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I debated long and hard with myself about whether I should post this or not but I decided that, in the interests of openness, you should see it.

There is a new updated version of the Panopticon website online. Don't worry, there's nothing much about Hyndburn because there's still nothing much to say, but I thought you might be interested in the over all picture.

www.panopticons.uk.net

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I am going to have a swatch through it. Why the dilema of wether to post it?

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When it comes to the Panopticons I'm in a lose/lose situation - if I tell everyone about progres, I get hastle because people don't like it but if I don't tell everyone about progress I get hastle because I'm keeping secrets.

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i think you take it all in your stride gayle

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The link didn't take me anywhere. :(

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www.panopticons.uk.net

Ooops, try this

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One wonders what part of "No" the Steering Group have difficulty with. Considering all that has been said and written concerning the two designs put forward by Peter Beard, one also wonders why the Steering Group are so adamant in retaining his services. Clearly our views on his suitability for the project carry very little weight. So much for inclusiveness. I am still of the opinion that the whole thing should be thrown open to public consultation and that a new competition for submissions should be declared.

Though on the positive side, it is heartening to read that the Steering Group appear to be giving up on the idea of desecrating the Coppice.

Incidentally, Gayle, are the minutes of the meetings of the Steering Group open to public inspection? And if they are, where might one obtain copies? But If they are not, why not?

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who decided on that hideous space ship?? what a mess that will look stuck on the hill.

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I am, I'm thankfull it's going on your coppice and not our coppice lol

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It looks like our friends in the Ribble Valley are also against their skyline being spoilt - lets hope they stand firm.

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where's that, Ive heard of it but dunno where exactly.

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We could always visit and rub it in with the locals about our "generous donation" to their community. :D

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ime a bit reluctant to complain about the Panopticon project because unless somone else posts the word Panopticon so that i can copy and paste it i have no idea how to spell it lol

it makes me wonder if the name Panopticon was deliberatly used as people have a hell of a time spelling it so cant complain about it lol

ps:

we wont give you a hard time gayle we know your on a diet and we dont want to drive you to comfort eating and sitting down with a big tub of hargendas icecream

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Carry on Gayle you fight that Britcliffe about the panopticon, Hyndburn needs things like the saucers and I know you are well in favour, keep up the good work

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would argue a-b that the coppice was desecrated many years ago= when they planted those trees, i must be mellowing though gayle don't think the rossendale panopticans that gross!(and i ain't been drinking)lol happy new year.:)

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Maybe I should have written "...desecrating the Coppice any further"

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The new website is a vast improvement Gayle. It also gives Hyndburn Council's site a run for its money. That site has been 'in development' for years now!

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Yes, the Freedom of Information Act ensures that all documents are available to the public. All you have to do is contact Hyndburn Borough Council's Freedom of Information Officer and they will furnish you with them. You have to go through HBC as they are the lead partner in this.

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They are too busy doing "other things" other than the site.

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Thanks Gaylee for the link. I have seen a lot of references to a panopticon on these pages but never really understood what anyone was talking about. Perhaps you would all like a bit of a laugh with this picture of a sculpture. It has been placed on the footpath of the main st. in my local town of Childers after an extensive street beautifying scheme. Not exactly a Panopticon but an item that cost the local council AUS$58.000. If anyone can tell me what it is supposed to represent I will give you half of my ackers.

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Thats an easy one, Terry. It is abo art & it represents a person riding a roo.

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:D :D Actually no Tealeaf. I first heard what it was supposed to be before I saw it in an article in the local paper. I never thought of anything Abo or animal, but I like the guess. When I first saw it my reaction was" you've gotta be joking":rolleyes: I personally would have never guessed.

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I never did rate that aboriginal art, Terry.

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Hi Willow. Most of the locals have described it as 'the local mayor doing a big dump'However I'll let you know what it is because I have diverged from the main thrust of this post and I must apologise to Gayle for that. It's supposed to represent a volcano?????:confused: :D

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How exactly are these icons going to do that? I don't get it, how are they imroving and how are they regenerating

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Did anyone notice that on the BBC local news last night a small story about Burnley's Panopticon Sculpture, Singing Ringing Tree or whatever it is called? You know the one, the thing made out of a pile of scaffolding poles. Apparently, the perpetrators are now asking for a further seven grand before they can complete it. Inflation is a terrible thing. I fully expect that by the time the steering group get around to deciding which part of Accrington they are going to let Peter Beard desecrate there won't be enough left in the pot to afford so much as a shovel!

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I didn't know it was made from scaffolding poles.I'll give it a life span of no more than 3 weeks before the ****** - oops, "travellers" - nick it for scrap.

