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Tinkerbelle 27-09-2006 15:47
DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Today my daughter took part in a science exhibition in school. Part of the exhibition was a talk by the community beat manager PC Mick Walsh. He was showing the kids how DNA samples were taken and each child gave a sample. Now, PC Walsh said the samples would be thrown away afterwards BUT it got me thinking, it would be a good idea mass screening of the kids whilst in school in a similar sort of way and actually keep them on record. The crimes that could be solved in years to come would be phenomenal. Of course parents would have to consent but I can't see why any parents would object. What do you lot think?

garinda 27-09-2006 15:53
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
I've thought similar thoughts.

Why aren't babies DNA samples taken at birth?

Not much use now, but in future it would be a great help if there was a national data base with everyone on. It would give a much more accurate process than relying on dental records for certain cases.

Much more useful than bloody i-d cards.

WillowTheWhisp 27-09-2006 15:54
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
I can't immediately think of any reason to object.

Tinkerbelle 27-09-2006 15:57
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
The only problem I can see is that it's to logical for our Government to carry out.

andrewb 27-09-2006 16:03
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
You can't see any reason to object??

How about our liberties. Whos to say some future government might use thgat database for its own needs. They could start compiling other information along with DNA. Do you really want some mass database that the government can use/sell to private companies?

garinda 27-09-2006 16:09
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
In fact instead of wasting money on i-d cards that can be forged, I think it would be a good idea if mass screening was introduced now.


Just think of all the benefits if everyone was on a national data base, and everyone who entered the UK was too. Abandoned babies could be traced, rapists could be named and hopefully caught quicker, even paternity cases could be dealt with more quickly.

I don't think our civil rights would be infringed. The only people who would object would be the criminals and the heedless men who don't want to pay for thei own offspring.

garinda 27-09-2006 16:13
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
You can't see any reason to object??

How about our liberties. Whos to say some future government might use thgat database for its own needs. They could start compiling other information along with DNA. Do you really want some mass database that the government can use/sell to private companies?
I can see an argument that i-d cards may infringe civil liberties, but who besides those with something to hide could possibily complain?

I bet the relatives of the victims of 9/11, many of who will never be identified, wished they had it, so they could at least put a few shards of bones in a grave they could visit.

accymel 27-09-2006 16:15
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
In fact instead of wasting money on i-d cards that can be forged, I think it would be a good idea if mass screening was introduced now.


Just think of all the benefits if everyone was on a national data base, and everyone who entered the UK was too. Abandoned babies could be traced, rapists could be named and hopefully caught quicker, even paternity cases could be dealt with more quickly.

I don't think our civil rights would be infringed. The only people who would object would be the criminals and the heedless men who don't want to pay for thei own offspring.

Here here!!!!!!!!!!! i totally agree:D

Tinkerbelle 27-09-2006 16:15
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Sorry Cyfr but I think the benefits of mass screening, for reasons such as the ones Rind has pointed out, far out-weigh any need to be protected from any under-handedness trick our Government might pull.

Less 27-09-2006 16:18
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
You can't see any reason to object??

Whos to say some future government might use thgat database for its own needs. They could start compiling other information along with DNA. Do you really want some mass database that the government can use/sell to private companies?
So you reckon the Conservatives will get in then do you?
:D

SPUGGIE J 27-09-2006 16:30
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
They wouldnt do it because on the cost of making the profiles. Then as stated there are those that would shout about liberties. If all kids profiles being on file it would have the benifit not just of ID'ing a criminal, identify a remains as Rindy said and would save a lot of hassle in disputed paternaty cases. If they want a copy on file of my DNA they can have it and I do not object to ID cards either I have nothing to hide. Some may see it as BIG BROTHER but the positives do outweigh the negatives. Criminals would think twice if their DNA record was on file because at the end of the day it only takes a minor error on a criminals part to leave DNA behind.

AccyJay 27-09-2006 16:32
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerbelle
Of course parents would have to consent but I can't see why any parents would object. What do you lot think?
Wouldn't the individual also have to give consent on reaching the age of 18? Back to sqaure 1.

Tinkerbelle 27-09-2006 16:43
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AccyJay
Wouldn't the individual also have to give consent on reaching the age of 18? Back to sqaure 1.
That's true, to legislate it would have to be compulsory without parental consent, best with Rinds idea do screen them as babies.

