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This week's Observer features a letter from one of our John Farrer, a member of this very site..

In it he writes, and I quote-
'Well, if you want to see the real Graham Jones log onto a local website to see the vile tirade of pure hatred and personal abuse spewed out by Councillor Jones and some of his cronies about Peter Britcliffe.'

Would this be similar to the tirade that was made against Gayle Knight on this very forum by her opponents?

I don't know who you consider a 'crony'. I for one stand by everything I've posted on this website about our Council leader. It would be most interesting if you could quote the vile bits on here for our perusal.

It's strange, you are very keen on using the local press to defend your pal Britcliffe and attack others, but when you could be some use, for instance when I asked what and where the conservation area is in Oswaldtwistle you are strangely silent.

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vile
adj 1: morally reprehensible; "would do something as despicable as
murder"; "ugly crimes"; "the vile development of
slavery appalled them" [syn: despicable, ugly, unworthy]
2: (informal) thoroughly unpleasant; "filthy (or foul or nasty
or vile) weather we're having" [syn: filthy, foul, nasty]
3: causing or able to cause nausea; "a nauseating smell";
"nauseous offal"; "a sickening stench" [syn: nauseating,
nauseous, noisome, loathsome, offensive, sickening]


Do you care to expand on this, and perhaps quote the vile bits about Peter Britcliffe for the other members to decide?

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I have contributed to several discussions about Peter Britcliffe, and I agree that they have not been complimentary to him. However I stand by everthing I have posted about him, they are honestly held opinions about him.
I would like John Farrar to be more specific about the 'vile tirade of pure hatred and personal abuse' poured out on this site. What about the remarks made about Gayle and Graham, is it ok to say things about them, but not expect remarks in return.
This is a typical 'Tory' attitude, it is unsettling for them when the 'Peasants Revolt', and don't know their place. They think that they have the 'Divine Right' to rule.

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I have also posted uncomplimentary comments about our council leader....and I stand by all I have said. I would not withdraw one single word about this man. We are all entitled to our opinions. The letter in the Observer, I have not seen yet....but from what you have posted Garinda it seems a touch like the pot calling the kettle.

I have not noted any of the vile tirades that John refers to.....maybe he is reading a different version of the website in a parallel dimension!

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It's amazing what people read into this site. Jaysay thinks that we're all attacking Peter, yet how often do people 'attack' me? It's nothing to do with being on one political side or the other and I don't think this site has any particular bias. People call it as it is, it's called debate and if you can't handle in Jaysay, stay out of it.

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Well said Gayle!

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I too have not had the opportunity to read J.Farrar's comments and it would be unfair of me to comment further until I have. However, I will say this; in common with most of my fellow townsmen I pride myself on being willing and able to call a spade, a spade. If our views and opinions on the abilities and motives of Cllr. Britcliffe are so wide of the mark and cause sufficient distress that he feels compelled to set his poodle on us then perhaps he might consider taking a leaf out of Cllr. Jones' book and try talking to the people he claims to represent and serve by logging on as himself instead of lurking in the shadows. Or is it that he considers himself above talking to the hoi-polloi whose taxes help keep him in the style to which he has lately become accustomed?

I am sure that if he were to introduce himself to the forum, members would welcome him with our customary warmth and friendliness and would be only too happy to engage him in serious discussion. However, I do not think that it would be adviseable for members to hold their breath while they wait.

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I'm not bothered what John says. It's a free country and I'll defend his right to free speech.

One sad aspect is that I have had several desperate callers calling me about any tenancies I might have simply because they have read I have 'numerous' properties to let. (I don't - WE have two small terraced houses - one we live in).

Over the last 10 years significent parts of this town/borough have gone downhill. Woodnook, Lower Antley, St Huberts Road, Exchange Street. Yet amazingly the market doesn't work. Empty properties produce high rents. Thousands of people are desperate for affordable decent housing (sub £70pw). And all they find is Housing Associations with signs, ALL FULL UP (and charging £80pw+), a council waiting list that is 4 times the size it was 2 years ago (3000) and Rackman landlords, wrecking neighbourhoods and offering dreggs for top dollar.

Place an ad and see how many sad, desperate, vulnerable, genuine people turn up telling their own tale of a £90 a week rent for a damp squalid affair. Some stories are really distressing.

While landlords show no responsibility and in some cases deliberatly trash neighbourhoods to collect more property on the cheap (Woodnook esp), Hyndburn declines and the Tories sit back and tell of £120,000 affordable houses being provided by the private sector. The private rented sector is the twilight world of seedy private speculators and people whose hopes were lost a long time ago, and who have long given up on politicians as useless wannabee's.

Its hard to deal with the people who are contacting me for an affordable nice home now (and they ring with hope) when all I can say to them is, "there is nothing I can do, I don't have properties". I don't think John or Peter will ever understand outside of political opportunity the state of Hyndburn today. Let them attack me. Its a democracy and I believe most people are honest enough to see for themselves.

