A tax on lightbulbs.
 

It was reported in the press recently that Gordon Brown is considering a tax on light bulbs. Apparently he wants to put up the price of ordinary light bulbs to nearer that of the low energy type bulbs. he says that this is to encourage people to use the low energy ones in a bid to combat global warming, and to reduce th amount of energy that people use.

I think it would be more credible if the government were to subsidise the price of low energy light bulbs if they really want people to cut down on the consumption of energy.
I maybe a cynical old bird, but is there anyone else out there who feels that the chancellor is having another dip into my purse?

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

I think that is what I was getting at Bernard.......if there is an option where the Govt can fleece us of some more cash, then that appears to be the option that is taken.
It might have something to do with energy consumption, but don't the government realise that with the great hike in bills that we have seen recently, that most of us are doing our level best to use less energy.

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Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

I don't think it has anything to do with global warming....or getting us to reduce our consumption of energy....I just think it is an excuse to take more ££££££s off the electorate....cynical.I know!

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

two energy saving light bulbs cost me 2 quid on bogof, and they last about two years when on 24/7 like this one is.

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There is already a tax on light bulbs – its called VAT.

I wonder if anyone has done an energy study on these low energy light bulbs? The cost of energy to make one that is. Plus the extra materials. It has to be more than a simple ordinary bulb. So my question is do they really save on electrical energy overall?

Some time back, being a pensioner, I received two free 60 watts low energy bulbs from some organisation or other with a coupon to send for two more.

I don’t know about anyone else but I have a small lamp on top of my telly to soften the glare from the screen when I’m watching so I put one of these low energy bulbs in the lamp when the normal 60 watts bulb gave up the ghost. Even if I’m not watching telly I still have it on from dusk onwards.

These new fangled bulbs are supposed to give off the same amount of light that a normal bulb does but it uses less electricity. I did say supposed to but they don’t.

How do I know?

Well it’s like this. I have a solar powered calculator that works quite well with the only light source being my telly lamp. Ignore the computer screen because that is always behind the calculator when I use it. Yet with the new bulb in place it wouldn’t work because there wasn’t enough light. I had to move the calculator a couple of feet closer to the light to get it to work. Ergo the new bulbs do not give off the same amount of light as a normal bulb of the same wattage. It may use less electricity but part of the reason has to be that it doesn’t give off the same amount of light. Are we being conned – again?

If this government really wants to cut electrical consumption there is no better place to start than the electrified railways. Use Diesel locomotives using bio fuel to pull the carriages instead. Underground and the Channel Tunnel trains would have to be exempt. Now that would save on electricity.

I am now going to help with the country’s energy needs by switching off my computer, the wireless and the telly lamp and go to bed. ‘night all!

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

They use 4 times as much energy to make.
The calculator doesn't work because it's a different sort of light, different wavelength. They give of more light, last longer and on average a low energy lamp will save you 131 pounds on your electricity bill over it's life. it will therefore reduce carbon emissions and green house gasses.
You can get low energy light bulbs for two quid, and two for two quid if morrisons has them on bogof.
Changing railway engines to use bio fuels would be megga expensive and as there isn't that many of them, wouldn't save as much as everyone changing to cfl's
What I do think though is that instead of a tax on normal bulbs, they should reduce or even zero rate cfl's.

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

I do wish Marg P. and my Mum wouldn't read the same paper.

I had her bending my ear about this tonight as well.:p

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its all over the internet forums rindy. It was on the other one down here a week ago. Seems to have stired up a right hornets nest, but the fact is people like the warming glow of a normal light bulb, a flourescent makes them look ill.

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I would question where a light is that needs to be on 24/7.

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Compact fluorescents are ok but they have drawbacks. You can't dim them. They look naff in many light fittings, if they will fit that is. They are not very good as outside light when it is very cold, they seem to struggle to warm up and give out they usual light level. The are not enviromentally friendly, they have to be treated as special waste and recycled correctly due to the fluorescent powder that coats the glass. I think they still contain a little mercury as well. Talking about recyling them, you can just through them in the bin but Whinny hill tip are "still waiting for the recycling container" when I asked.