Neil 27-09-2006 17:10
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
What fun you could have comparing babies DNA with daddies to see if mummy has been a naughty girl :D

garinda 27-09-2006 17:43
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
What fun you could have comparing babies DNA with daddies to see if mummy has been a naughty girl :D
Just because your little Emily is growing into a beautiful blond child, don't start blaming me.;)

andrewb 27-09-2006 18:48
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda


Just think of all the benefits if everyone was on a national data base, and everyone who entered the UK was too. Abandoned babies could be traced, rapists could be named and hopefully caught quicker, even paternity cases could be dealt with more quickly.

I don't think our civil rights would be infringed. The only people who would object would be the criminals and the heedless men who don't want to pay for thei own offspring.
Im sorry but i really object to it. If I handed in my DNA now and if they could run it against ah existing database of unsolved crimes im sure they wouldn't find anything, and yet im completly against this being put in to action.

If you use the logic of 'only people against it are those who have commited crimes' I can quite easily apply it to the following:

Chipping everyone so you know where they are 100% of the time. Having video cameras in everyones house. Of course, nothing will be done unless you break the law, and then you deserve it... but thats really not at all the point. I certainly would not like my privacy infringed in such a way, and yet it uses the same basic argument.

Ps. Im not *completly* disagreeing with the DNA Database PLAN. But I am disagreeing because the government or somebody else could easily misuse such a mass database.

Neil 27-09-2006 19:04
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
Im sorry but i really object to it. If I handed in my DNA now and if they could run it against ah existing database of unsolved crimes im sure they wouldn't find anything, and yet im completly against this being put in to action.
I bet you would think differently if someone had mutilated your wifes corpse after sexually assaulting and murdering her.

SPUGGIE J 27-09-2006 19:06
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I bet you would think differently if someone had mutilated your wifes corpse after sexually assaulting and murdering her.
That no doubt would be a different matter. Then the perp could argue exactly the same as to why they shouldnt give DNA.

garinda 27-09-2006 23:13
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
Im sorry but i really object to it. If I handed in my DNA now and if they could run it against ah existing database of unsolved crimes im sure they wouldn't find anything, and yet im completly against this being put in to action.

If you use the logic of 'only people against it are those who have commited crimes' I can quite easily apply it to the following:

Chipping everyone so you know where they are 100% of the time. Having video cameras in everyones house. Of course, nothing will be done unless you break the law, and then you deserve it... but thats really not at all the point. I certainly would not like my privacy infringed in such a way, and yet it uses the same basic argument.

Ps. Im not *completly* disagreeing with the DNA Database PLAN. But I am disagreeing because the government or somebody else could easily misuse such a mass database.

No, still totally disagree with you.

As the resident wooly liberal on here, and the first to bang on about the errosion of civil liberties, a national data base of DNA for everyone in the country can only be for the good.

What are your fears about its possible missuse? You don't really say, just talk about CCTV in everyone's home, which is a little bit of an hysterical reaction if you ask me.

By the way, from lots of things you've posted about your views on differing subjects on here, you won't be a Conservative for much longer. I'm not being patronisinmg by saying that, just that you are way to sensitive and caring.;)

junetta 28-09-2006 00:48
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
This is totally out of order. I worked for the Police for thirteen years and remember the whole DNA thingy being set up. Parents have to consent and a solicitor should be present. The Police cannot authorize a test unless a crime has been committed.

Go and complain, your children don't need this.

mani 28-09-2006 02:31
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
there's always pro's and con's to this

and the biggest one is the scope for error. there wud b too much on risk if there was an error. ithe crb confuses ppl on mere dob and name details if one of these went to the wrong person then the results wud b damaging. ppl like garinda wud b claimin to b parents of kids they dont even know *L*

2ndly its the whole big brother thing.

and finally whats to say a lil corrupt guy *like me* workin for the dna wudnt line his own back pockets to sell the dna to some company wanting to clone certain people?

andrewb 28-09-2006 06:23
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Mani hit the nail on the head. Cloning, corruption, errors, theft. Perhaps the current government would not do anything funny, but you have absolutly NO idea who will be in power in 10/20/30 years time and I dont want some private company mining my data any more than they already do.

This is not just a complaint about DNA, but whats to stop them compiling other stuff in and profiling us?

ps. I'll always be a liberal conservative, at least until I become old and grumpy then i'll become a proper one ;)

garinda 28-09-2006 09:04
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Unless you live in a glass box in total isolation, we are profiled everyday. If you have a bank account, a credit card etc. there are people monitering your spending habits, movement etc., so what?