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And then planning permission is not granted for new houses in some areas which would alleviate the problem.

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I agree with you A-B. I will bring everyone back to the very first thread that I posted on (for the benefit of Jaysay I've put the link here)

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...ght=panopticon

Yet over time I have come to be 'accepted' as a valued member of the forum. People often don't agree with me but you know what, I don't care, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I never object to people who disagree with me although I do find it disagreeable when people are nasty for the hell of it. I don't attack anyone and would welcome a wholesome debate with Peter.

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Surely PB has grown a tougher hide for being in politics......does he really need John Farrer to stand up for him? All I can say is that over the years that this man has been the leader of the town council, the place has gone to rack and ruin....my own eyes tell me that......I don't need a tory lapdog to tell me how I should view things....and certainly not how I should form my opinions.

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In fact the only time people really 'attack' Peter it's for not coming on this site and talking to us.

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Oddly enough, between the time of my last post in this thread and now, I have just had the opportunity to read J. Farrer's letter in this week's Observer.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it J. Farrer who was formerly married to ex-councillor Sandra Hayes? This all begins to smell a bit incestuous if you ask me.
I would offer to transcribe the whole thing for the benefit of ex-pat forum members but, to be perfectly frank, the sad and sorry diatribe against Cllr. Jones is not worth either the time or effort it would take to type. Though one could question Mr Farrer's motive in writing the thing in the first place and actually sending it to the Observer in the second place.

If this letter is an example of the best that the Conservatives can manage in the hatchet job department then it is no wonder that the borough is rapidly going down the pan.

You may imagine what it costs a lifelong conservative voter to say this, but I really do think that it must be said; in my opinion, Britcliffe and his administration are the very worst thing to happen to this borough in the whole sorry thirty odd years of it's existance. They should hang their heads in shame, but the sad truth of the matter is that they have no shame.

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You can't blame everything on the council leader though. At the end of the day, it's the people who make the neighbourhood, and if certain areas go downhill, it's not always the fault of the leader, some people choose not to respect others..

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Sorry, but no Cyfr it has to come from the top down.

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Could you explain further?

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Respect is something that has to come from the leadership. The Council leader, by the very definition of being a leader, has to lead the people of this area. He is the one ultimately responsible for housing decisions that create slum housing estates, he is the one ultimately responsible for the lack of amenities and he is the one ultimately responsible for the potential future of the borough.

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Even the greatest of leaders needs people with motivation to follow, and im sure we can all agree that some people just arnt interested in politics.

Off hand I can't think of any newly built estates that have become slums..

Many of the people who want the place to look more attractive, are the same people who will jump down the throats of the council and its leader for 'wasting money' when it should be better used on other things. They can't win no matter what they do.

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I'm sorry Cyfr but I disagree with you - a leader is selected because they have leadership skills. It is that person who has to make the decisions, who has to motivate and who has to take responsibility for everything. By what you are saying it sounds like you're about to absolve Tony Blair of any failings in his leadership too. If a leader wishes to take credit for the successes of an area then they also have to take responsibility for the mistakes.

As for the housing - at no point did I say that any new houses had turned into slums.

As for saying 'they can't win no matter what they do' - that is the ultimate cop out. Oh, we won't win so we might as well not do anything.

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Ermmm that thread got me thinking, maybe the park could do with a panopticon ;) or some form of artwork at least. Ossy is a bit lacking in works of art.

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For sure, if they take credit they need to also take responsibility for the mistakes (not that blair has done much of that).. what exact mistakes are we talking about here?
Why is it the fault of the council and not the government that existing housing estates have become slums?

'They can't win no matter what they do' is not a cop out. I was simply making a point that if the council use money to make something pretty it won't suit everyone and theres bound to be tons of people tearing them apart for not spending the money elsewhere..

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Jaysay was online when I posted this. Of course he doesn't have to reply or defend himself, he is as entitled to his opinion as we all are, but it would make interesting read. Is it really so vile here?

I think that castigating this website as a place of 'vile tirades' does a diservice to the moderators and members of this forum who endeavour to keep it free from too personal an attack. Public figures should be able to be held up to personal scrutiny, just as John Farrer has done in this week's Observer for his own political ends.

I'm still wondering if I might be a 'crony', but since I'm not a member of any political party or having never met Graham Jones I doubt it.

I did once jokingly mention that Peter Britcliffe sadly wasn't pictured wearing speedos in the calendar that was posted through his ward's doors, and which I think is still under investigation for misuse of Council worker's time in it's production.

You have used the press to air your views, I hope Mr Farrer you will do the same here.

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It would appear that a letter I sent to the Obs some 4 weeks ago has been published, I don't get my copy till the morning. It also appears that people don't like to hear the truth, it seems that its perfectly okay to make fun and castigate of a person who has given 23 years of service to the people of this borough. If you would like to trawl past threads on this site over the last 18 months you may just grasp what I am refering to, but there again it probably won't register will it.