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The 1960's, Eastern European, children's classic television programme 'The Singing Ringing Tree', featured an evil little dwarf.

Will he be made out of scaffolding too?

If not, where can I send off an application for someone who would be perfect for the part?

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It wull probably have a little dwarf or garden gnome hanging from the scaffolding...or maybe a dozen hanging dwarfs.

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Actually, it's SEVENTY thousand that we're applying for (not a bean coming out of council taxes, by the way). Don't ask me which bodies we're applying to because at this exact minute I can't remember). We could make it on the funding that Burnley was initially given but because the Burnley steering group and the good people of Burnley seem to like the sculpture so much they want us to make it bigger!

And yes, at this rate Hyndburn could very well miss out on any of the funding. Plus any of the subsequent funding that it could attract.

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What Funding Gayle? 70 grand for what? Accrington looks like a kid walking round the neighbourhood with its arse hanging out of its trousers and you what to spend all that money on something that will bring nothing to the town.

I would also argue no matter how you twist it, this is still public money that’s being spent and it doesn’t end there what about maintenance cost’s over the years as well as the cost making the thing accessible to everyone who might want to see it. Not to mention the cost of consultation fees over time.

I understand this money is already allocated to the arts, etc. But surly we should be thinking of other things in Hyndburn than this.

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We're not talking about Accrington here we're talking about an extra £70k for Burnley.

It's almost irrelevant anyway because from what I understand Hyndburn's whole arts programme is going down the drain anyway. The Council, along with serving redundancy notices to the Community Wardens, are also letting the whole Arts Development team go at the end of March. HBC has also cancelled its subscription to Mid Pennine Arts so MPA are really cutting back on all the arts educational stuff in Hyndburn. So that means - no festivals, no education arts, no creative arts projects, no youth projects and by the looks of it no public art.

You might not like the Panopticon and despite all that I've tried to tell you about the benefits it might bring, it is fast becoming immaterial as the whole of Hyndburn is becoming a big black hole where creativity is stifled and discouraged. I firmly believe that an area is judged from the outside (and from within) on its culture and arts, or in Hyndburn's case quite clearly its lack of it. I know that I will not convince some of you that the sculpture was a good thing for the town but surely you can see that the total lack of arts in the town is a bad thing.

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I don’t disagree with either of you in respect of the alleged withdrawal of funding for Arts and Culture in Hyndburn. But correct me if I’m wrong Gayle in that not all funding comes from Mid Pennine and many interest parties will be able to continue to apply for funding from other sources.

On the subject of a Panopticon. I don’t believe that having an object stuck on the coppice is essential to attract funding into Hyndburn.

HBC have also shown a distinct disinterest in the history and heritage of the town and what it represents to us all. If one of these Panopticon’s had been built in Hyndburn there’s little doubt that it would have suffered from the same disinterest from council and that at some point removed.

Accrington doesn’t need props Gayle, it needs leadership and direction. This is not a personal attack, it’s an opinion. We need to be investing in people and in providing services that promote creativity and individualism and above all else Pride.

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Oh, Seventy Thousand. I stand corrected. That is even worse! Where is this extra funding being spent Gayle? Who gets it? Whose pocket will it end up in?

I do agree however with your comments about an Arts Crisis in Hyndburn.

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No, but for every £1 that HBC paid for their subscription to MPA they got over £5 back. Yes, other people would be able to apply for funding but no one else would give that sort of return. Plus, if you get rid of the Arts team that are currently employed by HBC, who is going to be applying for that extra money. The Arts Council will see that there is a distinct lack of investment in the arts in the area and they will not keen to put money in if they can't see any signs of self help.


Possibly not, possibly yes - in Rossendale it attracted a further £300k for the wider regeneration work at Top o'slate. In Blackburn it's part of a £1m revamp of Corporation park.

Well, actually I haven't got an argument on this one under the present regime. They're too busy selling everything off and handing out redundancy notices that there won't be much to manage soon.

I never saw it as a prop - just a signal to the rest of the country that we are open to new ideas, new change.

Yep, totally, totally agree with you. I know it's not a personal attack and I have the same opinion. Why do you think I'm doing what I'm doing at the moment?

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Price of steel - v. expensive and getting more expensive by the minute
Builders
Scaffolding
Diggers needed on site
Building up the dry stone wall around it
Sorting out the paths to redirect them
Insurance
etc

A lot of local people will be earning money out of this to get the work done.

The artist's fee is fixed whether it's five foot high or thirty five foot high.

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So are we all voting for the Lib Dems or the BNP?

