The Last Straw
 

Jack Straw MP has suggested that when any Muslim women come to his surgery, they should remove the face covering veil during the meeting with him. His reason – he cannot read a face that he cannot see.

Tricky one that because I can see and agree with both sides of the argument. However as the UK is not a Muslim country (yet) I think that Jack Straw MP has a point.

I would also ask, if a Muslim women was in court either as a witness or a defendant would she be allowed to retain the veil?

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Sorry jambutty, I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread but it's on the same subject, albeit a different question.

Does anyone know for sure why asian women wear these bhurkas, I have been told many different reasons (due to be married, hide themselves from the male eye, menstruating, brought shame on the family)?

Also why are there many more asian women wearing them now than ever before?

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I often wondered why you have to take a crash helmet off in a bank, but the asain (pakistani, indian) women can still keep their faces covered.


Don't want to be called racist again. lol

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This couples back to the crucifix at school. She wasn't allowed to wear it.
Either this country makes exceptions and exemptions based on religious belief or it doesn't.

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I've seen them driving with them on.

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I'm sure that Jack Straw would ask any member of the public to remove a crash helmet, balaclava, hoodie or any other facial covering at his surgeries. It is his surgery and he has every right to do so. I don't think that he is being racist, he is being sensible. I have asked women to remove their headgear during my clinics when there have been no men present, they have done so willingly. To be able to see a face is an important aspect of communication.......ask anyone who lip reads.

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This sort of attire HAS to restrict vision. A drivers license here includes a photo ID. Muslim women who wear the full rig have refused to uncover their faces for the photograph. Frankly, I am surprised the males in their household even allow them to drive! But I say, no ID, no license.

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It doesn't matter to me what people want to wear, if it makes them happy. I do wonder, though, why so many Muslim women feel the need to cover up in a country whose laws don't demand it. I remember when the first generation of Asian immigrants arrived here. My in-laws lived in Bradford, which was one of the first areas to have an Asian community, and the women from that community used to wear beautiful saris and salwar kameez. Why do they now, 40 years later, have to be covered from head to toe?

I agree everyone should have to bare their faces, at least, in official situations. Too much can be hidden behind a veil.

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Maybe Jack Straw should wear a mask during his surgeries, I`m sure the Asian women would appreciate it!!

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I wondered that too willow, but if they drive with them is that allowed in this country because surely it cant be safe, from the way i see it there is only a small gap for their eyes .. I do agree though that they do wear them more often these days i think Jack straw is right to ask them to remove them ..

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I dont know why they wear these and too have been told many reasons, I dont think it should be allowed especially for driving, how would you be able to identify the driver if they were wearing one of these? Or maybe thats why they wear it!

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Racist Post Alert !!!!

Q Why do they wear the headgear?

A 1 To annoy us.
2 Because they are ugly, in which case I thank them.
3 It's not really a women it's a male bomber in disguise.
4 Because an old man (who's also a bomber) beats her up if she doesn't.
5 Can't be recognised on CCTV

I'II get my coat;) :) ;)

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re Tinkerbelle's question anout the head covering , I remember Imam Khomeni saying in the early 80's that womens hair should be kept covered because it sends out "magic" rays which turn men into sex raged beasts.
I think a more reasonable explanation can be found in other traditions and customs from that part of the world , both Muslims and jews have dietery bans on pork , shellfish and alcohol , all very sensible with the climate in the middle east (ask anyone who has woken up on the middle of the empty quarter after a night spent with a bottle of siddiki) before we had refrigeration pork was allways iffy even in the UK ,and one bad oyster can really cause problems, Similarly the custom of eating with one hand and using the other for your personal cleanliness needs,if there is no water about to wash with, a sensible solution .
These days we are constanly being told to stay out of the sun because of skin cancer , so probably thru evolution in that part of the world people figured out it was best to stay covered up. even orthodox jewish women keep their heads covered , so the folks who drew up the rulebooks for various religions just incorporated local customs .

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its simple to me really, in certain situations i.e. driving, at airports etc, any official meeting be it health,political,etc, there is no reason to wear a burka, at the end of the day i am sure nobody enters this country through customs/passport control wearing them surely? it does not help one little bit,integration,peoples perception of them in these times, so those i saw on the news screaming about STRAW should think long and hard.

