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i agree its his right no question but i,m still bugged that the comments he made about vile have not been addressed.:(

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cyfr you aint a tory your just deluding yourself mate, your to good hearted to ever be one.;)

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CYFR.. same old 80's Tory spin.."Help people help themselves" = ( miners,textile workers,engineers what help did they get?)
"engourage motivation" = (abolish the wages council and the minimum wage to encourage immigrants to work for peanuts )
"bring people out of deprivation" (a deprivation that the Tory Goverment caused,)
"bring people out of deprivation by helping them help themselves" ( get on your bike, work for a wage you can't even live on while the taxpayer will subsides you with social benifits, at the same time subsidising employers, some of these employers just happen to be members of the cabinet!)

you are an old tory mate.. sad thing is you don't even know you are.

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double job

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I'm sorry but thats just not true. It's not some sort of conspiracy. I can't put right the way Thatcher went about doing things and as someone said, the unemployment isn't wholely her fault anyway.
Face up to reality, the Conservative party is different now, you don't need to have the same old unrational views on the party because of what one of the leaders did some two decades ago.
The same way I don't burn New Labour at the stake for their past decisions, although I am happy to point out where I think old Labour went wrong, I don't think New Labour are the same beast, at least while we have Blair and Brown in charge. A strong ecnonomic right-wring government like Thatchers was only needed to counter the years of Labour AND Tory socialism in the past (Torys never tried to revserse the effects really).

Nowadays theres no need for extream politics because it's been brought to the center. Fifteen years (or whatever it is) on, you can't call the Conservative party the same beast, the grassroots membership voted Cameron in remember, knowing his 'compassionate conservative' credentials. They voted him by 2:1, over the much more right-wing, 'old Tory'.

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sorry cyfr i find it very hard to believe that cameron is compassionate,he says he is but after once i was asked if i knew what conservitive means i was told =conserve for oneself- by a tory m.p. so you'll forgive my cynisism.

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CFR
Unfortunately the Tory party will never be different, they still have the same basic idealogy (and always will have). As for David Cameron having 'compassionate conservative credentials' can a leopard really change its spots.
The Tories will always have the interests of the 'Employers' and the 'Monied Classes' at heart. Look at the way they decried tha minimum wage. I actaully asked Peter Britcliffe (along with the other parliamentary candidates) a question at an open forum meetting brfore the 1997 election, about low apy and the minimum wage. He actaully thought it was ok to pay people extremely low wages - I don't know how he thought they could live on £2.00 an hour (which was the wage rate I quoted as per an advert in Accrington Observer).
Maybe when you go out in to the real world CYR, you will learn just how hard it is for the majority of people in Hyndburn to earn a wage - never mind a decent living wage.

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Which MP was that?

clatonender, what are your comments based on? Of course they can change, look at the past and now, they're completly different. Cameron is fighting a center battle, The last 5 Conservative leaders fought for right-wing policy.

"can a leopard really change its spots."

What sort of question is that, of course it can. Look at all the new modernisers in the Tory party, they helped get Cameron off the starting block as he was once a nobody.
The labour party are no longer the party of the left, are you trying to tell me that party change can't happen? Because it's happened in front of my eyes while I grew up.

Oh and, if Mr Britcliffe did say that, well, what one counciller said back before 1997, dosn't reflect the party as a whole nearly 10 years on.

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Ok, so what Peter Britcliffe said, when he was a parliamentary candidate in 1997, isn't important (or at least as far as you are concerned). If Peter Britcliffe had changed he would be acting on the powers introduced in the 2004 Housing Act, so that private landlords are licensed in Hyndburn. That would be a very local example of 'compassionate Toryism'.
I still maintain that the present Tory leadership are only saying what they think people want to hear - I am sure they haven't changed at all. It is 50 years since I asked my father ( who was an ordinary working man), what was the difference between the parties, and what he said then is still true. The Tories only look after their own kind.
You say that the Labour Party is no longer left wing -are you in touch with the main body of Labour Party members?

