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Margaret Pilkington 11-07-2007 19:53

40 years.
 
So the 21/7 bombers were found guilty....and sentenced to 40 years in jail.
I will probably be shot down in flames for saying this...but do you think that we, the tax payer should fund their lives in prison for the next 40 years....bearing in mind, that we will also probably be picking up the social welfare costs for the families of these would-be murderers.
OK......I know their families haven't done anything wrong (allegedly) but shouldn't they have considered this before they hooked up to Al Qaeda?
Would it not be better to revoke the passports and visas of these people and ship them back to their country of origin and let them take their chances in the jails there?

SPUGGIE J 11-07-2007 20:08

Re: 40 years.
 
Ship em to a middle east jail for forty years. Sadley though A/Q might spring em anyway. Send em to Peterhead Prison its the best place I can think for them. :cool:

WillowTheWhisp 11-07-2007 20:38

Re: 40 years.
 
If they were deported wouldn't they be greeted as heroes?

Margaret Pilkington 11-07-2007 20:47

Re: 40 years.
 
Whether they would or not, they would no longer be a burden on the tax payer........and if they were to be jailed in their own countries, I am sure they would have a tougher life......one of these guys sought asylum from Somalia and another one was from Eritrea.....both of these countries have been scarred by war and famine......they come here and sponge off the British population and then they plot to blow their host country up.
I am not too bothered where they go......as long as they don't let them back in again.

West Ender 11-07-2007 20:48

Re: 40 years.
 
I totally agree with you, Margaret. They want us all dead but we have to support them and their families. There's something very wrong there.

What irks me most is that they, and all prisoners these days, are deprived of their freedom but not much else. Instead of keeping them locked up with only the telly and various recreations, studies etc. at their disposal, they should be made to work - on chain gangs if necessary. Make them earn their keep, in prison, and earn enough to keep their families too. If they don't work - they don't eat.

Margaret Pilkington 11-07-2007 20:55

Re: 40 years.
 
Well my opinion of the sentences is that they do not get what they deserve.

It appears to me that in prison, although deprived of their freedom, and maybe made to spend long periods of time in their cells, they have no worries about how they are going to pay for their heating, lighting or food....they will have the opportunites to study........even to do a degree if that is what they want (you and me would have to pay something in the region os £3000/year if we wanted to do that) they will have their medical needsand dental needs sorted......not for them the trail around to find a dentist on the NHS....they will have the freedom to worship,and their religious needs will be catered for.
In short, they will be treated better than a lot of our old age pensioners who fought in wars to ensure that these reprobates had the freedom to try to annihilate us

cashman 11-07-2007 20:58

Re: 40 years.
 
Totally agree, though doubt the human rights brigade would, what these fools forget is the human rights of the peaceful population:confused:,hardworking and peaceful immigrants, seem to bear the brunt of what these lunatics do,in the way of mistrust and anger,so i cant imagine those people being too bothered about this?

Margaret Pilkington 11-07-2007 21:03

Re: 40 years.
 
the other thing that needs to be borne in mind is that while these guys are incarcerated in prison, they still have access to the hearts and minds of other young muslim men......what is to stop them radicalising these young men? So that when they are released from prison, they can carry on the work of the failed bombers. It is like cutting the head off the Hydra....cut one off and another seven grow.

SPUGGIE J 11-07-2007 21:05

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp (Post 447440)
If they were deported wouldn't they be greeted as heroes?

Would they though as suicide bombers are ment to die with their intendid victims? The way the system works here they could be released early dispite what the judge and Mr n Mrs Public and their children want. It should be a case of no min sentance and they should be allowed to die there. Then that throws up a weed or two as someone would claim it is inhumane and they could be reabilitated. A very very tightly packed minefield this one.

Margaret Pilkington 11-07-2007 21:10

Re: 40 years.
 
I don't believe there is any chance of rehabilitating a suicide bomber.
I think that in their case life must mean to the end of their natural lives....though there doubtless will be some human rights lawyer who will fight for them to get paroled.

davo69 11-07-2007 21:12

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 447427)
So the 21/7 bombers were found guilty....and sentenced to 40 years in jail.
I will probably be shot down in flames for saying this...but do you think that we, the tax payer should fund their lives in prison for the next 40 years....bearing in mind, that we will also probably be picking up the social welfare costs for the families of these would-be murderers.
OK......I know their families haven't done anything wrong (allegedly) but shouldn't they have considered this before they hooked up to Al Qaeda?
Would it not be better to revoke the passports and visas of these people and ship them back to their country of origin and let them take their chances in the jails there?

well got to say you are spot on with this

Eric 11-07-2007 21:15

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 447427)
So the 21/7 bombers were found guilty....and sentenced to 40 years in jail.
I will probably be shot down in flames for saying this...but do you think that we, the tax payer should fund their lives in prison for the next 40 years....bearing in mind, that we will also probably be picking up the social welfare costs for the families of these would-be murderers.
OK......I know their families haven't done anything wrong (allegedly) but shouldn't they have considered this before they hooked up to Al Qaeda?
Would it not be better to revoke the passports and visas of these people and ship them back to their country of origin and let them take their chances in the jails there?