I really can see very little negatives to this, and plenty of positives. I'm afarid we'll have to agree to disagree.

Neil 28-09-2006 13:54
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by junetta
Go and complain, your children don't need this.
I think you misunderstood the reason for this thread. No one has had their DNA tested. It was just an example of how samples are taken.

Your reply is a perfect example of how many people half understand something and then jump to the wrong conclusion. This is not an attack on you in any way Junetta, just pointing out that we all need to understand the facts before saying if something is right or wrong.

Neil 28-09-2006 13:58
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani
and finally whats to say a lil corrupt guy *like me* workin for the dna wudnt line his own back pockets to sell the dna to some company wanting to clone certain people?
Again more missunderstood info. How can you clone a human into another one from a database record of DNA. This is not Star Trek, cloning requires the actual cells from the donar.

garinda 28-09-2006 14:00
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Again more missunderstood info. How can you clone a human into another one from a database record of DNA. This is not Star Trek, cloning requires the actual cells from the donar.

So you can't clone a dinosaur from a bit of DNA from a bone in Blackburn Museum?


Damn, that's my nephews Christmas present back to the drawing board then.:D

Neil 28-09-2006 14:03
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
So you can't clone a dinosaur from a bit of DNA from a bone in Blackburn Museum?
You might be able to because you have the bone (erm I wish I hadn't said that) itself and not just computer record of the DNA.

SPUGGIE J 28-09-2006 15:41
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
You might be able to because you have the bone (erm I wish I hadn't said that) itself and not just computer record of the DNA.
A Jurrassic Park is to open on the moors above Ossy!! :eek: :eek:

It would depend if it was actual bone with marrow or wether it was a mineralised fossil. Mind you can you imagine the science classes at school if you could recreate dinasours they wouldnt bunk of then.

jambutty 28-09-2006 18:52
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Nice can of worms Tinkerbelle.

It would appear that most contributors to this thread favour a DNA database for everybody and some advocate taking a sample at birth. They counter objections to a DNA database with the ubiquitous “If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear” and it would help to catch criminals. It would also help to trace wayward fathers, rapists and help to solve paternity cases. By the way there are also wayward mothers.

But can we just put this into some sort of perspective? What percentage of the population of the UK are convicted, known or suspected criminals? At just 1% that would be around 600,000 people. Out of those 600,000 how many have been convicted on DNA evidence alone? I would suggest that not very many. How many bodies are found in a year with no clue to the identity? DNA would be useful in such cases but should the whole population be screened to establish the identity of just a few people? How many babies are abandoned each year? Are there that many rapists, wayward fathers or paternity suits to warrant mass DNA screening? I accept that just one rape is one rape too many but should the whole of the population have to have their civil rights infringed for the sake of a tiny percentage of the population.

So some 60 million people would be, as ‘The Prisoner’ might have uttered, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed and numbered for the sake of less than 1% of the population. That is a Draconian measure too far.
Quote:
I can see an argument that i-d cards may infringe civil liberties, but who besides those with something to hide could possibily complain?
A DNA profile is as accurate an ID as you can get these days garinda so if you accept that ID cards may infringe civil liberties then it follows that so does a DNA profile. I’m not a criminal or a heedless man garinda and I object to a DNA database of every living person in this land. Or because I object does that make me a criminal or a heedless man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I think you misunderstood the reason for this thread. No one has had their DNA tested. It was just an example of how samples are taken.

Your reply is a perfect example of how many people half understand something and then jump to the wrong conclusion. This is not an attack on you in any way Junetta, just pointing out that we all need to understand the facts before saying if something is right or wrong.
Pardon me Neil but the opening post stated a fact and then offered an opinion on that fact. The opinion being that Tinkerbelle thought that it would be a good idea to DNA screen school children and then asked, “What do you lot think?” Having offered an opinion and asked a question surely members have a right to reply?

No computer database is safe from prying eyes if they are determined enough and Insurance companies would relish the thought of getting a DNA profile on everybody. “Sorry Mr Bloggs we can’t insure you. Your DNA profile suggest that you have a propensity to having a heart attack before you are 60.” Or “Cancer is waiting for you.”

Or taking it even further down the Big Brother road – no Mr Jones you cannot marry Miss Green because your DNA profile suggest that any offspring might be *!!**????.