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Sorry the server was playing up again

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It seems to me that there is a crucial difference between the changes that Tony Blair brought to the Labour Party and those that David Cameron is seeking to do with the Conservatives. To show that Labour had really changed he forced it to give up something the Party really cared about, namely Clause 4. The change was painful for Labour but it really did change. With David Cameron what we are seeing is the spin of change - we'll know they've really modernised when they've given up on an outdated policy that they really care about; Europhobia would be a good example, but as they are about to pull out of the organisation that all other European Conservative parties are in it looks like Dave's flunked this one!
:engsmil:

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Well, New Labour know all about the'spin of change'....they have used it enough themselves to be able to recognise it.
And what has Europe done for us....precious little from where I stand.......and I for one am against Brussels dictating what we can and cannot do. OK....so you may say that I don't understand the finer points of the EU....so educate me!

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I don't think the bit about Europe was one of Camerons policies? Didn't he say he wanted to pull out of the EPP before he was elected as leader?

Personaly I dislike Europe for anything but trade reasons. We're our own country and no reason why we should be ruled from Europe.

I'm quite happy that he's taken a stance on Europe, not like Mr Blair who let the French/Germans have their way, then give an extra few billion which Thatcher fought hard for. He can only rule so long being a soft touch and trying to make friends, rather than putting down his foot and actualy getting stuff done for our country.

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Double post... you running windows roy? :p

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We'll also know they've changed when the grass roots Conservative members accept the approved ethnic/female weighted candidate lists Cameron is keen for them to adopt, so far with very little success.

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Margaret, I would not attempt to educate anyone on the finer points of the EU as I have not got a clue what they may be.
Its ironic that the only Goverment to sign up for the treaties that have made significant changes as to how Britain is ruled were signed by a Tory Goverment! the Conservatives took this nation into the EEC and signed up to the treaty of Rome, and rubber stamped it by signing a treaty that this country still has to abide to, the Mastrict agreement.
As for Thatcher taking on the EU regarding a refund of contributions her party signed up to in the first place..rather than good old Maggie "swinging " her handbag she was simply going "cap in hand" like a common begger when her cabinet realised the mess they had made of this country's economy

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The mess they made of the economy? What? Previous to Thatcher yeah. She tried to correct it, and it worked, look at the gift that Labour were handed.
The Conservatives took us in to the European Economic Community, but Labour wanted us to be in it too, so you can't try and throw that card :p

Our country dosn't have to abide by anything, we can drop out of the EU if we want, we just have to reverse an act of parliament..

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By my memory.. that is getting slower, the official Labour party line was a vote NO! in 1972. no country has to abide by anything, so whats the line now? the Tory's will relieve us of the power they gave to the EU?

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Just to carry this on.. when has this country ever had the workforce,applied by law, been ristricted to work only 3 days a week? and when was the last time the population had to suffer compulsory power cuts? do I need to tell you? 73 under the Tories!

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No thats not what I said, don't read between the lines. I said that if we wanted to we could pull out, we arn't abided by things against the will of the people.

In 1962 Macmillian (Tory) applied to join EEC, the french vetoed "Britain was not sufficiently European-minded yet to break away from the Commonwealth and accept a common agricultural policy"

In 1967 Wilson (Labour) wanted to join the EEC, the french vetoed "Britain had to improve its economy"

The french president who was rejecting UK applications resigened in 69 and in 1973 Heath joined the EEC.

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http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...b-22265-8.html

The threeday week was largely due to the miners Union, Thatcher sorted that lot out. I never defended the past conservative governments before her, cause they could have done better.

However, what about the winter of discontent? Lost Labour the election, there were certainly power cuts then, and that was in 78/79 not 73 :)

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Brilliant, Greg! Just given you some karma for your sheer cheek! A supporter of New Labour accusing another party of "spin". You guys invented it! :D

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Wyn...I think that was what I was implying in my earlier thread.....and Mancie, the education I was expecting was from Greg....but all that you posted I already was aware of........I just wondered if along the way there was something that I had missed:).

As for 'New Labour'...they just dressed themselves in tory clothes and hoped that the real socialists wouldn't notice...and a lot of them didn't!

I hope that by now I have convinced some of you that I have NO political allegiance.

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We will see come 2009, or herhaps earlier if Blair stays in long enough ;)

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[QUOTE=Cyfr]Which MP was that?

if i could remember cyfr i would certainly tell you, it was when arthur davidson was the mp for accy and i went down to the smoke as part of a deputation to lobby him, and it was some smug tory git in the house bar afterwards.