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how about in the bogs?:D

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when we are conversing with someone, we look at their face (hence the expression 'face to face') and we get a lot of information about what is being said by being able to read facial expressions. I can understand Jack Straw wanting to be able to look at the face of the people he is seeing in his surgeries....and he says that he always makes sure that the women in question have a female chaperone with them......and that he asks them politely if they mind removing their veils....he says that so far none has objected. I don't think he is being unreasonable....and he IS right. Although the veil is thought to be part of the religious doctrine it DOES convey to the outside world that this woman wants to proclaim her difference...whether that is for religious reasons or not. If Muslims want to be different so be it.....but then they should not be offended if they are at times asked to remove the face covering so that it can be ascertained that they are indeed female.......and that they are not a security risk. (especially in the current difficult climate). The other thing is .......sometimes I think that some muslims will take offence at any suggestion that is made....and perceive it as some sort of victimisation. They don't see or accept the bigger picture.
(Please note, I said SOME muslims).

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In Saudi Arabia, where the women's veils don't even have slits for the eyes (they are fine muslin so they can see, even if it's rather a dark view on life), you would often see a woman lift her veil so she could look at something in, say, a shop. If there was a man, alone, around she wouldn't do it but I often saw women lift their veils, discreetly, near my husband when he was with me.

Our Arab friend Munsha, who considered himself very Westernised as he owned a pair of jeans and a pair of cowboy boots, hated the fact that his mother and sisters had to be veiled to go out. We met one of his sisters at the petrol station/garage his family owned on the road to Jeddah. She came out of the office veiled but, when she saw there was no one else around, she threw the veil off and giggled while Munsha told us he had taught her to drive, off-road in the desert where no one could see. Saudi women are forbidden to drive.

She didn't speak any English and my Arabic was confined to Salaam Aleikum and Inshallah but we got on "like a house on fire", with Munsha translating. She said she wanted to visit England and no way would she wear a veil when she did. Was she right? As far as I'm concerned she was dead right.

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I'm lead to believe:-

That the veil is NOT required under the "Holy" orders that muslims follow but it was in fact brought in by the Arabs.

It is by pure choice of the lady to wear.

Have seen it being worn while lady drives (waiting to attend RTC with one being worn!!)

If I had shop which had the "Remove Crash Helmet" sticker in window would I then be within rights to ask them to leave shop or remove veil????

Think Mr Straw is correct in asking them to lift it so that he can see reaction in face while talking to them. If he sees that they are not happy with his answer he can then explain why it is that way or even suggest another way of dealing with the problem that brought them to HIS surgery.................................

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i'm outraged by this

if david cameron can hug a hoodie

why cant jack straw talk to a veil?

:D

but seriously its a difficult one - ok he cant read the faces but then surely they wudnt wear a veil in the first place if they felt it was religiously ok for JavaScript to see their face

i think its a comment that will come to haunt him come election time - but i think the way he was taken off the foreign/home sec position and seemingly demoted he's lost alot of pazazz he had for politics.

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Hehehe.... I was thinking about this thread last night and remembered an incident which happened to me about 3 years ago.

When I worked on the community, my caseload was roughly 90% Asian women. I worked on community for 9 years and over those years I got to know many local families. It would not be unusual for me to look after the same woman through all of her pregnancies and deliveries and I would often look after her sisters, cousins, in laws etc.

Very few women wore the veil for clinics, those who did were more than happy to remove them in the clinic because we were in a female environment.

Roughly 3 years ago I was doing some shopping in town when I was stopped and greeted by a lady in a veil. We had a lovely chat and she told me about her children and how the toddler who she was pushing in the pram was now walking and getting into everything. She asked if I was still at the hospital and how everything was going with me.. All in all we passed a pleasant few minutes then said goodbye and continued with our shopping.

To this day, I have no idea who I was talking to. :o

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Wikipedia has a short reference to the burqa (also burka or burqua)

http://www.vhs-oe.de/images/politik/burka.jpg

I bet this lass is their version of Tink's always getting into bother! :D

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Just comming home from work, listening to the radio in the car when the U.K report came on, Big news over here,I thought the traditional dress was flat cap and clogs,good on Jack Straw I hope he doesn't back down.