If people want to look at what I have said on this web site they will see that I have never attacked anyone, all I have done is make comments on what others have said. If I remember rightly I also said that I allways give my name to letters published in the local press, unlike some people who attack others from immunity, I have used the name jaysay on this web site, but I would think that most people, especially in political circles know exactly what my real name is, in fact I told Gayle on May 5th as she thought that I was Pete Britcliffe, well for the rest of you my name is John D. Farrer, I am a life long Tory and proud of it, in fact a member for 44 years. I am not Britcliffes Poodle as some have said, I am just a life long friend, Peter deals with council matters I do my thing with the press. Just to make things very clear Peter has never had any say in what I write in letters nor have I told him what to do on council matters. When it comes to it we have both seen off plenty Labour supporters, it looks like Two Homes Jones will be the next. To those still on line good night, God Bless read you in the morning

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Thank you John. Still be nice if you could quote the vile attacks supposedly made on here about Peter.:)

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Perhaps the use of a stamp will result in earlier publication next time.:D

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*******************************

changed my mind :D

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Don't use the post Gary I always Fax my letters, just can't even brake the habit and use "E" Mails, bit too long in the tooth me thinks

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A gentleman never goes back on his word. I thought you were off to bo-bo's, but no another post?:eek:

Nighty night, mind the bugs don't bite.:D

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What ever made you think I was a gentleman Gary, that must be the best backhanded compliment I've had for many a long day, as for loging of well the ale hasn't worn of yet and I can't stand the Mint

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The situation in the rented sector in this borough is abysmal. Ok we need more low cost houses to buy, but with the wages most people are earning in this borough, they will never be able to own their own homes. Why should, those of us, who are fortunate to be homeowners, turn a blind eye to the poor housing in the privately rented sector. The landlords are only interested in making big profits, and have scant regard for the conditions they expect their tenants to live in, whilst charging sky high rents. At the same time they are forcing down the house prices of the existing owner occupiers in areas, such as Woodnook, which means they can buy up even more houses at rock bottom prices to make even more money.
Could Jaysay, please can you explain, why it is more important to make cheep jibes at Graham Jones, (who is a hard working councillor, who is trying to improve the living conditions of his ward (Peel) and wants to make the whole borough a better place to live in, for everyone) than to start to tackle the real problems of this once proud borough.
Surely as Leader of the Council for 5 out of years last 6 years, Peter Britcliffe should hold up his hands and say he has got it completely wrong (I would have expressed it in more graphical terms – but don’t want to be accussed of using ‘vile’ language. The phrase ‘Fiddling whilst Rome Burned’ springs to mind. Can you please tell me when he is going to come back from cloud cuckoo land and join the real world,

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The Mint?

That television is the perfect example of the Tory free market economy at it's best.

Cheap to run and produces very few winners.;)

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Lets not make quick remarks about the Tory ideologies shall we, or do we have to bring up 1997 and how the lefties had to become right wing to win an election? ;)

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double post - server is playing up.

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John (anonymously known as jaysay on here), you wrote in the ob,

"...(all the leters are my own work) I have always had my name and address published. This is unlike some people who hide behind pen names or ask for their names to be withheld. If you're not prepared to put your name to a letter and have it published then it's not even worth sending".

Why are you publishing letters/comments on here under a nome de plume then?

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Good point. Both Gayle Knight and Graham Jones post under there own names on here.

...and Cyfer I'll post exactly what I like about Tory policies. In 1997 you could say new Labour became a lot more right wing to win middle England, just as David Cameron is moving to the left with his gay friendly, multi-ethnic, women biased lists of contenders for by-elections. Bless.

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I don't agree with you either. A leader should motivate his/her people. When necessary he/she needs to find ways to motivate them as well, not the other way round as you suggest.

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As do I, but you don't garinda. Is there a reason for you hiding behind a girls name? ;)

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I'm afriad democracy is available to both sides no matter if you're left or right. I fail to see why moving towards a more representative set of MP's is somehow leftwing.

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I still stand by my words, some people simply are not interested in politics, and never will be no matter what leader they are given.

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I keep it simple. I make uncomplimentary remarks about everybody:)

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I`m no apologist for Graham Jones and don`t share his politics, but this sort of name calling is a little childish from a grown man.

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Very True ..................

That is where 99.9 % of all politicians/councillors fail (That is why council workers NEVER do a full day or job, NO leadership).................. they are people that cant hack it in other lines of leadership IE business....

Imagine if Richard Branson could be convinced into using his skills for hynburn council ???

Hyndburn would be a totally different place.....

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I'm not the one writing to the paper berating people that have a nom de plume. My luscious locked mug is all over the gallery, as is my name if people were really that interested in knowing it.

Garinda was a name I aquired in Glasgow. 'Gary-in-da-house'.