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Greg, the Tories remain "essentially unchanged" in the sense that while the leadership have at least given lip-service to change the party activists are still traditional Tories. But the same can equally be said of Labour. How many rank-and-file party members are genuinely New Labour? The ones I've talked to are completely at odds with the party heirarchy on a whole range of issues from the Iraq war to tuition fees. However, you're right about the Tories not experiencing a defining "clause 4 moment" yet.

As for the karma, you're welcome (and don't forget, this is the second lot of karma I've given you, as I thought you deserved some for having the bottle to make an appearance on Accychat in the first place, in marked contrast to the reclusive Councillor Britcliffe). However you're now doubly welcome as I've just read elsewhere about your campaign to get Rovers and Burnley playing at home on the same days, enabling Stanley to play their home matches on alternate Saturdays with no competition from either of them. Obviously, too late for the coming season, but if this comes in for the 2007/08 season, I believe it will literally transform Stanley's fortunes. The best idea I've heard from a politician for a long time! :)

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I'm sorry but what is this based on?
The activists voted Cameron in 2:1 over a traditional Tory. If the vast majority of the activists were still traditionals they would have voted in David Davis.

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No, they wouldn't. They've voted for Cameron because they think he can get them into power and they're willing to put their principles on hold.

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Why are you so sure the next election will be in 2009. The last election was in May 2005, and as a parliament can last for up to 5 years, the next election does not nedd to be held until 2010. In fact you will find that the last Tory government, with John Major a PM, was voted into power in 1992, but served the full 5 years, the elcetion was on 1/5/1997.
Even when Tony Blair relinquishes the job of PM, there does not need to be a general election, the Labour Party will then choose another leader, who would then become PM.

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Oh. Right. :rolleyes:

Glad you sorted that one out! I guess theres not much of a come back to write, as you've clearly made up your own mind through speaking with the few hundred thousand Conservative activists, and deemed they only voted him in to get in to power. Even though thousands more have joined the Conservative party after the election of Cameron showing they joined for his Compassionate Conservativsm.

If a party wins on a manifesto they have a duty to uphold that manifesto, the Lords will try to ensure that a party in power dosn't go against it's manifesto (Like they did when they put forward an amendment to the ID card scheme, to ensure it wasn't mandatory, because Labours manifesto said they would not be mandatory.)
The opposition will oppose things which go against the governments manifesto too, because they're there to scruitinise. Heck, even the governing parties own MP's will, because they have a conscience.

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I think you have summarised the Tory 'faithful' very well with this comment.

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Yeah im aware that theres a manditory election after 5years, but Blair has called an election after 4 years for the previous 2 terms, so my assumption was Brown (Again i assume Brown will become the next PM) would call one in 2009, however as you say it could well be 2010 :)

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Thanks, Claytonender, but I must say, I think there's a similar gulf between the Labour party members and leadership - ie, I think the activists are a lot more left-wing. As you're a party activist yourself, I'd be interested to know if you think that's true?

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So you seriously believe that thousands of Tory party members have experienced an overnight conversion and ditched their cherished beliefs about market forces, immigration and many other subjects to join touchy-feely Dave's modern, progressive Conservative movement? You poor, deluded boy!

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Not an overnight conversion no. They havn't had a chance to vote on a leader since 2001. In 2001 they got to vote on Ian Duncan Smith (Right wing) or Ken Clarke (more center), however a lot of the Conservative activists do not want full integration with Europe the way that Ken Clarke did, so a right-wing candidate preveiled over him.
The point im trying to make is that they havn't had a chance to vote on a moderate candidate yet, so it's not an overnight conversion, its from back past 2001, not to mention a lot of the membership will have changed, people leave, people join, people die, people are born.

I'm not deluded at all, you're following an anti-conservative stance, not a rational stance where you look at all the facts and come to a conclusion. Where as I am perfectly happy to point out Conservative failings and express how the past 3 leaders have been usless because they were too right wing when we need stability from Conservative ideologies, not far-out right ideas.

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I'm merely pointing out that, in my opinion, there are striking parallels between the changes the Tories are going through and the transformation of the Labour party a few years ago. Ian Duncan-Smith was the Tories' Michael Foot figure; he embodied many of their most cherished beliefs - a right-wing approach, middle class respectability etc. However, they realised that they'd never get into power with him, so now they have a leader who has a fighting chance. However, just as many rank-and-file Labour members still retain the socialist values of old Labour, so many ordinary Tories are still right wingers at heart.

