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Billcat 27-02-2007 00:44
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 389244)
If prisoners wanted tobacco/phone cards/magazines/stationary etc. they'd work for them if they had too.
And, provided that all prisoners with reasonable behavior in lock-up can be provided with the opportunity to work, I'd agree with you. This does not seem to be the case. Based on the links I posted, jobs seem to be pretty scarce on the inside.

Also, I believe that any prisoner with reasonable behavior should be allowed to pursue further education. It's somewhat of a civilizing influence, and may help them to find employments at the end of their term. Not sure if I'd agree that all magazines should fall into the luxury category.

They've had an interesting program in one of our prisons. The prisoners work to train therapy dogs. It's considered a very high privilege among the inmates to be allowed into the program. Takes some seriously good behavior to get in and stay in, and the work is useful. As many of these inmates have real socialization issues, the work with the dogs sometimes has a therapeutic effect as well.

WillowTheWhisp 27-02-2007 07:19
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
The issue of education is a tricky one. I see the point about rehabilitation and getting them away from crime but:

If you look at the way to further education for non criminals which involves a student loan and starting out life in debt compared to free education in jail it still sounds unfair. The criminals have an unfair advantage - should that be?

jedimaster 27-02-2007 09:24
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billcat (Post 389294)

They've had an interesting program in one of our prisons. The prisoners work to train therapy dogs. It's considered a very high privilege among the inmates to be allowed into the program. Takes some seriously good behavior to get in and stay in, and the work is useful. As many of these inmates have real socialization issues, the work with the dogs sometimes has a therapeutic effect as well.
did'nt they make a documentary series about this?

if it's the one i'm thinking of then i have to admit it did seem to work really well for all parties (ie. prisoner, dog and owners)


sorry bit of a thread wander i know!

garinda 27-02-2007 09:45
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 389316)
The issue of education is a tricky one. I see the point about rehabilitation and getting them away from crime but:

If you look at the way to further education for non criminals which involves a student loan and starting out life in debt compared to free education in jail it still sounds unfair. The criminals have an unfair advantage - should that be?
I think Myra Hindley took two degrees and a Phd. whilst in prison.

Was that fair, when people who have never broken the law, or tortured and killed children, can't afford to go into higher education?

Personally I think not.

Ianto.W. 27-02-2007 10:16
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimaster (Post 389347)
did'nt they make a documentary series about this?

if it's the one i'm thinking of then i have to admit it did seem to work really well for all parties (ie. prisoner, dog and owners)


sorry bit of a thread wander i know!
Yes in the film the instigator of the idea was a nun, who woked for the prison service in the USA, and she ran into all the funding dificulties and 'easy time' attiudes that are being discussed in this thread, the dog's were for all different types of disabilities.

Billcat 27-02-2007 20:20
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 389316)
The issue of education is a tricky one. I see the point about rehabilitation and getting them away from crime but:

If you look at the way to further education for non criminals which involves a student loan and starting out life in debt compared to free education in jail it still sounds unfair. The criminals have an unfair advantage - should that be?
A lot of the criminals are sadly lacking in education. If anything the average criminal is educationally disadvantaged. While it is not the only thing that leads to crime, one contributing factor is that folks with a poor education are unlikely to get decent-paying jobs. If the goal is to precent recidivism, education is a good idea. Getting these prisioners doing anything constructive is an important step towards getting them out of the prison system permanently when they are released.

I'm not convinced that your repeated comparisons of the economic diferrences between ordinary folks and crminals holds water, willow. The circumstances are not strictly comparable. If you or I want further education, we can get it pretty cheaply and, at the same time, hold down a job that will furnish the funds to pay for it. My employer will also pay for some continued education, which is not an uncommon benefit here in the USA. Most inmates have jobs that pay very little, or no job at all. Please read the info on the link I posted previously.

Billcat 27-02-2007 20:23
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimaster (Post 389347)
did'nt they make a documentary series about this?

if it's the one i'm thinking of then i have to admit it did seem to work really well for all parties (ie. prisoner, dog and owners)


sorry bit of a thread wander i know!
I remember seeing something about it on television. It was also interesting to see the prisioners begin to behave more maturely, especially when the time came for the dogs to leave the prision and begin their work.

WillowTheWhisp 27-02-2007 20:45
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billcat (Post 389854)
My employer will also pay for some continued education, which is not an uncommon benefit here in the USA.