Which is what the excited masses whispered when I deigned a visitation on an establishment.;)

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Very interesting its okay to attack Britcliffe but you cry fould when people turn on poor Graham. Britcliffe can't be doing a bad jod for the people he represents (St. Andrews Ward) Ithink hes just been reelected for the 8th time since 1983

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When I joined this site I thought the Idea was to use pen names, I have never made any secret of my name, in fact an earlier post on this thread I told those who didn't already, what my name is, as I don't have a problem with people knowing my true identity. In some ways this has cost me dear over the last 24 years (thats how long I've been writing to the press). In that time I have had death threats, threats to burn down my home, windows broken, car tyres slashed, cars scraped with nails, threatening phone calls at all times of day and night, even dog dirt smeard of my front door, I bet that has never happened to you Graham. Even of late Peter Britcliffe has had the window in his front door smashed and a pint thrown over him in his local by a lout who just ran out the door, so please don't talk to me about abuse, I have had my share at the hands of so-called Labour supporters, just for having an oppinion. The only thing I will say Graham is this I will never heap personal abuse on who or any other political figure, the policies and beliefes yes thats fair game, but how can abuse you on a personal level as I don't even know you. I think every one in public life do things to make a differance, I'm sure that has always been your intention and I know its Peter's

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Ok Jaysay, I agree that the people of St Andrews have elected him for the 8th time. However it is the rest of the population of Hyndburn who also have to suffer him. When I was canvassing for Labour (I canvassed in every ward by the way) in the local election in May, the comments about him on the doorstep were less than complimentary to say the least, and before you ask - no I did not bring his name up - it was the people I was canvassing who mentioned him first.
The Man is an embarrassment to both his Party and the Borough.
I notice that you haven't made any comments about the rest of my posting - maybe Peter is in denial about the sorry state of low cost and rented accommodation in this borough. He probably thinks they are not worth the effort, as they are not potential Tory voters.
What we need in this borough are jobs that pay a decent living wage, and affordable good standard housing for everyone. How does Peter propose to curb the landlords who charge exorbitant rents for appalling housing. Or does he feel it is ok to 'screw' the poorest members of our society - it probably keeps them in check and they know their place. After all we should all look up to the Tories - they were born with the divine right to rule us and keep us subservient to them, maybe we should be touching our forelock and bowing to Peter.

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The sad thing about this affair is 1) it has nothing to with politics and 2) it is affecting other people. There are people who probably couldn't give a monkeys stuff about politics or me but have seen I have numerous houses to rent in the paper and are leaving hopeful messages on my answerphone to get back to them. There are other Councillors who ARE landlords and these people would be better off contacting them.

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I agree totally with what you are saying Willow the Whisp, why are Hyndburn Council not doing anything to control these unscruplous private landlords?
Also Jaysay, your post in the Observer did give anyone, who doesn't know Graham personally, the idea that he had properties to rent out. It is so sad that you have given people, are are desparate for decent housing, the wrong impression. All this for a rather sad headline, I hope that next week you will submit a letter correcting your errors - it is the least you can do- you owe it to the people of Hyndburn a proper explanation of your letter.

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I tried to follow the discussion but couldn't make out whos who and which side is good and which is the evil empire, being away from Accy does have its good points.

If this is a politician then god help the area, its the leadership that makes it good or bad, do the people empty thier own bins, clean thier own streets, stop fly tipping etc? who makes the area look good on the eye and something to be proud to own? This person is going back to the good old mill owner, look down on the peasants, they live in squaller and dirt, its thier own fault.
How many pound shops do you need to see that there is a problem.

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I remember reading in the local press that when Graham Jones became leader of Labour on HBC, Peter Britcliffe was quoted as saying that he looked forward to working with him, so why the attack in the press by someone so close to him?

By the way I'm still waiting to hear where the 'vile tirades' on here about Cllr. Britcliffe are.

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The simple fact is that in parts of Hyndburn - Church, for instance - Peter Britcliffe is about as popular as Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. Well, we all know what happened to him! However, at least Mr Al-Zarqawi was prepared to personally put his message across in the digital media, unlike Britcliffe who relies on one of his public-bar sycophants to do it for him.

By the way, you can't accuse me of buttering up to messrs Pope, Jones & Knight.

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Coucillor Britcliffe has served the area for 23 years we are told by Jaysay.....he may have had vision and foresight at first but I think he has lost his focus and has become more interested in getting his picture in every edition of the local paper. Yes, he was elected recently to the St Andrews ward in Oswaldtwistle for the eighth time....but maybe that was down to the apathy of the voters. And it strikes me that perhaps the truth stings just a bit...which maybe why John Farrer took pen to paper and jumped to his 'friends' defence.

