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What worried me yesterday Jambutty that there was a very young girl (about 10-12 years) in Asda, Blackburn wearing the full outfit.

Ok, how did I know she was that young ? Without a doubt. Maybe it was the way she was skipping down the aisle. So what is that all about then ? Are we now going to get the school children insisting on these in the playground ?

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The muslim women who choose to wear a veil that covers everything but their eyes have isolated themselves from society......there can be very little communication with them....you cannot tell anything about them because their face is covered......you cannot tell if they are smiling or not. If you meet someone in the street, you smile at them......even people you do not know. If you bump into someone you apologise and smile to let them know you are not an enemy. The women who wear a burqa cannot do that.....in fact they almost become socially invisible...non-people. I don't think you need to cover yourself from head to foot to proclaim your devoutly religious faith.......I would assume that anyone wearing vaguely muslim clothes to be devout, unless I saw actions that procalimed otherwise.
I am dismayed that every instance of media publicity is pounced on by the muslim community as an affront to them. I am not allowed to be affronted by the women who dress in this manner, who, if I am honest I find intimidating.

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I’ve also seen a few very young girls or maybe they were very small women but I doubt it, fully veiled, also katex. There is a difference in the way young girls and women walk so they were young girls. But then they have been indoctrinated since they were old enough to utter a few words and some parents have a great deal of influence over their young, especially girls.

For me the Muslim community has taken the opportunity to push at the boundaries in the hope of gaining concessions.

We acquiesce at our peril.

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This has gone beyond just the wearing of veils, the muslims are now just using this issue to try it on, to push us just an inch further. :mad:
Personally I have decided to join them I have purchased a balaclava with just eyeholes and a new scarf to wrap around my head. :)
If I meet any fellow head covers I will use an appropriate greeting to show my respect.;)

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Covering the face is not a religious edict. There is no such command in the Koran, nor does it say that women must dress in black. You will hear wearers say that men should not look at their "beauty" (are there no ugly ones then?). I think it's very insulting to men to infer that looking at a woman's features, or her hair, may provoke lustful thoughts or whatever it's supposed to do. No, that's merely an excuse, the real reason for the rapid increase in this practice is to enforce a separateness, you could say an apartheid, between cultures.

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http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/i...muhammad01.jpg

This illustration shows how men in the company of Muhammad used to be veiled as well. Funny how that isn't practiced much nowadays.

I used to have Saudi customers, whose wives even had their veiled eye slits covered by a lace visor. That was very hard to communicate with.

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I found this, which I found quite interesting.

http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~elguindi/Vei...ivateWomen.htm

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

That is an article in the daily mail yesterday. A woman wore the burqa for a day. Read it and see what you think.

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I think I'm going to start donning the robes of a monk, and wear sunglasses with it.:cool:

http://donsrental.com/costume/m/images/monkrenais.jpg

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And it looks like it was added afterwards. Look how straight it is along the bottom.

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Think you'll have to wear that get up at the next meet Rindy.Especially if you end up going around Ossie after.It will go down well in the bay horse:D :D :D

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It'll shield me from Peter Britcliffe's gaze as well.;)

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Well it wasn't me with the Tippex, just trying to score a cheap point, or otherwise I would have done them all one, slightly more dashingly well designed at that.

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Is that not what you meant Rindy:D :D

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Certainly not, and don't you expect no tip the next time you are ferrying the Tory top brass about.:D

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when you refer to the Tory top brass are you going back to your days in London and using this definition ....

'Brass' for hooker comes from cockney rhyming slang. Brass is short for a 'brass rubber' which rhymes with scrubber, another term for a prostitute.

just curious

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There you go Willow.

http://www.theasiannews.co.uk/herita..._the_veil.html

:D

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That's the one AccyJay. Thanks very much. :)

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That is probably because they don't go ramming planes into skyscrapers or committing acts of mass murder on the underground railway

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Maybe they do and just blame it on muslims ;)

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Jack Straw is the only MP to speak out for the silent majority. For airing the views of a mainly CHRISTIAN country he is condemned as a racist.
Why do white people have to remove hoods, helmets etc, but this is allowed? Surely this is anti-white racism? Should banks etc be tried for inciting racial hatred as well, just as these meddlers say of our Jack?

AND BEFORE ANYBODY SAY IT, DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT PLAYING THE RELIGION CARD.
I KNOW FOR A FACT ITS A LIFESTYLE CHOICE AND ITS NOT A LAW OF ISLAM.