And, yes, you are deluded, Cyfr. Hopefully as you grow older, you will become a little less naive and see things as they really are.

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Back any of this up as fact, please. If you can give me a recent poll or something that says that the majroity of the Conservative membership are far right rather than moderate right, then i'll happily retract my statement about them. But so far, i've provided reasons as to why you might have this perception of the membership, and everything holds up, the fact that they havn't had a chance to vote for a moderate Tory in 5 years, and even then he was pro europe where as many Conservative members don't want that, so your perception could go back decades.

I am not deluded, i'm perfectly able to make rational decisions. Please, if theres one thing I dislike, it's patronising me because im younger than you. I don't put my age and picture on here so it can be used as an excuse to try and get the upper hand in a debate.

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Never having done it myself (;)), I feel able to comment that this thread has wandered quite a bit from the accusation by a Tory Accy Web member in the press, that this website is full of vile tirades against Peter Britcliffe.

At least it's brought some interesting debate.

Who was it that you should never talk about religion or politics?

Very often they result in our most interesting threads.__________________

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Do you actually live in the real world. Cyfr? Do you ever go into any Con Clubs? I do, not for political reasons, but because you can drink cheap beer in a chav-free zone. The Tories I speak to are by and large a pretty right-wing bunch. They've voted for Cameron, not because they have much belief in him but because they reckon he's the best chance they've got of getting into power and they'd rather have a middle-of-the-road Tory government than none at all.

I'll start treating you like a rational adult when you eventually come down from that ivory tower you're living in.

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Yes I do live in the real world. Isn't it pretty obvious that the more right-wing enthusiastic activists would be more inclined to go to the Conservative Clubs, and hence what you saw was not representative of the whole membership.

You should start treating me like a rational adult now, the fact that i'm younger than you does not make you any better, and dosn't give you the right to patronise me.

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Double post

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And to think that I was quite enjoying this little discussion/debate/whatever. Then all of a sudden ad hominem attacks begin to surface symbolising a weakness in attack strategy. Rather than turn this into some flame on "The Little Guy", why don't you formulate an intelligent and reasoned argument. I don't agree entirely with Cyfr's points, but there's no need to blatently insult him. This may be news to you, but if you go to a conservative club, you're going to find conservatives. And only the most hard core conservatives will go out of their way to go to said clubs. They're obviously going to be hardcore right-wingers. Or at least a fair few. In the same way that when I go to labour clubs I find that quite a few of the people there willing to indoctrinate me into the ways of Unions and Workers' rights. This doesn't mean that every person who votes labour believes that Unions should be free to roam the earth as Gods. As for this Tory MP that you might have met sometime in the... was is 80's? 90's? Anyway... you met him and you think... well you're pretty sure now you think about it... that he probably said something about conserving for oneself... or whatever. Nice bit of anecdotal evidence that proves...???

P.S. Next time you use complex phrases like "Ivory Tower" in your efforts to patronise people, at least get them in the right context.

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CYFR - Whilst I don't agree with most of your opinions, it is very heartneing that someone of your age is taking an interest in politics.I apologise if any of my posts, in reply you have appeared to be patronising, because I didn't mean them to be.
I do think, however, that your views will change as you gain more experience of the world. Theories about Politics are fine, but wait till you have suffered because of the firm you work for 'downsizing' or moving their work 'offshore'. Then your ideas may change.

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[QUOTE=DeShark]And to think that I was quite enjoying this little discussion/debate/whatever. Then all of a sudden ad hominem attacks begin to surface symbolising a weakness in attack strategy. Rather than turn this into some flame on "The Little Guy", why don't you formulate an intelligent and reasoned argument. I don't agree entirely with Cyfr's points, but there's no need to blatently insult him. This may be news to you, but if you go to a conservative club, you're going to find conservatives. And only the most hard core conservatives will go out of their way to go to said clubs. They're obviously going to be hardcore right-wingers. Or at least a fair few. In the same way that when I go to labour clubs I find that quite a few of the people there willing to indoctrinate me into the ways of Unions and Workers' rights. This doesn't mean that every person who votes labour believes that Unions should be free to roam the earth as Gods. As for this Tory MP that you might have met sometime in the... was is 80's? 90's? Anyway... you met him and you think... well you're pretty sure now you think about it... that he probably said something about conserving for oneself... or whatever. Nice bit of anecdotal evidence that proves...???
you might have been enjoying this debate but you wern't taking much notice?it was me that did meet(not might) and it was well before the 80s/90s as you would know if you knew your politics.