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Then what on earth was the letter in the paper this morning if it wasn't a personal attack on Graham? What relevance is it to anyone that Graham owns two houses, a lot of other people have a couple of properties or a business - doesn't Peter have a business. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this unless someone has used their political position to benefit their business which I don't believe Graham ever has. And don't play the innocent, there are many times when you've had digs at me on here and in the paper. You frequently use cheap point scoring tactics instead of actually talking about politics.

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So stop being a bolshie teenager Cyfr and look to those fine upstanding pillars of our society, President Bliar and his deputy John Prescott, when you wish to blame someone for all our ills. :)

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Come on Gayle that wasn't a personal attack in the Obs, the problem was that I sent that letter into the Obs around 4 weeks ago as I explained to Garinda, the gibe about "Two Homes Jones" was a tongue in cheek effort, which was written the day an article appeared about Graham Jones having two houses. As for me having a go over abuse of Peter Britcliffe, I think I have every right to redress the balance, when ever Jonesy comes on here he likes to try and score cheep political points and is abley abeted by quite a few more, including your good self. If you check my postings on this site you will find a have started very few threads, but most of my post are comments on what others have said. It would appear that you would like it if the likes of yourself and Graham can say exactly what you like without any come back, well it aint going to happen. I have already told Graham about the abuse I have suffered at the hands of so called Labour supporters just for having an oppinion, I even had a trace put on my phone by BT under warrent from the police, now thats what I call abuse Galye when a person has to got to those extents to have a peaceful life, think about it would you like it, you would be screaming blue murder or in your case Red

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ok Jaysay -you say the letter was 'tongue in cheek' and sent to the Observer about 4 weeks ago. But can you please tell me where in the letter it is actually made plain that it was 'tongue in cheek'. You have said in an earlier post on this topic that is a person's politics you are attacking not them personally, but there have been several letters that you have written to the Observer over the years, which have been personal attacks.
Incidentally, you also mention an incident at the council AGM(which was jeld on 18 May), in the letter, by my reckoning that was only 3 weeks ago, so are you sure about the date you sent the leeter to the Observer.

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I wasn't refering to peoples surroundings, more their personal attitudes towards others. There are loads of people in deprived areas that respect everyone else, but then again theres a lot of people to counter that whome don't respect others, and that can't be fixed by changing some physical aspect of their surroundings. The leadership cannot change someone who dosn't to change or isn't interested in politics, to use an example, an Alcoholic needs to want to help him/herself for the change in their life to happen, then people can help them on their way.

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Not true - in fact, I only posted the other week that I was missing the arguments that this site used to enjoy on a regular basis. Those arguments were balanced debates where people got to have their say.

I don't condone that at all. But if you choose to send aggressive letters to the papers and behave on this site in an aggressive way then it should be no surprise when people respond to you in the same way.

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You didn't answer the bit about the pound shops

So if we give them nothing to be proud of its easier to turn a blind eye and do nothing.
Are any of the current politicians in Accy actually from Accy and still remember what it was like, the main reason I ask is fter reading this thread they all want to score points off each other and don't really give a sh it if anythings done to make the town a better place to live.

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Whilst I appreciate what CYFR is trying to say, a lot of the problems in Hyndburn are due to absentee landlords, who don't care what happens to other people who live in areas they own houses. A lot of these people are hard working and have always looked after their houses and the neighbourhood - but now find that speculators (being polite as I am ), just want to make as much profit as they can and couldn't care less about who they have as tenants or how much mayhem they cause in the area. In fact, it is to the advantage of these rogue landlords to drive an area down, as then they can pick up more houses at a rock bottom price. We meed Peter Britcliffe at al to bring him controls over the standards of these rogue private landlords.

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This forum is open to all members of the public, even Peter Britcliffe himself could redress the political balance if he so wishes and the vileness of the tirades don't offend his sensibility.

As for the abuse you suffered that is shameful but did it result in the prosecution of anybody at all connected with the Labour party, or is that just supposition on your part?

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Your right Claytonender, I've checked my data base and I wrote and sent the letter on 19th May, three weeks, just seemed longer. About Grahams properties, am I right in saying the Cllr. Jones owns two properties in Hyndburn, was the fact not reported in the Observer on the 19th May, is it not true that ever since the Cllr Jones as be squirming about regarding these said properties, The fact that I dubed him "Two Homes" was tongue in cheek, but it does not get away home the facts that he owns two properties, good luck to him, its not a crime, but please don't try and say that this is any form of abuse, it is 100% fact

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Wouldn't want you to. :)

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Aggressive, god have you lead a sheltered life if you think thats aggressive, I only tell it as it is, and if you don't like it tough. I'm now putting this to bed as the World Cup is under way and I have far more interest in Football these days than politics, but I'll still be watching with one eye:engsmil:

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I've been trying to answer Claytonender and Gayle but the server is going bananas, I'm fed up so I'm of the watch the footy on Telly Bye

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Even if the people im talking about (select minority..for now) had something to be proud of, they would most likely wreak it because said people have no respect. Just take a look at the graffti everywhere, phone box windows put through, new plants uprooted. Lifting certain people out of deprivation will not improve their respect, for example, that guy who won the lottery, and spent all his money winding his neighbours up, he bought a load of cars and him and his friends race round his garden crashing in to each other.

