Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Where to now Mr Blair? president of the biggest public nuisance ever designed by man, The European Union, The largest money waster in the world. Just the ticket for you old boy join the rest of the fat cat's and get fatter, just make sure you take Tony Booth's daughter with you 'Mrs Cheescake'. The most infamous speech in history will haunt you forever. "I did what I thought was right" the trouble is George Dubya Bush did your thinking for you!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

gone had the mines gone had the unions bring back thatcher nothing left for her to ruin now

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

She were worse than him davo he was a tory with a Labour hat on, at least Thatcher admitted what she was a pure BITCH!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

may be but were do we go from here 10 years over all i think he as done ok apart from letting bush put is hand up is backside

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

To me the jury's out on Blair, yes there are a lot of negatives (Britain being a poodle to Bush, Iraq war, Afghanistan, Use of spin as a political tool, removal of socialism from the labour party).

However there are an awful lot of positives, Tax Credits, Northern Ireland, investment in the Public Services ((regardless of everyone on here spouting off about about how long they wait in hospitals) it's up to the Trusts where they spend the money)) Moving a large perecentage of people out of poverty, getting people back into work etc.

He has done more positives than any Prime minister I can remember, and if anyone mentions Thatcher just think of 3 million unemployed and interest rates at 12%.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

well said stanaccy

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I've been trying to articulate this for months to no avail.
Well said Stanaccy.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I agree with you, but just by accident he was in the right place at the right time, once Thatcher had cleared the decks there was no one in the tory party to fill her boots, so the only way was UP any fool could have done it.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Goodbye Tony,,,,,,i liked you if nobody else did..and Cherie...
You never miss the water till the well runs dry..We will soon see ....

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Absolute and utter claptrap. What about the £12.4 BILLION wasted on an unwanted IT system, which was launched as "Tony's project". Much of that money could have been spent on front-line staff, vital equipment, new hospitals etc, then perhaps those of us who "spout off" wouldn't have to wait so long. Instead, the money has been squandered and much of it has ended up lining the pockets of private companies. And the Trusts had no say whatsoever in that.

Why don't you get your facts right before you come on here "spouting off"?

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

12.4 billion is a hell of alot of money... but not when compared to the untold 100's of billions of north sea oil money that was squanderd, given away to big business and used to prop up the unemployment/social security payouts that a nation with offically more 3 million unemployed and over 7 million cliaming unemplyment related benifits.... A one off windfall of 100's of billions that will never return.
The National Health Service has improved for the first time in living memory.. no doubt about it.. how much it has cost and how much money has been badly allocated is a different matter.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

And that somehow justifies the billions mis-spent in the NHS over the last few years? Same old story from you Blair apologists - you can't justify the present, so let's retreat into the past.

Tony's lot poured a heck of a lot of money into the NHS (raised from our taxes, of course). It presented a great opportunity to really transform the health service...an opportunity that has, to a large part been squandered. Apart from the little matter of the wasted £12.4 billion, so much money has been thrown away on pointless bureacracy, policy initiatives, quangos, committees and all the other gimmickry that is so beloved of this headline-obsessed government. Just ask anyone who actually works in the NHS. If the government had actually thought about how to spend the money wisely on front-line services, instead of blindly rushing from one spin-making stunt to the next, the health service could now be so, so much better. Blair has sold the British people short over this and I, for one, will never forgive him for it. Still, why involve yourself in tiresome arguments about the present, Mancie? Much better to discuss what Thatcher was doing in 1986! :rolleyes:

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

You regard the Tax Credits system as a positive? Do you ever take your rose-tinted glasses off?

Yet again, another of Blair's wasted opportunities. The system was initially conceived to give extra money to the less well-off and motivate people to go back to work - excellent aims. However, 4 years on, it's the same old story - the system is so complex and was so poorly implemented that hundreds of thousands of families have been overpaid to the tune of £4 billion. Naturally, those who received the money genuinely thought they were entitled to it and have spent it. Now, HM Revenue & Customs are chasing those same people for repayments, causing genuine hardship and distress. Still, I suppose those who dare to complain are just "spouting off" and should be grateful to bask in the reflected glory of the Blair era, shouldn't they, Stanaccy?

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I’m with you Wynonie Harris with just one extra point.

Blair’s legacy will be putting the NHS and education into a massive debt for the next 30 years with the PFI and thus keeping the poor service at the current level for that time.