We're not discussing the USA though. This was about minimum wages being paid here in the UK. We're in the UK and I don't think it's a common benefit here.


Yes I do keep making the comparisons because I don't think it's very encouraging or fair for law abiding citizens to keep getting the rough end of the stick. It's like rewarding truants for changing their ways and attending school - what about rewarding the ones who've never bunked off at all? What message is it giving to them? Play truant for a while, then go back to school and get rewarded? Is that really the type of message we want to be sending out?

garinda 27-02-2007 23:14
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billcat (Post 389854)
A lot of the criminals are sadly lacking in education. If anything the average criminal is educationally disadvantaged. While it is not the only thing that leads to crime, one contributing factor is that folks with a poor education are unlikely to get decent-paying jobs. If the goal is to precent recidivism, education is a good idea. Getting these prisioners doing anything constructive is an important step towards getting them out of the prison system permanently when they are released.

I'm not convinced that your repeated comparisons of the economic diferrences between ordinary folks and crminals holds water, willow. The circumstances are not strictly comparable. If you or I want further education, we can get it pretty cheaply and, at the same time, hold down a job that will furnish the funds to pay for it. My employer will also pay for some continued education, which is not an uncommon benefit here in the USA. Most inmates have jobs that pay very little, or no job at all. Please read the info on the link I posted previously.
Further education in this country is becoming a thing that only the well off will soon be able to afford.

As for the differences between 'ordinary' people and prisoners, there aren't any, except prisoners have broken the laws of the land, and are being punished for it.

At present 6/12 criminals reoffend within the year in the UK, even with a second attempt at getting an education in prison, which was their choice if they wasted the twelve years of State education they would have got.

Poverty is not an excuse to embark on a life of crime. It is an insult to the millions of poor people who don't resort to it, and try to live an honest life.

Mancie 27-02-2007 23:53
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 389995)

Poverty is not an excuse to embark on a life of crime. It is an insult to the millions of poor people who don't resort to it, and try to live an honest life.
There is no excuse for a life of crime but you would have to be living in cuckoo land to belive it is not THE major factor in crimes like muggings, robbery with violence, stealing cars, and most street crimes.. who says it is an excuse? no excuse but a fact. how many of the boys educated at Eton resort to these type of crimes?.. not many.. they are more into massive fraud.. which carry lighter sentences when convicted. This sort of "no excuse" label has been going on since the Victorian times.. of course there is no excuse.. but you can't tell me that poverty does not increase crime.

garinda 28-02-2007 00:01
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 390011)
There is no excuse for a life of crime but you would have to be living in cuckoo land to belive it is not THE major factor in crimes like muggings, robbery with violence, stealing cars, and most street crimes.. who says it is an excuse? no excuse but a fact. how many of the boys educated at Eton resort to these type of crimes?.. not many.. they are more into massive fraud.. which carry lighter sentences when convicted. This sort of "no excuse" label has been going on since the Victorian times.. of course there is no excuse.. but you can't tell me that poverty does not increase crime.

Poverty isn't a choice, but deciding to smoke your first spliff, or your first hit of crystal meths, or shooting up heoin is, and is a major contributor to all crime in this country.

Rich or poor, we all make choices in life, and to use poverty as an excuse for crime is an insult to the millions of people legally living within their meagre means.

Mancie 28-02-2007 00:07
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garinda (Post 390014)
Poverty isn't a choice, but deciding to smoke your first spliff, or your first hit of crystal meths, or shooting up heoin is, and is a major contributor to all crime in this country.

Rich or poor, we all make choices in life, and to use poverty as an excuse for crime is an insult to the millions of people legally living within their meagre means.
Rich or poor we all make choices?... the choices the rich have are far removed from the choices of the less well off.

garinda 28-02-2007 00:17
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancie (Post 390018)
Rich or poor we all make choices?... the choices the rich have are far removed from the choices of the less well off.

Pathetic, it's like saying poor people are predestined for a life of crime.

They aren't. Lots of people who start out with very little advantages live honest lives, and chose not to commit crime.

http://www.revision-notes.co.uk/revision/284.html

garinda 28-02-2007 00:20
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
According to this article in the Washington Post, ugly people are more likey to commit crime and end up in prison.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...602039_pf.html

I'll start baking you a cake with a file in it now.:D

Mancie 28-02-2007 00:23
Re: Minimum wage in Prison?!
 
yep.. it's the same as saying the kids of millionaires have a predestined life.. only thing is they get what they want .. no problem...


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