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I have 3 boxes of the energy saving light bulbs all sizes i get them free if you have had any work done by Hyndburn homes then they send them you every now and again
so i will be starting a market stall soon

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We have some wall lights that will not take these light bulbs......I have a couple of the low energy lights in lamps around the place and the light does not seem as bright....much more muted.

I am forever going round turnoing off lights, but I can't get the ol feller to turnoff the TV at the switch....he always leaves it on 'Standby'....a real waste of energy if ever there was one.

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Oh, yes and maybe I should have made it clearer........I know that there is a tax on light bulbs......it will be an extra tax or a rise in the VAT.

And sorry Rindy.......I just find lots of reading in that paper...and puzzles....and health stuff.

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you can dim them, you just need the right dimmer.
Yes they do contain mercury and you are supposed to have them recycled, but the mercury is less than the murcury produced at the power station by not using them. I'd imagine the local council would have some sort of legal obligation to provide disposal facilities
they still take time to warm up yes, especially outside, but it's not as bad as it used to be.

MP what is this fitting that you can't get one for. Why can't you. ?

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

if they seem more muted then you've got a lower value than you should. 21 watts flourescent is about 100w incandescent.

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Oh MH it isn't the fitting...it is the size of the bulbs.......they are too big for the shades......even the small ones. My shades will only take the teardrop type bulbs.

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Yeah, until they do little fancy ones you can shove in a chandelier, they can keep them.

Ugly is the word.

Ok in lightshades where you can't see the bulb though.

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they do cancle lamps in flourescent but they're bout 6 quid each, I think b&Q do them

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

...but are they aesthetically pleasing?:p


Thanks, I'll check them out and give my verdict.

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Nope they are not. They look more like a b*** plug than a candle lamp. Then again you might like them ;)

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I hope to god you don't think a b*** plug is that shape, it'll be be going north for the winter :D

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No we're not being conned.
Normal lightbulbs give off all the visable light possible from the electromagnetic spectrum (the one where you shine a light through a prism and get the spectrum like this one the other side):
http://www.yorku.ca/eye/spectrum.gif
Energy saving ones give off parts of the visable spectrum, which makes no difference to the majority of people because they use lights to light up the house and we see no difference.
Obviously 'energy saving' lightbulbs do what they say, and hence use less energy, so no, your calculator isn't going to get the same energy going to it, because as the name says, theres less energy being used, so less energy being given out.

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You have to be a little careful in your assumptions of energy conservation. When a normal bulb uses energy it transfers it into both light and heat. the percentage of each I don't know but it is significantly biased towards heat!, likewise with a energy saver, there is light and heat although significantly less of the latter hence teh input requirement is much less.

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Much obliged for your brief science lesson Cyfr.

Visible light is indeed made up of various colours of light, which combined produce what we call white light. As you point out the full light spectrum can be seen by shining a beam of light through a prism or a raindrop or two to produce a rainbow.

I don’t know why I didn’t think of this earlier because I have the equipment and the ability to measure the current drawn by a normal 60 watts light bulb and the current drawn by a 60 watts low energy bulb. This would truly determine which was more energy efficient.

A 60 watts normal bulb draws 200mA at 230 volts.
A 60 watts energy efficient bulb draws 20mA at 230 volts. That is ten times less and is thus much more energy efficient because the energy being used is used to produce light and very little heat.

As entwisi points out the normal bulb produces an awful lot of heat as anyone who has tried to change a bulb that has just blown after being on for a few minutes will know to their cost. I have no idea what the temperature of the glass is but it is enough to inflict quite severe burns.

So the answer to the eternal question of “How many electricians does it take to change a light bulb?” the answer is three. One to grab the hot bulb and fall to the ground with third degree burns to his hand. One to administer first aid and send for the ambulance. One to get asbestos gloves and change the bulb.

