Is it any wonder children swear?
 

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

another example to me of society gone mad, i would do my nut if it involved my kids,glad there grown up !

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I agree. It's not just literature, the language on television after 9:30 p.m. is appalling. So often the expletives have no place whatever in the context of the programme and seem to be included for nothing more than shock value.

Habitual swearing shows nothing more than that the user has a poor vocabulary. If that's what constitutes educational reading material then our education system is deteriorating.

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yet if a film has swearing in it they rate it a 15

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Having to do DH LAwrence at school for english was bad enough:o

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Having to do anything at school was bad enough...! :D

Agree about the swearing though

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About 14yrs ago thereabouts, it was our english teachers fault sure he was a literary perve or something or just wanted to make the girls blush:o We even studied Cider with Rosie which the film was on the other week.

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Maybe Kipax was right about that school :D. Why not make an appointment with the head teacher and/or school governers and ask why your daughter is being asked to swear in the name of education. Or possible Lancashire Education Authority.

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Wonder what would happen to the kids when they got back and started talking to the teachers like that.

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Teachers hands are tied so kids proberly get away with swearing, but to use English course work that has swearing in dosnt set a good example. How long will it be before the school produces a play that sounds like a swearathon?

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I did DH Lawrence's Sons and Lovers, at school, found it boring. Spent half the time trying to find the rude bits and completely missing them by not understanding the allegory of the poppies.

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I have to agree with you Willow. They have too much swearing inflicted on them in real life without having to read it as well. I presume their only logic is that the kids that they're teaching it to probably know far worse than anything in Educating Rita anyway.

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:eek: OOOhhhhh lol! We used to get in so much trouble for giggling at the rude bits.

I think alot of the literature that is read in school, especially secondary schools, can be too graphic cosidering the age of these children.

I also remember reading Of Mice and Men which was an excellent story but it also had it's dodgey bits in :o

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Ahh the joys of having Steinbeck forst down our throats. Kids could learn something from that. What will be the next step in there reading James Joyce's Dubliners? :D

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agree with neil-chavs point is also a good starting point, i would do what neil says and failing that i would try the local press.

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The headmaster would proberly say its educational for the kids to read this kind of modern writing and LCC would side with him. Abroad education is a national requirement is the likely answer from LCC and all schools are proberly doing the same. Yes it is wrong but how can you change the minds of a bunch of narrow minded people who see puplic opinion as an something to brush aside.

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You should have a complaints procedure first u approach the teacher or the head teacher and if you dont get anywhere with that then you approach the board of governors and if that isnt done right then you approach your local education authority ie lancashire county council at preston. I know this cos i am a governor in a primary school.

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The question is "would they listen"?

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I was talking to a neighbour recently about the growth of swearing in very young children - even 5 year olds are using the 'F' word.......I said I would use soap and water to wash out the mouth of the offender......he said he thought it was funny if the word was said in context. Now, that I find very worrying.

I do not think this play is suitable for 14 year olds and I applaud your daughter for not using the 'F' word. It is almost as if the school is condoning bad language. Approach the school governors and see what you can get from that.

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I think you should be proud of your daugther for making a public stand because of her principles.

I do find the whole issue difficult. When do you make the transistion from what is suitable for children to that of adults? I adored D.H. Lawrence, and Cider With Rosie by Laurie Lee, reading them at school led me onto reading everything both authors had ever written.

I think parents should have some say over the content of the national curriculum, but where that ends is hard. I read recently of a Muslim parent who objected to the displaying of drawings by Michelangelo in the art room, because it offended his son's beliefs about nudity and the Muslim belief that no living thing should be depicted in a visual way.

Educating Rita may be offensive to some because of the realism of the language, but ultimately it shows how education can be the way forward for people trapped in very mundane lives. I found it funny, inspirational and worthy of it's Oscar nomination.

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I have just asked my 14 year old daughter.
In English she is writing an essay on "Saving Private Ryan" a classified (15) film that they let a class of 14 year olds watch. She says that "Educating Rita" is next.

I am not too happy.

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What is happening with the education system? Age certificates on films are there for a reason so how can schools ignore them? What next year eleven pupils watching cert 18 films "FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES"? this is getting out of hand.