If there is to be a national DNA database it should be limited to convicted criminals and volunteers only.

Slowly and ever so surely we are staggering down the road to a total control of the people by the government, industry and commerce. A national DNA database is just the start.

The other day whilst at the checkout in Asda, Blackburn, as I handed over the money I was asked for my postcode.
“Why” I queried.
The checkout girl couldn’t tell me other than she had to ask each person for their postcode.
“Sorry but I do not want to tell you” I replied, took my change and strolled out.

Believe it or not I get phishing phone calls now. Can you tell me if it is Mr so and so who lives at xx? No prizes for guessing what my answer is. A polite answer I might add.

Neil 28-09-2006 20:03
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty
If there is to be a national DNA database it should be limited to convicted criminals and volunteers only.
That would be of very limited use wouldn't it?

jambutty 28-09-2006 20:59
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Yes it would Neil but most criminals re-offend and those non criminals who want to can volunteer and those that don’t want their DNA in a national database can opt out.

Seems fair to me.

andrewb 28-09-2006 22:09
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty
Nice can of worms Tinkerbelle.

It would appear that most contributors to this thread favour a DNA database for everybody and some advocate taking a sample at birth. They counter objections to a DNA database with the ubiquitous “If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear” and it would help to catch criminals. It would also help to trace wayward fathers, rapists and help to solve paternity cases. By the way there are also wayward mothers.

But can we just put this into some sort of perspective? What percentage of the population of the UK are convicted, known or suspected criminals? At just 1% that would be around 600,000 people. Out of those 600,000 how many have been convicted on DNA evidence alone? I would suggest that not very many. How many bodies are found in a year with no clue to the identity? DNA would be useful in such cases but should the whole population be screened to establish the identity of just a few people? How many babies are abandoned each year? Are there that many rapists, wayward fathers or paternity suits to warrant mass DNA screening? I accept that just one rape is one rape too many but should the whole of the population have to have their civil rights infringed for the sake of a tiny percentage of the population.

So some 60 million people would be, as ‘The Prisoner’ might have uttered, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed and numbered for the sake of less than 1% of the population. That is a Draconian measure too far.
A DNA profile is as accurate an ID as you can get these days garinda so if you accept that ID cards may infringe civil liberties then it follows that so does a DNA profile. I’m not a criminal or a heedless man garinda and I object to a DNA database of every living person in this land. Or because I object does that make me a criminal or a heedless man?


Pardon me Neil but the opening post stated a fact and then offered an opinion on that fact. The opinion being that Tinkerbelle thought that it would be a good idea to DNA screen school children and then asked, “What do you lot think?” Having offered an opinion and asked a question surely members have a right to reply?

No computer database is safe from prying eyes if they are determined enough and Insurance companies would relish the thought of getting a DNA profile on everybody. “Sorry Mr Bloggs we can’t insure you. Your DNA profile suggest that you have a propensity to having a heart attack before you are 60.” Or “Cancer is waiting for you.”

Or taking it even further down the Big Brother road – no Mr Jones you cannot marry Miss Green because your DNA profile suggest that any offspring might be *!!**????.

If there is to be a national DNA database it should be limited to convicted criminals and volunteers only.

Slowly and ever so surely we are staggering down the road to a total control of the people by the government, industry and commerce. A national DNA database is just the start.

The other day whilst at the checkout in Asda, Blackburn, as I handed over the money I was asked for my postcode.
“Why” I queried.
The checkout girl couldn’t tell me other than she had to ask each person for their postcode.
“Sorry but I do not want to tell you” I replied, took my change and strolled out.

Believe it or not I get phishing phone calls now. Can you tell me if it is Mr so and so who lives at xx? No prizes for guessing what my answer is. A polite answer I might add.
Spot on, I tried to say a lot of this, but don't really have the time to make long posts anymore.. :p

Neil 28-09-2006 22:12
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty
Seems fair to me.
Seems stupid to me, I always assumed that you were an intelligent man. Seems I was wrong. Going by your thinking please can I opt out of having my car registration number being recorded, I am not a criminal and do not wish to volunteer to have it recorded.

garinda 28-09-2006 22:18
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
[Quote Jambutty]- By the way there are also wayward mothers.

Compared with wayward fathers, there is usually a clue as to who the babies mother is. It's usually belonging the nearest vagina. If it isn't, and the baby is not given to the right mother, a simple DNA test would soon rectify this.;)

garinda 28-09-2006 22:24
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
N.B. The man that raped a young woman in Billinge Woods in Blackburn ten years ago, was today found guilty and sentenced of that and another sex attack, all due to evidence provided by advances in DNA.