Blair’s future? Maybe he should go to Hollywood and make a film or two. After all he has shown his credentials as an actor for the last 10 years and his farewell speech was pure Hollywood.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

My husband spent 5 weeks in hospital over xmas ,and the service was second to none...
If he had been in America or such , they would have left him to rot,if he wasent insured,,,, you cant call the N,H, S, to me......

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

better nhs better public transport better wages less poverty

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

My happiness and success in life do not depend upon the government.....I have always made quite sure of that.

No government will ever spend your money as wisely as you can and the programs and services they provide are always the most inefficient and costly way to go.

As for Mr. Blair and President Bush......history will be the judge. It is far too early at this point to make a proper evaluation.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Any PM to take Britain into the 21st Century would've had it tough.
The Conservatives left us in a right state & I thoroughly believe that Mr Blair was the most successful Labour PM ever.
Remember the world of Margaret Thatcher, Norman Tebbit, Peter Lilley, John Redwood and Bill Cash. Remember tax cuts for the rich, mass unemployment, soaring child poverty and deep spending cuts that left holes in school roofs and trolleys in hospital corridors. Think of the Section 28 anti-gay law and compare that with civil partnerships now.
That is how far Tony Blair's government has dragged the country in a progressive direction.
He leaves behind a country far better off than he found it - and unimaginably better than it would have been under 10 more years of Conservative rule.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I'm not calling the NHS, my missus works in it and I've been using it quite a bit for one thing and another over the last couple of years. The doctors, surgeons, nurses, technicians, porters and all the other front-line staff are hard-working, dedicated individuals who do their jobs incredibly well, sometimes under difficult conditions.

I am, however, calling this government for its mismanagement and squandering of precious resources in the NHS. Blair had a great opportunity to really transform the NHS and he blew it...and no amount of banging on about events of 20 years ago by the likes of Mancie and Shakey can change that!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Thats the problem, all facts and figures get hidden away under 'security laws' for 25 or 50 years , the truth only starts to come out after the buggers are dead and buried :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blow smoke up Blair's arse, but people are all too easily highlighting the mistakes alone, and not recognising how much good he has done for the country in general.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Wynonie I am not a Blair apologist and I said to me the jury is still out.

I could "spout off" for ages about Pfis, the constant use of EDS in IT by this government which has never worked. The fact he privatised areas of the Public Services that Thatcher could only have fantasised about. I won't because there is a flip side.

He has dragged 70 percent of children out of poverty, he has also pumped a vast amount of money into the NHS whether you agree or not. He has also invested in schools and brought in elected mayors which has been a great success, and yes the tax credits system might need tweaking but at least it has help people into work who were caught in the poverty trap. He has also continued where Major started with Northern Ireland and brought it to a successful conclusion.

As I said earlier if you can name me 1 prime minister in the last 40 years who has INVESTED money in Health, Schools and cut the unemployment figure apart from him then I will say you are talking about France or Germany.

However his foreign policy stinks, Afghanistan, Iraq and his sucking up to Bush is embarassing I thought we were the 51st state in the eighties, but now we have been consumed.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

It was euphoria at chez Silver when Blair,or rather Labour finally got in power.Now we don't honestly give 2 s****.Whats happened to this country since Blairs been leading it has left me in despair,like i was when Thatcher was in control,but back then i was more rebellious & with New Labour i 'd settled into the comfort zone just hoping "things will only get better"...alas it's been the same old sh** only under a different leadership & government.Outlook for the future ....bleak,more Washington & Euro brown(:rolleyes: ) nosing.Almost everyone i talk to wants to emmigrate....fantastic if you've got the funds to do so.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I agree, he has spent vast amounts of money on the NHS but the trouble is, he's spent a large part of it on the wrong things - unworkable IT systems, more bureacracy etc, thus missing a wonderful opportunity to spend that very same money on improving front-line services. And I would suggest that a tax credit system that has overpaid £4 billion in two years, has been defrauded of at least £15 million and has been the subject of a damning report by the Parliamentary Omsbudman needs a little more than "tweaking"!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I agree with you all heartedly ,,,,,,People have short memories ........