The light that either bulb produces is in the visible spectrum and general purpose solar panels are activated by light in the visible spectrum be it in the red range or the blue or anything in between. So my calculator did indicate that a 60 watts energy efficient bulb does not give off quite so much light as a normal 60 watts bulb. The difference to the naked eye is barely noticeable, if at all, but instruments like a solar panel can ‘see’ the difference. My calculator will work in candlelight if I put it very close to the flame.

To get back to the topic, adding extra tax to light bulbs is just another scheme to extort more money out of the long suffering public and to try to force people into buying the energy efficient versions to replace the normal type.

If they really want people to change to the new type then the way to do it would be to have a scheme where we could return a normal bulb and get a new type for the price of the normal one or no more than half the cost of the new type. Obviously the sale of normal bulbs would have to be stopped.

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I like how you used a meter to measure milliamps and and a solar calculator to determine light output level. I suppose you did not have a lux meter to hand. :D

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I know that no home would be complete without a lux meter Neil but no I didn’t have one to hand.

I used to have a light meter in the days when cameras didn’t have built in exposure meters. But that has been long gone.

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

A 60 watts normal bulb draws 200mA at 230 volts.
A 60 watts energy efficient bulb draws 20mA at 230 volts
Thats impossible jambutty.
You meant the equivelent wattage energy saver lamp to 60w.
which is about 15w
It isn't actually a full spectrum of the incandecent, but the flourecent concentrates more on the blue spectrum , the incandescent on the red.
FACT is that most people don't swap because
They are more expensive
They can't get one to fit
They don't like the colour of the light, that is a normal lamp makes you feel healthy because it's a warmer colour, a glow. The flourescent is cold, people look pale and drawn.
People think the heat helps to heat the house

If tungsten fillament incandecscent lamps were invented today they would be banned straight away, because they are just about the most unefficent electrical product you can buy. look on the packaging and it's rated F or G
G for Global dissaster.

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I'll say again, if your getting less light with a cfl lamp than a 60w normal one then you must be using a 9w one instead of a 15w

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This thread has become ever so technical...but at least I am learning things that I didn't know before...thanks you clever chaps!

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Jambutty tries to confuse things MP, it's very simple, a flourescent gives out more light, a 21watt is equivelent to a 100watt.

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I am coming round to that idea now.........and yes my kitchen flourescent used to be low wattage but was just as bright......just a different sort of light.
I don't have it anymore.......I have those new fangled halogen spot bulbs......I haven't a clue whether they are more economical or not....except i haven't had to change one in over 5 years.......It is sod's law now that they are sure to blow!

Re: A tax on lightbulbs.
 

depends if they are low voltage of a transformer mp

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Oh Gosh I don't know.....i just know that I haven't had to change one of them since I had my kitchen updated and that must be 5 or 6 years ago.

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Does it? Why?

No Margaret they are not more economical. Each one could be 10w or 20w or even 50w. I have 6 50w ones in our kitchen, that is 300w in total. I would probably get a better and more even light if I had 1 or maybe 2 70w florescents.

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I have four low wattage ones over my work tops and three 50 watts in the ceiling.....it is only a small kitchen and in the main I use the counter top lights. I have two large picture windows so except in Winter the kitchen is probably the lightest room in the house.

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lol just realised what I said, no they aren't more economical than a flourescent.
doh @ me and thanks neil

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So that will be either 190w is the counter ones are 10w or 230w if they are 20w. You are single handedly bringing the end of the world closer with that lot :D :D :D

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I wouldn't bother mp don't start changing ceilling fittings. dunno if neil will agree but it's not wirth the hasle.

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I am very sure that there are a lot more folk out there who are helping me, seeing as this was a very popular design of kitchen....and as I said I don't use them very much except in winter....the reason for having two large picture windows in the kitchen was to let in more natural light and to open up what is a small kitchen. I certainly don't plan to change them at the moment.

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I like my kitchen, just the way it is........... I waited a long long time to get it, and have no plans to change it in the forseeable future.