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I like the story of Educating Rita but dont think its suitable for 14 year olds, I'm sure they already know the language but its like the school condones it, I would take the advice of the other members on here.

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I fully support parent's rights to stop there children from coming into contact with swearing, even in the content of literature in an informed environment. What about Shakespeare though, in context there's some very fruity Elizabethan language, and as for the topics touched upon, underage relationships, homosexuality, murder, as well as some rather unnatural feelings towards a mother.

I'd much rather more effort was being placed on stopping the use of swearing outside the classroom, than what I hope is a reasoned discussion about it, in it.

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At school I did 'A Taste of Honey' I loved the play and the film adaptation was great, there was swearing in it and I was around 13/14 at the time, we thought it was odd swearing in class in front of the teacher, but looking back it was just part of the play and I personally found it very useful (the actual play not the swearing that is!) I do feel that it would not have been realistic without the swearing in, its true life and whether we like it or not they will swear. Am not sure the school doing a play with swearing in is actually condoning it, its just part of the syllabus. Do your children listen to Eminem or other RAP bands because that, I feel is far worse.

At the same age I also remember doing Arthurs Millers play, 'The Crucible' about Salem and witchcraft, that had swearing in it and things of a sexual nature. There is also some iffy classical plays, would you honestly have been cross if your daughter was doing a classical play with sex and debauchery in?

But like Rindy said........I 'd be proud if my child, like your daughter upheld her views and values.........

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A Taste of Honey, one of my all time favourite books, and a classic film. Serious issues about growing up in working class Manchester set against the start of the swinging sixties. A modern day, at the time, morality play.

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Dora Brien in the film just creased me up ....she soooooooo cringeworthy!!!

I knew you'd like that play....i just knew!! how odd?

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Is there anything that kids could study that has no "inapropriate content"? If so why are schools ingnoring it?

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If this is the education authorities idea of a sutible curriculem no wonder school leavers cannot read write or do maths properly. Somebody somewere has a warped sense of humour or dosnt give a monkeys. How much of this problem is due to "targets have to be met" syndrome?

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Right I might get pounced on here, but, who decided these words were swear words.
Who was the first person to say f''''off , and get done for swearing.
Who decided that 'please' was not going to be a swear word. What i am saying is, these are words, everyday we talk 1000's and 1000's of different words. Who depicts the swear words, and how the hell did we find out they were swear words and not something simple like 'please or thankyou'.

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Mark Twain was considered racey when I was at school. Oh how times do change.

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good point slinky.....makes you think doesn't it?

so insted of say byeeeeeeee i could say %^$%*^ &*%$% &%& for now!!!

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Exactly romps, and if no-one thought of it as a swear word, then I would simple say " £^&*(&%^$££"!%^&*())__*)(*^&%^$" back to you, and that would be that.

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Would it be OK if I said %"&^ and *$%& or is that going to far again? :o

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No because some do gooder said " aww dear you cant say that, it's swearing", but who said it's swearing?? that's the point. Who said PLEASE aint a swear word but P''2 is??

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i swear i heard you swear,,,,,you naughty girls...

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It is quite spooky how much we have in common. Dora Brien as Rita Tushingham's blousey Mum is one of my all time favourite cinema portrayls. I do a great line from the film of her in character, which is too rude to post here, and it works better with a slap.;)

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show me at the next meet then, can't wait!

U know it took me ages to place Rita Tushingham when she turned up in 'Bread'!

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I did Cider with Rosie at school, and found it one of the most boring books I ever had the misfortune to read.

I got bored before the end of the first chapter, the second chapter was even harder going, and I gave up before the 3rd chapter.

As for Eminem, Nelly, etc, I enjoy their music, but I would never play it in front of the kids (until they are older, anyway), and other media like 18-rated computer games (Grand Theft Auto) are off-limits as well, but there are loads of sites where 13 year-olds are swapping tips and hints on how to complete various missions.

Personally, I blame the parents...

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Personally, I blame the teachers.



I was fortunate enough to have had a wonderful English master, one who explained the content of the book in context, which led me to read the next of his biographies about leaving Slad and going to fight in the Spanish Civil war.