Don't talk to me about percentages of the population that may be convicted criminals. This one conviction is evidence to me that some evil bastards will be kept locked away from the public for at least a while.

Neil 28-09-2006 22:32
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
N.B. The man that raped a young woman in Billinge Woods in Blackburn ten years ago, was today found guilty and sentenced of that and another sex attack, all due to evidence provided by advances in DNA.
So because we didn't/don't have a DNA database another poor lady had to be subjected to that terrible ordeal. If such things had existed he would have been caught after his first offence.

garinda 28-09-2006 22:37
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
So because we didn't/don't have a DNA database another poor lady had to be subjected to that terrible ordeal. If such things had existed he would have been caught after his first offence.
Yup. A lot of these old cold cases are now being reopened because more arrested criminals are having their DNA tested against unsolved crimes. There was another case were a man was found guilty in Yorkshire last month on similar DNA evidence.

If the people who object had had their wives/mothers/sisters/girlfriends attacked because some sad inadequte was allowed to go on offending, because we don't have a national DNA data base which would quicken arrests, would they change their minds?

Tinkerbelle 28-09-2006 22:50
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty
I accept that just one rape is one rape too many but should the whole of the population have to have their civil rights infringed for the sake of a tiny percentage of the population.
It's a tiny percentage now because rape crimes very rarely get reported, if there was a national database of DNA maybe more victims of this crime would be willing to report it to the police, feeling more confident of a conviction.

garinda 28-09-2006 22:55
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
How the buggerin' hell are civil liberties being infringed?

No one has given me one acceptable valid reason yet, and I said earlier I would be the first one to bleat on about it if it did infringe significantly on our civil liberties.

Perhaps we should do away with all immigration visas and passports, because having to have one of those infringes on our precious civil liberties?

Tinkerbelle 28-09-2006 22:58
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
Yup. A lot of these old cold cases are now being reopened because more arrested criminals are having their DNA tested against unsolved crimes. There was another case were a man was found guilty in Yorkshire last month on similar DNA evidence.
That evil bastard Shaun Greenwood was convicted of raping that poor lass in her own home in Gt Harwood due to his DNA. He was originally arrested because he stole his 3rd victims mobile and used it which they traced back to him but his DNA connected him to his 2 previous rapes.

garinda 28-09-2006 23:05
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Dental records.

Medical records.

Bank account.

Credit card account.

Driving licence.

Store cards.

Passports.

Mobile phones.

CCTV.

We are already tracked nearly every minute of the day. I really don't see how having us all on a national data base for our DNA will make any difference to innocent people's lives, or infringe on our civil liberties.

If just one poor person is saved from being raped/murdered by some sick bastard, or one person with amnesia is reunited with a worried family, or one family is able to have a body to bury after some terrible terrorist attack...it is in my opinion worth it.

jambutty 29-09-2006 13:04
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Is there really a need to get personal Neil? But then that’s what some people do when they don’t have a coherent argument to put forward.

Your analogy of the car registration number is not valid because car number plates can be sold on to another owner. DNA cannot! In any case the registration of a car number plate to a vehicle and the owner of that vehicle is a legal requirement backed by the laws of the land. There is no legal requirement to submit yourself to give a DNA sample and long may it stay that way.

garinda – you and others, have your opinion about DNA databases and I accept that you are entitled to voice it and put forward your arguments justifying your opinion. Quoting individual cases out of a population of some 60 million doesn’t do a great deal to get the ‘opposition’ to change their viewpoint. In fact it could be seen as scraping the barrel in an attempt to justify your opinion on the issue.

But I, and others who object to a DNA database, are equally entitled to utter their views on the issue and ne’er the two shall agree. Thus I would suggest that we agree to disagree.

Neil 29-09-2006 13:15
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty
Is there really a need to get personal Neil?
I am sorry if diagreeing with your idea is too personal for you. Would you like me to come round and wrap you up in cotton wool?

garinda 29-09-2006 14:07
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambutty
garinda – you and others, have your opinion about DNA databases and I accept that you are entitled to voice it and put forward your arguments justifying your opinion. Quoting individual cases out of a population of some 60 million doesn’t do a great deal to get the ‘opposition’ to change their viewpoint. In fact it could be seen as scraping the barrel in an attempt to justify your opinion on the issue.