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Only pulling your leg Margaret. Those lamps are very popular, florescents are horrible looking things and have no place in your home. What we need is investment into cheap enviromentally friendly power sources so we can use as much electricity as we want. Stuff all this save and switch of rubbish, just make more and more green power for us all.

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On a side note, we bought some 'extra value' lightbulbs, and well, my friend turned the light on yesterday, to have it explode and come crashing down upon me! Scared me to death as it was pitch black so could just see red hot burning fragments falling to me :p

I should have really replaced it though, as the other bulb did exactly the same last week.

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ahh energy saving lighbulbs ...

yup they take that long to warm up and get to full brightness that by the time they are at full brightness you dont need the light on anymore

when does the tax on air come into effect as i think its the only thing left that isnt taxed and do asthmatics get reduced rates , will low income familys get put on card meters for air and how much emergency air will be given to last until payday should credit on the meter run out , where will these meters be installed :eek:

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dunno chav but there's a lack of air here today so i'm not paying. wish it would rain

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That will cost you millons :p

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Yes Neil, I totally agree.....if the government were to fund grants to have solar panels put onto houses(just and example) I think they would be taken more seriously.
I read that it actually costs more to use recycled glass and paper than it does to make new from scratch...so the only saving is that the items do not go for landfill.

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it costs more , but it's more friendly to the environment. ALL glass should be recycled, no exception, I do feel strongly about that and think people should be fined for throwing glass in the dustbin.

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I have been recycling newspaper since the 80's.....glass and tins...well i was taking those to the recycle point at Tesco when it first started.......now the council do the collections I recycle everything......have separate bins in the garage.
I refuse plastic bags most of the time, preferring to use cloth bags......will only accept a plastic bag if I have filled my cloth bags. Shop assistants do look at me like I am some kind of nutter......but hey, it doesn't matter what they think.

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And we don't deplete natural resources to make more!

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Yes that is true but do we have any figures on when we would run out of glass etc.
I must admit that glass is the only thing we don't recycle. I informed HBC that when they provide a suitable container that my little ones can't get at and hurt/cut themselves with that I will recycle glass. Until then it goes in my big bin where they cant get at.

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but we still create greenhouse gases by using the recycled stuff.

It gets so compicated.....there was a story on TV that suggested that despite the fact that we think of trees as being good, and removing CO2.....that the trees are actually producing CO2 and adding to the greenhouse effect.
While I do agree that recycling has to be done.........I sometimes feel that we are bombarded with conflicting information that makes choices difficult.

It is the same with food....there will be a study that tells us we should eat more of one foodstuff as it will protect against Cancer, heart disease, whatever.....then a couple of weeks later a new survey will find that such and such is not healthy after all. I'm confused!

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I'm as confused as you are Margaret. I don't know enough about it to wade in most of the time.

All I kind of think is that you've got to do something as opposed to doing nothing - that's more or less why I recycle.

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It takes more money to recycle but it takes more energy to produce new glass. Make a shelf above your bin to store the box on. I went to a house the other day and they did this, frame around the bin with a trellis door to hide it, green bin at the side of thatand a shelf above bove for the two boxes. very neet and no kids can get to them.

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If I remember my O level biology correctly, plants(and trees) remove CO2 and create O2 when they are in sunlight. When the light level drops below a set amount the process is reversed i.e. they use O2 and create CO2. This was the reason why they say its bad to keep plants in a bedroom.

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Good memory entwisi. However the overall effect is that they absorb more CO2 than they create.

Granted that we have to find some other way to dispose our rubbish other than in landfill but our current ways are not cost effective or even efficient. The only material that we should re-cycle is glass, metal and vegetable matter into compost, burn the rest.

The technology is available to burn everything, use the heat to either heat buildings or produce electricity and control the CO2 emissions. There is even a rig out at sea that is pumping CO2 underground.

But since when did the powers that be think a scheme through before implementing it?

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Cheeky monkey! :D

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The co2 is released again when the plant dies, so they only really remove it temporarily..