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Cyfr, why would "more right-wing, enthusiastic activists be more inclined to go to the conservative clubs"? Surely, these mythical, moderate Tories you speak of are just as enthusiastic as the right-wing ones? And why don't they go to Tory clubs? Are they teatotal or just plain anti-social? I now have a vision of a silent army of thousands of liberal-minded Tories sitting in their homes waiting for the call from the boy David.

DeShark, a very impressive first post. What a pity you couldn't get your basic facts right. Never mind, perhaps you'll pay more attention next time, eh?

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Is it not obvious? The more extreme your views, the more enuthusicastic you get about a subject. Hence the reason why theres so much voter turnout when the parties policies are far apart.
Now, could you show me any real evidence to backup your claim other than a few people you met down the local Tory Club?
At least I tried to interpret the way the membership have voted over the last 6 years or so, which is a heck of a lot more representative than a few people in a local club.

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Really? So, those with traditional Tory views are more enthusiastic in their beliefs than those with moderate views? I would have thought that this is quite an insult to all moderate Tory party members, including yourself. As for your "interpretation" of Tory leadership voting patterns, surely these moderate Tories would have voted for Ken Clarke rather than Ian Duncan-Smith, as the former's views on Europe are not that different from David Cameron's, although you may be able to correct me on that.

I'm also still puzzled by the apparent dominance in Tory clubs of, to quote DeShark's phrase "hardcore right-wingers" if what you say is true. Surely, now the one-nation faction are in the ascendancy, there should be more evidence of them by now...or do they not get out much?

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Exactly my point. The Labour party leadership has become more moderate and this has attracted more support from ordinary voters, but the party activists are still resolutely left-wing. Quote from Claytonender to Cyfr earlier in this thread, "You say that the Labour Party is no longer left wing - are you in touch with main body of party members?" I also go into Labour Clubs (cheap beer, chav-free zone etc!) and Claytonender is right on the money in this.

In my view, the Tories are now a mirror image of the Labour party in this way, but apparently not according to Cyfr.

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I agree. The labour party's leader is further right than his party and the Conservative party leader is more moderate. But who is it that rules the country in essence? I think Blair proved quite aptly in his recent reforms on Education that he doesn't need the support of his own party to pass right-wing bills and that he can depend on the opposition party to fulfil his requests. Therefore, in effect, it doesn't matter what political persuassion the main body of party members hold, if their leader is right, then right wing policies will be passed, with or without their support. Surely it would be better to have a leader who shares the same views as his party. Then, when I go to vote for a party, I can be sure that both the party members and the party leader are willing to carry out the views that I stand for and voted in favour of. When voting for labour, I get the same right-wing policies as I would under any other right wing govt.

But of course David Cameron isn't left wing! He's "conservative to the core". But then again, his party have illustrated that they want change simply by voting for him. They had the option of a stuck in his ways Tory or the more revolutionary figure of David Cameron. They voted for change. Yes David Cameron will implement core Tory ideas, ideas that I must say I don't like; Privatisation, poor Union backing, reducing support for those who need it. He hasn't even promised to reduce taxes, a statement which worries me seriously. It's like "I'd like to adopt certain features of conservativism... but screw the fiscal parts, our nation's in too big of a mess for that now".

I still haven't decided upon my political persuassion as of yet and it's not until recently that I started to take an interest in these things. So yes, I may be wrong, but it'd make for a more interesting argument if you could back up your statements instead of dismissing mine as puerile.

P.S. Sorry for not paying enough attention to the debate and misquoting you. Kinda ruined my entire first post. Ah well... I stand by what I said about patronisation being a weak form of debating style.

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It isn't typically conservative to hoist his prefered candidate lists on local selection committees, which he admits are weighted in favour of women and ethnic minorities, and even includes an out lesbian.

Surely if he was a true conservative he would want the best person for the job regardless of gender or colour. This positive discrimination sounds more like something that was done by the old looney left in the eighties.