It has to be said. Its a Christian country. I have no problems with other faiths.....so long as I am not affected by them. If I went to any other country I would try to integrate, not segregate myself.....so why do they do it.

No one forces other faiths to live here, and if they kick off over a perfectly reasonable comment from Mr Straw, then they know where the exit is.

BACK JACK!!!!!

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Point of order, they don't know where the exit is only the entrance.;)

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The Trevor McDonald programme on ITV tonight was very interesting. The Muslim girl who was in "The Apprentice", very Westernised but still a good Muslim, tried wearing a niqab for a while and hated it. She also talked to women who do wear it and got their reasons, most of which didn't make a lot of sense to me.

She's a young woman I can admire. She dresses in Western clothes and doesn't cover her head but it doesn't interfere with her religious beliefs. She's smart and intelligent and she has a mind of her own. She would make the perfect role-model for the sheep-like women who are now following extremist dictation and, effectively, oppressing themselves due to a misplaced sense of religious identity.

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This veil issue has got out of hand. Jeremy Vine is now asking listeners to vote on whether, the full Muslim dress the nikab (that leaves just the eyes visible), should be banned or not. I assume that this would also include the dress that hides the eyes behind a veil.

My answer is NO it should not be banned. What should happen is that if two people meet they should be able to see each other’s faces, especially if the meeting is to conduct some sort of business. The only exception being if the two people involved are both wearing clothing that covers all or part of the face. There is one other exception and that is if someone has a badly disfigured face that they feel uncomfortable with and do not want to show it. Although that could open a whole new can of worms.

“Please remove your veil.”
“Sorry I can’t, I have a disfigured face.”
How to you prove that they haven’t?

I would refuse to be served by a shopkeeper or checkout lady if she was fully veiled. If I were being interviewed for a job or presenting my application for Housing Benefits etc. I would ask for the interviewer to either remove the veil or change places with a non-veiled person. It would be exactly the same the other way around. I would not serve a veiled person nor interview them until they removed the veil.

This whole issue isn’t about the many different facets that have sprung up around it but simply conducting business face to face unhindered by a veil. That is the western way and nothing and no one should challenge that.

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To want the banning of a way people dress is against all that the so called free world boasts about. The veil is as much a part of their cultural identity as as the kilt is for the Scots, cowboy boots worn by Texans, cloth caps are for northerners etc etc etc. Ban one item and then we are on a slippery road downhill very rapid. I personally dont find anything wrong with it and would have no objections having an interview etc whith a person who wears one as to me it is their right to.

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...so presumably you would let people wonder naked through the streets?

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Eh?

Muslim women are fully clothed under the nikab Tealeaf

The result of the Jeremy Vine phone poll are that 96% of 6,350 callers said yes the nikab should be banned.

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Some girls aint far from that now. There needs to be a balance and then there is no room for this kind of issue and the problems that go with it.

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The result of the Jeremy Vine phone poll are that 96% of 6,350 callers said yes the nikab should be banned.
__________________

It would appear to me that in a democracy, if the vast majority of people find something offensive - such as nudity in a public place or smirking behind a mask - then legislation is put in place to stop the practice. If the majority of people want this banned because it is offensive to them, then go ahead and do it - that is democracy.

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democracy only works for the minority in the UK tealeaf :rolleyes:

the way things work is we have a vote and whatever the minority wants it gets and the majority go without , i guess its reverse democracy :)

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As much as I agree with you Tealeaf that in a democracy the majority rules but in this case the poll was not about the original issue.

However in this country only lip service is paid to true democracy as chav1 has pointed out.

The media and some citizens have twisted it away from the original issue and that was simply should a person be required to remove the veil in a one to one situation like attending a consultation with an MP in the constituency surgery? From that it also follows that the veil should also be removed whilst attending banks, post offices, police stations, courts, job interviews and meetings with officials. And as a matter of courtesy when meeting and talking to a member of the public. In short anywhere where a person wearing a full face crash helmet would be required to remove it.

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The funny thing is that the argument that "it does no harm" is the same one that is used by paedophiles. Both lack logic and both result in tragic social and physical consequences.

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Cheers Willow.

I wonder if you could give us a list of shops in Accy where we are likely to be served by someone wearing a Niqab, in particular those selling fresh foodstuffs.