But I, and others who object to a DNA database, are equally entitled to utter their views on the issue and ne’er the two shall agree. Thus I would suggest that we agree to disagree.
You may accuse me of scraping the barrel, though I stand by my claim that if having a national DNA database stops just one person from being murdered and/or raped it is worth it, at least I gave an example to defend my point of view.

None of the people who think it would infringe our civil liberties, have given no example to illustrate how our liberties would be impeded.

WillowTheWhisp 29-09-2006 15:31
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
How the buggerin' hell are civil liberties being infringed?

Nicely put Rindy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkerbelle
It's a tiny percentage now because rape crimes very rarely get reported, if there was a national database of DNA maybe more victims of this crime would be willing to report it to the police, feeling more confident of a conviction.
And perhaps the percentage of criminals would rise as more are convicted. It's like saying there isn't much crime because we don't catch many crimnals.

Tinkerbelle 29-09-2006 15:37
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp


And perhaps the percentage of criminals would rise as more are convicted. It's like saying there isn't much crime because we don't catch many crimnals.
Yes, but wouldn't it look better on the Govenment if they could say that they were tackling the issue head on with a National DNA database, instead of hiding crime rates in fictitious statistics as they do now?

andrewb 29-09-2006 16:03
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
Dental records.

Medical records.

Bank account.

Credit card account.

Driving licence.

Store cards.

Passports.

Mobile phones.

CCTV.

We are already tracked nearly every minute of the day. I really don't see how having us all on a national data base for our DNA will make any difference to innocent people's lives, or infringe on our civil liberties.

If just one poor person is saved from being raped/murdered by some sick bastard, or one person with amnesia is reunited with a worried family, or one family is able to have a body to bury after some terrible terrorist attack...it is in my opinion worth it.
The majority of the things you have mentioned are optional though. You are talking about a mandatory DNA database.

garinda 29-09-2006 17:54
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
The majority of the things you have mentioned are optional though. You are talking about a mandatory DNA database.
Mandatory yes, but are you telling me you have none of the ways listed by which we are tracked?

Still waiting for a good example from one of you about how our civil liberties would be infringed?

andrewb 29-09-2006 18:02
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
I have medical records
Bank (building society) account
Mobile phone

Anyway.. it infringes them because I dont want to be forced to have my DNA on profile, or anything else they might want to put with it in the future.

garinda 29-09-2006 18:06
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
I have medical records
Bank (building society) account
Mobile phone

Anyway.. it infringes them because I dont want to be forced to have my DNA on profile, or anything else they might want to put with it in the future.
Thank you.

In my book not a very valid reason, because you don't want it, but thanks for trying.

Any other more illuminating reasons as to how civil liberties would be infringed by a national DNA database?

Neil 29-09-2006 18:07
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda
Still waiting for a good example from one of you about how our civil liberties would be infringed?
Don't hold your breath matey, they can't think of any. They put their collective heads together and all they could make was a shed ;)

garinda 29-09-2006 18:10
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Don't hold your breath matey, they can't think of any. The put their collective heads together and all they could make was a shed ;)
He doesn't like it. At least he's honest.

Jambutty has been deadly quiet as to the reason why civil liberties might be infringed.

If he doesn't answer soon I might be tempted to take a crafty DNA sample. I hope after all the mystery he isn't Jack the Ripper.:D

andrewb 29-09-2006 18:10
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Oh and of course theres the fact that if there was a huge DNA database then people would start planting DNA and being even more clever, hence rendering the database pointless. Example:

Quote:
The value of DNA evidence has to be seen in light of recent cases where criminals planted fake DNA samples at crime scenes. In one case, a criminal even planted fake DNA evidence in his own body: Dr. John Schneeberger of Canada raped one of his sedated patients in 1992 and left semen on her underwear. Police drew Schneeberger's blood and compared its DNA against the crime scene semen DNA on three occasions, never showing a match. It turned out that he had surgically inserted a Penrose Drain into his arm and filled it with foreign blood and anticoagulants.
Once cases like that start happening, how can you use DNA as reliable evidence..

garinda 29-09-2006 18:12
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
Oh and of course theres the fact that if there was a huge DNA database then people would start planting DNA and being even more clever, hence rendering the database pointless. Example:



Once cases like that start happening, how can you use DNA as reliable evidence..
Any evidence could be fraudulent. Its up to a jury of twelve people to decide on the probability of someones guilt or innocence.

garinda 29-09-2006 18:14
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
Oh and of course theres the fact that if there was a huge DNA database then people would start planting DNA and being even more clever, hence rendering the database pointless. Example:



Once cases like that start happening, how can you use DNA as reliable evidence..