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The best person should always get the job, and thats why im totaly against the likes of Blairs all women short lists... However there should be something to encourage constituancies to pick a more representative set of candidates, but still the best person should be picked. Just, at the moment, woman are often overlooked, regardless of whos best.

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Who we talking about here Gary????????????????:D :D

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It's your Dave that has the lists which are biased in favour of women and ethnic minorities. Which at the moment are being ignored by local Conservative associations in favour of the more traditional candidates, ie: white middle class men.

I smell trouble brewing.:)

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That was my point, essentially. The "conservative to the core" was a quote. It goes to show that in trying to please everyone you please no-one. It's where labour got their oh so cheap phrase Cameron the Chameleon from. Cameron is willing to be picky about which conservative ideas he wants and which he doesn't. I absolutely adore his character and style and watching him on PMQ gives me a giggle, but I can't stand him to be honest.

I'd also like to clarify what I said earlier about my own political persuassion. What I meant to say was that I don't know who I'll be voting for in the upcoming elections. I support liberal ideas and freedom. All things in moderation. For example, I believe in a free market, but I disagree with monopolisation. Many would place me to the conservative side because of this. But then I also believe in supporting those who cannot help themselves. Those who are able to work but deny the opportunity do not, in my opinion, deserve the support of society. I agree with the lowering of taxes and agree with privatisation. I would probably say I'm erring towards left-wing conservatism with a healthy dose of freedom. If such a thing exists. This would probably make me vote conservative (if they still held their older values of privatisation, which cameron doesn't, and he won't reduce taxes... he'll probably take away benefits too). I don't know how that helps to progress the argument, just thought it'd be useful to use against me.

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Double Post :rolleyes:

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That would never happen on here!:eek: :D

Welcome to Accy Web by the way.:)

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Lol... I hope that was sarcasm. Cause otherwise you just don't realise how funny you are.
Cheers!

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Why, that's what I've been saying all along! Sadly, though I don't have any statistics to support my argument, just a gut feeling from talking to members of both parties. You obviously share my gut feeling. Like you, though, I'd much prefer it if party leaders reflected the views of their party, so we knew what we were voting for.

However, once again, DeShark, I must pull you up for accusing me of things I haven't said. Where in my posts have I dismissed your statements as "puerile"? Do pay attention in future!

Anyway, can't stop, I've got to go and "talk to some activists" for a few hours. ;)

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Never going to happen unless you happen to find a one member party.
In the end why does it even matter what the membership feel? It's the Leader who has overall control over policy, at least with New Labour and always has been for the Torys..

Your 'gut feeling' is based on the opinions of a few people in a Conservative Club, you know, the place that TRADITIONALY conservative members have gone to meet.. theres a keyword there.

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Yep, there's a key word. Pity you can't spell it, but that's Labour's education policy for you. Obviously, you and I are destined not to agree on this one, but I still find it strange that the Tory clubs are populated by a dwindling band of reactionary dinosaurs, while all those right on, inclusive new Conservatives are somewhere out there...waiting.

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I'm friggin' hilarious, and don't you forget it.

If you do you are in DeNile.:)

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I prefer them to be more in the middle than their party, that way you get the best policies of all parties through.Blair suggests something and because it's more middle, it takes the opposition to help him get it through. if blair was more extreme he wouldn't have suggested it all, because then he'd have his parties views. A leader should always be open to suggestions.

going back to 'two homes' how can you say that it's not an insult when he's actually said on here that he doesn't have two homes, he has one home and one house. Two jags had multiple homes, he lived in all, thats different. if someone has a second house thats let out as a business and you make out he has two homes thats an insult. It's not true.

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60 Thousand people still voted for David Davis. It's quite likely that they could populate the Conservative Clubs with those people, because as I have said many times, they're traditionalists and thats where Conservative members traditionaly went.

The fact that you're trying to make out that the more moderate members are some kind of French Resistance hiding away waiting for the call to arms, is somewhat absurd. I just believe that they don't go to traditionalist places like the Con Club, heck i'm a member myself and I have never been to a Con Club.

No we're proberbly not going to agree, because you don't want to give in, and would rather use personal attacks when your argument is weak. You have no real responce, so you try and attack my argument because I can't spell correctly. You try to patronise me because I am younger than you, in an effort to get the upper hand in debate. Well, sir, you are not any better because you are older, and i'm quite proud of the fact that i've come such a long way in the spelling department since a few years back I could hardly spell at all, so i'm not too bothered about a few double letters missed here and there.