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If I come across one I'll let you know. ;)

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So you agree it does do harm, yet you do not wish it banned?

Most peculiar!

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You have a most peculiar understanding of the English language Tealeaf if you can work out that I agree that it does no harm from my question of “Who has argued that it does no harm Tealeaf?”

I don’t care how a person dresses providing that it is with the bounds of public decency. What I do care about is seeing the face of the person that I am talking to or doing business with. I also care about a small sector of the citizens being given preferential treatment in that they can hide their face just because they follow the Islamic faith whilst other sectors have to remove any face covering.

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I give up..................:confused:

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if our creator wanted faces covered people would be born with veils or better still no face at all

simple as that realy aint it :rolleyes:

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Here's an interesting little point.

He got arrested. What's the difference?:confused:

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Makes you want to become a racist if I wasn't already one, it's a joke this country, I think I will try this on Saturday and see how far I can go.

Unemployment figures are up, of course they are with all the Europeans that have come here taking jobs that should be filled by English workers.:mad:

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Whilst I was reading Willows link I was actually thinking :eek: " Bagpuss! No you didn't! I didn't think you were serious!" :eek:

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Well if they dont fill the jobs available then employers are going to find someone that will. Not ideal, but a business still needs to run and if the only workers they can get are european then thats what they will take.

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I don’t know if anyone else watched Question Time coming from Preston last night but if you did you may have noticed that if the audience was to be representative of the country as a whole, we are losing the ‘veil’ debate.

Not only did the ‘veil’ topic take up more than half of the allotted programme time, which is unusual in itself, but the discussion wasn’t about the original ‘veil’ issue but had been dragged off on a tangent to encompass Islam and the right to wear what they like. Can I remind people that the only issue is whether a veil should be removed when attending an MP’s constituency surgery? And from that it follows any official one to one meeting.

Not one single person either on the panel or in the audience made the comparison between crash helmets and the ‘veil’. There were even a few Muslim women wearing the full dress and veil and they were allowed to say their piece from behind a mask, instead of being asked to remove it so that everyone could see their face and be able to judge the sincerity of the said piece.

One member of the panel even went as far as to suggest that talking to a person wearing a veil was no different to talking to them over the phone. But in the phone case neither can see the other’s face so they are on a level playing field.

The thought occurs that many office employees have a photo ID card either pinned to the outer clothing or hanging around the neck. How can you check if the person wearing the photo ID is that person, if they are wearing a veil?

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I was asked to take part in a radio documentary on this subject yesterday. It was recorded so I don't know when it's being aired.

The main question was about parallel lives. I think someone in the media used that phrase lately. I actually argued that everyone leads a parallel life with their neighbour, whatever the cultural background of that neighbour.

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Slightly on a tangent, but there is a programme on Channel 4 tonight about Muslim women who are fighting for equality, which would allow them full access to Britain's mosques.

Dispatches from channel4.com

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I saw that programme garinda and I support the Muslim women in their quest. Any organisation be it religious or secular that alienates sections of their followers by sex, colour, age or any other way either positively or negatively doesn’t carry any credence with me.

Now if only Muslims would support our way in that we non Muslims recognise each other by facial recognition and remove the veil in a one to one meeting instead of using the issue to confront.

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Have you seen it already?

It's not broadcast until tonight.:confused:

If you have I might very well be getting the same digital tv as you.:D

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Sorry garinda, I haven’t actually seen that Dispatches programme. What I saw was news items about it and had it in my mind to watch this evening and it all got mixed up. I would like to plead insanity if I may.

However it doesn’t change my opinion.

What’s the betting that no Muslim will agree to my offer.

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Well that Dispatches programme did reveal one very interesting fact. It would appear that each mosque committee led by a male Imam can put whatever interpretation it likes on the Koran. Thus some mosques allow women in to pray, albeit in their own area, and some do not. It’s is all down to the Imam and the strictly male committee. Apparently the Koran does not bar women from praying alongside the men in a mosque but treats all followers of Islam as equal.

One other point came through quite clearly is that some of the male members of a mosque got quite vociferous with the film crew and one even resorted to foul language, telling the camera crew to f*** o** whilst another issued threats against them. Not exactly a good advert for Islam. Then during meetings with the women the men made their point in a bullying and aggressive manner.