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I read the story in the Telegraph and knew full well that there would be the typical 'outraged' response the day after. I suspect that the problem here lies with the media and not with the majority of muslims.

A polite question asked in a polite manner is neither offensive or obligatory. If, as Jack Straw says, he asks whether they will remove the veil, the woman then has the option to remove it or refuse to remove it. As long as Jack Straw doesn't refuse to speak to the woman if she won't remove it, I can not see what the problem is.

I can imagine, that he thought long and hard about raising the issue publicly as he knew it would provoke this response from the media. I'm afraid that it is a sign of the times that this would be swooped on by the press and made a huge fuss about it. It is not simple things like a polite question that is causing the divide between the cultures, it is the outrageous response that the media make of it all.

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I dont think it was unreasonable of Jack Straw to ask to see the womans face,,,In my oppinnion the muslims pick and choose what they like and dont like about our customs,,,
We went to the blue mosque in Istanbul,and we "HAD"to take our shoes off,which was only right and proper to follow their custom.... we did it because it was only curtesy to do so,,,but i think there might have been a few objections from the locals if we haddent...:rolleyes:

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The real problem with some of the more militant Muslims is that they will jump on anything that ever so slightly questions Islam. And the press as well but they only want to sell newspapers so they will stir things up.

I go back to my original point – would a Muslim woman be allowed to remain veiled in a British court of law in the UK if she was a witness or defendant? I just cannot see the judge allowing a witness to be cross examined without him, the jury and barristers being able to see the face of the witness. Nor can I see a Muslim woman being allowed to remain veiled if she were a defendant. The judge and in particular the jury would like to see the face of the defendant as the trial progresses.

So on balance I think that Jack Straw MP was correct in asking veiled Muslim women to remove the veil during consultations.

I see that it has been reported today that Tony Blair has distanced himself on this issue and it is not government policy.

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My understanding is that those who opt to wear the full veil are following the extreme interpretation of Islam, which also states there is no law but gods law. As such, they do not recognise the authority of goverments. Straw - and any other MP for that matter - should therefore recipricate and simply tell these jokers to p*ss off out of the surgery. Simple, really.

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T you certainly have a way of cracking me up.:D :D :D

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Interesting....

I've always wondered how many of the women wear the garb because it is comfortable for them or they wish to, how many because their family demands that they do, and how many because they live in a society where it is expected?

Regarding Jack Straw MP, I can see many reasons why a doctor would wish to see the patient's face. Medicine is more than merely talking with a patient. It is also observing many physical aspects of that patient. For instance, both the skin and the sclera of the eye may reveal clues to medical issues.

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I would not like to be medically examined by Jack Straw especially as he isn't, as far as I'm aware, a doctor. :eek:

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Errr....I think Billcat is getting confused between an MP and an MD (Member of Parliament (UK) and Medical Doctor (US)). Jack Straw is an MP.

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I wouldn't surprise me a bit if Jack Straw didn't stand at the next election ,considering the local demographics and Mr Straws background I'm surprised he has been there so long . Blackburn being a strong labour seat you can be sure the central kommitte allready have the next candidate lined up , someone who will reflect the face of modern Britain .

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I think it may have been the word "surgery" which confused Billcat. :)

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I don't know if I was more aware of it because of all the stories in the news this week, but shopping in Accrington today there seemed to be many more veiled women than usual.

Jack Straw's, in my opinion very fair comments, might infact produce a backlash, and even more Muslim women might wear the veil in protest.

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It is a option for them not a compultion.

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I've just been wandering, & come across a couple of interesting sites. Links below.

http://blogs.theasiannews.co.uk/asia..._the_veil.html

http://www.theasiannews.co.uk/herita..._the_veil.html

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It's near the bottom of the 2nd link.

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It was interesting to read about the way people's views changed, due to what she was wearing.

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It made me realise how difficult it must be for them. There's enough rascist idiots out there, & to bring more attention to themselves must be really difficult. Fair Play, loads of respect for that.

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If you think that was bad, have a look at this .............

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/5415478.stm

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Why is anyone saying that Jack Straw is to blame? To blame for what, exactly? He said he asks, politely, if the woman he is talking to would like to remove her veil. That is all. The attack illustrated in the article stems from a deep-rooted dislike of veiled women, possibly from Islamaphobia, not from Jack Straw.