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Most people that go to Ossy Con are only traditionalist in that they only go there because the drinks are cheaper than the pubs. I know lots of people that are members there that don't even vote Conservative.

Accrington used to have the largest Con club in the country. Since the last one closed down where do they meet now?

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Oh I do apologise. Me and my short attention span. It shall forever be my bane.

As for my unsupported "gut feeling"... It comes from watching as Labour ministers stand up, time and time again, asking if "The Prime Minister would agree that... *insert communist ideology here*?" to which Blair will reply 9 times out of 10 "Well... I understand... but... no". Thus... I can see first hand that Tony Blair does not agree with the rest of his party, in particular the back benchers. There is no measure of how left or right you are (except for the Political Compass of course =p) but it is possible to cite events when certain typically left-wing ideologies are dismissed out of hand by someone who would like to be seen as left-wing. More to the point, I've seen numerous interviews where Tony Blair has shrugged off any hints and him being left wing and not strongly disputed accusations of being right-wing. It is these events that lead to my gut feelings, not conversations with Old Labour supporters.


I do hope that I've not been neglecting to pay adequate attention once more, it might just drive me over the edge...:(

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So, you've never been to a Con Club, but you know all about the sort of people who go there? Classic! Wake up, Cyfr, and come out into the real world.

As for you, DeShark, you're quite happy to have a pop at me for patronising Cyrf, but then you indulge in sarcasm yourself. "It shall forever be my bane". Sixth form comedy.

I reckon you both have a bit of growing up to do but, never mind, one day you'll learn.

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Again, perhaps you should try and form some sort of valid argument. You have already told me that the majority of Tories at the Conservative Club are very right wing. So why would I need to visit a Conservative Club to prove it?

Of course I have growing up to do, it's what people do, even you. However, to try and imply that because you're older your argument is somehow more valid, is absurd. If you don't have a good argument then you could givein, trying to fill the gaps in your argument with petty attacks is not the best way to get your view accross.

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But if you went into a Con Club, you could actually talk to real, live Tory activists and...oh sod it. OK, Cyfr, you win, I "give in" (to use your phrase - you make it sound like an arm wrestling contest!).

I hereby declare that Cyfr is the winner of this debate. By the use of carefully reasoned arguments, he has indisputably proved that the majority of members in today's modern Conservative party are open-minded, idealistic individuals who have an inclusive approach to minorities and a deep concern with social justice for all members of society.

Happy now? Good. Right, I'm off to the pub to celebrate Father's Day with my kids. :)

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It's reported in today's Observer that on Tuesday Cameron is to make a speech stating that 'married' homosexual couples will get the same tax advantages as hetrosexual married couples if we get a Tory government.

I'm sure Tories throughout the land will be sat in Con clubs raising a glass to the enlightened attitude of their leader.;)

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So if you just live with your mate, you could get married and pretend to be gay just to get the tax incentives.

The only people who go in our con club are people after cheap booze or old dinosaur cons that still think if your conservative it's the right thing do, to drink there. I don't think any of the forward thinking open minded conservatives do. They're more likely to be in the market tavern, opposite side of the room to labour.

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I presume so, just like a guy and girl who were sharing a flat could if they really wanted too.

Though when you moved out you'd have to get divorced and do it all again when you left for your next flat.

Though the divorce settlements may outweigh the tax advantages.;)

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True, i'm glad I didn't get married, was thinking about it, to the ex not a guy, but I'm ok now.

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It's funny you should say that, as the most Tory person I know is also the gayest person I know. He'll be happy about it. :)

As am I, despite not being gay, it just goes along with my stance on freedom. Not that I'm a Tory per se.

So much for sarcasm being sixth form humour. :)

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Come on, DeShark, Cyfr has already wiped the floor with me by the sheer persuasive power of his arguments. You wouldn't kick a man when he's down, would you? :(

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Oh, happy, innocent, halcyon days, before AW got political.

:rofl38::rofl38::rofl38::rofl38:

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AW political:eek::eek: never:rolleyes:

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Of course not, it is just one long non Political,

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Hear Hear:mosher::mosher::mosher::D