....for the same reasons would you be against fingerprinting being used as evidence?

andrewb 29-09-2006 18:16
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
and hence I would be against a mandatory fingerprint database

andrewb 29-09-2006 18:20
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Oh and the cloning thing... only the dna information is needed, why would the cells be needed? Only the nucleus contains dna.

Would you really want that possibility that a government or private company in the future could clone a person..

garinda 29-09-2006 18:30
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
Would you really want that possibility that a government or private company in the future could clone a person..
Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

Infact I think you'd all be better off if you had more than one me.:D

SPUGGIE J 29-09-2006 18:43
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
Oh and the cloning thing... only the dna information is needed, why would the cells be needed? Only the nucleus contains dna.

Would you really want that possibility that a government or private company in the future could clone a person..
Because it could be classed as asexual reproduction. Its easier to copy the cell ameboa style than with just dna.

WillowTheWhisp 29-09-2006 18:55
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Hang on, we are talking about information, not little samples of DNA that the police can carry in their pockets and plop down at crime scenes to finger a suspect.

SPUGGIE J 29-09-2006 19:08
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp
Hang on, we are talking about information, not little samples of DNA that the police can carry in their pockets and plop down at crime scenes to finger a suspect.
Very possible but is it going to happen with todays safeguards?

andrewb 29-09-2006 19:29
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
What safeguards? Any parliament can remove anything any previous parliament put in place.

SPUGGIE J 29-09-2006 20:01
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyfr
What safeguards? Any parliament can remove anything any previous parliament put in place.
Well there goes my faith in the law. Now who would remove it Westminster or The Europratts???

jambutty 30-09-2006 12:10
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
When I posted my last post #42 I had no intention of taking any further part in this thread but your jibe in your post #52 warrants a response garinda.

The last two sentences in my last post #42 Neil and garinda read:
Quote:
But I, and others who object to a DNA database, are equally entitled to utter their views on the issue and ne’er the two shall agree. Thus I would suggest that we agree to disagree.

There is no point in continuing garinda mainly because you asked, “Still waiting for a good example from one of you about how our civil liberties would be infringed?” and when Cyfr offered a reason which you accepted as an honest reason your response was, “In my book not a very valid reason, because you don't want it, but thanks for trying.” So no matter how valid a reason might be put forward you will always come back with a dismissal. You seem to be so entrenched in your own opinion that no one else’s matters, as far as you are concerned.

Let me also point out that you want a DNA database and you gave some reasons to back up your choice yet when Cyfr does exactly the same except to say that he doesn’t want a DNA database his opinion is dismissed by you. I wasn’t aware that we had to kow tow to your opinions. Tugs forelock and demonstrates that I can still draw a long bow with either hand.

As WillowTheWhisp (I got it right this time) declared, the police are not above planting evidence to secure a conviction and that is a real worry. In this day and age the police are under a lot of pressure to solve crimes and it must be tempting to bend the rules a bit to do so.

Having offered my opinion on this topic I see no point in repeating it over and over when I know that it will be met with a dismissal.

I repeat again – I agree to disagree but it seems some very self opinionated people do not want to and just want to bang the table.

garinda 30-09-2006 13:44
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
My rather curt reply to Cyfr's inital reason, that he didn't like it, was followed by an acknowledgment that he did give a valid reason with the cross contamination example. Although I still agree to disagree with him on the benefits a national DNA database would afford us.

(By the way although you are older than me, I don't think you are a suspect for being Jack the Ripper.:D)

andrewb 30-09-2006 14:51
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J
Well there goes my faith in the law. Now who would remove it Westminster or The Europratts???
We handed power to europe through an act of parliament. If we wanted to we could get rid of that act and take back the power.

Though its good that any parliament can remove previous parliaments legislation, because if someone puts in some nutty legislation *cough poll tax* the next parliament can remove it if they wish to.

SPUGGIE J 30-09-2006 15:33
Re: DNA Sampling in Schools
 
Its time we took some back. They wield too much power over us and just because somthing is good for France and Germany dosnt make it good for the UK or Spain. An example being the labour laws from Brussels.


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