I don't sit here knowing the answers, but I can see that solving money issues does not solve the problem.

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Seeing as Accy Web was`nt mentioned by name, I wonder how many people logged onto Hyndburn-Lite and we`re sorely disappointed!:D

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Carry on thinking like that you'll be a raving red before Christmas!:p

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I know he could have at least given Accy Web's address. :(

Even Peter Britcliffe only mentioned a 'local internet forum' in his smoking column, when he said there was a price on his head for catching him red-handed with a fag.

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*Aquires dulux blue paint*

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As an exile, I've followed all this with great interest. However, the obvious question which has yet to be answered, Jaysay, is why on earth doesn't Peter Britcliffe post on here? He could then defend or explain his policies and refute all these slurs that you say have been directed at him. The leader of the opposition, Councillor Britcliffe's opponent in the recent elections and the local MP all post on here, so why not him? Come on, Peter, let's be having you!

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Sounds like typical Tory stuff for "market forces will sort it out" next it will be the "trickle down effect" (still got my tongue out waiting for the droplets)!

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Why do you assume these people must be labour supporters??

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I don't think that 704 votes counts as a ringing endorsement, in anyone's book. It appears to me that the only reason that Britcliffe managed to bite, kick and claw his way to victory in this election is because Bill Greene split the vote. Had it been a straight face-to-face contest Gayle would easily have walked away with the seat. But, I suppose that is the nature of local politics and there is nothing as respectable as an old abuse.

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I think the parallel drawn between Graham Jones and John Prescott was ludicrous. John Prescott has Two Jags because we, the taxpayer fund him.....Graham Jones has two houses that he funded himself and I think it is nobody's business but his what he spends his money on........and before you label me a Labour crony....think again, I have no political affiliations with any party......I vote for who I think can best do the job.
If the letter in the Observer is not a personal attack then I don't know what is.
As I say it is a prime example of the pot calling the kettle.

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Well put Margaret - I think it would be hard to find a more personal attack - maybe Jaysay will tell us what he would write if he was making a personal attack on anyone.

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Another reason that may have helped Councillor Britcliffe back into his seat is the fact that the Labour Party suffered some pretty serious scandals in the run up to the local elections.....I am sure this daunted quite a few people.
Some people vote for the party and not the person.....I suppose that is sensible if it is a national election....but it doesn't necessarily make the best sense in local elections.

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If there is one thing you can depend on ,through thick or thin, it is the Tory vote. 90% of the Tory support is not swayed by who would be the best candidate but a driving compelsion to do thier duty.

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That was definitely a factor, everyone who objected to Labour objected because of national issues. The week before Prescott had been shown to be an adulterer and there were a lot of people still unhappy about the war. And, despite me saying that the Conservative party also voted for the war they still blamed Blair. I don't think it made anyone vote Conservative instead of Labour but I do think it kept a few people away from the polling station on the day.

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The Government introduced powers of licensing under the 2004 Housing Act. The officers at HBC were against licensing of landlords. They were supported by the Conservatives. Reasons such as no money, can't do it, were put forward as main objectives, though I think it just wasn't a priority.

With this lack of willing I did decide to put the issue on the Councils Overview and Scrutiny timetable and organised myself, reports from another authority (Salford) to be sent to challange this entrenched HBC view with hard facts. Whilst everyone at O&S accepted the Salford report as good, no one did anything about it afterwards. The powers were not influenced.

Not to be defeated, I have now set up a Neighbourhood Management Board consisting of residents and councillors in Peel & Barnfield and pushed for ELEVATE monies. We have had 3 meetings now and the residents are 100% behind licensing. In my view if we had a Labour Council, implementation would have been swifter, less costly, less bureaucractic and more efficient, and covered other parts of the Borough.

ELEVATE have said they will fund P&B NM Board. We are pushing hard for a draconian system, similar to Salford's but tougher/tighter still. This will be the start of a rolling programme and I hope all of Peel will be covered.

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Is this a joke or not? :p

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I could agree with this normaly BUT in the case of 2006 local elections the national labour party held serious 'punch and judy' campagins such as Dave the Cameleon... Local elections should be about local issues, labour were the ones bringing national party leaders in to it... they proberbly would have done better if they had left that alone.

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Which is entirely what I was saying...local elections...local issues. Unfortunately some people find it difficult to differentiate between local politics and national politics. Whatever you say, there is firm evidence to confirm that local people were sidetracked by the scandals that happened in the run up to the local elections. I'm sure that the 'meddling' that the national parties did....I suppose, to drum up interest...did more harm than good.

