Grand National
 

Here we are again at the time of the year where 3 or 4 dozen horses are “persuaded” to run several miles as fast as they can whilst negotiating jumps of varying height and width whilst carrying a human being on their backs. To encourage them to greater heights of effort the jockey will use a whip on the flanks. All in the name of sport and some people even consider it to be the sport of kings.

I’ll make my position quite clear on this issue. If man or woman wants to compete against another man or woman to see who can get from A to B the fastest they should do so on their own two legs and not on the back of some animal. This applies equally to dog racing although no human sits astride a dog. This position also applies to other equestrian events like the Burley Horse Trials and show jumping. I would even throw in Crufts and other dog/cat shows. It is all animal exploitation for the benefit of the human in the name of sport. Yes and circus animals too.

“But the horses love to run and jump” is one argument that is always trotted out. A horse is a flight animal and by that I mean a horse will prefer to run away from danger rather than confront it, although if driven into a corner a horse will turn on its attacker and defend itself to the best of its ability. Under normal circumstances a horse will have a sudden gallop around a field out of sheer exuberance but never for very long. So will a cow or a sheep or even a pig.

Horses are not born with the desire to carry someone on its back, they have to be trained to accept it but they have no opt out clause written into the horse’s constitution. For that matter they don’t have a constitution. They just have man exploiting the animal and driving it beyond endurance sometimes just so that the man can win some money, a cup or prestige. What’s in it for the horse? Hopefully a good stable and good feed but also training, training, training to make it run faster and further than other horses. Some life!!!

Re: Grand National
 

And your point is .....???

Re: Grand National
 

Yes! I forgot to put my point. It's my age you know.

It is that animals should not be used to determine the outcome of a contest between humans.

grand national
 

we are at the top of the food chain. everything else is below us.

lets ride it, work it, use it, then after all that EAT IT. thats life.:not_ripe:

Re: Grand National
 

dogs shouldnt be kept at home,or cats,or birds in cages, fences shouldnt be put around animals,people shouldnt fish for fish,we shouldnt kill animals,we should eat grass, what do you think these horses are bred for?:( what you are saying is you havent looked around yourself and put your brain in order,do you wear leather shoes :mad: have a leather jacket :eek: is your duvet not duck and down :confused: what do you eat for your meals?:confused:



people should just give there brain a little time longer when they get older and think what they have done,worn, and eaten in there lifes,animals are there for reasons and when something is bred too perfection for a certain cause they are used for that cause a race horse is for racing....NOT...pulling a cart full of milk!:( a guard dog is for protecting something....NOT.....to lick someone all over, HOW MANY MORE DO YOU WANT?

Re: Grand National
 

Agree with you totally staggers & bbb. I don't like it if any have to be shot after the race, I don't think anyone does but it wont stop me putting my yearly bets on tomorrow

Re: Grand National
 

Horses are not born with the desire to carry someone on its back, they have to be trained to accept it but they have no opt out clause written into the horse’s constitution. For that matter they don’t have a constitution. They just have man exploiting the animal and driving it beyond endurance sometimes just so that the man can win some money, a cup or prestige. What’s in it for the horse? Hopefully a good stable and good feed but also training, training, training to make it run faster and further than other horses. Some life!!!


try telling that to the donkeys that carried mary and jesus! what about the soldiers of the light brigade,what about the pit ponys,what about the white horse of wembley,the list is endless........................................... ..

Re: Grand National
 

The human being is an omnivore and as such has evolved to eat meat and vegetation although some people make the choice of not eating meat. So I make no apologies for eating meat, wearing leather shoes, jackets etc as a by product of killing an animal for its meat. The same goes for using duck feathers to fill an eiderdown. This practice has been going on for tens of thousands of years the world over so if anyone needs to put their brain in order it is you staggeringman. I eat meat, fish, poultry and various, if limited, vegetables. In other words a normal diet.

Racehorses, like greyhounds have been bred for one purpose and one purpose only – to race and to satisfy mans need to beat his fellow man and gamble on the outcome. The horse or dog has no say in the matter.

Dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousand of years staggeringman and I agree that birds should not be kept in cages, although it would be cruel to just free a bird that had been bred in captivity. And you are right we shouldn’t fish for fish in the name of sport. There is nothing wrong in fishing for the table but to catch a fish, throw it back and call it sport is immoral.

It wasn’t all that long ago at Cheltenham I think, when several horses HAD TO BE PUT DOWN because of injuries that they received during races Debbie J. If they hadn’t been racing they wouldn’t have got injured in the race.

We don’t use horses in battle any more nor do we use pit ponies. What about the white horse at Wembley? It wasn’t being raced around to try and beat some other horse to a winning post. It was doing an excellent job of crowd control. You really must be clutching at straws if that’s the best that you can come up with.