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Well, if people do have short memories, they certainly get plenty of reminders on here. Everytime someone dares to criticise Blair, we get the same old stuff about the Thatcher era trotted out with wearying regularity. And why? Because it's easier to talk about what happened 20 years ago, rather than defend the indefensible!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

No,,,that horible woman embedded bitterness in our hearts,,,,,

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

By the way,,i think her daughter Carole is a smashing person,,,,,

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

& every time someone praises Blair for any of his successes we get the same old about the NHS & how the front line could have been better funded. ;)
Not having a pop, but I think we must recognise that the NHS and the country as a whole is a lot better than it was pre-Blair, and we'll be properly up the creek without a paddle when Brown and eventually Cameron get in.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

cant agree shaker that the nhs is better than pre blair, i think there was more staff in the right places then. i'm sure our nhs members will slap me if i'm incorrect.lol

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Considering the lot that came before him, that's not saying much. However, I agree that Cameron is a disaster waiting to happen...although I suppose Cyfr will be along soon to tell us how wrong we are! ;)

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Don't know about anyone else but Mrs H keeps telling me about how she is sick and tired of the endless meetings, meaningless reports and pointless discussions and how she just wants to get back to doing what she came into the NHS to do - treat her patients!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

thats exactly the direction i was heading, i get that from a few of my friends that work in it.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

You are dead right Wynonie, to much time wasted on paperwork and not enough on the patients, not the nurses fault the system is far to top heavy, and to much time has to be spent comprising reports so the powers that be can tell Joe public how well the health service is performing.
As anyone who knows me on this site will tell you, I have had excellent service off the system and my life saved three times, I have also had plenty of time to study it whilst lying helpless in bed for hours on end, during specialists rounds there is an army of hangers on that last aprox half an hour, then the rest of the day you hardly see anyone. There are no juniors or learners there to give you a moment or two distraction from the boredom, and if you are miles from home as I was a week is a long time between visits, the health service is too fragmented and specialist are few and far between, 1 lung specialist for East Lancs one heart specialist etc all at different locations that is the cause of the problem, to many chiefs and not enough Indians. Getting back on thread I repeat my opening statement that speech will judge the man "I did what George Dubya Bush told me to do".

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

No, it has more to do with the passions of the moment having died away. Unpopular decisions made by a political leader in one era may well prove to have been correct some decades down the road when the results are evident and evaluated.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Do you think that the Germans are pondering on that?:rolleyes:

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Pretty obvious to anyone who is paying attention that Bush already has a failed presidency! Matches very well with his no-very-successful business exploits.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I think anyone who pays the least bit of attention can find many, many examples of individuals who find spectacularly unwise ways to spend their money. Check out the Darwin awards some day! Good for a dark bit of himor and a very practical reminder that there are many folks out there who haven't the sense that God gave geese!

And, there are some things the government does well. Highways, universal public education, public libraries, as well as public health initiaitves such as sewage and sanitation, clean water, safe foods, etc. Indeed, a great deal of the improved quality and length of life we enjoy today result from these same public health initiatives. Is government perfect? Of course not (no human system is or ever will be), but certainly some very valuable outcomes.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

[quote=Billcat;423968]I think anyone who pays the least bit of attention can find many, many examples of individuals who find spectacularly unwise ways to spend their money. Check out the Darwin awards some day! Good for a dark bit of himor and a very practical reminder that there are many folks out there who haven't the sense that God gave geese! quote]

There will always be a certain percentage of people who make poor choices. The rest of us should not be forced into the role of enabler.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

[quote=Billcat;423968 And, there are some things the government does well. Highways, universal public education, public libraries, as well as public health initiaitves such as sewage and sanitation, clean water, safe foods, etc. Indeed, a great deal of the improved quality and length of life we enjoy today result from these same public health initiatives. Is government perfect? Of course not (no human system is or ever will be), but certainly some very valuable outcomes.[/quote]

We are not getting full value for our tax dollars no matter how you slice it. These things may have begun with the best of intentions but far too often they go off the rails. For example, our public schools, by and large, are a disaster.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

As a libertarian, I certainly have issues with President Bush. However, one must always look at the larger picture and history may not judge him as harshly as you already have. Ditto for Mr. Blair.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I couldn't have agreed more with you in this thread (until you posted about Cameron anyway ;)).

All too often people look at "What it was like under Thatcher" without looking at the big picture. Look at the economy SHE inhreited, drastic changes needed to take place, and they did, and look at where we are now because of that.

Thatcher/Major built the foundations which Blair/Brown have built upon, just Thatcher had to make the hard decisions which not everyone agreed with so many of you compare now to then. When in reality if it wasn't for her Blair would not have had such great economic foundations to build on, infact he proberbly wouldn't have even become leader of the Labour party.