I know we all have differing literary likes. You mentioned in another thread you read a red top newspaper, something which would bore me by........ page three.;)

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A genuine question? Is it not possible to ask what books a child will be reading at the begining of the year? Since most of the national curriculum is set country wide, this should be possible, if it isn't it is wrong. Parents and gaurdians should have a right to know, partly so they could read the books to help the child, as well as to object if they so wish.

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Kids will swear whatever their upbringing it's part of the growing process. More important is where and when they swear. I remember writing a poem at school with a friend called Frank. The poem contained all the swear words we knew at that time. I still remember it to this day but it did not contain some of the really serious swearing of today.

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Dear Head,
I would like you to excuse Johnnie from religous education lessons. As a committed vegan family, we wouldn't be happy for him to read the Christian bible, which features the miraculous eating of fishes as well as the more acceptable loaves.

Your's etc.

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Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

I also liked "A Taste of Honey", good song too. There were a few films out from the late fifties to the mid sixties which were known as kitchen sink dramas. This was one of them. I think the one that started it all off was "Room at the Top" with the wonderful Lawrence Harvey and Heather Sears. My own favourite was "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning" with the unbeatable Albert Finney and Rachel Roberts. There was also one with Rugby as the main theme, I think Richard Harris might have starred in that one but I can't think of the name of the film at the moment. Ah, just remembered it, "This Sporting Life"

They don't make 'em like that any more!

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No Willow, I certainly don't think you are a fuddy duddy, it's been a very interesting thread, and like I said you should be so proud of your daughter for having the courage of her convictions, which at her age, amongst her peers is remarkable.

I don't think pre reading the booksd to be studied would influence their enjoyment of it, just keep parents informed of what they are studying. Wasn't Educating Rita studied as part of the national curriculum?

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Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

Hee hee, it had only just been written when we were at school.


I do find it interesting about how what was once contemporary and cutting edge at the time, suddenly becomes a 'classic'. Like people have said Shakespeare if taught properly should explain that it was written with a raucous live audience in mind, and all the filthy jokes should be seen in context and explained.

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i am with willow...morals dont mean anything anymore,,, if you want to bring up your kids without the swearing and carryings on,then you are the one thats being a prude,,,,,
i wouldent like to go back to the victorian age, but i think were too lax now.

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willow thats NOT being a fuddy duddy its called bringing your kids up decent.

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Even in the historical plays there are rude jokes that the live audiences of the time would have wet their breeches at.

As for Victorian values...........on the surface the model of a decent moral society, underneath, out of a then population in London of five million people there was about 25,000 children working in prostitution, total hypocrisy.

I think parents should have an input into what their children are taught at school, and I applaud both Willow and her daughter's stand. I do however fear that it might result in the censoring of anything that might be deemed unsuitable not being taught at all.

Educating Rita is the story of a working class Liverpudlian mother who found a new life through the studying of literature at university. Her language reflected her background, and could be talked about in context with a good teacher.

Talking of swearing, it's another bug bear of mine that when bad language is reported in the press as a quote, it is always asterixed. We all know the words alluded to, and it just seems stupid because our brains read it as a swear word anyway. F***ing daft.

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ermm yes i supose you have a point there ..

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Willow......I must be a fuddy duddy too......I find swearing offensive, and by swearing I mean the F word and others with sexual connotations........if that makes me a prude then so be it......it is because we have accepted these profanities in our daily life that young people feel they are OK to use. My daughter bought me the James Blunt CD and he sings a song called 'Beautiful'....... and yes, it is a beautiful song marred by the 'F' word........I don't even like to play it because of that......you may think that that is taking things too far, but that is just me!

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I agree many a lovely song as ruined by the use of swear words years ago the original version of John Lennon's Woman used swear words and I would not allow it in my house even though I loved the Beatles. Guess that puts me with you Willow we are all becoming Fuddy Duddies.

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no fireman when your over 50 youre an OFFICAL OLD FART. :D :D :D

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Whats that smell around here ?