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If the youth projects go thats more kids on the streets with nothing to do, who could in theory turn into vandals/graffiti artists which in turn would cost HBC more money long term.
My 7 year old loves doing drama and isn't bad at it but at £66 for 12 hours of lessons it's way out of my budget. It's a crying shame that there isn't the money for kids projects to give them new experiences unless your rich

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Blimey, I didn't know we had any!

How many of them are there?

What on earth do they do, and how much do they cost us?

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There's four of them. One specifically does Festivals (Wizard of Ossy, 'arrods summer sizzler, etc), one specifically does youth stuff, projects including drama and dance etc. Others pick up other projects, do education projects and stuff etc.

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Ok, thanks. I think the fact that I didn't know of their existance speaks voumes about the arts in Hyndburn.

I've posted before how I thought the arts scene was much more lively and challenging, the last time I lived here back in the early eighties.

Does anyone know how much these four cost?

I thought the Wizard of Ossy project was put on by an individual, because he was in the press moaning that the Rotary Club weren't giving him any help?

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I have a bee in my bonnet now about the cost of HBC's four arts development officers.

I've searched and searched, and found scant information on any site as to salaries, or costs to us.

I am genuienly shocked to find we have four of them.

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The costs to you are insignificant, the cost to the greater public is marginal and the cost to business is significant.

What difference does it make if they’re going?

If you want to contribute to the local Arts scene would suggest an advisory position or that of a fund raiser, you have a wealth of experience in costume design and the like, loads for you to contribute rather than frustrate yourself over the cost of running the local council……:)

I’ve not heard anything about the moves on Pets Corner? Is this not a news worthy item? :)

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The cost to 'us' is significant, especially as in my opinion the arts are worse in Hyndburn than they were twenty years ago.

The fact that we have four salaried art development officers in Hyndburn is noteworthy.

The only information I could find relating to their work was concerned with once yealy festivals, and the hiring out of public halls. Though I'm sure they must do a lot more for their money, which I presume will be somewhere near seventy thousands pounds of our money. Perhaps someone can tell us of any dealings they've had with them?

Will such a resultant and vibrant arts scene in Hyndburn, perhaps we'll be up for European Town of Culture.

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Yes that's one of the links I found, though nothing about cost.

Clog festival super.

When was/is it, as I seemed to have missed that?:D

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We would undoubtedly win major international awards for whingeing, wining and associated belly aching. Not to mention inertia.

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I would love to know who is doing the above. As for me, I'm open minded and carry no ideological baggage. I am only interested in what works and what does not and thus is a waste of time and money. Personally, I stick to impartial, objective criticism and now't else. But who else can say the same?

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There are a few issues at hand here - we could use the analogy 'if a tree fell in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound?' The thing about the Arts Development team and their projects is that you Garinda possibly wouldn't come into contact with them, although you could if you wanted to but -

Are you a young teenager who is interested in acting at the new Hyndburn Youth Theatre that they are developing and trying to get built?
Are you someone who is interested in setting up your own business in an Arts related arena?
Do you need to help in filling in an Arts Council application form on knowledge about other start up grants and funds?
Are you someone who would like to learn how to DJ, play drums, dance, act etc and would benefit from professional guidance?

The answer is probably no. So the Arts development team probably wouldn't come on to your radar but that doesn't mean that they are not out there working with a great number of people who will miss them if they go.

One fault that the Arts Dev team have is that they are not particularly good at making front page news, in fact, like most artists and people working behind the scenes in the arts they shy away from taking centre stage. They don't publicise what they do they just get on and do it. This is a fault and if they had made more of a splash perhaps more people who weren't actually involved would take more notice. The fact is that people who are involved are very annoyed and upset that this is going.

They are working with communities that want to work with them. They are organising events, activities, and creative endeavours for a great number of people on a daily and weekly basis.

Another issue is that the council hasn't given the team time to bed in, most of them were only in posts that were funded for a year or 18 months. So they've just got started, they arranged a lot of events last year but now the rug is being pulled from under them before they get to build on the work they've done so far.

Finally, you are also possibly confusing the Arts Development role with the person who books acts for the local theatre. It is not Arts Development team who book professional acts to come to our town.

It is a great loss to the town and like I've said before, it's not going to matter very much who's managing the town after May because the current regime are selling so much of it off that there will be nothing left to manage.

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Fortunately, not me! I get passionate about things, I care about things and I don't want to turn into some cynical robot who attacks first and asks questions later. I love that it matters to me and I don't want to change because this world needs people who are passionate enough and incensed enough to make a difference. It's all very well to sit in your rooms typing into a computer that things are rubbish, things aren't going well but what are you actually doing to make things right?