Because the foundations were so good, and we'd been taken out of a slump, things were on the up, the world not just the UK was in economic growth, he should have used the opporunities to sort out the NHS now that the foundations were set, but he squandered those oppertunities. Anyone including him can bang on about how much investment we have seen, but it means nothing because the performance has not improved in corrolation with the money invested, much of it has been wasted.

Yes the NHS was less funded in the early 90's, yes we had huge waiting times, but the staff could get on with their jobs.

My grandma has been working for the NHS for 50years now (which is a considerable amount of time since the NHS is 59 years old I think), she says it has "never been worse". That speaks volumes from somebody who has been a working class Labour supporter all her life.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

That woman is either loved or hated,,,,,,,I am of the later school...........

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Look, let's break it down:

NHS FUNDS:
1997 - 34bn
2007 - 94bn

Front line staff up by 2.6% (then 1,058,686 & now 1,338,140).

For me, Blair's greatest achievment is Ireland. If you'd have told any Irish person a decade ago that one day Gerry Adams & Ian Paisley would sit down and talk, they would never have believed you.

Of course there's going to be problems but for me he's been great and I hope the next guy continues what Blair started.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

You can look at the figures of investment as much as you want, im not denying theres been almost 3x more money put in to the health service. I'm saying much of it has been wasted, the NHS has become more topdown, more beaurocratic, countless wasted hours meeting/paperwork which is stopping staff from doing their jobs and actually treating people. The money has been wasted, Blair has reined over a decade of missed oppertunities.

Personally i've had an awful NHS experience, and yeah I can be seen by a junior doctor (not consultant) in around 8weeks, but yet 1.5years later I'm still ill and they still dont know what it is. You don't get to see your consultant, and the doctors you do see are trying to meet targets rather than actually getting you better!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

With respect Cyfr, a large amount of people have had a very good experience with the NHS (well, as good as it can get when you're ill) in the last 10 years. My family included in that.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Of course they will, and im not saying those who get seriously ill don't get treatment, they do, and they get it fast. But for moderate things, I mean im not dieing, nothing seems to get done because it has no priority.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

The main fault I have with Blairs health policy and most public service policie are the PFIs or privatisation by another name.

This was started by Thatcher in the late 80s with competitve tendering. It cuts wages and devalues employees, thereby chucking the pride in ones job out the window (hospital cleaners is a prime example).

Shaker is right Northern Ireland will be one of Blair's major successes. As will the shifting of a large percentage of kids out of poverty, maintaining high employment, (Cyfr how you can say Thatcher built a good solid economic base is beyond me, 3 million unemployed, the ruination of the manufacturing base and years of boom and bust is not a solid platform.)

It is a pity that more social policies haven't been produced, tax credits could have been taken further and inclusive housing would help cool down the housing market but I am just an old cynical socialist. (sorry for our American friends read pinko commie liberal bleeding heart)

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

May be he means that it had got down to rock bottom so the only way was up.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Find me an economist and show them the economy Blair inherited and i'll eat my hat if they say it was a weak platform.

She turned us in to a majority service sector which is where the money is, not with manufacturing that can be done much cheaper in countries such as China. 3 million unemployed? If it was up to you we'd still have the mines, we'd be losing money by the day mining expensive coal which we could import much cheaper, and we'd have 3million wasteful jobs rather than ones creating prosperity.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

The mines is only one aspect of the Thatcher era I had major issues with.
In fact a lot of mining areas are still not recovered from the decimation her policies had.

Oh I see service industry ok, 300 folk crammed in a call centre earning minimum wage rather than high paid manufacturing industry, be it mining, steel workers, dockers, car industry given the choice what do you think the individuals concerned would rather do?

With regards to home produced items all things considered it probably is just as competitive to produce them here if you think about the carbon footprint produced.

Funny isn't it even when Thatcher went all people could think about was negatives, just like now. Blair goes and I can think of positives as well as negatives, even though he is an old school tory.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I see lots of positives Blair has done.

How come you mentioned only one type of service sector job and yet listed several manufacturing? Not really a fair balance. Of course it works out better to produce them here because of the carbon footprint, but the majority of people buying goods dont care where its from as long as its cheap, which is what we can't compete with here because we pay too high wages for the products people want compared to the likes of china.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I only mentioned call centres because in most of the old high unemployment areas that is all that opened. To cut down on the high turnover they were getting in the mid nineties in the more competitive South East.