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50 years ago if there were any Muslims in the UK they kept a low profile and there were no mosques. As Muslims arrived in the UK they used someone’s front room as a place for prayers.

Today 50 years on there are some 1.5 million Muslims (about 2.5% of the population) with mosques all over the place. Areas of towns like Blackburn, Burnley, Bradford, Manchester and London to name just a few, now have at least one Muslim enclave, which just happen to coincide with a local authority ward for that town/city. So the Muslims now have Councillors and one or two have become mayors of a town. Some have also been charged for rigging local election results.

Officialdom has bent over backwards to accommodate the Muslim immigrants and they have taken advantage of this by pushing for more and more. Officialdom has obliged and now is fearful of upsetting Muslims at every turn so they pander to their whims.

Every town or city with a large Muslim population seems to have a Muslim Leader to represent them. There is even a Muslim federation to represent Muslim policemen.

The point that I am making is that the Muslims only pay lip service to integration. Their agenda is to take over and we are allowing it to happen. Nay! In some cases we are actually encouraging it and helping them. There are even Muslim TV channels now.

Jack Straw was right to ask a Muslim woman attending his surgery to remove her veil so that a face to face consultation can be just that – face to face not face to covered face.

Question from Tinkerbelle
Also why are there many more asian women wearing them now than ever before?
Answer - to rub our faces in it. They are making a public statement that it is their choice to go around veiled up and if we don’t like it in certain situations we can lump it. In other words they are being confrontational.

The other day Fiona Bruce, a BBC newsreader, was told that she could not wear a crucifix necklace on air. That's how far we have gone to pander to the Muslims.

Those women that wore beautiful saris that you refer to West Ender were Indian Hindus not Pakistani Muslims. They also had a red dot on the forehead and contrary to popular belief it wasn’t the result of some council official tapping the forehead with a finger whilst saying, “No you can’t have a Council house.”

The Muslim community are out breeding us and I will warrant that in 20 years time whole towns will be Muslim enclaves not just a couple of wards in them.

50 years from now we will either have been pushed out of our own country or converted to Islam.

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I think you have a valid point, Jambutty, but the women I used to see were not all Hindus. Muslim women were not all covered like they are now and they admit, themselves, it has become more prevalent since 9/11.

There is nothing in the Qu'ran that dictates that a woman must be hidden from view. The practice is male and culturally driven but, in this country, it is a statement of religious identity and a denial of integration. Though I am in favour of religious tolerance we must not allow ourselves to be dictated to by the religious minority.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. That's not a bad concept.

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anyone over 50 years of age remembers student uprest during the 60's , protest this , protest that , ban this , ban that ......usually led by a bunch of extreme left wing radicals from the LSE, seem to remember that amongst the more vocal of these young turks were .....Mr Tariq Ali, Mr Jack Straw and a certain Mr Peter Hain, seems the chickens he protested so much for have come home to roost and are now pecking him on his a**e

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Britain's first mosque actually opened, in what was then still Lancashire, one hundred and seventeen years ago, in 1889.

The first purpose built mosque opened in the same year in Woking, Surrey.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/herita...rticle_1.shtml

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And we even allow them on accyweb, how did we allow this to happen?:)

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http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/a...f?d=1160040151

A few years ago when I was on AOL and used to enjoy the quiz rooms I was quite surprised and shocked when members "outed" certain quiz hosts as being muslim. What flippin difference did it make to taking part in or hosting general knowledge quizzes? Yet some people would actually boycot quizzes run by a muslim host - or one percieved to be muslim. Absolutely barmy.

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Accusations have been made of us being racist on here recently.

Reading some of the posts and comments in this thread, even with the smiley after, they sadly aren't far off.

I'm not getting into a defensive argument about which posts. Any right minded person can clearly see the thinly veiled hatred and fear.

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The sort of crap posted by some people in this thread is exactly like the anti-semetic propoganda used by the Nazis in Germany in the 1920/30's.

Very saddening.:(

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Yes it was good. Muslim leaders could, and should, be doing a hell of a lot more to encourage intergration, and stop the fear put about by scaremongering idiots.