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Good man Graham, I used to live in a privately rented house, we later moved to a Housing Association one before we bought our own. The difference between private rented and Association was amazing. We went from a damp 2 bed terrace too close to Chav1 for comfort, to a 3 bed, 3 or 4 year old end town house in Clayton with a good sized secure garden for the children to play in for less rent. I must say that we were with a proper Housing Association and not one of these Council break aways like Hyndburn Homes. It looks like Hyndburn Homes is still mainly run by the same people before the split from the Council so I suspect all the same mis-management issues will remain unchecked as before.

graham please don't abbreviate these group and board name thingies, it makes it hard for us not in the know to understand who or what you mean.

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I'm sure it was a joke for Maggie, Cecil, Norman,and all the cabinet at the time.. but no joke for the 3 and half million people put on the dole.. some of us do remember Cfyr.. aint your dad told you?

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I never knew you used to live near Pansy Street.:eek: :D

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the silence is deafening maybe cos its indefensible.:D

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Jaysay does appear to have problem with telling us what he would write in a personal attack

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I've had a pm from Jaysay who doesn't want to go public with some of the things I accused him off, and that's certainly his right, and I understand better what he meant.

I'm still angry that he thinks some of the comments made about Peter Britcliffe on Accy Web were 'vile', and would still like to see one quoted by him so we could discuss it.

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I didn't realise you were refering to then.

I was only a baby during the late Thatcher years and Major, but I have read about the years quite a lot, both from biased (both sides) and unbiased points of view.
Yes, the way Thatcher went about things made many people unemployed, but the previous socialist government had wrecked the economy, was keeping millions of people in work when there was no profit to be made. How are you supposed to sustain millions of workers who are a burden on your ecnonomy because your throwing money at them when you could get coal etc cheaper elsewhere?
If it wasn't for Thatcher we wouldnt be where we are now I personaly believe. Industry has declined around the globe never mind just the UK. The service sector has boomed since the 1980's and nobody can say that a heck of a lot of us are better off because of the Thatcher years and Blair years who thank god ensured that we proberbly won't have another socialist government again, I'm pleased he didn't do a U-turn on Thatcherism.

Now I give her a lot of praise, but of course she did stupid things. By the end of her term she introduced the poll tax, which I completly don't agree with. It's enevitable that people will be richer than others, and theres no reason why the poorer people have to suffer, we all have the same rights regardless of income. Richer people should have to pay more money, it's not that they won't miss the money, they will just suffer a LOT less than taking it from poorer people, common sense :p.

At the end of the day, our move out of industry had to happen.

Norman Lamont was nothing more than a victem of time. You should really blame Goldman Sachs for the black wednesday affair :p

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At what point did the local Labour Party bring in national issues?

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I never said they did. The national party brought in national issues, in the days coming up to the local elections. I know the local Labour Party fight local issues, but you can't blame people for listening to the national Labour party, since they're the same party, and it was done to try and stop people voting Conservative in the local elections..

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In answer to your first statement, industry hasn't declined around the world, it's increased. It's just that it's moved from here to other parts of the globe.

We've gone from being one of the worlds great industrial nation to being a servicable one. Even the biggest call centres are now realising that they can employ workers cheaper in the far east, just as the industrialists did after years of Thatcherism. Free market economy equals cheapest labour, which wasn't here.

Your second statement shows to me that basically you have a good heart, and will one day realise that what you believe in isn't conservatism but socialism, or at the very least liberalism.;)

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Sorry I should have worded it better, what I ment to say was the need for humans in industry has declined around the world.

I know that the service sector (well parts of it anyway, like call centers as you mention) is a lot cheaper to run overseas in places like india.. but I have faith in the service sector because even things like call centers, might be cheaper, but they are not producing a better quality of service. Some companies even advertise the fact that they have UK only call centers because half the time the overseas call centers get it wrong, or you can't understand what they're saying, and people don't want that when they're dealing with money and credit cards..
I'm not saying call centers in the UK don't get it wrong a lot ('cause they do) but I find it easier if its a UK call center and i'm not the only one. :p

As for socialism, I can't ever see that happening :p, i'm just not a far right. I believe that you can use Conservative ideologies to work for everyone not just the rich. I am strongly against just giving people money, but helping people help themselves, now thats something that encourages motivation, you can bring people out of deprivation by helping them help themselves. :D

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I know this is thread drift but CYFR...

I am not a fan of old labour at all but I do feel there was more to it than blaming Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan.

McMillan's (Tory) economic outlook was similar to Wilsons (Lab) in it's primary aim was high employment, something voters in the 60's wanted from governments. The union movement gained strength from both parties in power during that period.

Heath (Tory) in 70 tried but failed to manage the economy and realign the social contract (workers/unions and business) more in favour of business. Thats when Britain had the 3 day week, power cuts and strikes (under the Tories).