Do you really think it is a coincidence that Orange and Sky have there major call centres in the North East of England and South West Scotland?

Or all the ones in the valleys? The only places that have made a relatively decent fist of recovery are Liverpool, Newcastle and Sheffield. Hmm wonder how many tories are on those councils?

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

These things you mention Cyfr on this subject are things that would have happened regardless of who was the prime minister, mundane everyday civil cervice tasks, put in place to suit the financial climate. This country and the rest of Europe the USA, you name it are no longer or will not be general manufacturing bases. The third world led by the most populated country on earth is awash with cheap labour, no government has control of that situation, Tony Blairs failings undoings call it what you will, were his foreign policies, Iraq, Afganistan etc. Great leaders are judged by history, this man did not learen the lessons of history. How many times have this country had a bloody nose in Afganistan in the last two centuries, the Russians got their backsides kicked as we surely will again. The Yanks never learn, and he followed sheeplike behind. The lesson is young man you can not defeat the will of the people to rule themselves, as the yanks learned to their cost in Vietnam, and will find again in Iraq etc.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Cyfr......one thing to remember about basic economics, service industries contribute absolutley nothing to the "national purse" every tax Pound paid in as income tax by a Civil Servant/Govt employee/teacher/hospital worker/ fireman/street sweeper etc. is just a recycled Pound, previously paid in by a tax payer from an employee of a business that is actually making money (creating something)
let me give you an example .......I work for a company which sells 'widgets' to France and in return the company I work for gives me X Pounds, profits from the products sold from my labour , out of my pay packet I give 20 % to the Govt. as income tax, before I turn over the 20% I mark every note with an X , in due course the X marked note will be given to a public service Govt. employee as a salary , who will in turn pay his/her income tax with the X marked Pound notes as his/her return to the Govt in income tax. ( one of the Pound notes I previously marked with an X) , so how much has the Govt. recieved in tax revenue 1 Pound or 2 ?
maybe a radical idea , but if the folks who recieve monies from the public purse were exempt from paying taxes on their wages (recycled tax monies) we would get a better idea about who is in fact paying for the support of the country and Govt. ...........the workers who actually produce and sell something ,
Seems to me a lot of creative accounting is going on........if every Pound paid in by a genuine (wealth earned) tax payer was marked we could see where the monies end up and how much is recycled bull s++t




p.s. sorry for any reference to Pound notes , my PC is Korean made and only has the $ key

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

[quote=bullseyebarb;424656There will always be a certain percentage of people who make poor choices. The rest of us should not be forced into the role of enabler.[/quote]

Exactly who is enabling what? I don't see the sense in that comment.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Funny, the public schools where I live are quite good. The education I received (and I was hardly alone in this) prepared me to succeed at two of the best universities in the USA.

In any case, if we are not getting full value, how does it follow that the government should do as you advise and cease these activities? Without public schools, road maintenance, garbage hauling, public health initiatives, and the other jobs only the government is equipped to do, you are choosing to live like a third world country. The fortunate thing is that the Libertarian movement makes any other mainstream political party (as messy as they are) look wonderful by comparison. LOL!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I've had a great deal of fun watching Libertarians of late. A remarkably ineffective group, which is about what one would expect from the Libertarians, given their underlying ambivalence about government. My vacation home is in the town of Grafton, NH, which the Free Town Project targeted a couple of years back. For all the big talk, it has been a resounding, massive failure for the Libertarians. BUT - very entertaining, and turning out about how most thinking folks predicted!

Of course, the Free State Project was making big noises about moving enough Libertarians to NH to assert control of the government. Instead, NH voted for Kerry, booted a Libertarian-leaning governor in favor of a Democrat, and kicked out two Republican congressmen.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

What accomplishments does Bush have that will ever improve his standing? Nothing significant. He's gotten us mired in Iraq (just as we were mired in Vietnam), saddled our economy with a crippling load of debt, failed in his goal of permanently eliminating estate taxes, alienated allies, and caused his party to lose control of congress. Not to mention the ineptitude of Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, etc.!

Even some of the most distinguished conservative writers in the USA agree. See the following link: http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_08_28/article9.html

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Our tax dollars via the Welfare State.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I have never belonged to any political party. When I said I was a libertarian, I was referring to the principals of small government, personal liberty and responsibility. As the Founders intended, I prefer each state to be a caldron of experimentation. The federal government has grown entirely out of bounds and much of what it does these days is unconstitutional. Government that is closest to the people - i.e., local and state, works best.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

The feds need to get out of the public school business.