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Much obliged for the information garinda. Isn’t the Internet wonderful for obtaining information?

Quote:

Accusations have been made of us being racist on here recently. Reading some of the posts and comments in this thread, even with the smiley after, they sadly aren't far off. I'm not getting into a defensive argument about which posts. Any right minded person can clearly see the thinly veiled hatred and fear.

Why not name the posts that you consider as racist to prove your point and give them a chance to reply. Someone could also state “reading most of the posts shows no sign of racism.”

If trying to protect my country from an Islamic invasion is racist then you can call me a racist.

There is fear, fear of being swept aside to make way for Islam. Pointing out what is happening is not scare mongering or being racist.

Put the whole issue on a personal level. You take in a homeless person onto your house and give them personal use of one bedroom and integrated use of the bathroom and kitchen. After a while his lady friend starts to stay overnight at weekends and then before you know it she has moved in with him. Next comes taking over the kitchen because they don’t eat the same food as you do. So you allow them some space to store their food. Soon she always seems to be cooking her and her fellows meals just when you want to cook for your family. You are slowly being pushed aside in your own home. That is what is happening on a national level.

This integration thing is mostly one way WillowTheWhisp. We are content in having immigrants integrating with us but the Muslim community want it on their terms and if they don’t get it then they don’t.

There are many moderates, of course, who just want to get on with their lives but they are ruled by the mosque leaders and when it comes to the crunch they will side with them or be ostracised.

I wish Wahid Iqbal success in his venture. However if one in three Muslim children are poorly educated that means two in three are well educated and the immigrant student level at the Blackburn College bears that out. Compare that to the recent report that suggests that over 500 schools are below standard in spite of the government’s claims that it is only 50.

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Yes it is. However, in this case I knew what you had posted was wrong, because I'd watched a television programme last week about architecture, which mentioned the Victorian building in Woking being the first purpose built mosque in Britain.

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By what criteria are you defining 'immigrant students' - do you have figures about how many of the students you refer to have actually just located in the UK or are you basing it on the number of 'coloured' (for want of a better word) faces that you see around the college?

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A lady muslim writer quoted in a paper yesterday that the veil had nothing to do with Islam at all ... the veil actually came out of the desert when there were sandstorms and people had to cover their faces ! Well, could be acceptable on Blackpool beach I suppose.

Also a Blackburn student stated that they wore them so as not to draw attention to themselves .. well, they alert my attention, scare me to death when you round the corner of an aisle in Asda. Also that they are keeping their beauty to themselves. Can't just get my head around this latter comment .. you only know you are beautiful if other people comment on it. don't you ?? :confused:

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Hello Everyone,

I thought I might as well drop my two-pennorth into the argument, if nobody objects.

I largely agree with Jambutty and Tealeaf on this; the matter, at heart, is one of a refusal by a minority to pay anything more than the most superficial lip service to the concept of integration. The minority are jealous of the rights they have as British subjects, but are careless and largely ignorant of the responsibilities that are concomittant with those rights - you know, old fashioned British concepts like ummmm.... fair play, honesty, respect for the law and simple courtesy.

As many of you are no doubt aware, I have very little time for or patience with religionists of whatever stripe or flavour. Nor do I have time or patience to consider or pander to their often bizarre and illogical self-imposed limitations. The Niquab and Bourka I count among these limitations. They are worn to assert difference and as an affront to the host culture which is largely despised. It would not surprise to to discover that there is also an element of radical muslim chic mixed up in there too!

Unusually, for me, I agree that Jack Straw was correct in drawing this issue to the attention of the public. Though considering the supine response of the Labour Party in connection with the issues of mass immigration from the Indian Sub-continent and mealy mouthed, politically correct, apologism in the face of the excesses of the immigrant population, I rather fancy it is, as usual, too little, too late.

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Welcome back A-b.:)

As posted, I too agree with Jack Straw. What I do find frightening is that this, and other issues, are being used as a tool to spread fear and hatred.

Also as posted I think Muslim leaders could be doing a hell of a lot more to allay these fears.

Just a question, when does an 'immigrant' stop being called an immigrant?

Second, third, fourth generation?

I have some Irish friends who who be interested in the answer, or is it not applicable because they are white?

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It's nice to be back, but it's just a flying visit I'm afraid.