By the way if you believe that religious nonsense there was only one donkey that carried Mary. Joseph walked alongside.

Man has always used animals to help where man’s abilities have been too limited. Large animals like horses, reindeer and elephants with their superior strength and stamina have always helped man in his daily labours and been rewarded with food and shelter although in days gone by cruelty was rife. Dogs with their infinitely superior sense of smell are used to aid law enforcement but they are not raced to see which is fastest.

It is a great pity that someone cannot express their views on a subject without someone casting aspersions about their mental abilities and castigating them for doing so.

Re: Grand National
 

i am going to have a bet tomorrow... you are making me feel like a hypocrit now....the racecourse is nowhere near as dangerous as it used to be ..
but i DO hate cruelty[ WHAT A DELEMMA]

Re: Grand National
 

If you think the grand national is bad cop a load of this;

The first ever UPF sanctioned Weight Pull event in Scotland takes placetomorrow in Broxburn Spors Centre. This will be an internationallyrecognised event open to all breeds. The weigh in commences at 10Am andthe Pull at some point after 11am, various stall will also be there.Dogs at the peak of this sport have been know to pull 7,000lbs !!

There is a flier in PDF format but is to big for here.

Re: grand national
 

Then how come the jockeys are 6 stone weeds?

Re: grand national
 

Only on the flat. National hunt they are about 9 stone weeds.

Re: Grand National
 

Well, jambutty, as you say 'racehorses, like greyhounds are bred for one purpose only', which means that we would be deprived of the sight of such beautiful animals should it be stopped. As well as a complete industry being wiped out.
I imagine that a top racehorse is worth millions of pounds and it's owner would go to great lengths to ensure it's wellbeing. Unfortunately, accidents do happen as in every sport.

Re: Grand National
 

Dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousand of years staggeringman and I agree that birds should not be kept in cages, although it would be cruel to just free a bird that had been bred in captivity. And you are right we shouldn’t fish for fish in the name of sport. There is nothing wrong in fishing for the table but to catch a fish, throw it back and call it sport is immoral.


you live a sad life sat there on your leather chair who DOMISTACATED THESE ANIMALS? WE DID! dont be a arse hole get a life!i fly fish for trout and i get a sporting ticket, which means its a sporting ticket, i throw the fish back into the water, and its there to be caught again! what you on about? you know jack **** about nothing! you are one arse hole of a do-gooder and at the end of the day ! I DONT KNOW HOW YOU GOT TO THE AGE YOU HAVE . YOUR PARENTS WILL BE TURNING IN THERE GRAVES, get a life!:mad:

Re: Grand National
 

i dont give two ****es abouit being banned from accy web......... but when these people come on and post a load of ****e they dont know what they are on about , they should be barred this dick head has got me so wound up!this is a 60 odd year old thats done so well! he was a postman when the men where men!i dont know what he was ! but he is not a man! hope you have a good bet on the national tomoz!:p

Re: Grand National
 

A lot of the top horses both flat and jumps are better treated than we are. If you watch some of the racing these horses enjoy what they are doing and dispite being "domesticated" still behave as a wild animal would as so far as the strongest and fitest rules the herd. Racing is just a way of them doing this. End result we get the pleasure of watching them and the can do there Alpha animal bit leading to a win win situation.

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I haven't watched it since it was won by Elizabeth Taylor in National Velvet.

Re: Grand National
 

Blimey were did that come from?

Re: Grand National
 

She came from behind to win the national, only to be disqualified when it was discovered she was a fourteen year old girl.

I think she may need a sturdier horse if she was going to win it now though, as the film was made in the 40's.;)

Re: Grand National
 

Whould a Clydesdale be able to jump Beachers? At least racing has come a long way since then as female riders are becoming more commen.

Re: Grand National
 

So we would be deprived of the sight of such beautiful animals if horse racing were banned? Not much of a reason for keeping it going is it junetta? Rather selfish I think! As for the industry being wiped out – tell that to the miners, steelworkers, textile workers, car workers, sea fishermen to name just a few.

If a horse breaks a leg or suffers some other injury it is put down. I believe that the method is shooting. Not much of a reward is it?

If the best that you can do staggeringman is to get personal with insults then I know that you don’t have a valid argument.

Note to a mod. Do you really want such an obnoxious person as a member of this forum?

I accept that the top horses are very well cared for but only because they are valuable to the owners. Would the same level of care be lavished on them if they were not top horses? Less valuable horses, those that rarely if ever win or even get a place are not so well cared for.

One final point - for every winner there must be some losers.

Re: Grand National
 

Shooting a horse is a last resort the same as with any animal. Some of the losers as you call them go out to pasture at places that in some cases have facilities for children to learn to ride even the disabled (one not far from me) so they still have a happy life. Better than the continental idea that puts it on a plate because it "earning days are over."