For the amount of money we are spending on them, every school should be top drawer. Alas, this is not the case.....particularly in the inner cities. Why do you suppose home schooling is growing by leaps and bounds? Why are so many parents demanding vouchers so that they can get their kids into better schools? I, too, live in an area with pretty decent schools - but we also have a tremendous amount of parental involvement here. That's key to a better school system.

I am not an anarchist. Government has its role to play, but that role should be a limited one.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I would have thought you'd have been thrilled with "education reform", (No Child Left Behind and all that sort of stuff). Not to mention the Medicare drug bennies. President Bush isn't a conservative, (except in a few areas), which is why conservatives argue about him and write their articles.

How about a roaring economy? Tax cuts - and their resultant gush of revenues to the U.S. Treasury. If only Congress would stop spending so much money, the debt would go down a heck of a lot faster. I believe Congress shares a large part of the blame for the failure to make permanent the elimination of the estate tax. President Bush has not treated global terrorism like a crime to be dealt with by the judiciary. For that I give him credit. But he didn't put us on a war footing - so a minus there.

Not enough time to discuss either Iraq or Viet Nam here. Needless to say, I think you are off on both.

The president did not lose the last election for Republicans. They did a darn good job of doing that for themselves - having forgotten why their voters sent them to Washington in the first place.

I'll give you Gonzales. Nice guy, I'm sure.....but in way over his head.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I heartily agree Wynonie.......that is what nurses are paid to do...treat and care for patients. I left the N.H.S. five years ago and it was in a sorry state then. Too much dancing to the tunes of different politicians...meeting targets for this, having discussions about how we would meet targets for that......not enough staff and resources to care for patients in the way that I had been taught to do.
I went into nursing to nurse patients, not to attend endless (useless) meetings.
I am so glad to have left because my friends tell me it has become much worse.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Well, that response was about as clear as mud.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I was not talking about the Federal government specifically. Many of your libertarian fellow travellers want to stop funding public education altogether. And, I would note, that when confronted about your sweepting generalizations, you suddenly try to narrow the scope. Poor form!

Home schooling is growing, in large part, because there are folks who wish their kids to remain ignorant on certain subjects, such as evolution.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

We are all now speaking with benefit of hindsight, the outcome of these conflicts will be the judge of both Dubya Bush and Tony Blairs foreign policies.As regard to local education and other day to day problems these really are the remit of the appointed ministers and the Mandarins, yes at the end of the day the leader is ultimatley responsible. In my opinion the education system of our country is a shambles, I cannot speak for the USA or any other country. The basic three 'R's are not the primary subjects anymore, the teaching of basic English has first to be taught, as the families of some immigrants cannot, or do not teach their siblings English, but the language of their country of birth. Thus we have a situation where if you are trapped in an area where you are a minority, amongst immigrants through poverty or circumstances your children will be held back whilst the others 'cach up', this time can never be given back as it is to late, the end product is semi illiteracy. I am not a racist this is just common sense, this is why you have 'Ghetto's', a prime example are the two schools where I received my primary education and secondary education, Spring Hill and Hyndburn Park Schools. 99.9% Asian. This has got to be said painfull or not!

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

ianto you shouldnt worry about being branded a racist for airing your concerns about springhill. obviously springhills standards must have been very different in your days as you seem to know your stuff. the problem isnt simply a case of immigrant families not speaking to their children in English.believe me i know that kids in pakistan can speak much better english than the springhill mob. unfortunately a lot kids from aparticular area in pakistan tend to be concentrated in springhill. my uncle says their clan was often joked about in pakistan for being dimwitted . i also went to the mosque with their parents and i felt clever against them and im not bright at all.unfortunately the majority of them are natural born low acheivers. weve got to face facts alot of them are thick. i dont mean to be heartless but it would be hard to improve such a school.
the few intelligent kids suffer educationaly as a resultand are left behind. this happened to my friends son and he often complained that the other kids seemed to have very little ability.he picked up a lot of the poor english from his peers and is poorly educated despite being brighter than most kids.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

thats an interesting thought spinner, if the intelligent kids suffer as yer friends obviously did, whats the answer to this problem? it seems a very difficult one to solve to me.:confused:

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As a child these two schools Spring Hill and Hyndburn Park were the best in Accrington, Peel Park was equally as good, but they had to move on to Secondary Education or Grammar Schools, not forgetting the Technical Schools we had then. The teachers such as the Dean Brothers, Leslie at Hyndburn Park and Brother Jack at Haslingden Secondarry Modern School, were not only good, but they were part of the community and well respected for it. The system was not perfect and in some cases downright unfair, the children that slipped through the 'net' were allowed to go on to Grammer School later, there were always late developers children who's eysight or hearing disabilaty had not been picked up, or the ones that took longer to learn. But one thing I do know is that of all my past schoolmates and friends none were illiterate when leaving school.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

all i know is that any parent whos child has potential should not send their kids to springhill.i would rather educate them at home than at springhill. the so called teaching assistant is hardly articulate. ianto its hard to believe that springhill was a half decent scool, that teaching assistant would not have got that job i those days then.

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It dose no matter now who,s in power i think it will alway,s be the same

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Just to sum it all up. Tony Blair has been the BEST Prime Minister this country has ever had. Or ever will have. Three cheers for Tony Blair. Hip, Hip Hurrah ETC.
Three cheers for our National Health Service. Where would we all be if it was all Private. And all you Tories out there who claim, benefits of any kind JUST THINK HOW LUCKY YOU ARE. Think long and hard. Just where would you be.:banhat:

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That's what I like, penetrating political analysis. :rolleyes:

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All I can say without wasting precious breath which is hard come by these days 'thindle', is how do you arrive at that very profound statement. I for one am dying to know?:confused:

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Should that not be two cheers?

As one of your quoted hips is on a list, waiting for a replacement.:D

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NHo garinda i'm waiting for new ar***e replacement Do you want to stand in till I get one.:D

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Are you in BUPA?

Send me your credit card details, and I'm yours.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I'm in the system gary and I am anybody's, I had that lovely lady from the NHS round this morning, What a nice person ,she was called a disabilaty assesment person 'I think' the gear arrives tomorrow, no need for BUPA they can't hold a candle to our Health Service, waste of money in my humble opinion.:cool:

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

i,ll second that a complete waste of money.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Well since you are happy with the NHS, and refuse to pay the going rate, I'm unable to be your arsehole.;):D

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When The'll have me gary I'll have them. I cant even get holiday insurance never mind BUPA.;) :D

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

No, but I was......as I believe my previous comments made perfectly clear.

Your take on home schooling is way behind the times. Initially, it was parents of strong religious conviction who chose this method of education. Nowadays, it's across the board. And if you'd bother to check, you would find that home schooled kids test extremely well and are better prepared for college.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I agree with you, Ian. But with or without the immigration question, the schools are still not offering the same sort of rigorous education that you and I received. My sister, who teaches in the Midlands, is retiring in July after more than 30 years. All of the joy of teaching went by the wayside some time ago and she has had more than enough. She is not alone. The system is losing so many of it's good, well trained people.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

its true some of the so called teachers that i know are very poorly educated and thick too. one teacher i know failed her gcses several times and had to retake her maths gcse 4 times! she needed the maths gcse to indicate she did have some sort of brain. it was essential to the teaching course. did they bother that she had to retake it so many times to pass? nocause they know people just dont want to teach anymore so the half wits are left to take the jobs.

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In fact you need more qualifications to teach today then you ever did in the past. You are right, you do need GSCE Maths, but you also need a degree, ot a post-grad teaching qualification, to enter the profession. Something that wasn't prerequisite in the past.

Miss Moore, former Head of Rhyddings didn't have a degree.;)

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

And I'll bet Miss Moore was better educated! If what my sister says is true about the current crop of incoming teachers, perhaps the standards at teachers' training colleges have been lowered significantly. The newbies at her school apparently leave a lot to be desired.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

As you all know life is not about pieces of paper that proffess what or what not you are capable of, it is a hands on profession, some can and some cant do and undo the nuts and bolts, but have the paper work that say they can. All I know is that teaching used to be like the legal profession sons/ daughters followed fathers/mothers into the job thus already forearmed with what and how to handle a class of students. Children then were just as unruly and mischeavous in my day as they are now nothing changes human nature, I mighn't just add that the classes were well in excess of 40 as there was a population boom after WW2, so there is really no excuse for illiteracy with todays school leavers.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

According to my mum the majority of teachers at Rhyddings in the 1950's, were a collection of numskulls and perverts. Happily that is not the case today.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Your mother's opinions, along with those of my sister, are purely anecdotal. The proof is in the pudding. Which generation was better educated and more prepared for life? Time will tell.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Right I've had of enough of this.