In answer to your question, I think that they stop being "immigrants" when they pass the Norman Tebbit Test or perhaps when the test becomes irrelevant.

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Tebbit test?

Whoosh, over my head.:eek:

When they can ride a bike to look for a job??

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That was my thought really, which is why I asked it of Jambutty. A lot of the people that he is calling 'immigrant' are probably 2nd or 3rd generation. If that is the case then he is basing his argument and his assumptions on 'colour' and not strictly speaking on religion.

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Which cricket team they support.

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I define an immigrant student Gayle as someone who has either been born abroad or born in the UK to a family that has come from abroad. I suppose that strictly speaking that is incorrect. It should be a student born to an immigrant family. However the general assumption of immigrant or ethnic minority includes those born in the UK from immigrant families. To argue semantics on this point is pointless.

Many years ago when I attended Blackburn College on a variety of courses the majority of the students (mainly young) were none British and in the main Pakistani. As most Pakistani people are Muslims it is not unreasonable to assume that most of the students at Blackburn College are Muslims.

Today as I drive past the various college premises the bulk of the students that I see are from what people call the ethnic minority. In other words the children or now grandchildren from immigrant (Pakistani) families.

An immigrant garinda is surely just the person who arrives on our shores from abroad with the intention of settling here. Any offspring are British born from immigrant families. In the early part of WWII thousands of people from Europe (Poles in particular) sought refuge in the UK from the Nazi tyranny. They integrated and stayed on after the war ended. Even some German prisoners of war stayed on and integrated into British society.

When I served at a British naval shore wireless station in South Africa during the apartheid era for nearly three years I conformed to the SA law without question whilst off station. I only sat in the seats reserved for white (blankes) on buses, trains and even benches and only drank from ‘whites only’ water fountains. In other words I and my shipmates integrated.

On station where we had four Bantu labourers/cleaners and a black cook (I can’t remember where he came from) and I and most of my shipmates treated them as one of our own. We would often spend an evening sat outside their quarters drinking a coke or tea or something (no alcohol) whilst we chatted and got to know each other. I learned a lot about the apartheid oppression and also about the bush. One of the four, called Bethel, saved me from getting bitten by a cobra. It had slithered up a drainpipe and I was about to put my hand in to grab the tail and yank it out with a view to caving its head in. Well you can’t have snakes slithering around our living quarters can you? When Bethel stopped me, he poked a stick into the drainpipe only to find that the head came out first. Somehow the snake had turned round in the narrow confines. He knew and I didn’t. He dispatched the cobra with one quick blow.

In Bahrain where I served for nearly two years at the naval base we conformed to the local laws when off station particularly during Ramadan. We didn’t walk around town smoking a fag or drinking a bottle of coke. We respected the local customs. On station was a different matter though. So why can’t the Muslims do the same in the UK?

I am not basing my argument purely on colour Gayle, although a person’s appearance is a good indication of where they come from even if it is one or two generations removed. A person’s colour is only an indication of where they come from and not who they are.

But to get back to the ‘veil’ issue. When a motorcyclist enters certain premises s/he is asked to remove the crash helmet so that s/he can be identified. You can’t sit in a job interview wearing a crash helmet. If a veiled driver is stopped by the police for something and they produce their driving license the cop will ask them to remove the veil for identification purposes. Otherwise how will he know if the license really belongs to the person showing it?

Where a crash helmet protects the head and face in the event of an accident it still hides the face and so does a veil even if you can see the eyes. Refusal to remove the veil on pseudo religious grounds is an affront to our laws and could be seen as confrontational. For me the choice is simple – either conform to our laws and requirements or do not put yourself into a situation where your religious beliefs will clash with our laws and requirements.

British laws and way of life has priority if there is a culture clash.

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People are wary Rind, when we were younger the asian girls wore pants under their uniform at school, this we understood it was part of their religion, that they were unable to show their legs, fine, no-one argued about it, we respected it. BUT this is going a step to far, it's obvious that more are wearing them than ever before and to me it seems more and more are wearing these after 9/11. I have tried to educate myself on reasons why they wear them, just for my own curiosities sake but the reasons seem shrouded in mystery. As I posted, I must of heard of at least 30 different reasons. I can't help but think that with all the secrecy is it extremists showing their allegiance.