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Oh hello Cashy reading your replies you must be well used to being an old fart eh. !!! on a serious note their is never , ever a need to use bad language in songs Think of beutiful south and the words Take me tonight had much more meaning than the original F--K me tonight.

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I don't remember that - I sometimes notice the headlines while I am waiting in a queue in Smiths, but I don't tend to read any newspapers.

The paper I assume you refer to doesn't have any news in it anyway.

The only regular publication I read is F1 Racing - the logo for that is red!

That would probably bore a lot of people here silly as well...

And when I said that I blame the parents, that was related to the kids swearing, not the National Curriculum. That's down to the Government, who I didn't vote for.

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How about Eminem? His work has a lot of meaning, and I don't think the swearing in that detracts from his songs. People may not like Rap, but some of his stuff is worth a listen, imo (but not for kids!)

Apologies for the double post

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You obviously understand a great deal more than I do. Although we studied Shakespeare at school no rude jokes were explained to us and I have never been aware of them.



Well, at one time it wouldn't have been taught. It would have been censored. I sort of naively think that when a film is censored as unsuitable for viewing in a cinema by children under a certain age then that should also apply to viewing in a classroom.

Things have obviously changed a lot in schools because such words would not have been discussed by teachers and pupils when I were a lass.


WE may all know the words but I like to think that by using asterisks the idea is that those who know the words know what is being quoted and those who don't know the words are not being taught them by reading a newspaper.

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Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

It wasn't just because I had a very good English master at school, it's widely known that Shakespeare wrote a lot of jokes into his plays that the earthy, sometimes illiterate rabble, would easily have got, but with the passgage of time we easily miss them because language evolves.

I personally hate swearing, especially by young people who use the f-word, usually many times in the same sentence, thus demeaning it's significance. I'd much rather see less swearing in the playground, which every child will encounter, a fact that may be aided by the reasoned discussion about how offensive language can be, even if it was discussed in the context of an English lesson.

I never in my life heard my father swear, even if he hit his thumb with a hammer he would say, for some reason, 'blood and sand'. An utterance so unusual, it was always as shocking to us as the use of a sexual profanity. All language is relative, and needs to be viewed in context.

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was the f word not what ladies of the night were charged in the middle ages ie for using carnal knowledge? If it was and the f word is now so common it has come a long way since then.

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I don't care to listen to Eminem......and if he has a message, and can articulate it without the use of profanity then maybe, just maybe I would be prepared to listen.

Eminem is one of the artist who our young people like to emulate......and they think that what he says is OK for them to say too......well, I don't think it is. No more than seeing top football players mouthing bad language......it all seems to make this language acceptable to our young people. Kids pick up words like pigeons pick up peas......they can't help it. It is a parents (or adults ) job to make sure that children are made to see that there is hardly ever an excuse for bad language. And just because words exist doesn't mean that they have to be used.

Willow......good luck in your quest to protect your daughter from unsuitable reading matter.

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I would like to echo an earlier question, who decides what is offensive?

Everyone seems to be agreed that F**K, as swear words go, is pretty offensive. But no one has convincingly explained to me why this might be the case.

What is so offensive about common body parts or bodily functions or everyday actions or occupations?

Shakespeare, as has already been observed, contains a wealth of morally dodgy symbolism, much of which is now inaccessable to a modern audience. Shakespeare was adept at incorporating the profanities of the day and playing on them to satirise or to amuse or to shock. So did Chaucer who was, if anything, a good deal more earthy but, who was nevertheless once part of the National Curriculum.

Should we now shield our children from these two canons of the English Language on the grounds that they might hear something that was held to be offensive centuries ago?

Of course, nobody enjoys listening to speech in which every word is punctuated by the inclusion of the word F**K. It demonstrates laziness and lack of consideration for the listener and, more importantly, it becomes meaningless.

Expletives are the spice of language and, like all spices, they are used to best effect when used sparingly. I would never criticize a child for swearing, only swearing inappropriately!

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im sorry but theres no place for a child in this world then if your going to bring up a child without swearing.
they are only going to learn it off the streets and from their friends.

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they wont like it , i dont like it but i can bet you bottom dollar that somtime they will use it! i hate swearing but ive done it occasionaly as it just comes out i then realise what i do and then i do actually apologise out loud even if i am on my own.