Education went downhill in the mid 80s when they got rid of 'O' levels. GCSEs in whatever the f**k, do not count as a qualification, this was not Labour it was the tories wanting to get more folk through the exams. Which I assume ha something to do with making the benchmark fixed every year rather than a floating one so only x%got A's or passed etc.

Labour just arsed about with 'A' Levels in the same way. Mind you considering some of the gits who are at school at the moment the teachers deserve a medal not a slating.

Oh one thing Bullseyebarb, which generation brought up the previous 20 years of schoolchildren that you are moaning about?

And as for the libertarian thinking I'd rather live here and pay my taxes and be guaranteed a place in hospital if any of my family were ill than have to choose between insurance or feeding my kids.

You may hate the state but looking at over there and the freedom to shoot up schools, universities and shooping centres (oops sorry bear arms) and over here where it is illegal - the choice doesn't really take much consideration.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Not moaning. Merely making an observation, along with others of like mind. If you are happy with the current state of education, then there is no problem, is there?

Your knowledge of the U.S. health system is clearly influenced by what you read and see on t.v. Believe it or not, people without insurance or ability to pay are admitted to hospitals every day. They must receive treatment. It is the law. We do in fact have many more choices than in England. I would not trade with you for anything.

Please attempt to be rational. Law abiding gun owners, (the majority), are not the problem here. Kindly do not try to obfuscate the issue.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I am not confusing the issue I am stating a fact, guns kill! the only reason for owning a gun is to KILL!! be you 'law abiding' or a serial killer. The self defence argument is cr*p, if that is the case why own 97 different guns including M16s.

There are more murders per capita in the US than any other country in the western world, hmm wonder why?

Also, yes you may be treated in a hospital and your life saved but then you are in incredible debt. The republicans also vetoed Clinton's bill to make healthcare affordable for all? Why give me an argument against that?

I am not saying I was happy I am happy with the state of education (note how you picked bits you like from my statement) I was basically saying that you feel that education was better in the fifties/sixties, aren't they the ones responsible for bringing up the children who became the delinquents of the 80s and nineties?

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

No, guns don't kill. Individuals do.

Some people like to collect guns. I see nothing wrong with that.

Has your inability to defend yourselves actually made you safer? I think not, if many of the comments on this web site are anything to go by.

As I have already remarked on a previous occasion.....the vast majority of Americans lead lives of great tranquility.

I assume you are referring to Hillary Clinton's proposal for healthcare? Once the American people saw what it actually entailed they were calling and writing their reps in Congress in a flash. It wasn't just Republicans who voted against that abomination.

Well, what is it? Better or worse education now. I think it's worse.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

You are right in my opinion 'Barb' on this educational issue, the number of times I have been in shops, and had to tell the assistant how much change was required when the till was not working, and yet today's Decimal System is far simpler from the old Imperial System that we and our forebears had to cope with.
Today's and by todays school leavers, I include all those who were educated after the Grammar School system was 'butchered' and no I was not clever enough to go, as at the time my education had suffered as a result of wartime and postwar scarcety and moving about, as my Father was a regular in the Royal Airforce. The system allowed for late developers, there was not the distraction of television and other visual playthings that are the cause of illiteracy today plus as 'Barb' rightly points out a poor standard of teachers, which in my opinion will only get worse as the educational standards are dropped annualy.

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

Thanks, Ian.

My sister tells me that the curriculum is such nowadays that there is not enough time given to thoroughly address the essentials......reading, writing, mathematics, history, geography, etc., And the paperwork the teachers have to endure! Why did the government decide to change the old tried and true methods?

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

All enquires to the most radical, and reforming of all post War Education Ministers-

The Rt. Hon. The Baroness Thatcher (SC)
Chester Square
Belgravia
London SW1
England

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

You wrote her full title, how cute :o

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

She was impressed with my impecable manners, and attention to detail and protocol, when we had dinner together, as I think I've told you before.;):D

Re: Tony Blair Mark Two.
 

I only know one thing, only history tells us where we/they whoever had to make the fatefull decisions at the time made mistakes, speaking now with the benefit of hindsight it is easy to apportion blame. What disturbs me is that the powers that be will never be allowed to rectify the mistake, as the educational standards are no longer required in this electronically assisted age. The sad fact is that many of our youth have lost the ability to think for themselves, what new barriers are now going to be crossed and at what cost?