We have a known Al-Quaida supporter living close by to us and since 9/11 he has grown his beard and donned head gear that he never wore before. The women you see wearing bhurkas, when accompanied by a male, he will have a beard and head gear (sorry don't know what the official name is for the cap). What else am I to think if I can't educate myself.

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Even Dick Turpin Took His Mask Off In Court And Well Spose When They Hung Him He Wasnt Wearing It Either

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Is anyone else as fed up as I am with hearing about this and about any other perceived "insults" to Muslims? It could be argued that women walking around with their faces covered is an insult to non-Muslims who find the practice strange, unnecessary and, to some, offensive but who in the public eye would dare to say so without being branded "racist"?

Why do we make all this fuss? Why do we hear, yet again, that Muslim leaders are outraged and demanding an apology?

I'm not religious. I am, in fact, an athaeist but I was brought up Catholic and I went to a Catholic school. By the time I was 9 years old I was used to the odd taunt and sneer from other, non-Catholic, children for no other reason than that I was RC. I didn't understand why - any more than they did if the truth be known. My father wasn't Catholic and I knew some of his family had been less than happy that he married my mother, who was. It didn't make any sense to me but my dad would just say that people who were bigoted were simply ignorant, more to be pitied than blamed. I didn't go to the Press when ever I was on the receiving end of irrational sectarian prejudice. The Parish Priest didn't shout from the pulpit that his parishioners were offended. When the Iain Paisleys of this world screamed that the Pope was evil, who really gave a damn?

We on this forum, and the whole of the media, are arguing and discussing the fact that a Western man says he asks Muslim women to uncover their faces. Why on Earth is that such a big deal? Is it any worse than inviting a devout, non-drinking Baptist to have a beer or offering a Jew a bacon sandwich?

So why does this country make such a meal of everything that upsets a Muslim cleric or his flock? Why do we give them air-time? Isn't it time we started to treat Islam as just another religion, which is all it is, and to demand a bit of respect for the rest of the population as well as being expected to give respect with no return? This country should start to get its priorities right and to stop treating anything concerned with Islam as universally sacred and precious.

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Lets cut the crap and get to the point, you can stick integration and multiculturism as far as it will go and I'm not smiling.:mad:

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Does this mean im classed as an immigrant? My mum & dad came from ireland roundabout 1950.

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Life was much simpler in the 1950/60s,,all we worried about then was the teddy boys,,hippies ,,and mods and rockers....
life seems much more violent now,,,,

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CULTURE

SOME DEFINITIONS

• Culture refers to the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving.
• Culture is the systems of knowledge shared by a relatively large group of people.
• Culture is communication, communication is culture.
• Culture in its broadest sense is cultivated behavior; that is the totality of a person's learned, accumulated experience which is socially transmitted, or more briefly, behavior through social learning.
• A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.
• Culture is symbolic communication. Some of its symbols include a group's skills, knowledge, attitudes, values, and motives. The meanings of the symbols are learned and deliberately perpetuated in a society through its institutions.
• Culture consists of patterns, explicit and implicit, of and for behavior acquired and transmitted by symbols, constituting the distinctive achievement of human groups, including their embodiments in artifacts; the essential core of culture consists of traditional ideas and especially their attached values; culture systems may, on the one hand, be considered as products of action, on the other hand, as conditioning influences upon further action.
• Culture is the sum of total of the learned behavior of a group of people that are generally considered to be the tradition of that people and are transmitted from generation to generation.
• Culture is a collective programming of the mind that distinguishes the members of one group or category of people from another.

I don't know you, but let's presume that your culture is different from someone say living in a multi-million poud house in Clelsea. They may go to the opera, hunt (abroad) and employ staff. Their cultural life is different from mine, and I presume yours. Just as the cultural life of someone working as a farmer and living in a croft in the Outer Hebrides would be.

We are, and always have been multi-cultural society.

If your real problem is with Britain being a multi-racial society, at least have the balls to admit it, don't hide behind the semantics of culturalism.

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Its a nice Politically Correct word multiculturism that hides a multitude of sins. As for your other point don't question if I have balls because yes I also have a problem with a multi-racial society but more I have a problem with a multi-religious society in particular muslims.