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Thanks Gayle. This isn't a dig at you but.....

as someone with a keen interest in the arts, as a patron, here in Hyndburn until the early 80's, and then as someone who was involved with the arts scene in London and Glasgow, I am still suprised that we have four people employed by HBC working or promoting the arts in Hyndburn, when the vast majority of people, myself included, didn't even know of their existance.

Hardly reaching all the community is it? I think they should perhaps work on their publicity a little more.

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That is a fault that I've accepted they had. It's too late now though.

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In a democracy consructive criticism can be useful, no matter where it comes from.

I feel more than happy in my criticism of the state of the arts scene in Hyndburn compared with twenty odd years ago. Basically then it was varied and challenging, now it isn't.

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But I think you're confusing the Arts scene with things that are being put on for your entertainment (which I agree is dire) and projects that are working with different groups of the community at different times.

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No I'm not.

Twenty years ago the Haworth Art Gallery still was used for community exhibitions, under the curatorship of Norman Potts, but it also showed some challenging art as well. In even the kindest terms, the exhibits that are at all good, are few and far between to say the least.

Theatre.

Where are the professional touring companies that we had in Hyndburn twenty years ago? I saw some innovative and challenging dance and theatre productions.

Where's any new public art of any note, besides the much debated Pantopican?

There isn't any.

Other towns and cities have moved on and embraced art. Hyndburn hasn't. All aided I've found out today, by four salaried members of our Council.

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Arrrgghhhh I am in agreement with you on that point Gayle.

I just typed a big winge in but then thought better of it and deleted it so as not to upset the local people we need to help us ;)

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can't comment on the gallery - it's under funded and under promoted by the Council

this is where you are getting confused - the Arts Development team, as I have said quite a few times, are not responsible for booking touring professional theatre acts. That is a whole other department and I have agreed with you that we don't get the sort of high quality theatre that we should in this town but it's not the Arts Dev team's fault - that's not in their remit.

again, not the fault of the arts dev team. This is the Council squashing anything and everything that is proposed to them

can't argue with you on that, totally right.

So not true. The arts dev team have been working with young people, working with community groups, setting up a theatre, producing festivals and events. This is their job and they've been doing it very well. You are neither a young person or involved in the sort of stuff that they do. That's fine but you can't fault them for doing what they were employed to do and you're going to have to trust me on this but a lot of people WILL miss them.

This area is a big black hole where art is concerned, I haven't disagreed with you on that. We need to embrace arts and culture in order to kick start regeneration but under this council's current regime that is never going to happen.

You can not fault the arts dev team for things that are lacking that do not come under their remit. And if you remove them then you are doubly compounding the problem and there will be even less, if any, arts provision in this area.

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Thanks but I'm totally confused now.

So HBC employs four arts developments workers, but I wouldn't have heard of them because I'm not a youth? Doesn't make them more youth workers than arts workers?

Their 'remit' isn't to attract art to Hyndburn? Well it should be.

This is where it gets personal I'm afraid. Thinking back, all the touring productions I saw in Hyndburn twenty years ago were put on by Mid Pennine Arts. Are we now missing out because most things seem to be centred in Burnley?

The arts scene in Hynburn is sadly lacking. The people here aren't Philistines just because the majority of people weren't in favour of the proposed Pantopican. Nearly everyone who objected did so on aesthetic grounds, or because it would blight a much loved landmark. Most people were in favour of public art as long as it was good, ie: Gorman's figures at Formby, which we've both mentioned before as being good.

The arts developments people, whatever their 'remit' should perhaps be working alongside other council departments more.

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This is where inertia comes into it. To have these things you have to have public interest and that appears to be distinctly lacking. If the theatre going public showed demand you’d get companies showing equal interest.

Hyndburn had strong theatrical links throughout the 20th century and has you quite rightly say up to about 20 or 30 years ago. But things change, tastes change.

Public Art is on the increase, usually linked to redevelopment or regeneration projects, but again the public have got to want it and demonstrate an interest.

You’ve got to align yourself with interest groups and work with the council teams to achieve what you want. Not sitting at home demanding to know why your insignificant contribution is being spent on the very people you decrying.

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I totally disagree.

How can people go to see things at the theatre when they are not offered it? Especially when we have people employed on our behalf to do just that. People's tastes haven't changed that much in twenty years, sadly they just have to go further afield to see things of note, when it used to be on our doorstop, and yes it was well attended.


Public art is not on the increase in Hyndburn Doug. A bit of machinery set on a pavement, or a sad little mosaic by a skateboard ring is not art. Like I said other places of a similar size has managed to attract good art by renowned artists, and theatre of note. Hyndburn has not, and from the look of it the future looks even bleaker.