Sorry ... don't agree. Don't become like them; if you do then, in a sense, they have won. They have put themselves beyond humanity; I think that it is a mistake to join them. One of the more frustrating things about living in a democracy, under the rule of law, is that one has, fom time to time, to swallow the urge for vengence. "I will probably be shot down in flames for saying this."

cashman 11-07-2007 21:17

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 447467)
Sorry ... don't agree. Don't become like them; if you do then, in a sense, they have won. They have put themselves beyond humanity; I think that it is a mistake to join them. One of the more frustrating things about living in a democracy, under the rule of law, is that one has, fom time to time, to swallow the urge for vengence. "I will probably be shot down in flames for saying this."

ya may think again if they kick off in canada eric?

West Ender 11-07-2007 21:26

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 447467)
Sorry ... don't agree. Don't become like them; if you do then, in a sense, they have won. They have put themselves beyond humanity; I think that it is a mistake to join them. One of the more frustrating things about living in a democracy, under the rule of law, is that one has, fom time to time, to swallow the urge for vengence. "I will probably be shot down in flames for saying this."

What would you have us do? Pat them on the head and tell them not to do it again?

To quote the Bible, "If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out."

Eric 11-07-2007 21:27

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman (Post 447468)
ya may think again if they kick off in canada eric?

Yup ... I know what you mean ... but I do hope that it wouldn't change my opinion ... scary thing is I'm not sure. The closest thing we have had is the Air India bombing that took place in the 80s. But I still believe that facing this kind of attack one has to hold the moral high ground. And I did think about your point as I was typing my response.

davo69 11-07-2007 21:32

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 447467)
Sorry ... don't agree. Don't become like them; if you do then, in a sense, they have won. They have put themselves beyond humanity; I think that it is a mistake to join them. One of the more frustrating things about living in a democracy, under the rule of law, is that one has, fom time to time, to swallow the urge for vengence. "I will probably be shot down in flames for saying this."

what a lot of crap

Wynonie Harris 11-07-2007 21:33

Re: 40 years.
 
Must say I don't agree with you, Eric. They wanted to indiscriminately inflict death and destruction on innocent people, white and black, native-born and immigrant, muslim and non-muslim. All that we are suggesting is locking them up for the rest of their natural lives in harsh conditions and making them earn their keep. Don't really think, therefore, that we are lowering ourselves to their level.

However, fair play to you, you've expressed your views in a reasonable fashion, unlike others with similar beliefs who have tried to impose their views in a self-righteous, holier-than-thou fashion on this forum.

SPUGGIE J 11-07-2007 21:33

Re: 40 years.
 
This is one of those issues that can be so imotive it is going to be a heated thread. Dosnt matter whether they get sent home or stay in the pokey . As Eric says "Don't become like them; if you do then, in a sense, they have won." That would be the ultimate failure on our part.

Margaret Pilkington 11-07-2007 21:35

Re: 40 years.
 
Eric, it isn't vengeance.....it is economic sense. I am not sure exactly how much it costs to keep a man in prison, but I know it is a lot......It really grieves me when I know that these people are enjoying better food with no worries as to how it is paid for, than some of our pensioners......and that through any winter they will not have the worries of paying for their heating bill....and to add insult to injury, not only will we be funding this lifestyle for the failed bombers but also that of their dependants.
And as i said while they are locked up they have the opportunity to poison the minds of other young muslim men....so their escapade may have failed at this attempt, but who is to say that they will not teach many other muslim men how to do a better job next time.

They came into this country because they cited atrocities in their own countries......they came as asylum seekers. One of them was convicted of petty crime and muggings and then was sent to prison....where we are told, that he was 'radicalised'.......he did drugs(allegedly) drank(allegedly) and then becomes a muslim jihadist.
No they should be sent back to the country of origin......and incarcerated there.

Margaret Pilkington 11-07-2007 21:40

Re: 40 years.
 
I think we have to get the message across to people that if you are going to do bad things then expect bad things to happen to you too.
There appears to be no correlation between action and consequences....and wrong doers have to accept that there will be consequences.
And nowhere have I advocated that we do not follow what the law allows......I just think that in such circumstances there should be the possibility of revoking passports and visas and deporting people to the land of their origin or even ancestors.