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Fine, thanks for your honesty, which isn't after all primarily with culture, but race.

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ooooooo grannyclaret how i do agree with you ...

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Yes we've always been multi-racial and multi-cultural and it's what has made Britain the country it is today. The problem now is that a very vocal minority seems, to some, to be trying to impose its culture on the rest of the populace. That is worrying a lot of people and is leading to bitterness and ill-feeling.

In the mid 19th century we had a large influx of Irish, during and after the potato famine. Later that century the Jews of Eastern Europe fled to this country from persecution in their homelands. Here were just 2 groups, though there were many others, with their own ethnic and religious identities. In both cases they started their lives in England living in their own, separate communities. If you look at the demographic map of Manchester and its surrounding areas between 1850 and 1900 you will see the preponderance of Irish in Salford and Jews in Manchester, particularly Cheetham Hill; you'll see the Catholic Cathedral in Salford and the synagogue in Manchester. These people gradualy integrated with, added to and enriched our Nation.


We sometimes seem to forget that not all immigrants from Asia are Muslims. There is also the Hindu community but do we hear a constant barrage of complaint that they are treated unfairly? They have their own culture and their own religion but does it fly in your face? I went to a Hindu wedding some years ago. One of the family was wearing a gorgeous sari, had her hands decorated with henna and a bindi on her forehead and I complimented her on how nice she looked. She said, "Oh well it's nice to dress up for an occasion like this but I usually wear a suit when I'm working." That's integration.

I don't ask Muslims not to be Muslims, that would be very wrong, but I feel it's vital that they accept the norms of their adopted country and do not consider themselves, and perpetuate, a completely separate culture.

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Reading between the lines 'old boy' have you got a problem with next door :confused: Live and let live I say.:engsmil:

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Yes, now shut up and peel those spuds for tea. While your at it pass me another Guinness :rolleyes: :D :engsmil:

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Don't try to read between the lines because you are a mile off course as usual, people who live and let live are doormats.:cool:

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I'm afraid that it was only by reading through the lines that we got you to admit your fear isn't of with multi-culturalism but multi-racialism.

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Tea at 22.32? You must be joking:D

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I wonder if it is any coincidence that only a few years later, H.G.Wells placed the initial Alien invaision in "War of the Worlds" in Woking?

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:engsmil: All the huffing and puffing any of us does, is not going to alter the status quo, the die has been cast. We have to learn to live in
harmony with each other, or the best we can. :engsmil:

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As poppy been on this thread yet you bunch of racists you lol

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Thank you I take that as a compliment kind Sir.:D

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All Jack Straw MP did was make public that he would ask any Muslim woman wearing a veil over her face to remove it when in his consulting room. A simple request as in a one to one meeting it is important that each person can see the others face to judge the reaction during the discussion.

The media has twisted that simple request in to something much more sinister and the Muslim community has grabbed at the chance to confront non Muslims to further their cause. Over the weekend Muslims have picketed Jack Straw’s constituency office.

We have had the BBC tell Fiona Bruce not to wear a necklace with a cross on it whilst on air, as it might offend some viewers. Now BA has done the same with one of their employees. Yet they allow Sikhs to wear a turban, which declares to the world that the wearer is a Sikh. But you can see his face.

A Muslim assistant teacher has been told to remove her veil whilst actually teaching in a classroom and she has, quite rightly, been suspended for refusing. And now that particular issue looks like it will end up in an industrial tribunal.

This veil issue has got out of hand and the major reason (apart from newspapers wanting to sell more newspapers) is that the Muslim community is keeping it in focus by more Muslim women going out dressed with a veil covering all or part of the face, with the incumbents of this land fighting back. Yet they are being stabbed in the back by the BBC and BA.

In short the Muslim community is trying to FORCE us to accept their ways in OUR WAY OF LIFE. Make no mistake we, the anti veil lobby, HAVE TO WIN this difference of opinion. If we don’t then we may as well all go and buy a copy of the Koran and start studying.

I have often stated that if there is a culture/religion clash between the Muslim community and the incumbent residents of the UK, THEY HAVE TO BACK DOWN.

If Muslim women want to wear the veil in their own houses then that’s OK but once they step into our world they MUST conform to our way and that means no veils.