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How can you say that, I have seen you play the "what swear words can you get away with in chat" game :D

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if a woman or young girl was to be called a silly moo these days she would take it offensively as obviously it relates to being called a cow. i would rather be sworn at than called a cow.
same with the word bitch, who likes being called a dog? but yet its classed as a swear word so when a young child is learnig the word bitch people will automatically think first? is my child swearing?? or would they then realise that they were learning a new meaning for a lady dog??
or ba****d this word is in alot of films that is only realting to a child without a father??

Tw**t- a female fish??
where do we draw the line at what is swearing and what is not?? :confused:

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There's a censor built into the chat facility, and I don't swear anyway, especially infront of people I don't know, or know people's ages.

I do push the innuendo in threads, but I also censor myself.:)

Interesting note, just returned from the theatre to see a play in Bolton. What did all the middle class, middle aged theatre goers titter at most? Yes the swearing. The school parties didn't .

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The original word when "Till Death Us Do Part" was written was meant to be "cow" but it was deemed to be too offensive to use on television so was changed to "moo".

Now you're talking about words and the context in which they are used. If we are talking about animals then a female dog is a bitch and there's no problem with that any more than there is a problem with the animal we get milk from being called a cow. The problem arises when people are insulted by being called such names. Other animal names have also been used to insult people, "pig" for example, or even "toad". It's the fact that the words are chosen and intentionally meant as insults which makes them offensive to the recipient.

The word used to describe an illegitimate child (the child does have a father, he's just not married to the mother) still sounds harsh when used in the correct context. This is probably because when someone has been referred to as the "b******d son of so and so" rather than the "illegitimate son of so and so" it has often been said that way in order to sound harsh and critical.

There is a sea bird which is called a shag. I believe it is rather like a cormorant. I vaguely remember the fish from a quiz I did a few years ago. I thought it was a young fish but can't remember the species.

You could also argue the point about words such as "bloody" which when referring to something covered in blood are nothing more than descriptive adjectives. An example being the "bloody baron" ghost in Harry Potter.

That reminds me of something my youngest daughter once said to me. She'd been quite horrified at something a friend of hers had said and I asked her what it was. She didn't want to repeat the words even though they were nowhere near as bad as the words her sister is now expected to speak in class at school but she also wanted me to understand what it was so she got round it by saying. "You know what the baron is in Harry Potter? Well it was that and the place you end up if you don't go to Heaven." She was about 7 at the time I think.

You may find it quite normal if you are angry with someone to tell them to "f" off but my kids would say "get lost!" with just as much emphasis. I've never used the word in my life and believe me there have been times when I've been angry/frustrated/upset/annoyed/exasperated. Maybe I'm in a minority but if so then I find that rather sad. MY father once told someone to "p" off when he was very angry and my mother was mortified. He'd never sworn before and even used to criticise her for say "blast". I think that illustrates A-b's point. If he'd been used to swearing like a trooper thsoe two words wouldn't have had half the impact they did.

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We have reached the point of "when is a swear word actually a swear word"? If as some people have pointed out they do have a genuine meaning then what is the issue? To the point boo made about female cannines (used as d*g can be derogotory) There is a pub near my place of work called "The Black Bitch" so is that swearing. The pub sign shows a jet black female greyhound and is named as mentioned. A lot of words now have double meaning so wear do we draw a line?

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I think drawing the line when it comes to it is down to peoples own morals and what they feel comfortable saying and what company they are in at the time. I can have a joke around with my kids and say "Bog off" to them and its taken in the jokey way it is meant. But I once said it to them in front of my mum and got into trouble, bearing in mind I am 34 and still completely respect what my mum has to say I am unable to ever say it again.

To a certain extent I only can cope with profanities when they are used in a sparingly stressed out or angry way. What I really hate is when it is used in everyday language as normal speech, that REALLY gets my goat. I also find it horrendous when hearing it come out of the mouths of babes!!!!

I picked someone up at work for swearing unnecessarily and she actually admitted that she hated to hear kids swear. So I told her what does she expect if she is happy to swear in everyday life and that maybe in some small part she may have contributed to a child learning a swear word! Funnily enough couple of weeks later she said she had done the same thing when she overheard someone else swear......