Margaret Pilkington 11-07-2007 21:42

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J (Post 447484)
This is one of those issues that can be so imotive it is going to be a heated thread. Dosnt matter whether they get sent home or stay in the pokey . As Eric says "Don't become like them; if you do then, in a sense, they have won." That would be the ultimate failure on our part.


I didn't post the question so that it would become a heated argument, but that it would promote a healthy mature debate......even though the subject matter could be seen as emotive.

davo69 11-07-2007 21:42

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington (Post 447488)
I think we have to get the message across to people that if you are going to do bad things then expect bad things to happen to you too.
There appears to be no correlation between action and consequences....and wrong doers have to accept that there will be consequences.
And nowhere have I advocated that we do not follow what the law allows......I just think that in such circumstances there should be the possibility of revoking passports and visas and deporting people to the land of their origin or even ancestors.

well said well said

LancYorkYankee 11-07-2007 21:51

Re: 40 years.
 
I may be the lone voice here but I believe anyone found guilty of treason or terrorist acts should face the death sentence!

A question though: Are these guys put in with the general prison population? Wouldn't they "take care of them" as they would child molestors and such?

THIS IS MEANT AS A JOKE: Maybe our American Criminals are more morally righteous. They would assuredly put these scumbags out of our misery and make the prison yard a happier place!:rolleyes:

Brian

cashman 11-07-2007 21:53

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris (Post 447482)
Must say I don't agree with you, Eric. They wanted to indiscriminately inflict death and destruction on innocent people, white and black, native-born and immigrant, muslim and non-muslim. All that we are suggesting is locking them up for the rest of their natural lives in harsh conditions and making them earn their keep. Don't really think, therefore, that we are lowering ourselves to their level.

However, fair play to you, you've expressed your views in a reasonable fashion, unlike others with similar beliefs who have tried to impose their views in a self-righteous, holier-than-thou fashion on this forum.

that was exactly the reason i just asked a straightforward question i respected the way the view was put forward, although i vehemently disagree.;) well done eric.

Royboy39 11-07-2007 21:55

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric (Post 447467)
Sorry ... don't agree. Don't become like them; if you do then, in a sense, they have won. They have put themselves beyond humanity; I think that it is a mistake to join them. One of the more frustrating things about living in a democracy, under the rule of law, is that one has, fom time to time, to swallow the urge for vengence. "I will probably be shot down in flames for saying this."

Ok one question.......would you be prepared to fund the incarceration at your expense in Canada. It can be arranged, I will speak to Gordon...would you be prepared to fund these clowns for forty years taking funds from the public purse when life saving drugs are denied to law abiding citizens in your country?

WillowTheWhisp 11-07-2007 22:09

Re: 40 years.
 
They were given sanctuary here from danger in their own native countries. Their thanks for that was to plot to destroy the country which took them in. How should we treat them? How can it be vengeance to seek to protect ourselves and our children? It's not vengeance, it's common sense. Self preservation doesn't bring us down to their level. Far from it.

Yes Margaret you are probably right that failed suicide bombers wouldn't be regarded as such heroes.

It just doesn't seem right that innocent people should be deprived of medical attention and drugs whilst these convicted criminals will get the best medical care in prison, no bills to pay, no worries all at tax payers' expense. Priorities a bit skewed there somewhere.

Wynonie Harris 11-07-2007 22:19

Re: 40 years.
 
There is one overriding reason why they will not be deported. Because this present government refuses to deport anyone, no matter what their crime, to their country of origin, if it is considered that they may face danger there. Perhaps, the government's representative on this forum, Greg Pope, would care to tell us why?

garinda 11-07-2007 22:33

Re: 40 years.
 
If they end up in Belmarsh prison, which a lot of them do, they'll have a fine old time, and all at our expense.

EXCLUSIVE: THE JAIL RUN BY AL-QAEDA - News - Mirror.co.uk

Eric 12-07-2007 00:03

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Royboy39 (Post 447493)
Ok one question.......would you be prepared to fund the incarceration at your expense in Canada. It can be arranged, I will speak to Gordon...would you be prepared to fund these clowns for forty years taking funds from the public purse when life saving drugs are denied to law abiding citizens in your country?

Unfortunately in Canada they would have to serve only 25 years. Some muslims were held for a while in a special facility at Millhaven pen on suspiscion of being linked to terrorist groups. But the Supreme Court upheld their right not to be incarcerated without trial. But I still hold to my opinion .... altho' not to the point of causing a fuss about it. But I do know that in democratic countries, the rights of all citizens, even the ones that are a complete waste of skin, must be protected, and the rule of law must be followed ... or else there is no real point to it all. Those who want to rule by rant and whim and prejudice will have a foot in the door. The recent fuss south of the border about prisoners at Gitmo offends a lot of Americans, but that's democracy at work. Sometimes it aint pretty, but it's the best we have ... it's really all that stands between us and chaos.