In my view the sooner that Muslim women get an equal voice on a mosque committee the better. Should that happen, and it is going to be a long hard fight, then the chances of Muslims integrating with the rest of us will be drastically improved. In fact I am convinced that it would happen quicker than many people could hope for. We non Muslims, men and women, should support their cause wholeheartedly.

The key to integration whilst retaining their own culture and none confrontational religion, are the Muslim women.

Women the world over have an affinity with each other, regardless of culture, colour or creed, that is not matched by their male counterpart and it is this affinity that will bring about integration if they are allowed a voice in Islam.

However, I would still ask a veiled Muslim women to remove her veil when in a one to one situation with me. She can see and read my face and judge from it whether I am sincere and truthful in my comments and it is only fair that I am able to do the same.

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Interesting. I wonder in what circumstances would a single Christian male be in a one-to-one situation with a fully-veiled Islamic lady, no other people being present?

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What about an interview with an official of the local authority, or the dole office, or a prospective employer, or police for starters Tealeaf? Except that officialdom is so scared of upsetting a Muslim that they have bent over backwards to accommodate their views. The Muslim males’ reaction to any sort of criticism is to threaten violence towards the critic. In other words they want to bully us into accepting their view. You can bet your sweet life if a non Muslim attended such an interview wearing a balaclava or a scarf covering the lower face, security would be called PDQ if they refused to remove the face covering.

Can you imagine a policeman taking a witness statement from a veiled Muslim woman?

The problem is that with a male dominated religion like Islam they want it all their own way. In spite of the claims of some Muslim women to the contrary the female is subjugated by the male. And like any victim some will actually end up agreeing with the oppressor. This oppression has been going on for so long that some Muslim women claim that it is their wish to wear the veil, when in fact it is a dictat from the Muslim males. They do so because they know that to rebel will invite violence against them so they agree to appease their aleged masters. There are Muslim women’s refuges you know!

The Muslim male doesn’t like the ‘Western’ way because it would strip his power over women.

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Yeah...what about such situations? Is it with or without the veil, and with no-one or someone else (female) present? I dunno...

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Have you actually spoken to these women, who chose to wear the veil. the ones i've spoken to are happy and even say that their families don't force them to wear it.

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Women in the Despatches programme last night spoke about how they chose, or not, to wear the veil. Not one of them mentioned male oppression.

What was more shocking was how militant the featured mosque in Blackburn was, compared with those shown in East London and Essex.

A very interesting programme, and for once I'm in agreement with Jambutty. It's Muslim women that could hold the answer for more integration, and understanding from all sections of the community.

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Well, to me, kash ... here in the U.K. 'tis just a matter of good manners .. way we have been brought up .. like taking off your bike helmet.

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Of course the Muslim women that you have spoken to will not denounce the wearing of the veil kash – not to a Muslim male. There is a well documented and established syndrome where the ‘victim’ will agree with and even defend the ‘oppressor’. Battered wives, husbands and even children do just that and are in denial when challenged. Long term abductees, male or female have often displayed an affinity for the abductor and pleaded on his/her behalf when released. In short they have been bullied into total submission.

No I have not spoken to a Muslim woman wearing the veil kash. If I did I would need to see her face when she answers my question to try and establish how much truth is behind her claim that it is her free choice to cover her face in public.

What a Muslim woman wears in public is up to her. But as katex has stated, it is a matter of plain good manners to show your face to people when you speak to them and not hide behind some sort of mask. In this day and age it is also a question of security. I’m not saying that all Muslims are terrorists, because they are not. Far from it! What I am saying is that today most, but not all, terrorists are Muslims.

It’s not just in the UK WillowTheWhisp. Criminals the world over have covered their faces when executing their crimes. It’s a ploy to prevent recognition in the belief that they will get away with their crime.

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So if you were a blind man, you'd never trust anyone at all, because you couldn't see them?

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I never said anything about not trusting anyone garinda and you know it. I stated that if I can see the face I could then try and judge if the person is being truthful or not. With a veil in place that option is taken away from me.

People always play the ‘blind’ card in such debates but forget that unless the person has recently been blinded, their other senses develop to try and compensate. A blind person is more attuned to the voice/speech and the voice/speech is another give away.

I suppose that now you will come back with, “what if a person is blind and deaf?” Hairs and splitting are two words that come to mind.

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Similar to calling a woman that wants to wear a burkha a 'victim', as well as comparing them to battered wives?

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