Wilson was re-elected in 74 but the 60's politics had been replaced by 70's realism. In 76 Wilson resigned and the social contract was over. Callaghan introduced monatarism in 76, (not Thatcher in 79) ending the social contract, curbing union power, imposing wage restraint, controlled the money supply resulting in high unemployment and which resulted in the waves on industrial action you see nostalgically in old news film.

There is a strong argument that the Callaghan government had the balance right (between fiscal and monetary policy) and that Thatcher just carried on Callaghans economic policy but to an extreme (she did). However the mood of the country wasn't for Labour's tougher economic monetarist policies exemplified in the Satchi much vaunted poster; 'Labour isn't working' (with a photo of long line of unemployed). The Thatcher victory was ironic as we ended up with 5million unemployed but the same policies, just more extreme.

To suggest that Thatcher cured Britains ill's is just a convenient rewrite. And to suggest Britain isnt the 'sick man of europe' now thanks to Thatcher (and knock the French and Germans) is double think. You can't on the one hand reject everything French or German and say we have got it right in Britain with low unemployment, restrictived union legislation, free markets, control of money supply, and then blame Blair for Britain supposedly now being 'sick under Labour'.

Besides, French people and German people (without a dose of Thatcherism) still maintain a higher standard of living than British people, so where's does that leave the argument?

One irony is political yo-yoing going on. McMillans fiscal, pro union, high emloyment, Tory govt tells us "we have never had it so good" Callaghans Labour, monetist, high unemmployment, anti union govt and we are told 'we have never had it so bad'. And now Cameron is coming back to no tax cuts and better investment in public services as a priority.

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I havn't quoted some things because well, they are facts and i'm not going to debate facts with you hehe. :p

The mood of labour wasn't for it's ties with the trade Unions. People were fed up of being controled by them, and thats the reason that Thatcher won an even greater majority, because Michael Foot's left wing manifesto was the 'longest suicide note in history'.
It dosn't matter if Callaghans government started to turn against Unions, Labour were still tared as Union loving because thats how they'd been for ages. The same way that Conservatives have been tared with thatcherism long after the Conservatives got rid of her..

I'm not saying that the past Conservatives governments before Thatcher were any better because they didn't really try and U-turn the Labour governments policies.

I really don't know the history of France well enough to debate it with you, but the germans have proportional representation, extream policy, be it right or left wing will be hard to get pased... so socialism wasn't such a problem with the economy and such, as it was here, so you can't really argue that they have a better standard of living without thatcher, when the UK and Germany were never on the same starting block.

Cameron said he wanted to split a good economy between tax cuts and public services, but hes indicated that he won't be promising tax cuts in his manifesto, because that would be silly, as he dosn't know what the economy will be like whenever the next election is.

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Originally Posted by Cyfr
'Yes, the way Thatcher went about things made many people unemployed, but the previous socialist government had wrecked the economy, was keeping millions of people in work when there was no profit to be made. How are you supposed to sustain millions of workers who are a burden on your ecnonomy because your throwing money at them when you could get coal etc cheaper elsewhere?'

I know you mean well, but maybe some day you will made unemployed, because it is cheaper to employ someone in another country, or anyone of a number of econmic issues. Then you will understand that it is no consolation that you losing your job makes the company more profitable or viable. I was made redundant twice during the Thatcher/Major years - the first time in 1984 I applied for lots of jobs, only to fell the same sense of rejection every time I received a 'sorry you are not suitable' letter. It was 18 months before I managed to get new permanent job, I can't even begin to describe the feelings of worthlessness that I endured in that time.
The 2nd time I was made redundant in 1996, I decided that as I had 10 years left to work, I would 'Temp' via an accountancy agency, so at least for the last 10 years of my working life, I would be in charge of my life. I wouldn't have an employer telling me when I could have my holidays, or that I had to work overtime etc. I knew I probably wouldn't have a job the next week, but at least I knew no one could make me redundant again. As things turned out I oly didn't work for about 20eeks in the 10 years - and this wasn't consecuatively.
It might seem glib to say there were 5 million unemployed, but remember that is 5 million people who felt their world had ended - they had families to feed and clothe, mortgages to pay, just think of the worries they had.
In fact we are still reaping the after effects of mass unemployment - not everyone was fortunate to get another job that utilised their skills to the full. Also lots of people now in their 30's who left school in the Thatcher /Major era were forced to take jobs for which they were far to overqualified academically, because there was only the YTS on £26.00 a week. They quite often had to get any job going because their families couldn't afford for them not to be working.
As for getting coal cheaper elsewhere, what about the pending crisis we now have with gas. Also selling off the utility companies, ment that they were more interested in making profits for shareholders, and giving massive bonuses to directors than serving their customers. High fuel prices, especially effect the people on the lowest incomes.

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Another downside of those years was that some people found that they could live quite well on benefits and brought up children who then had no 'work ethic'.......a sad state of affairs. Then the children grew up and knew how to work the system. I'm not saying that all who claim benefits are scroungers....but many are because they know no different.