Re: Grand National
 

It wasn’t much of a last resort at Cheltenham a few weeks back was it? Wasn’t it 9 horses put down? Were they that badly injured or did it have something to do with the expense of treatment?

I accept that some of the losers will be found good homes but those that cannot are put down and there are more of those.

Re: Grand National
 

Most horses that break a leg are destroyed because it is not possible to fix the break. Horse racing has strict rules around the destroying of animals and that does not come down to cost. If the animals leg can be fixed it will be even if that horse has to retire. The insurence for them is no different for them than say a fireman as there is a minute possibility a serious accident can occur. I have been to horse racing meetings and the vets concern is always the horse not the financial outcome. If they were not concerned for the horses why are stones removed and as much of the cut ground on the couse after each race not removed and re bedded?

As for Cheltenham yes it was a bad week but as it is a televised race any animals that are injured beyond effective vetinary help are at the forefront of any race outcome. It will always be there and not always over the jumps since flat horses can have the same issues though not as often.

If it was not televised would anyone notice or bother?

People do not just abandon an investment which a race horse is just because its not top flight anymore a lot end up running point to point racing which is the third form of raceing for horses in Britain

Re: Grand National
 

My argument isn’t about how well horses are treated in racing circles but whether there should be racing at all.

I think that it is immoral for humans to use animals to determine the outcome of a human competition. Even more so when the humans make wagers on the outcome. Sport is for competing humans who have a choice on whether to take part or not. Animals do not have that choice. They are coerced into taking part and trained to do so.

Racing across a field to see who gets to the other side first is not a natural horse or dog trait although in the case of hunting dogs the first to the kill gets the first bite at the meat. A horse may run for a variety of other reasons but being the first to get somewhere is not one of them.

That is my opinion and surely I am entitled to that.

I don’t expect anyone to agree with me but I do expect a coherent argument against my view without dashing off at a tangent with irrelevant issues.

Re: Grand National
 

On that basis what would we do if we did not have farms with cows sheep hens etc. The argument put forward is a valid one but if we never had animals of any kind domesticated or hand reared where would we be? No milk meat leather etc. If we fix one set of rules to animals because we use them in sport then we would have to fix them to all animals. Men have always and always will in the future use animals for one purpose or another. To us animals are a resource same as land oil wood etc and are treated ass such.

Re: Grand National
 

Re: Grand National
 

"Racing across a field to see who gets to the other side first is not a natural horse or dog trait " (Jambutty).

It may or not be natural, but I think the horses actually enjoy it because how many riderless horses do you see running with the others when the jockeys have been thrown off.

Re: Grand National
 

Whether a horse ‘enjoys’ a run is a moot point but they carry on running when the rider has been thrown because they are following the herd, as they would do in the wild when trying to get away from danger.

But that is getting away from the topic of this thread. Why should animals be used for man’s sport?

Re: Grand National
 

So we should not use animals for sport (your opinion and respected as that) but use them for everything else. Were is the difference?

Re: Grand National
 

Because we want to and others enjoy what is on offer simple as that.

Re: grand national
 

are you french then ????

Re: Grand National
 

As a species the human being has evolved to eat meat and vegetables. We used to hunt animals for their meat and skins. We have learned to herd certain animals so that we no longer need to go out and hunt them for food. Sadly some animals are treated badly in the interests of more profit but that is a different issue.

We have as much right to eat animals as they have to eat us, if they get the opportunity. It’s called the natural order of things.

That is the difference. Herd, coral and kill an animal for its food value is OK because it is part of our natural make up. Forcing an animal to race another to satisfy some human foible to prove himself a better person than another is not OK.

Re: Grand National
 

While there is money to be made and won people will continue with racing animals. Another weakness of humans if you like. The sums involved make it at present unprofitable to ban as even the govenment makes cash from these sports especially horse racing.

Re: Grand National
 

well ive backed le duc ...33/1... :D .......

Re: Grand National
 

and because i just won 32 pounds :)

Re: Grand National
 

Jam butty you say we shouldnt bread these horses for racing, im sorry then what should we bread them for???? Eating ok then for the French!, to let run and frolick in a field? they already do that!

If horse racing was abolished then many of these horses who have been raced and have lived a happy life and then gone into retirement, would never have been born! This would have meant the almost death of the horse when the moter engine appeared

Re: Grand National
 

That is correct John Timmins, we should not breed horses for racing.

Quote:

im sorry then what should we bread them for???? Eating ok then for the French!,

and that is a facetious remark.


No animal should be bred for human sport.

Re: Grand National
 

Racehorses are a different breed than the horses you see in fields, running or standing still. All racehorses are bred from an original base of three stallions, the Godolphin Arab, the Darley Arab, and the Byerley Turk. They are bred to run. Since my revered boss has a large stable of racehorses, I have met many people involved in horseracing, and have been to a number of events. The horses are extremely well cared for, and yes, they do enjoy running. If you have ever been lucky enough to ride a good racehorse (and stay on) you can feel the enthusiasm of the animal on the gallops.

