxic potential in vitro
and in vivo.When administered for a long period, it may
cause toxic effect primarily to the kidney. In a 2-year bioassay
in rats and mice, tetrafluoroethylene caused various
kinds of tumours in the kidney, liver and the haematopoietic
system.These effects were seen at high dosages. Studies
comparing human and animals metabolism suggested that
the risk to human to developing some of the tumours is
low for humans.The current TLV/TWA value is 2 ppm
(ACGIH 2001). Further studies to understand the whole
mechanism are still under evaluation. A multicentre epidemiology
study involving the major producers of TFE is
ongoing.
HFP (hexafluoropropylene): Hexafluoropropylene is a
colourless, odourless gas that is very poorly soluble in
water. Hexafluoropropylene has a low toxicity after acute
exposure. The genotoxicity of the compound was considered
overall negative.When administered for a long period
it may cause toxic effects primarily to the kidney. No
official TLV/TWA has been established by ACGIH. The
producers have set a provisional internal OEL value of
0,5 ppm.

Re: None stick pans
 

Get Lost Gem Bob!!

Re: None stick pans
 

I've had my non-stick pan for almost 22years, so i suppose all the chemicals have been destroyed by, besides which for quite a number of years now i only use it to fry eggs. By the way it is still non-stick.

Re: None stick pans
 

All that chemical info has now put me off non stick pans. I get enough chemicals up hear without having to use non stick pans!

Re: None stick pans
 

If this is the case then why dont the flys pop off instantly in the kitchen when my pan is used if such a dose is needed for humans then why in summer do we still get plenty of bloody flies?

Re: None stick pans
 

Maybe they just want to kill us off and not the flies. Its a conspiricy by aliens. :D