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Is it possible for the kids today to know in which context a word is swearing and when it is not given that there English is poor? I freely admit my English is far from perfect but I still kmow the difference. I agree with what is being said but think its a case of going round in circles.

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My 8 year old son once called his little brother a PILLOCK, when i pulled him up about it he said, " but mum it's a pregnant fish"......................... that's knowledge for ya!!! lol.:rolleyes:

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Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

When employers start worying about the education given to school leavers then in the 3 R's then there has to be someting there to worry them. These people are the future labour force and tax payers and if the education they have is not to the standard then they will end up with low paid or no job at all. There is to much interferance in education esspecially from polititions. I am not saying all are bad at the 3 R's but considering the kind of jobs around they need good basic education so do plays that have swearing in them show a good example?

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I would argue that they demonstrate the word used in context, in a manner that is likley to stimulate questions and discussion, this can only be good, surely?

Additionally, are we going to deny our children the chance to experience modern drama because of the inclusion of a handful of words which makes some of us feel a little uncomfortable?

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It's all about context with a bit of fashion thrown in.

Literature has always been full of fashionable swear words - Shakespeare used words that were risque at the time and probably fell foul of the moral police more than once because of it.

The real problem is that fashion pushes boundaries and by pushing the boundaries in one way we let a whole host of other things in. For instance, the first time f**k was used on TV was on The Tube and there was outrage, it made all the national papers at the time. Now, you can hear it everynight after 9pm whatever channel you're watching. That was a boundary that was pushed back and is now 'acceptable' which means that people are busily working on pushing the next boundary and the next. We could never go back to a point where f**k was as offensive as it used to be.

Having said all that, I think that children should be as protected as possible from all swear words. I'm particularly careful about what I say in front of the kids. I do, very rarely, swear myself but never in front of the children (or my parents for that matter!).

Which brings me back round to the argument that it all depends what the context is and for me, the context means it is only really truly offensive when said around children. So, whilst I would find Educating Rita acceptable to read or watch I wouldn't be happy allowing my children to watch it until they were considerably older.

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I still find the 'F' word offensive and will not happily watch any programme that contains bad language........often when something contains bad language I will say the phrase without the bad language and to me, usually, the impact isn't lessened by the removal of the offending word. The 'F' word has only become acceptable because we haven't checked the people using it.......and yes, I know that kids will hear it where ever they are, but that doesn't mean we should condone it.

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

Actually the first time the word was aired on British television was by the theatre critic Kenneth Tynnan in 1969, in a live interview on the BBC. It was also heard many times in the 1976 interview that the Sex Pistols gave to Bill Grundy on Granada.

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

Fuddy Duddies and Oldies Unite......Ban bad language!

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

At the age of 7 when visiting a friend of mine on Selby Close in Baxenden one of my kids came out with: have i read this wrong? if not you sure started young willow lollll :D

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

i think i am one of the few people who has not seen the film four weddings and a funeral
after the first five minuets i left the room in disgust.....and i am not a prude

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

That's fair enough, but if my mother decided to stick her oar in I'd have told her to 'bog off' (or something less polite) as well!

It's all down to relationships, I guess

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

I would still get a clip around the lug for my troubles
:(

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

My daughter who learnt hard way of dirty mouth & fairy has another use LOL she picked up a new word from a kids tv prog which is a polite substitute for frustration cos thats all swearing is really other than habit she says oh frizzeles which is fine my word when i was younger n still do is piggin or friggin heck hummmmmm think its got a lot to do with censorship tv had to cover up swear words they used to do altho hmmm lip reading gives a lot away especially at footy matches on tv lol!!!!!!

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

see how easy i get confused? its me age lol :D

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

If I am particularly frustrated with something my word of choice is 'futtocks'.....it doesn't mean anything and it is unlikely to cause offence to anyone in earshot.

Re: Is it any wonder children swear?
 

I am a guilty parent as I just let rip I have never used an alternitive nonsensical word. Its a bad day when your kid pulls you up for foul language. Shows she knows better though.