I do not necessarily agree with the National, the field is too big even though it has been cut down, and many people enter horses which are not up to the job just because of the kudos. There should be stricter entry requirements for such races.

I appreciate that Jambutty is entitled to his point of view. However, the number of people employed in racing is enormous. Does he feel that we would be justified in putting all those people out of work just because that has happened in other industries?

And what about polo ponies? Far more injuries/fatalities in that sport than in racing.

Re: Grand National
 

So the excuse for continuing to use horses for human sports is ‘it would put a lot of people out of work’ is it? That is exactly the same excuse put forward in the Hunting debate.

If the horse racing industry had not developed in the first place there wouldn’t be anyone to put out of work. However as it has developed into what it is now then that is just too bad if they lose their jobs.

You are trying to turn my view into one purely against the horse racing industry pendy. It isn’t! I just used the National as a prime example. My view is, as I have stated numerous times, that animals should not be used for human sporting activities. Now which part of that do you not understand?

As a nation of alleged animal lovers how can people square their collective conscience when they force animals (horses and dogs) to run from A to B giving their all and some being killed just because two or more humans want to find out who gets to B first?

Last year 180 horses had to be destroyed because of racing accidents and this year’s National brought one equine fatality.

Re: Grand National
 

What of the donkeys at Blackpool? Kids that ride horses/ponies at show jumping and gymcana? Are these to be classed as sport?

Re: Grand National
 

Would that include sheep dog trial competitions?

Re: Grand National
 

According to the Oxford English Dictionary sport as a noun means - an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others.

The mention of animal is noticeable by its absence.

I don’t think that you can class donkey rides at the seaside as a sport SPUGGIE J. There is no competition involved.

However in gymkhanas and show jumping there is competition so it is a sport. The fact that it is kids taking part doesn’t change that.

I wondered when someone would get round to sheep dog trials garinda. Much obliged to you for doing so. I take the view that as the dog is demonstrating what it does together with its master as part of their daily working life then it is hardly a sport.

I will save someone the bother of bringing up hunting dogs by doing it myself. Hunting with dogs to put meat on the table is cruel and archaic and in this day and age in this country totally unnecessary but nonetheless not a sport. Any other reason for hunting with dogs can be classed as a sport but it is still cruel.

Re: Grand National
 

If thats a picture of you in your AVATAR then you didn't miss out much meat. :D

Re: Grand National
 

Er! Which picture would that be? That frog looks pretty skinny to me.

Oh! You mean the other one!

Yep! That’s me but it’s not because of meat.

Re: Grand National
 

Sports with animals is for the pleasure of humans. The donkeys are also there for human pleasure even if its the shortstops. The comment on sheep dogs is another form of enslavement which is in sense no different than a jockey and a horse, jockey is master horse is slave and the horse is
"demonstrating what it does together with its master as part of their daily working life."

Re: Grand National
 

u beat me to it!!!!

Re: Grand National
 

Oops sorry JT. :eek: :o :)

Re: Grand National
 

Always happy to oblige.:)

Does the dog have any say as to wether it wants to participate in any competitions?

Re: Grand National
 

If you consider that sports with animals is for the pleasure of humans SPUGGIE J then that is your prerogative. Equally mine is that animals should not be used for human sports. We shall just have to agree to disagree.

Quote:

The comment on sheep dogs is another form of enslavement which is in sense no different than a jockey and a horse,

Just exactly when does a human saddle the sheep dog and ride it?

Quote:

Does the dog have any say as to wether it wants to participate in any competitions?

No animal has a say in what it is being trained to do garinda. In the case of a dog it views the master as the lead dog in a pack and a dog will follow the leader.

My view as I have already stated is that it is wrong to use animals for human sports and I include birds and fish in that statement. Birds should not be caged. They should be free to fly around as nature intended. Certain birds should not be bred just so that they are frightened into taking flight just so some oik can point a shotgun at it and kill it even if it is for the table.

If fish are caught they should be taken for the table. To catch a fish, rip huge tears in its mouth to remove the hook and then throw it back so that someone else can catch it is plainly wrong and cruel.

And that is my last word on this subject as it is going nowhere.

Re: Grand National
 

I'm all for the grand national because at the end of the day these horses are bred to run,jump and to with stand bad weather so whats so bad.:confused:

Re: Grand National
 

I fish for trout and they are for eating. Dispatched quickley with the priest to avoid it suffering.

Re: Grand National
 

When did the dog say that was it's views?

Who did it tell, Dr. Doolittle?

Re: Grand National
 

Then we agree to disagree.