Maybe I'm and idealist, but I'm comfortable with that.

b.joel 12-07-2007 11:20

Re: 40 years.
 
The reasons these people give for trying to inflict these atrocities on us is that we are killing their muslim brothers and sisters in Iraq and Afghanistan. Muslims are killing each other every day in both these countries, so to me its just a poor pretence at trying to justify pure evil, end of.

mrjdallen 12-07-2007 11:39

Re: 40 years.
 
how many years will be til they are let out - for good behaviour

SPUGGIE J 12-07-2007 11:53

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrjdallen (Post 447636)
how many years will be til they are let out - for good behaviour


With a lily livered PC mad do gooder who has been brainwashed into believing they are reabilitated and have learned their lesson I would say ten years.

Margaret Pilkington 12-07-2007 12:44

Re: 40 years.
 
No, a report in my paper today says that the minimum sentence is 40 years.....so we will all be paying for these would be murderers to live at our expense for that length of time.

jambutty 12-07-2007 14:17

Re: 40 years.
 
Unfortunately all those people who supported the “Human Rights For All” brigade are now reaping what they have sown, which is why we have prisoners living better than the majority of pensioners and people on low incomes.

It is high time that the UK government decreed that anyone who is meted out a prison sentence loses all human rights except those relating to humane treatment.

The prisoner should serve the full term that is dished out and not be let out early because of prison overcrowding.

Stop getting involved in hair brained schemes (ID cards, IT systems that don’t work etc.) and funding illegal wars and use the money to build more prisons and train staff to man them.

As someone has already mentioned, make the prisoners work and pay them so that the money can be used to keep their families and thus reduce the burden on the state.

I read somewhere (on this forum I think) that someone mentioned (probably tongue in cheek) the best work would be to make prisoners operate a treadmill to generate electricity. One hour on, one hour off for 16 hours a day. Make them work so hard that they will be too tired to even think about doing anything nasty, let alone make plans.

What about operating a laundry for hospital and care homes linen? There is nothing like a hot steamy atmosphere for sapping the strength. What about separating re-cyclable waste from all the trash that we get rid of? Saving the local authorities and us from having to do so.

The moral high ground Eric is a fat load of use as your wife and kids lie at your feet in pieces.

LancYorkYankee 12-07-2007 14:55

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee (Post 447491)
I may be the lone voice here but I believe anyone found guilty of treason or terrorist acts should face the death sentence!

A question though: Are these guys put in with the general prison population? Wouldn't they "take care of them" as they would child molestors and such?

THIS IS MEANT AS A JOKE: Maybe our American Criminals are more morally righteous. They would assuredly put these scumbags out of our misery and make the prison yard a happier place!:rolleyes:

Brian

Sorry to quote myself but I haven't seen an answer to my question. Wouldn't the other prisoners seek their own kind of justice on these guys or will they be away from the general population?

Thanks for any guidance here!

Brian

Royboy39 12-07-2007 15:08

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee (Post 447717)
Sorry to quote myself but I haven't seen an answer to my question. Wouldn't the other prisoners seek their own kind of justice on these guys or will they be away from the general population?

Thanks for any guidance here!

Brian

Segregation is a must for these guys I would say.

Eric 12-07-2007 15:27

Re: 40 years.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee (Post 447717)
Sorry to quote myself but I haven't seen an answer to my question. Wouldn't the other prisoners seek their own kind of justice on these guys or will they be away from the general population?

Thanks for any guidance here!

Brian

I think that all prison communities have their own "moral" structures ... certain crimes are OK and others, rape, child molesting, etc., are not. These guys would not last in general population.

cashman 12-07-2007 15:32

Re: 40 years.
 
as ive said before,was under the impression robin reid (shoe bomber) was converted in prison? if thats the case segregation is not sucessful.

Tealeaf 12-07-2007 16:19

Re: 40 years.
 
Two things are likely to happen:-

Firstly, at some point in the future, somewhere in the world a group of terrorists will sieze hostages and will then demand that the 21/7 four be released and flown to a safe haven. I don't know what the outcome of that will be.

However, I am certain of a second event. About two years from now, lawyers acting for these four (and financed by the taxpayers) will put an appeal in the courts that the basis of their conviction was unsound. It will probably be thrown out, but within another year or so a second appeal will be made. New evidence will no doubt come to light and there will probably be questions raised over police procedures. Their conviction will be found to be a gross miscarriage of justice and they will be immeadiatly released. They will each then receive compensation of several million pounds for the trauma they have undergone.

Will anyone bet on me being wrong?

jambutty 12-07-2007 16:44

Re: 40 years.
 
Sounds about right to me but then we have only ourselves to blame for allowing our Parliamentary representatives to sign up to the Human Rights thing and not exclude lawfully imprisoned prisoners.


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