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Sly little digs that criticism is not allowed because of lack of involvement is totally uncalled for.

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Now I'm confused? Who what and when did I are anyone else made sly little digs......I thought we where Having a discussion...........

Forgive me if I have misled you. I meant to say that in general, Public Art is on the Increase, I didn’t intend to imply that it was on increase in Hyndburn which clearly it’s not. Perhaps through the lack of public demand.

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Public Theatre is subject to market forces like any other business. If the demand isn’t strong or present then it diminishes.

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No the demand is stil the same, whats on offer has diminished. People just have to travel further because Hyndburn hasn't kept pace, or decided money should be spent on other things.

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That's wrong. Twenty years ago the productions that came here were very well attended. Since that time the population has increased, unempolyment is down, and people have more leisure time.

Bolton has a wonderful arts and theatre scene. Their council invested and encouraged, and offers people what they want, and it's very well attended, Hyndburn Council has not.

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So the four Arts Development team should be working with them. Who else is employed by the Council in the arts in Hyndburn then? There's more than the mentioned four? God this is getting worse.

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...........................................

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You’re like a petulant child with measles…..

What amenities are available Hyndburn? Can you stage major productions? What you are seeing is a natural progression in which larger towns tend to hold on to their resources longer, therefore they are able to cater to public demand.

Again it purely and matter of have everything in place. You need the amenities, resources and demand. But I would support other people in that in this instance the Theatre is not necessarily the domain of local council.

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Not petulant Doug, just a little more enlightened on the subject than you apparently.

I've seen renowned touring productions at both the Town Hall in Accrington, as well as at Oswaldtwistle Civic Theatre. That was twenty years ago, and it was well attended.

This just isn't about theatre, for which myself, Lettie and Sparkologist have to travel to Manchester to see anything of quality, HBC are employing at least four workers in the arts, with our money, and I think they aren't doing enough whatever their remit is.

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Are you sure HBC are paying them. They may have been funded with a grant. Why don't you contact your Ward Councillor tomorrow and find out. Which ward are you in?

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What you playing at Neal? :)

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Yes Gayle, I know you've said that the four arts development strong team are doing their job wonderfully, and are probably wonderful people, but perhaps the Council would be better cutting back on their jobs and focusing on other unappreciated jewels like Howarth Art Gallery, or wider community art than we have at present.

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I changed my post to a PM thats all Doug

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Well we (HBC) did employ them until the end of the month Neil.

If only the Council could have balanced their books, we might have kept, and better utilised them.

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Welcome..........:)

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Please use the chatroom to natter to your friends.:)

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I can not even get in here because of all the Handbags on the floor....

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Your's is lovely Simon.

Pig skin really suits you.:)

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Are you implying we are drunk tarts dancing mate

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Not so sure anyone is drunk ???

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Boys, girlie chit-chat in chitty chatty room please.

Thread wandering heathens.

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Tit............

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With your charming Tourette's affliction, we could almost put you on a stage and call you a performance artist. If you were only more interesting to look at.:(

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Doug this is not the breast feeding thread :D

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That is very disheartening. Other Councils manage to provide esential services, without having to sell off it's assets and cut back on it's cultural spending.

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How exactly are these icons going to do that? I don't get it, how are they improving and how are they regenerating

Haven't seen an answer yet.


Gayle has fire in her belly, and will be good for the area, I agree totally with you gayle on all your points. I think rindy's point is also valid though. People see theatre arts as a follow on from the arts groups you talk of gayle, but the loss of those arts groups and the four jobs will surely mean the death of not only the arts groups projects but also any hope of theatre arts. Seems like your council has decided that arts is no longer important, strange really, because I always thought you took it quite serious up there.
I've never really seen any art in accrington itself though. Surely you must have something, statues, sculptures, what’s this mosaic all about?.

What you need to remember is that there is always more to things like this than meets the eye. I'm not sure about these panopticans, because they seem to be in the middle of nowhere and I can't see what benefit they are yet but any arts in the town has multiple benefits to you even if you don't participate or even watch.
Regeneration, more tourism, more shops, nice places, nicer views, less disrespectful kids, less vandalism, more civic pride.

You really need to start thinking tourism.

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I had a good fund raising idea the other day. It involved elected members of HBC, stocks and wet sponges :D

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No we haven't. Neighbouring Blackburn has had the foresight to include public art in it's regeneration programme.

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Will it wait until May?:p

Re: I almost daren't post this...
 

Even we have a sculpture, it's made from a tree trunk and has been carved in to a player and ball to represent our shrove tuesday football game. It's not in town though which is a shame but is on the top lock and at least people can see it.